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The Thread For Normal Blokes

 
  

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:11 / 30.03.07
TG- "Slapper" is a very nasty though clever word, really, managing to be both a class-based and a gender-based insult at the same time.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:17 / 30.03.07
Yeah, you're thinking "flapper"! Does "slapper" only, or mainly, mean a working-class promiscuous or "easy" woman, or one who dresses in a way that supposedly suggests she's "easy"? I'm sure it can be used for middle-class women, and indeed for men, but those usages are probably usually more light-hearted.

I do look at quite a lot of internet boards ~ it's terrible.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:21 / 30.03.07
It's a case of university "yoof" talking about "university yoof". There really isn't an economic element to what I was putting across.

I think there's an interesting point that writing in that way may not be defined by class. It may well be shaped by class and education, but then... class and education aren't bound together in the same way anymore as they used to be. I know a lot of 18-21 year-old university students who mail lecturers in a really casual, text-speak abbreviated style. Those are students at a "new" university, primarily from working-class backgrounds, I suspect, but I don't know.

I think that form of off-the-top-of-your-head writing is just a lot more common, as in frequent, these days. Admittedly, I don't personally think it's appropriate if you're writing to a lecturer, or your manager. I think that's a bit of an error of judgement. But I certainly don't think it's restricted to non-graduates.
 
 
Princess
12:35 / 30.03.07
My old uni (just left) is middle as pie filling. I think it's more a thing to do ith my age group in general really. Most handwritten notes I/my friends send are in this. It's only really Barbelith, essays and blogs that I treat to an attempt at good English.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:39 / 30.03.07
You write notes by hand? Old skool.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:52 / 30.03.07
Thanks for the examples, MW - although the stated aim of this thread has clearly died on its arse (to rise again, perhaps), there's some interesting stuff here. For example, looking at that Police Special Constables thread you linked to, I'm not seeing the mannerisms you put into your speech - there seems to be relatively little LOLing (again), and nobody on the page I read said "whateva" so much as once. Punctuation goes the way of all flesh a bit, but largely sentence structure is passably like standard English, sentences begin with capitals and end in full stops... it reminds me more of rading a LiveJournal comment thread - people seeming to be reasonably indifferent to differences in writing style from post to post. Possibly people on Barbelith do try to post more formally, although this is by no means necessarily the case - a number of people post to Barbelith in uncapped text, or sentence fragments, but perhaps people do make more of an effort here, and those same people post elsewhere in a yet looser style.

Hmmm... interesting.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
12:55 / 30.03.07
"Slapper" is a very nasty though clever word, really, managing to be both a class-based and a gender-based insult at the same time.

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up, it could have led to awkward moments once I get this time machine working.

I didn't notice much of a class or education element in the mockery and figured it was more or less all in good fun. Even so the thread just reads weird for me. I think I must still be a little drunk from last night.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:59 / 30.03.07
For example, looking at that Police Special Constables thread you linked to, I'm not seeing the mannerisms you put into your speech - there seems to be relatively little LOLing (again), and nobody on the page I read said "whateva" so much as once.

True, I didn't mean to say "here is the model for what I was doing above" ~ I meant that here, as one example, is a board where educated, adult professionals communicating in a relaxed way with internet friends tend to be careless with spelling and punctuation. If there are no "lol"s there (I didn't check) I'm surprised... I think "lol" is very widespread actually, and not especially typical of a class or age group, though probably more common among younger people. I use it in emails to friends, in a way that's only partly ironic, not to indicate that I'm actually laughing but that my comment is meant as a joke. (I think people used to write *jk*, more ~ perhaps that's died out, along with *s* and *g* for smile and grin.)

it reminds me more of rading a LiveJournal comment thread - people seeming to be reasonably indifferent to differences in writing style from post to post.

See, I don't read LJ much, though I used to post on it, and it's interesting to me that LiveJournal seems to have become shorthand on here for something... regarded as careless, self-indulgent, immature, inferior to Barbelith's Conversation? That wasn't really my experience of LJ ~ I'd thought you could make of it very much what you wanted, and Ganesh's page, which I recently visited, seems to back that up.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:03 / 30.03.07
The Police Specials page does have a "hehe" I think, and "duno" and "cuz", which is along the same sort of lines as "lol" and "wateva" ~ though again, I don't think it needs exact equivalence to make my point.
 
 
Princess
13:16 / 30.03.07
I'm at the point now where "lol" is part of my spoken volcabulary. I think it's fairly commonly used.

Apart from with my Mom, because she insists it stands for "love you lots", which makes mockery particularly hard for me.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:22 / 30.03.07
If there are no "lol"s there (I didn't check) I'm surprised.

There are. However, that is not what I wrote. I said that they were relatively uncommon - relative, in this case, to your representation of this persona. Nor, indeed, did my reference to LiveJournal have anything to do with its quality relative to Barbelith, but rather the way that people in comments threads are apparently indifferent to the writing style of other people in the same thread - there isn't the apparent impulse to raise at least one's presentational game that some appear to feel on Barbelith. I was thinking in particular of a particular person on LJ who writes consistently in a textual approximation of what I take to be a thick Yorkshire accent, for reasons of their own, but whose decision to do so is never mentioned, as far as I can see.

That was one of two references to LiveJournal I believe I have made in this thread. I would be happy to provide further detail on the thinking behind the other if you would like.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:38 / 30.03.07
If there are no "lol"s there (I didn't check) I'm surprised.

There are. However, that is not what I wrote. I said that they were relatively uncommon


I was very careless to totally misread what you said there.

- relative, in this case, to your representation of this persona.

Although you realise I wasn't trying to represent the persona of a contributor to the Police Special Constables thread.

Nor, indeed, did my reference to LiveJournal have anything to do with its quality relative to Barbelith, but rather the way that people in comments threads are apparently indifferent to the writing style of other people in the same thread - there isn't the apparent impulse to raise at least one's presentational game that some appear to feel on Barbelith. I was thinking in particular of a particular person on LJ who writes consistently in a textual approximation of what I take to be a thick Yorkshire accent, for reasons of their own, but whose decision to do so is never mentioned, as far as I can see.

There are a couple of people on Barbelith who seem to write in a certain accent or dialect, I think... you noted this above, anyway.


That was one of two references to LiveJournal I believe I have made in this thread. I would be happy to provide further detail on the thinking behind the other if you would like.


Sure ~ maybe there haven't been that many references to LJ on Barbelith, but I've just got the general impression recently that it's regarded as somewhere where self-indulgence that wouldn't fly on Barbelith is allowed. Maybe that makes perfect sense, as it's made up of individual forums owned and administrated by the diary-author, where s/he can control the membership.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
14:24 / 30.03.07
yadda yadda yadda whatever...Haus get em out!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:57 / 30.03.07
What? My hemispheres?


Sure ~ maybe there haven't been that many references to LJ on Barbelith, but I've just got the general impression recently that it's regarded as somewhere where self-indulgence that wouldn't fly on Barbelith is allowed.


I think that how Barbelith perceives LiveJournal, or how people on Barbelith perceive LiveJournal, is interesting. And yes, I think they are for different things - LJ is, as much as anything else, a diary program with a social software front end. Maybe a new thread - there is a Barbelith thread about LJs/blogs, but it is mainly for listing yours rather than talkign about it.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
15:33 / 30.03.07
Yes Yes your puppies...where you're dogs at..toot toot.
 
 
HCE
15:59 / 30.03.07
I find the notion of LiveJournal as inferior very odd -- I am more chatty and conversational there, but I also put most of the things that mean a lot to me there, because I have more control over my privacy (so I can, for example, talk about my love life and sex life, as well as my family) and I can control the participant pool (so I know the conversation won't degenerate into explaining basics).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:57 / 30.03.07
I don't think anyone has said it _is_ inferior, though - just appropriate to different things. More later, though.
 
 
HCE
17:44 / 30.03.07
Ah, sorry -- was responding to mw's sense of it as a place where self-indulgence that "wouldn't fly" here is allowed -- I thought that made it sound inferior in some way.
 
 
penitentvandal
19:38 / 30.03.07
I was thinking in particular of a particular person on LJ who writes consistently in a textual approximation of what I take to be a thick Yorkshire accent, for reasons of their own, but whose decision to do so is never mentioned, as far as I can see.

Haus, that is me blummin' normal accent, okay? Just 'cause someone's from geet north of the Watford Gap you assume they're from Yorkshire! How, man!
 
 
Kirin? Who the heck?
20:21 / 30.03.07
I'm 17 and I know that the vast majority of my peers in sixth-form can write very well if they need to. It really is a matter of context, and in an online/text messaging context there's a lot of text-speak. The problems only come when they make a mistake in judging the appropriateness of the text-speak style to the situation.

I, however, have usually quite distanced myself from text-speak, so I find it really quite difficult to read in places, and I can't write in it – it sounds (and is) contrived. But then, I'm a bit of an oddity amongst my peers, though I do know a few who have the same problem.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:51 / 30.03.07
I'm 17

Aren't we all dear, in the ways that matter, in our hearts?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:30 / 30.03.07
Ah, sorry -- was responding to mw's sense of it as a place where self-indulgence that "wouldn't fly" here is allowed -- I thought that made it sound inferior in some way.

I think I've also seen Mordant referring to LJ in a kind of derogatory way, with reference to Netaungrot and Temple behaviour. I hope I don't have that wrong, because I don't mean to stir through ignorance, and inevitably I don't really understand every subtlety of Temple debate. But I found one example on a recent Policy tread, for instance:

if the answer is "I'm new at this and it seemed like a good idea," why, when challenged, do you spit out your dummy and run whining back to Lj-land to kvetch about how meen everyone is? Do you think everyone else sits around like you, pulling stuff out of their arses and inventing oh-so-clever workings 90% of which never actually get worked?


So, that's just Mordant, but then Haus also posted on this thread implying that wish-fulfilment role-playing was more suitable to LJ, so there are two big figures (to me) both apparently suggesting LiveJournal is for self-indulgent wankery, really.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:51 / 30.03.07
Oh I've finally realised that a thread about the Proclaimers, which I avoided because I have no interest in the Proclaimers, is the source for the "Normal Blokes" gag. I think a lot of people, including me, totally missed the intended point of the thread.

Flyboy's intention in starting it was pretty clearly to reference behaviour recently displayed by you and Sole Eater

I think it's a good gag and good point now, and I thought it was a funny parody of a social type when I didn't realise the precise butt of the humour, but I would have appreciated a link in the first post just so I knew what it was referring to, and didn't go off on a weird tangent myself.
 
 
Lugue
22:52 / 30.03.07
So, that's just Mordant, but then Haus also posted on this thread implying that wish-fulfilment role-playing was more suitable to LJ, so there are two big figures (to me) both apparently suggesting LiveJournal is for self-indulgent wankery, really.

The point might simply be that LiveJournal-style posting is neutrally "self-indulgent" in the context of, well, LiveJournal (seeing as its point is, essentially, self-indulgence), but becomes an issue when engaging with others in broad, non-personal (or not exclusively personal, or not as personal) topics. So: not a bad thing in and of itself; a bad thing on a board, and as such on Barbelith. The main point of that Policy quote (which, maybe, could do with a little context?) seems to me that rather than adressing points when challenged, the person adressed has some sort of fit and runs away, victimized. Again, negative in relation to the discussion. I assume.

Oh, I thought, oh I did, of just playing along not to be so meddlingly serious, but my last thought before the post was along the lines of "I Need Punk Queers With Not Too Big 'Hawks In My Life", so who the fuck would I be kidding? I mean, really.
 
 
grant
22:59 / 30.03.07
I started avoiding that Proclaimers thread after I got the idea that wheelchairs were involved, because it depressed me.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
23:02 / 30.03.07
I think the context was Mordant saying that some people practiced a very pointless, faddish, shallow type of "magic" and when challenged in a more engaged place like the Temple, ran back to their miniature LJ communities to lick their wounds and complain.

Below, Mordant says something apparently similar:

Taking a quick shufti at my Nettie/English dictionary, I get: I wanted to get up on my hind legs and spout off without being challenged. I am now being called on my shit and it gives me a funny feeling in my tummy. You're mean. Why can't you be more like my Lj friends list?

ie. LJ is a safe place where people who are challenged abotu their magical practice on Barbelith can go back and have their egos stroked by a bunch of loyal followers.

Which seems to make sense, to be honest, as from what I understand LJ is a place where a person can control who reads and responds to their regular posts.
 
 
Bear
23:07 / 30.03.07
I think the real question is why don't you have a livejournal yet wonderstarr...
 
 
Lugue
23:10 / 30.03.07
I get your point, but I'm still not sure what you say entails an anti-LJ stance. The criticism seems to be aimed at a specific use of LJ as a space where issues that should be discussed may remain static and sanitized according to one's immediate view. It seems an issue with how one deals with opinion, rather than with LJ in and of itself. But that's for Mordant to say if she wants to, and probably even for another thread.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:20 / 30.03.07
So, that's just Mordant, but then Haus also posted on this thread implying that wish-fulfilment role-playing was more suitable to LJ, so there are two big figures (to me) both apparently suggesting LiveJournal is for self-indulgent wankery, really.

Not really - basically, Franca has nailed it. If people want to simulate sex in the guise of teenaged ruffians, I think LiveJournal is a good place to do it, because it can be screened to let those who want to view or participate do so, and not force those who do not wish to do so. One can then further join communities which will allow one to share an interest in such fantasy sexual roleplay, if one wishes to find other activity partners.

You're right, by the way - one can control who can see a post on one's LiveJournal, and also delete comments to that post, or the post itself, at will.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:53 / 30.03.07
That Sarah Michelle Vampire Slayer, though, eh?

Perhaps if I work really hard now, and get mysef a car, a flat and some clothes before I'm too old, she might impale my heart with her stake one day!

What does anyone think?

Because I don't think I can live in a world where that isn't at least a possibility.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:55 / 31.03.07
I think the real question is why don't you have a livejournal yet wonderstarr...

I did... in 2002-4! So mid-Noughties.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
14:26 / 31.03.07

Really? It makes me feel like I'm on a board with a bunch of university-educated middle-class people, largely in their twenties and early thirties, from aping what they imagine da yoof are like. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, like watching your uncle talk about how his neighbourhood has gone downhill, with voices.


Hm. I'm honestly not too sure about this, in that as far as I can tell, the "voices" here are expressing (fairly horrible) attitudes, rather than, say, anecdotes about "throwing up outside Primark". Moreover, I can cite numerous examples of young men, "Normal Blokes", if you will, who talk exactly like this on the internet (and in real life), except for with a little more misogyny and homophobia. Full disclosure - I'm a 20-year old male, who went to A Major Single-Sex Grammar School, and currently attend An Ex-Left-Wing College at Oxford University. And therefore qualify for the Privileged Background &c box Haus has defined. Therefore, I feel qualified to say that numerous people who share these privileges to the letter, and are, not to mince words, mostly considerably better off than I, do, in fact talk like this. Without wanting to use the word "excuse", these people have had an intensive education and all the privileges of upper-middle-class wealth.
They think of themselves as Normal Blokes, and they post like this on the internet*. Therefore I'm confused as to how this thread can be seen as class-based satire/comedy/whatever.

However, having said that, having a bit of barbelith where misogynist fictionthings, however temporary, interact with female id'd posters, does make me sick up in my mouth a bit ('specially the stuff with Olulabelle). Possibly this goes in the same box as "comedy racism", where people (including myself, on occasion, and I'm not proud of it to say the least) attempt ham-fistedly to satirise racists by adopting their speech patterns with increasingly obvious slurs, and as such is Bad because it involves having an uncritical arena for hatespeech, which people can come across and be affected regardless of original comedic intent.
In short, I like id's concept for the thread the best, but I don't think what we're looking at is necessarily "chav humour".


*Furthermore, these are the chaps What Beat Me Up At School. Purely in the interests of full disclosure.
 
 
HCE
14:39 / 31.03.07
Are we totally derailed by the 'accents' (in quotes because I'm not sure that's the right word for it) now? I went back and re-read the first page and until Princess Swashbuckling and Miss Wonderstarr started in with the accents it was going in an interesting direction. I could've sworn there was a thread about accents, but can't recall where I saw it. If anybody knows, perhaps we could branch discussion of PS & MW's comments and the commentary that followed off there, and get this thread back to the original topic.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:40 / 31.03.07
wonderstarr: I has a lievjournal. And to be quite honest one of the things I do use it for is to get affirmation and support from likeminded people. I think the important part is not not having something so tacky as an Lj account, it's being willing to engage in a different way when you're in different spaces. One's own Lj tends (give or take a troll) to be a much less stringent place than the B.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:02 / 31.03.07
Miss Wonderstarr started in with the accents

It wasn't an "accent" ~ or at least, not an accent different from my own. I thought many people were agreeing on this thread that the textual "voice" I was adopting is actually very widespread online and not necessarily associated with youth or working class, or lack of education, or a specific geographical region. If anything, it is a careless voice (in that the sentences aren't thoughtfully-crafted or redrafted) and a safe voice (in that online I feel it's pretty common and generic, so it isn't going to stand out on most internet fora.)
 
  

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