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Sustainability and the left

 
  

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jmw
19:32 / 24.04.07
I was going to post this on another thread, but I didn't want to hijack it.

The term sustainable bothers me. It seems to indicate significantly lowered horizons. In fact, the very idea bothers me. I don't want to be 'sustainable', I want to live a free life and be productive. Isn't that what the left once stood for?

Let's think about electricity, that magical, invisible stuff that allows those of us in the west to pretend that we live in a post-industrial wonderland.

Does anyone else think that electricity, generated by whatever means, should be subsidised? I've just read that in the 1980s South Africa massively overproduced electricity and ended-up giving it away - to corporations, specifically the metals industries.

It's worth noting that despite the intentions (and propaganda) of green activists, domestic use constitutes a tiny percentage of grid electricity used.

Billions of people currently have no access to electricity. Is it right for us to demand that they stay in the dark ages, both metaphorically and literally? Think of the improvements that electricity would bring - health, economic development, social development. And let's face it, giving people a solar panel isn't going to cut it.

I rather suspect I will win no friends as a result of this thread, but there you have it.
 
 
Ticker
19:46 / 24.04.07
I think it is a valuable aspect of the discussion though I'd frame it a bit differently.

From my POV sustainable is progress in the sense that it is about using resources more efficiently. For example Permaculture farming is still farming, the act of intentionally seeding and harvesting plants (and to a lesser extent animals like bees). It's just being more aware of how to work with natural systems rather than putting so much effort into forcing them into another shape.

As for the left, I don't perceive it about wanting everyone to live in the stone age but rather how to bring everyone an equal level of quality existence and be able to provide for future generations.

I believe I read an article yesterday about Norway vowing to decrease its carbon footprint and it's doing this via hydropower. Pretty futuristic stuff and still sustainable.

So to me personally progress and sustainable are directly linked. Better technology creates more effective energy management possibilities. Another example is use of solar energy being tied to better batteries.

I for one hope to see technology in my lifetime that reverses pollution of the world's oceans. And jetpacks.
 
 
jmw
20:03 / 24.04.07
Oh, I'm all in favour of alternative technologies such as hydropower - I'm not actually pro-pollution. However, many greens are set against hydropower, a few are against wind farms and plenty are against biofuels such as wood pellets.

I have have my doubts about all of this individual sustainability business. Let's consider it a few different ways:

Firstly, it's narcissistic - "I'm reducing *my* harm.

Secondly, it's ineffectual. It doesn't work. If the green lobby is right then calculating carbon footprints is a waste of time, a mere diversion.

Thirdly, it's a religion. Or rather, some parts of it are. Lovelock and all of that Gaia nonsense. Totally anti-human.

Fourthly, it's a secular religion. Eco-priests instructing the laity. Consumption as sinning. I don't want some hair-shirt wearing sacredotal git instructing me on what's right and what's wrong.

Finally, is disastrous for the third world. Haven't we held them back enough? Green imperialism, anyone?

Thinking about permaculture, 'industrialised' agriculture could feed the world. Going back to 'natural' farming (and there's no such thing, really) would require a massive reduction in population. And before any Ted Kaczynski fans or hypocritical anarcho-primitivists pop up, that would be a bad thing.

"Better technology creates more effective energy management possibilities.

I agree. But many wouldn't.

"Another example is use of solar energy being tied to better batteries."

Yes, but right now the only thing worse than solar panels is... batteries. They're crap and wasteful.

So where does that leave us?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
20:13 / 24.04.07
The term sustainable bothers me.
Well, that's certainly your prerogative
It seems to indicate significantly lowered horizons.
I can see how one can think that, but the opposite can just as easily be argued. Sustainability. The ability to sustain. What is it that is to be sustained? Life. Health. Civilisation, even. I believe this is quite the opposite of lowered horizons, however bad that metaphor is. It is broadening and deepening the horizons. It's using scientific knowledge, amongst other epistemic domains, to recognize that the way we are living, we being the industrialised nations, is maximising short-term goals and desires while at the same time minimising long-term survival. We are using land, water and energy in wrong ways, and arguably for the wrong reasons.

In fact, the very idea bothers me. I don't want to be 'sustainable', I want to live a free life and be productive.
Well, so will our children. Sustainability isn't necessarily donning hair-shorts and smashing the capitalist machine. Sustainability has nothing to do, intrinsically, with Luddism, or devolving to a hunter-gatherer society. Zerzan is wrong. Amory Lovins is right. Sustainability isn't about doing less, it's about doing more with less. It's about techno-cultural progress in a very real sense - being more efficient, being smarter.

Isn't that what the left once stood for?
I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you unpack this a tad more?


It's worth noting that despite the intentions (and propaganda) of green activists, domestic use constitutes a tiny percentage of grid electricity used.
References? Looking at the IEA stats pages, using European OECD countries as an example, residential use of electricity in 2004 was 835524 GWh, of a total of 2910973 GWh. That's 28%. Hardly a tiny percentage. Hardly a green activist source. The same example, using Asia (excluding China) - 25.6%.

Billions of people currently have no access to electricity. Is it right for us to demand that they stay in the dark ages, both metaphorically and literally? Think of the improvements that electricity would bring - health, economic development, social development. And let's face it, giving people a solar panel isn't going to cut it.
No, it isn't right, but the choice you try to set up as being between us "giving up our way of life"/"switching off" and them "switching on" is false.

I rather suspect I will win no friends as a result of this thread, but there you have it.
We're not here to make friends. We're here to have reasoned exchanges of opinions.
 
 
petunia
20:19 / 24.04.07
I'm not really sure i understand your position. How are sustainability and progress mutually exclusive?

As i understand it, the aim for sustainability is pretty simple - that we acheive a lifestyle that can be sustained (i.e. doesn't create a defecit of energy/biomass/'stuff').

This definition says nothing either way for progress. If progress can be sustained, great. If progress is not sustainable, well, in what way is it progress? Taking one step forward and two steps back...

I want to live a free life and be productive.

As any Sartrean will tell you, freedom = responsibility. If we choose our actions, we choose their consequences. If we live sustainably, at a slight loss of freedom (though i'm not too sure how turning lights off and getting my electricity from hydropower impinges on my freedom...), we enable the freedom of future generations.

The opposite - living freely but causing defecit - leaves future generations increasingly trapped by the limits of their ancestors decisions.

I'm not really sure what sustainability means to you, but if we use the definition i use, i'm not sure i see the need for any of your concerns.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
20:21 / 24.04.07
Actually, XK, Norway already produces nearly all its power via hydropower, but unless they want to dam up more lakes and rivers (which isn't going to happen, I think, due to a strong conservationist lobby), they'll have to get their energy from elsewhere. They're already buying nuclear-generated power from Sweden I believe. The reduction in CF will be overwhelmingly through buying carbon quotas, and not through any real, on the ground reduction in CF.
 
 
petunia
20:22 / 24.04.07
X-post there...
 
 
petunia
20:29 / 24.04.07
Eco-priests instructing the laity. Consumption as sinning. I don't want some hair-shirt wearing sacredotal git instructing me on what's right and what's wrong.

So basically, this boils down to you being annoyed at the rhetoric of various people?

Have you got any criticism of the concept of sustainability in the scientific/theoretic sense?

Green imperialism, anyone?

Assuming that people will tell those in the 'third world' (oddly imperialist term that...) to just not use electricity...

Has anybody actually advocated this measure?

Or are people advocating the promotion and use of sustainable sources of power for these countries, along with our own?

I mean, it's annoying having to walk across the room to turn the tv off, rather than flick it onto standby, but dude - have you thought about what you're saying?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:39 / 24.04.07
Isn't that what the left once stood for?

O RLY?

I've always taken "the left", inasmuch as it actually exists, to be about responsibility and mutual support.

Wake me up when we get onto libertarianism, please. I have some yelling to do.
 
 
jmw
20:59 / 24.04.07
I note the tone is starting to get slightly unpleasant - 'snarky' as Americans would say. Can we nip that in the bud please? I am asking serious questions and making a serious argument. It may be challenging an orthodoxy but... so what?

Anyway, too much up there to reply to right now, but I will later. For now:

So basically, this boils down to you being annoyed at the rhetoric of various people?

Partly, yes. Partly I am concerned about the negative assumptions about humanity that underpin the thinking. And partly I am concerned that the consequences will be dire for the poor in particular.

'third world' (oddly imperialist term that...)

Imperialist language now? Nonsense. I grew up in the second world. It's a perfectly acceptable term. I don't try to keep up with the various linguistic contortions people tie themselves in knots with but I will say that the preferred term, "the developing world" is a nonsense because so much of it simply is not developing. Yeah, China and India - what about the rest?

Has anybody actually advocated this measure?

Jeremy Leggit for one. There have been others.

Or are people advocating the promotion and use of sustainable sources of power for these countries, along with our own?

No, they're promoting the idea that, for example, Africa should be denied first world-style industrial development and the many benefits it brought us in favour of a form of micro development that is so insubstantial that it is no development at all.

Solar panels will never generate enough electricity for industry and with dams off the map (as a result of various NGOs) exactly what 'sustainable' sources are going to be available in the third world?

I mean, it's annoying having to walk across the room to turn the tv off, rather than flick it onto standby, but dude - have you thought about what you're saying?

Don't be facetious. I'm being perfectly serious. I'm not talking about laziness.

I've always taken "the left", inasmuch as it actually exists, to be about responsibility and mutual support.

Depends which left you mean. Fabaianism or Christian socialism maybe, Marxism, no. It was about achieving freedom through the unleashing of productive forces as result of the seizure of the means of production.

Wake me up when we get onto libertarianism

If it comes up it won't be me that brings it up.

Mos Nolte, I'll respond to your points later.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:03 / 24.04.07
Depends which left you mean.

Well, of course. But you were the one who brought up "the left". Which left do YOU mean?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
21:11 / 24.04.07
I note the tone is starting to get slightly unpleasant
Well, you reap what you sow, mate. To wit, comments such as
Thirdly, it's a religion. Or rather, some parts of it are. Lovelock and all of that Gaia nonsense. Totally anti-human.

I don't want some hair-shirt wearing sacredotal git instructing me on what's right and what's wrong.

...hypocritical anarcho-primitivists


You make some valid remarks and pop some interesting questions. But you're not backing them up with facts. In fact, you're not backing them up at all beyond saying basically "I don't like that people tell me what to do" and using loaded language, all the while complaining about "green activists" and their "propaganda". Come back with some meat, and we'll do a proper grilling.

Oh, I see you say will respond to my points. Thanks. No sarcasm intended. This debate is to important to be hijacked by hyperbole third-rate rhetoric.
 
 
jmw
21:12 / 24.04.07
.trampetunia
Have you got any criticism of the concept of sustainability in the scientific/theoretic sense?

Sustainability isn't science, not by a long shot.

If you mean do I have a scientific critique of, say, climate change, then no. But I am not a scientist. And that's not my point anyway.


Mos Nolte
Sustainability isn't necessarily donning hair-shorts and smashing the capitalist machine.

Indeed not. It's the exact opposite of smashing the capitalist machine unfortunately.

Zerzan is wrong

If you're right then I'm happy.

That's 28%. Hardly a tiny percentage.

Set against 72 per cent, yes it is.

No, it isn't right, but the choice you try to set up as being between us "giving up our way of life"/"switching off" and them "switching on" is false.

That's not what I'm trying to say at all. I haven't linked what we do to what they do except to say that we are potentially stopping them from switching on.

Regarding my point about industrial development, it's quite simple really: industry creates wealth, it's as simple as that. True, it is unevenly distributed, but that's another issue altogether. It's very easy to take the post-modern view that we live in a post-material world - stock traders do, for example - but it's just not true.


THIS. IS. STOATAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Well, of course. But you were the one who brought up "the left". Which left do YOU mean?

The actual, meaningful, let's-expropriate-the-capitalists real left, not soggy liberals in drag.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:15 / 24.04.07
soggy liberals in drag

*koff*

SORRY???
 
 
jmw
21:15 / 24.04.07
Reap what I sow? Are you going to tell me that anarcho-primitivists using a computer bulletin board aren't hypocritical?

And Lovelock's theory is a religion - that's what it is. I don't like any religion and, perhaps then my bias is too strong, but to call it science would be stretching the term beyond any meaningful use.

Anyway, back to my main argument.

For the record, what set this off is the tone of recent environmental activism, government scare-mongering and lousy journalism. I'm not actually saying that the core science is wrong.
 
 
jmw
21:17 / 24.04.07
soggy liberals in drag

What might be pejoratively referred to as a "Guardian reader", though personally I don't like that term.

Soggy as in wet, insipid.

Liberalism is not of the left, though it has stolen the left's clothes since the 1980s.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:24 / 24.04.07
Good good. We're on acontextual quote/short, dismissive answer already. The Barbelith equivalent of spitting food back into your mother's face.

The snark here is entirely a result of your approach, jmw. If you have a beef with a specific instance of journalistic or governmental misrepresentation, let's start there. Citation, not straw man.
 
 
jmw
21:44 / 24.04.07
Good good. We're on quote/short, dismissive answer already. The Barbelith equivalent oof spitting food back into your mother's face.

That's just the way I post. I apologise if it's considered bad form.

And yeah, OK I'm posting too much here but let me clear the decks.

I want to repeat that what set me thinking is the tone of recent environmental activism, government scare-mongering and lousy journalism. I'm not actually saying that the core science is wrong.

In terms of politics, is no-one else suspicious about Tory party jumping so wholeheartedly on the sustainability bandwagon? Zac Goldsmith supposedly being set up for a safe seat.

Secondly, propaganda is a perfectly acceptable term as any politico will tell you. It's not the loaded term that it sometimes used as in the press. I mean in in the sense of one making a political or sectional argument in a forthright manner.

Thirdly, I'm sure I'm horribly out of date here but when I say left I mean anarchists, Marxists and 'democratic socialists', not liberals (who are right of centre) and social democrats (who are centrists). Perhaps there is some confusion over the terminology for geographic or other reasons but to be clear, I am talking about socialism.

It's too late right now for me to start quoting chapter and verse but I assure you I am not making straw man arguments, certainly not intentionally, and will respond in more detail but I don't see why discussing these things in the abstract is such a bad thing. If my interpretation of the term 'sustainability' is wrong, fair enough, but is certainly presented as a kind of make-do and mend attitude.

The real issue for me is how it will effect the poor, both the relatively poor (such as myself) and the extremely poor living in underdeveloped countries.

A simple, albeit fairly insignificant, example: where I live there is a bin tax - a direct, consumption-based tax on waste. You pay per bin load or if, like me, you live in a flat you pay per bag load. Needless to say, paying by the bag is several times more expensive.

Rich people living in large houses, especially in the country, can avoid paying as much as I do because they can have the waste dealt with privately for less (as many do) and they can just dump larger items randomly in the country (and, again, many do). This very point was put to me by a well-paid professional.

Now, the reality is that this measure was likely brought in to generate revenue but it was supported by the Green party who call themselves progressive and whose members often call themselves left. All of the (tiny) socialist groups and parties opposed it but it was passed as a result of being bolstered by an environmentalist patina.

I recently spoke to a woman who owns a company that sells rainwater harvesting systems. She and others are lobbying for consumption-based water charges based on the premise that there is a shortage of water.

This in a country with between 750 and 1000mm of rainfall a year and whose driest year was 1887. It rains, on average, up to 225 days a year. If, and it's a big if, there is a water shortage it is as a result of an ageing network and leaks, not a lack of water.

A consumption tax like this is regressive.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
21:47 / 24.04.07
And Lovelock's theory is a religion - that's what it is. I don't like any religion and, perhaps then my bias is too strong, but to call it science would be stretching the term beyond any meaningful use.

See, this is where you go wrong. Lovelock's Gaia hypothesis is just that - a hypothesis, no less testable than the neoDarwinian synthesis so beloved of for example Dawkins. It might be wrong, and it might have been wrongfully appropriated and intentionally misrepresented by self-styled eco-warriors/-priests/-paladins, but that doesn't prove or disprove anything about the hypothesis itself.

And you responding to my statement
That's 28%. Hardly a tiny percentage.
with
Set against 72 per cent, yes it is.
is just....
..... next time, quantify "tiny" first, then, so we're all on the same page. Or make use of the word so that it's tiny relative to something that is clearly much vaster. Whatever that might be.

And I still don't see any facts, backed up with references here. If we're to follow your lead, this is supposed to be about the tone of the enviro-reportage, media agit-prop and so on, so you might argue that TEH FAKX are irrelevant, but in that case I suggest you change the topic title to Bad use of the term sustainability or something to the same effect.
 
 
petunia
21:54 / 24.04.07
The actual, meaningful, let's-expropriate-the-capitalists real left

So i had to look up 'expropriation' and i got:

"Expropriation is the act of removing control from the owner of an item of property. The term is used to both refer to acts by a government or by any group of people."

Which makes sense, but earlier you said:

industry creates wealth, it's as simple as that.

I'm low on left-theory, so i might be missing something here, but isn't wealth an inherently capitalist concept?

Is there not some contradiction in valourising the people who wish to remove the capitalist system, while valourising the processes that system engenders?

Unless you are talking about wealth in the non-monetary sense (wealth life - happiness comfort etc), in which case we're on odgy ground and can argue that the industrial structures of much of our world create no wealth of life and can be got rid of.

Going back to 'natural' farming... would require a massive reduction in population... that would be a bad thing.

You think that 6+ billion people is actually a good thing? Is this somehow justified by your ideal of progress? What are we progressing to? You know 6 billion is a lot of people, don't you?

But anyway, it seems you are saying that, instead of questioning sustainability as a concept/theory/possibility (as was suggested by the thread title and your first post), you actually want to talk about how annoying faux-lefties are when they unthinkingly release half-baked ideas into the social discourse.

Fair enough. But could you parhaps bake your ideas a little bit before releasing them, too?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
21:56 / 24.04.07
.trampetunia - get out of my head, please. this x-posting is unnerving me. more tomorrow, jmw and y'all. the rituals of bedfordshire beckon me.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:58 / 24.04.07
jmw, on James Lovelock and the 'Gaia thing' that you are so derogatory about, Lovelock actually proposes that, at least in the UK, nuclear energy becomes our source for electricity. James Lovelock is not some 'loony, green person', and actually has caused a great deal of debate within the green community with regard to nuclear fission.

He suggests that until such time as nuclear fusion becomes possible, nuclear fission is the only option to continue to power ourselves. Some people that you would class as green may not agree with him, possibly including me, but his solution would at least allow coutries like Africa to eventually use sustainable electricity, although admittedly the cost currently is prohibitive. You may like to read his book Revenge of Gaia for more on that theory.

The term biofuel more commonly refers to things like palm oil as fuel, something which FotE have a lot to say about. Many articles here. They are not currently nearly so worried about woodpellets!

So I think perhaps people are being a bit snarky because a lot of your statements are a bit facutally inaccurate, and fairly sweeping. It's an interesting topic though.
 
 
jmw
22:14 / 24.04.07
Last post for the night, I promise. Regarding relative scale, it occurs to me that much of the action that is demanded on, for example, climate change is at the level of individuals. When domestic electricity use is so much lower than industrial use this seems wrong to me. I'm not against industrial development of course, but I think it's only fair that industry pays its way.

I might change the title, you could be right.

References aren't everything, but you will get them in due course. However, for tonight I ask you to take it as read that I being sincere, although I think I've been clear that I am.

It also occurs to me, rather belatedly, that my questions only make sense at all if you're a socialist. If one isn't then one wouldn't care about how the left of yesteryear compares to today's left. Environmentalism is usually presented as left-wing in nature but I don't think it is. Being charitable, I would say it's neutral and can serve many diverse agendas. However, if someone isn't at all interested in harnessing productive forces for the mass of humanity then everything that I've written is irrelevant. As strident as what I've written might sound, it's not new.

As Marx wrote: "Herr Daurner's cult of nature, by the way, is a peculiar one. He manages to be reactionary even in comparison with Christianity. He tries to restore the old pre-Christian natural religion in a modernised form. [...] We see that this cult of nature is limited to the Sunday walks of an inhabitant of a small provincial town who childishly wonders at the cuckoo laying its eggs in another bird's nest(Vol. II, p. 40), at tears being designed to keep the surface of the eyes moist (Vol. II, p. 73), and so on, and finally trembles with reverence as he recites Klopstock's Ode to Spring to his children. (Vol. II, p. 23 et seqq.) There is no mention, of course, of modern natural science, which, with modern industry, has revolutionised the whole of nature and put an end to man's childish attitude towards nature as well as to other forms of childishness. But instead we get mysterious hints and astonished philistine notions about Nostradamus' prophecies, second sight in Scotsmen and animal magnetism. For the rest, it would be desirable that Bavaria's sluggish peasant economy, the ground on which grow priests and Daumers alike, should at last be ploughed up by modern cultivation and modern machines."

Karl Marx, I. G. Fr Daumer, Die Religion des neuen Weltalters. Versuch einer combinatorisch-aphoristischen Grundlegung, Neue Rheinische Zeitung Politisch-ökonomische Revue, 1850

Meanwhile, what about housebuilding in the countryside, very much a hot issue at the moment?

Madeleine Bunting: "The hijacking of the countryside by the middle class, who used both conservationist and environmentalist arguments to defend their self-interest, is an untold story of the past century. They have used the planning system and, latterly, the housing market to create the kind of picture-book zones that cover large areas of Hampshire, Sussex, Gloucestershire and Wiltshire. They have become gated communities in all but name."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2063199,00.html

Now, a sirst reference, but you'll have to forgive me as it's quite parochial.

The book 'Land Matters: Power Struggles in Rural Ireland' by Ruth Crowley. As with any book on rural affairs, the central issues are those surrounding farming. Early on the author lays her cards on the table, critcising ‘productivism’, which she describes as “the relentlessy intensive use of land and natural resources, regardless of negative social or environmental effects." She goes on: “It is heavily influenced by the agri-scientific establishment, whose aim is to constantly reach new frontiers in order to conquer nature.” (p. 20) A less emotive description of this phenomenon might be rural capitalism. Orthodox Marxist thinking - for the record, it is Crowley who riases Marx’s spectre on page three of Land Matters - would enourage such ‘productivism’, pointing to it as a progressive development. Indeed, the use of the loaded term ‘agri-scientific establishment’ is worth noting. ‘Just who is this sinister cabal and what are they doing to our land and our food?’, the phrase seems to ask.

Unlike today’s anti-capitalists, Marx had plenty of positive things to say about capitalism. In the Communist Manifesto, for example, he wrote: “The bourgoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part. [It] has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pittilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his ‘natural superiors’ [...] It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage-labourers.” If Marx’s so-called productivism isn’t clear enough, consdier the following, also from the Communist Manifesto: “It has been the first to show what man’s activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former exoduses of nations and crusades.”

Of course, Marx was no Adam Smith. He did have a trenchant critique of capitalism, but it wasn’t one of the folly of ‘productivism’. Marx’s criticism was that capitalism’s productive forces, though a vast improvement on what went before, were uneven due to the capitalists’ need to exporpriate surplus value as private profit and was therfore incapable of satisfying human need. He did not, however, want to preserve the past - or the present - in perperutity. Capitialism’s most trenchant critic wanted to tear society asunder once again in order to better unleash humanity’s creative and productive potential.
 
 
petunia
22:16 / 24.04.07
Sorry for the brainsteal Nolte!

Before i head bedwards, i thought i'd point towards these people who are working on bad-ass Solar Tower technology.

The idea is; you have a massive (like, MASSIVE) greenhouse with a massive (like, 1km tall massive) funnel in the centre. The air in the greehouse heats up and rises at a fast rate out of the funnel. Turbines all around the base of the funnel move and make teh electrics and we're all happy. They reckon they can get "up to 200MW of clean, emission free electricity – enough electricity for 200,000 typical Australian homes" out of one of these things.

Seems that sort of thing would be pretty effective in a country that gets a lot of sunlight. Another bonus is the fact that the greenhouse can be used to grow crops that might otherwise not grow in such areas.

Looks pretty progressive to me.
 
 
petunia
22:47 / 24.04.07
Soo tired, but...

much of the action that is demanded on, for example, climate change is at the level of individuals

I can see your issue here, but in a way, aiming at the individual first could be seen as a pragmatic move. Industry and Big Business are unlikely to change their ways anytime soon, so long as there is a profit to be found in unsustainable activity.

However, if awareness is brought to the individual, and they start to make changes in their life, this will have a knock-on effect in terms of what products they, who they vote for...

If you look at the example of GM foods, we have an instance where public awareness is brought to the iffyness of a certain product. There was a mix of hyperbole, rhetoric and general bullshit, along with actual facts. It became a small zeitgeist for the 'wet liberals' you so love, with the Guardian printing column-inch after column-inch covering the issue.

All that has calmed down now, but GM foods still hold a place in the public consciousness. This has affected the practices of large businesses - Sainsbury's got rid of all GM produce in their own-brand food. This, in turn, sends messages to the electoral candidates...

So while the individual is being held to sustainable practice at the moment, we are already starting to see Green cars, washing mashines etc with increasing regularity. 'Green' is big and, while the bandwagon always drops its share of horse manure, this one seems to be heading towards a Good Thing (if we suppose that industry taking on sustainable measures is a Good Thing).
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:44 / 25.04.07
However, if awareness is brought to the individual, and they start to make changes in their life, this will have a knock-on effect in terms of what products they, who they vote for...

This isn't going to really work out though, is it? It's been the situation for ten, fifteen years in the West, at least certainly in Europe, that worrying about the environment is largely a good thing, and yet all the newspaper articles, films and so on, seem to have made very little difference. Carbon emissions seem to keep on rising.

Accordingly, it's a bit hopeless to pretend that the average day to day consumer is any sense to blame, when government worldwide seems so into this grim scenario.
 
 
Saturn's nod
06:39 / 25.04.07
Worldchanging is a group blog about bright green stuff: intelligent and sexy design that's low carbon, not polluting and so on. They talk about the 'leapfrog' idea for development.

It makes sense to me: the idea is for the longest-developed economies to lead the way in green and low carbon conversion. We've spent around half of the world's 'capital' energy - fossil carbon - and that is what has fuelled the development of the wealth we have. It's only fair that we now risk that wealth and our comforts in undergoing the big conversion and redesign towards intelligent use of limited resources. To me that means an economy based on reintegrating wastes, and harvesting only what is renewed in human time-scales, rather than for example poisoning the land future generations will want to use and destroying precious resources such as soil, as is happening at present. Why not get into habits of increasing the amount of fresh water available rather than lazily reducing it, since we have the ability to choose?

My attitude is that the UK as one of the oldest industrialized nations needs to use the huge embodied energy in the resources we have to pioneer solutions that put all our human activities into the 'solar energy' economy (if I can use solar here as a catch-all term to contrast with fossil energy). Then we get the best 'leapfrog' solutions, where the best solar powered economical hacks get adopted early by nations which haven't been industrialized so long: China and India obviously the big ones.

The Zero Emissions Research and Initiatives have pilot projects running in a lot of different places, I was impressed by a presentation Gunter gave a few years ago about a pilot small hospital in rural Africa designed to be self-sufficient for electricity and water. That's real progress. From my point of view the kind of progress that's based in an old-fashioned view of the world as expendable and unlimited, and which is wholly dependent on fossil energy is the one that's stuck in the past, dangerous and lacking in a sense of progress.

It's in all our interests that humans stop drawing carbon out of the geochemical cycle and pumping it into the atmosphere. I think we most urgently need ways for humans to get what we want - food, water, healthcare, peace, education, fun - through a solar economy.
 
 
jmw
12:33 / 25.04.07
I have to get some work done so more later but a couple of quick points:

Regarding the Australian solar project, at a glance I have no problem with it whatsoever. At least it appears to be on a suitably large scale.

Yes, six billion people is a good thing. Or, more correctly, it's what we have. People are not a problem, they're a solution. When people talk about population reduction they're not terribly far off providing the intellectual framework for, well, you work it out...

I contend that technical problems require technical solutions.

The GM foods point I would like to return to later. I really do consider that to have been a very ill-informed debate.

Lovelock's conversion to nuclear, which may or may not be a good thing, notwithstanding, his Gaia theory is much more unscientific than Dawkins evolutionary research. The idea that earth can be seen as a living organism due to the interaction of agents living on it is not falsifiable and has fed into some seriously oddball religious new age mysticism, intentionally or otherwise.
 
 
jmw
12:40 / 25.04.07
One other quick thing:

I'm low on left-theory, so i might be missing something here, but isn't wealth an inherently capitalist concept?

Absolutely not. The point is to distribute the wealth evenly. The question is about surplus value - the increase of value on investment, yielded in profit, interest or rent - whose ultimate source is labour (unpaid surplus labour) which allows for capital accumulation, hence the desire to seize the means of production.

Start here, though I suggest buying the book because it makes for an awfully long HTML document:
www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/

Even if you have zero time for Marxism it's a useful book to get acquainted with.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
12:42 / 25.04.07
Not that the Gaia theory is the fulcrum of the sustainability debate (although it has informed a great many environmental thinkers and doers) - but really, go check out the wikipedia page, read up on some cybernetics and come back with some more reasoned arguments as to why it's less scientific than some of Dawkins' stuff, like memetics, for example.

Also, you say that a technical problem requires a technichal solution. Well, that might be right, but sustainability, or the problems we have with pollution and loss of biodiversity (only 2 examples) are not technical problems. They are social, cultural, political and economical problems. Technology will certainly enter into the solutions, but to reduce them to technology is simply naive. More on that later. Must work.
 
 
Ticker
13:27 / 25.04.07
Yes, six billion people is a good thing. Or, more correctly, it's what we have. People are not a problem, they're a solution. When people talk about population reduction they're not terribly far off providing the intellectual framework for, well, you work it out...

For what exactly? Birthcontrol? How many of the six billion people are having offspring not because they want to but because they don't have the ability to make other choices around reproduction?
 
 
petunia
14:05 / 25.04.07
What XK said, really.

People are not a problem, they're a solution.

In a lot of places, people are a problem. The sheer mass of human life is making it difficult to sustain other life forms, along with that human life itself. I don't think it's particularly radical to say that, if we only have enough resources to support X amount of people, then overpopulation is a problem.

Obviously, people will need to be a solution to this problem, but one of the ways people can solve this problem is to reduce the population.

When people talk about population reduction they're not terribly far off providing the intellectual framework for, well, you work it out...

Personally, i think educating people to use birth control and have less children (is there a thread somewhere on the right to bear children?) is a long distance from any kind of eugenics/cull that you seem to be hinting at. The assumption that one position leads to another is rather worrying, really.
 
 
diz
15:32 / 25.04.07
Population issues are otherwise basically outside the range of issues that policymakers can exert much control. We have about 6 billion people now, and we're on course to hit 10 billion in a few decades before it starts dropping again. I agree that we should be encouraging birth control and so on, and further I would point out that:

1) Providing women in developing countries with the ability to control their own reproduction greatly speeds up economic development
2) More economically-developed countries have lower birth rates, as lower infant mortality and more emphasis on education start to move people from an r-selected reproduction strategy to a K-selected one.
3) 1 + 2 becomes a virtuous cycle

All that said, we can't really exert too much conscious control over the whole process or try to enforce broad mandates, just encouraging nudges here and there. We should plan around peaking at about 10 billion people by mid-century before we start to drop again, and there's not a lot we can do about that.

I don't think it's particularly radical to say that, if we only have enough resources to support X amount of people, then overpopulation is a problem.

It may not be particularly radical, but it's also not particularly accurate. You're presuming, falsely, that both the gross amount of resources available and the amount of resources necessary to support X number of people are fixed. We're much better off trying to increase the availability of resources and decreasing the amount of resources consumed in supporting X number of people, mostly through increases in efficiency, than we are trying to reduce the number of people.
 
 
Red Concrete
14:05 / 26.04.07
You're presuming, falsely, that both the gross amount of resources available and the amount of resources necessary to support X number of people are fixed.

I think they are fixed. There's only a certain amount of sunlight, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, etc on Earth. And there are (exponentially?) diminishing returns in extracting them - e.g. we can't really run out of iron, if the planetary core is composed of it, but to extract it all becomes energetically inefficient. This leads to, for example, a hard limit on the amount of plant life on the planet.

I'm struggling with the argument of this thread, though. Are being Green, and being Left inextricably linked somehow? Can someone explain why to me in simple terms? (and not just with examples, I know Green Parties are generally socialist) Why should differences of opinion of the distribution of wealth correlate with differences of opinion on technical, pragmatic aspects of wealth generation?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
15:15 / 26.04.07
This in a country with between 750 and 1000mm of rainfall a year and whose driest year was 1887. It rains, on average, up to 225 days a year. If, and it's a big if, there is a water shortage it is as a result of an ageing network and leaks, not a lack of water.

A consumption tax like this is regressive.


Hmmm, not loving the way you are making parts of the argument but very, very with you on this. I'd regard myself as being fairly green, but the idea of deliberately placing a disproportionately high part of the burden of environmental concerns on the poorer people in a society is one I find pretty head-sick making.

I am a socialist and in my lefty opinion the root cause of us continually screwing the environment comes not so much from individual people, as from the lack of planning in the economy as a whole - all the while we're organising things based on the markets and profitability for large companies which operate in competition with each other the environment is basically screwed.

There is stuff we as individuals can do certainly - but applying every bit of political pressure we can for a change in the way things are organised is rather more likely to be useful than us reducing our own individual carbon footprints.

All that said us behaving in a green manner is certainly one way of applying that pressure, so I think there’s a lot of value in what .trampetunia says a couple of posts ago, about the message possibly getting through to government and companies that way as well.
 
  

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