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Sustainability and the left

 
  

Page: 123(4)

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:43 / 10.05.07
Um, I don't even own a first house anywhere but that's going too far. Hatred of wealth does not equal socialism.

OK, so let's see what you did there. First up, there's that "um". This is a bad tool, for reasons which are hopefully already and abundantly clear. Then there is the part where you quote and respond to nothing in the post except the throwaway line. That's poor form, also.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the response does not have a connection to what was actually said. a) Because I never claimed to be a socialist, or to wish to partake in socialism and b) because at no point did I say that I hated wealth, but rather people with second homes in France - that is, people who have used their wealth in a way that both encourages unnecessary damage to the environment and also damage to local communities and affordable housing in France. I think that you have allowed your own issues to affect what you read.
 
 
jmw
14:42 / 10.05.07
You are criticising my rhetorical style after calling people who've bought a second home abroad as "piece[s] of filth"? How throwaway was your remark? Not as throwaway as you'd have me think, I suspect.

Your reference to Eurostar is parochial and chauvinistic. We're not all British, you know. Some of us live on other European islands that are not served by undersea rail links. The ferry is acceptable but it's a very long journey from here to there. Not a problem if you own a house and are simply going over to spend time relaxing, but not so good if you're, for example, self-employed and going over for work reasons.

True enough you didn't state that you wanted anything to do with socialism, so that's a fair criticism of my post. Nevertheless, you have exhibited exactly the kind of punitive attitude toward consumption that environmentalism's critics on the right mislabel as socialism, so excuse me for feeling aggrieved. I think the conflation of environmentalism and socialism does neither side any favours.

Please tell me all you know about the situation regarding affordable housing in France. I'm all ears.

Oh yes, and, see what you did there. First up, there's the condescending tone. This is a bad tool, for reasons which are hopefully already and abundantly clear. The there is the part where you spend time excoriating my throwaway use of language and respond to nothing of substance in the post. That's poor form, also.

For what little it is worth, I started the sentence with the jocular expresion in order to lighten it. Amazing how so much of this thread is taken up with pointless criticism of language.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:19 / 10.05.07
How do you feel about redistribution of wealth, jmw? I've always understood this as a basic principle of the left, for as long as one lives in a society in which there is inequality and the poorest suffer. But I can't help but suspect this might be too punitive, anti-wealth and anti-consumption for you - do you just believe in the magic of trickledown via the market?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:28 / 10.05.07
True enough you didn't state that you wanted anything to do with socialism, so that's a fair criticism of my post. Nevertheless, you have exhibited exactly the kind of punitive attitude toward consumption that environmentalism's critics on the right mislabel as socialism, so excuse me for feeling aggrieved. I think the conflation of environmentalism and socialism does neither side any favours.

Well, no, I won't excuse you, because thatwould be silly. You made up something I didn't say in your imagination, and then made up some people who mislabel that thing I didn't say as socialism, also in your imagination, and so on. That has nothing to do with anything I said, so I don't feel in any way inclined to excuse you, not for feeling aggrieved, which is entirely your choice, but for making that series of weird leaps to justify your apparently aggrieved response. I am not responsible for your imagination, so I cannot excuse what it leads you to do.

On your current performance in this thread, I don't imagine that many environmentalists would like to have you grouped with them, but I also don't think there's any particular danger of that happening. I'd be a little surprised if you were mistaken for a socialist, much less an environmentalist.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:10 / 10.05.07
So, back to basics. It seems to me that there are a couple of core statements at the core of the form of Socialism (Marxist Socialism, apparently) jmw is advancing here:

1) This form of socialism demands that workers live a free life and are productive.
2) For jmw, this means having at the very least the current standard of living of a Western European.
3) It is imperialism to prevent people in Africa or Asia, who have currently not got that standard of living, from pursuing and getting it.
4) The only way to have that minimum-acceptable standard of living is to live as people in Western Europe do.
5) It is not possible to have the minimum acceptable standard of living without behaving in ways that upset environmentalists.
6) Therefore, upsetting environmentalists is the least negative consequence, and therefore the one to be adopted rather than seeking to find a standard of living that would allow those living in the various parts of the Earth to live sustainably, or at least as our current science can pin down what might be meant by "sustainably", in terms of water usage, carbon production &c.

Of course, another consequence might be the destruction of the conditions under which the Earth is inhabitable. Which is a bit of a problem, because.

7) At present, the industrialised nations of the north and west pump out a lot more pollution per person than the less industrialised nations of the south and east (roughly and clumsily grouped)
8) Therefore, inasmuch as climate change is affected by human activity, much of that activity is from people maintaining the minimum-acceptable standard of living defined by jmw.
9) Further, climate change is disproportionately killing and damaging the people and the economies of nations in the south and east.
10) So... by rejecting the idea that _anyone_ should not live not only at the level of Western Europeans but also in the way that Western Europeans do, and therefore that there is no need to chhange one's own behaviour, as one has the minimum acceptable standard of living, one is actually agreeing to kill people and damage economies in the south and east.

Now, things get a bit complex there, because:

11) Not entirely surprisingly, a nation's chances of getting to that minimum acceptable standard of living are reduced significantly if its people are being killed and its economy damaged by climate change.

12) One therefore gets into a slightly odd situation where by advancing and behaving according to the principle that everyone should be entitled to live in a resource-intensive way, one is actally potentially reducing the chances of those whose prevention from doing so would be imperialism from doing so, in the name of anti-imperialism.

This sounds confusing, but possibly isn't - the message may be that ideology is actually more important than practicality at this point - it's important to behave as if this standard of living were the right of all workers, even if by doing so in fact you are taking it further away from other workers. There's a Kantian vibe to this approach which might dovetail quite nicely with a Marxist critique - that as an individual, since your personal impact on the environment is miniscule, you should instead behave in a principled way - in this case by being free and productive, which is represented by the current lifestyle, and the current methods employed to get it, of a Western European worker.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
19:44 / 10.05.07
It's not just people in the South&East of the world that are affected- look at New Orleans. There we have a first-world city leveled by a powerful hurricane that scientists say will become more common in all parts of the world (admittedly moreso in the less-developed South&East) as global warming increases. The victims were disproportionately working class- the very people Marxist politics attempts to uplift to a higher standard of living. Hurricanes, sea-level rises, forest fires, soil erosion and the rest don't particularly care if you're living in a Capitalist Oligarchy or Socialist Utopia- one may have better systems in place for clearing up the mess afterwards, but it's a band-aid on a cancer patient when the possible extinction of the human species is involved- and the best science on the subject says that it will be, sooner or later. If you'd like the attitude of myself and others on this thread expressed in an easy little soundbite, then it'd be 'Better lean and Green than Red and dead'.

Let's think about this another way- let's say that we aren't talking about the sustainability of the human environment but the sustainability of the human body and, in this context, let's say you have a friend who is a decadent libertine- think Caligula meets Led Zep' on tour with a dash of Vegas-era Elvis. Your friend's concern isn't increasing the happiness of the human race as through Marxism, but increasing their own happiness through sex, drugs, smoking, booze and food in quantities that everybody qualified to make a judgment says will kill him sooner or later. Even though one may believe in the sovereignty of the individual and their right to decide their own fate, if you had the opportunity to stop your friend before they ended up dead of AIDs/Cancer/an overdose etc. through an intervention/rehab etc. wouldn't you do it? You'd be a crappy friend if you didn't, right? So why believe the opposite on a global scale? Why privilege the global hedonism of over-indulging in the natural environment (continuing our current state of consumption would be doing just that, increasing our level of consumption would be proportionally worse) over the individual hedonism of personal over-indulgence?
 
 
diz
22:25 / 10.05.07
So why believe the opposite on a global scale?

Because it's not an appropriate analogy for any number of reasons. We're a lot closer to being able to binge in a way that's environmentally sustainable than we are to being able to convince the world to practice self-restraint, for one thing.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
10:44 / 11.05.07
True, but that isn't what JMW is talking about here. As ze says in hir first post: "(sustainability) seems to indicate significantly lowered horizons... I don't want to be 'sustainable', I want to live a free life and be productive." Ze's set up a dichotomy here: you can be lean 'n' green, which is bad, or red and productive, which is good (until everybody dies). My post above was intended to show how if one transposes the rules of the world as JMW sees them (not necessarily as they are) onto something else it becomes counter-intuitive, so a better way of looking at the sustainability/productivity problem is needed.
 
 
diz
14:28 / 11.05.07
Oh, OK, I misunderstood your position.
 
 
Quantum
12:59 / 29.05.07
Ultimately, I'd like to see airships crossing the Atlantic (Haus, last page)

Helluva yeah. That's one thing I constantly come back to, and if it weren't for the Hindenberg and that other disaster we'd be living in a world where that was normal. Darn it.
Anyway, I just wanted to mention on the subject of flying and how bad it is for the environment, that it's a bit of a red herring environmentally speaking.

One day's deforestation is equivalent to the carbon footprint of eight million people flying to New York.
Tropical deforestation now accounts for about 20 percent of all human-caused carbon dioxide emissions each year. Air travel is about 3%.
 
 
predius
02:34 / 30.05.07
Helluva yeah. That's one thing I constantly come back to, and if it weren't for the Hindenberg and that other disaster we'd be living in a world where that was normal. Darn it.

Would it be very useful? You know, with the whole going reaaaa[...]aally slowly?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:02 / 30.05.07
Well, consider how far aeroplances have developed since the 1930s. With the same capital investment, why would airships go really slowly? Let's say you can get an airship up to 250 knots. That's much slower than an aeroplane, but you can take shorter routes - as far as I know, airships did not arc around Newfoundland to get from London to New York, for example.

However, ultimately it probably wouldn't be useful if you wanted to get from London to New York in seven hours and didn't care how you did it, no. You would need to adjust your expectations, or pay extra for faster travel.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
20:08 / 30.05.07
Moving on, Tto deny that there has been a deeply romantic, anti-human streak in environmental thinking, (CONSERVATionism, as it was called up until the 1960s) is to deny the facts. Read Ecofascism: Lessons from the German experience, by Biehl and Staudenmaier or look at Green Anarchist, Alternative Green and Richard Hunt, Patrick Harrington and the "Third Way" or so-called National Anarchism - green fascism.

Sorry, to come to this so late, but can you back up the claim that Green Anarchist (who for the record I'm no great fan of) are fascist other then by citing Home. Considering that Home hates anarchists generally- see the Infoshop thread on this. So you'll understand why I don't trust him as a source on this. I will also say that he did attack GA at the time they were under serious state attention (that's a matter of public record, it was written at the height of Operation Washington), which basic radical principles suggest is only permissable with serious reason and I'm not convinced Home had such.

I have a lot of issues with anarcho-primitivism as an ideology, and I think the other individuals and organisations you name as ecofascist are reasonable. (Hunt was, after all, forced out of GA at least partly for racism).

But accusing people of being fascist is a serious allegation that you need to be able to back up with hard facts. And I don't believe you (or for that matter Home/the Neoist Alliance who are the only people making this allegation as regards GA) have done so in this case.
 
 
Seak
13:37 / 05.06.07
I just wanted to mention on the subject of flying and how bad it is for the environment, that it's a bit of a red herring environmentally speaking. (Quantum)

You're right to point out the deforestation is a huge problem. But the 3% figure for aviation is misleading. Aviation is 3% of global emissions (not counting the 1.9 or 2.5 - source dependant - 'radiative forcing' effect) but in the UK it's 13% of emissions. And that figure only includes outgoing flights*.

Really, we should be talking in terms of CO2 equivalent units (CEUs) instead of CO2 emissions, where the effect of 1 tonne = 1 CEU. The 'forcing' effect of aviation, which is the total effect of all the gases at the height they're emitted, is estimated at between 1.9 and 2.5 times (the Pre-Budget report states 2.5) the effect of the CO2 alone.

Hence 1 tonne of CO2 emitted by aviation has the effect of (according to the Government) 2.5 tonnes, or 2.5 CEUs. This is often missed out when factoring in the emissions of aviation versus other industries, although I'm told that the 13% stat includes it.

Of course, that doesn't make the deforestation any better. Alot of that is happening for land to grow soya for animal fodder (and soya milk, but much less so) and sugar beet for bio fuel.

*Incidentally, when you add in flights coming to the UK, the figure is more like 20% of our emissions.
 
  

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