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Cross-cultural misunderstandings

 
  

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Princess
17:01 / 29.03.07
The nearest thing I can think of was this South Africs guy I knew. He used to just grab women, even passing strangers in clubs. And cat-calls, so many cat-calls.

I told him he was being a wanker, he said "I'm sorry, I'm South African". I'm pretty sure that it was foolishness/misogyny rather than a real cultural misunderstanding though.
 
 
grant
17:14 / 29.03.07
I'll add that in my experiences in China, most people seemed really, peculiarly delighted by young children

Is this really that peculiar to China? Cooing over ickle babies and the hilarious things children do seems pretty common in, for example, the UK, too...


Oh, it's more than that. Hard to explain, really, but, like, well... hmmm. There's the nian hua thing (they're *everywhere*, and have been produced continuously since the 1600s), and there's the Chinese granny police (if you dare walk outside with a small child in an open jacket and there's a cool breeze, you will be scolded by whatever older woman happens to be walking by. Scolded as the woman bends to bundle up the child. In your arms.) And yes, in China, waitresses are sort of expected to scoop up your kids and take them away while you eat. Small children are much more... public, maybe. Everyone is responsible for them, everyone has a right to them.

Oh, here's another thing -- in Beijing, I took a tour of the hutongs, the old neighborhoods. One of the stops was a kindergarten and primary school. Tourists were brought around inside to see the classrooms and play with the little kids. This is not something you'd see a tour group do in Florida in a million years -- if an adult is seen on school grounds while classes are in session, he or she gets arrested for trespassing and fined.

It's completely behavioral/cultural, so I'm not sure race enters into it.

That said, this phrase:
The Chinese are usually very respectful and (IMHO) almost childishly delighted with anything we offer them (soft drinks, cigarettes, magazines, newspapers etc).
kind of freaks me out. It's the "almost childishly" that does it. %The poor simple dears,% you know.

But that also illustrates the problem with cross-cultural miscommunication.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
17:14 / 29.03.07
Princess, may I ask if you ever enquired further to him on this, as to just why being South African necessarily = incurable lech, or more reasonably did you decide it was not worth the bother? Just interested to learn what he might have replied, as I've met many expatriate (white*) South Africans and not one has exhibited the behaviour you describe in my presence.

*I admit I was making the huge assumption that he was white. Please correct me as needed.
 
 
grant
17:21 / 29.03.07
Several of the South African women of my acquaintance would have removed such a man's arms. (Although not all. I suppose that "not all" would be true, although less so, for the American women of my acquaintance as well.)
 
 
Princess
17:28 / 29.03.07
I just stopped talking to the guy. I assumed that he as talking bollocks.
 
 
grant
17:50 / 29.03.07
So he kept his arms?
 
 
Princess
17:53 / 29.03.07
Upsettingly, a lot of the girls just seemed a bit shocked. Most of them didn't even complain. I found it a bit depressing to be honest.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:38 / 29.03.07
It'd be hard to love someone you feel is racially inferior to you, I'd imagine.

Aside from the "racially," S.E., I would have to suspect that the majority of marriages throughout history* and across the world have been between a man and his presumed inferior(s).


*Except in recent years, of course, misogyny and scorn of women being things of the distant past.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:34 / 29.03.07
Most of them didn't even complain.

No fucking point. Guys who act like that aren't going to change if you challenge them, and you risk incurring worse verbal abuse (and maybe physical assault) if you do so. In his world he has a perfect right to carry on demeaning and harrassing women; any female protesting this is infringing that right and is also stepping outside of the role he's assigned her, making her a target for whatever punitive measures he chooses to dole out.
 
 
ibis the being
22:46 / 29.03.07
the mothers - one or two of whom have been making almost hysterical demands

(I do love this use of the word "almost.")

In addition to all of the above, there go those women again, getting all hysterical. Come on ladies, get ahold of your unruly uteruses, will you please? Sheesh.
 
 
HCE
22:52 / 29.03.07
That explains why my knee has been collapsing -- my fucking uterus has floated into it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:02 / 29.03.07
My uterus stole my credit cards and ran away to Marrakech. Fucker never even writes.
 
 
grant
03:21 / 30.03.07
Be fair -- without you, the poor thing doesn't have any hands....
 
 
Princess
09:47 / 30.03.07
Prehensile fallopians?
 
 
grant
13:52 / 30.03.07
I suppose it could type....
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:03 / 30.03.07
Czech Republic, few years ago, college trip, hotel bar. I ask for some drink in English, and suddenly realize, from the barmaid's look, that I've quite upset her - and that she wouldn't normally show it, but it's the end of a hard day, and here I am pointing and saying ONE OF THOSE PLEASE, when actually, the name of all the drinks is printed in Latin letters on the bottles, and I only had to try to pronounce it. Which I did, at which point several other Czechs descended for an impromptu language lesson. All ended up quite swimmingly.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:59 / 30.03.07
Aside from the "racially," S.E., I would have to suspect that the majority of marriages throughout history* and across the world have been between a man and his presumed inferior(s).

Well, yeah, but there's a whole level to excavate here before we get into history. What Sole Eater has answered with:

Do I understand that I'm to be labelled racist then? Surely that's a bit extreme. Brash, loud, insensitive, ignorant, Yes! Arrogant even. But I cite my (second) marriage to a half Sri Lankan, half Indian woman (now ended, amicably) and our 14 year old daughter of mingled blood (mine includes Danish, German, Arab, Jewish, Irish and Scottish) as placing me fairly and squarely outside the racist box. It'd be hard to love someone you feel is racially inferior to you, I'd imagine.

A statement that doesn't exist. There is an excluded middle where nobody has actually said "and this evinces racism, which is defined here as the feeling that people of another other race are racially inferior to you". I don't think that's exactly right. Does the description of the Chinese shipworkers as naive or childlike come from a clear and immanent belief in their racial inferiority? No. It may, however, still very comfortably be identified as a sign of a questionable perception of people which may well be tied in to perceptions of their race.

Recently, a friend of mine was part of a discussion about an action seen by many as racist taken by one of her colleagues. At the end of this, during which discussion the colleague maintained strenuously that he was not in any way a racist, he had not a racist bone in his body, any suggestion that race played any part n his actions was utterly mistaken, she wanted to ask him "so, how did you do it? I'm x years old, and in those x years I'm sure I have developed some attitudes around race that aren't entirely healthy, and that I'm not even aware of. How did you manage to stop any of that stuff happening to you? How have you race-proofed your brain".

However, nobody wants to say "well, I may have some ingrained attitudes to race, but I try to work hard on confronting them, and yes, it's possible that this particular line of thought has been affected by some unexamined attitudes I have about Indians, Chinese people or indeed my co-workers", because that does put one in a position of considerable weakness. So, yeah. Maybe it has to be taken that "I am not a racist" comes to mean something like "What I am saying now does not to my knowledge come from a racist place. but I'm not going to lose it if that possibility is suggested". It's the issue of thoughts, words, actions and motivations.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
20:16 / 30.03.07
"so, how did you do it? I'm x years old, and in those x years I'm sure I have developed some attitudes around race that aren't entirely healthy, and that I'm not even aware of. How did you manage to stop any of that stuff happening to you? How have you race-proofed your brain".

This formulation of Haus's friend's is so simple and brilliant that if everyone who reads it gets involved in a similar argument at some point in the near future and doesn't employ it, a vital opportunity will have been wasted. If I could trust myself to use it without sounding as if I'm resorting to my default sarcastic interrogatory mode, I certainly wouldn't hesitate.
 
 
Quantum
15:28 / 31.03.07
I still want to know who got to spear the bottle dude.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:49 / 31.03.07
Yeah, I mean do you hand the injured party a pointy stick or is there an officially-sanctioned spear guy whose job it is to inflict this ugly and barbaric punishment?
 
 
Quantum
19:28 / 31.03.07
I bet it was her dad or brother or someone. Which seems unfair, if someone bottled me I'd want to exact vengeance personally rather than have some male relatives fighting to put it right. Smacks of women-as-property to me.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:56 / 31.03.07
I am not comfortable with the idea of cold-bloodedly inflicting a severe and lasting injury on someone who is no longer an immediate threat. I mean, yeah, you might want to do stuff like that. But that doesn't make it okay.
 
 
crimson
23:28 / 03.04.07
So, Im not so sure about the chinese culture but if japanese is anything to go by then I would say it would be perfectly normal for the crew to take photos of foreign children. People in Japan are totally fascinated by foreigners and by their physical and cultural differences. I live in a town of 60 000 and I am one of five foreigners. I imagine that in China too, foreign people are something of a rarity. In the major cities there are always large foreign populations but Japan is a big country and transport is expensive and many people dont ever travel as far as the major cities in their lives. Id say in my town, this would count for the large proportion of the population. I think that this isolation counts for the fascination.

In terms of the british fears of adult/child contact. Its different in japan. Maybe this is because there is a low crime rate, because newspapers dont really report crimes, maybe because theres little if not zero sensational reporting but everyday I see five year olds trotting off by themselves to school with their rucksacks on their backs. I see very young unsupervised children all the time...theres very little perceived threat in my quaint and isolated but not so little community. There is still a LOT of innocence. Most people in Japan live in communities like this.

I think that in Britians climate of both internationalisation and sensationalist reporting we forget how weird it can be to see someone of a different race and we have forgotten some innocence.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:12 / 04.04.07
Im not so sure about the chinese culture but if japanese is anything to go by

Stop right there. Why would any of the mores of what you're calling 'Japanese culture' shed any light on the cultural mores of an extremely large, diverse region on a different continent with a completely separate set of histories, political systems, languages, religious traditions and so on?

It's already come up in this thread, but one of the most stereotypical misunderstandings it's possible to make is to assume two really different cultural traditions are the same, or similar, just because they're both 'Asian' cultures.

Frankly, when people do that, I most certainly feel insulted and outraged. And I guess, since I'm Anglo but I don't make those assumptions, I'm from 'another culture'. There, I'm telling, just like it says on the thread summary.

(Leaving aside the whole problematic assumption of this thread, that people can have such a thing as a singular, monolithic 'culture', anything outside of which will be met with hostility, or at the very least an internal 'check' to see whether this difference can be approved of, exoticised, condescended to, or whether it should outrage one.)
 
 
grant
03:42 / 04.04.07
Why would any of the mores of what you're calling 'Japanese culture' shed any light on the cultural mores of an extremely large, diverse region on a different continent with a completely separate set of histories, political systems, languages, religious traditions and so on?

Well... in general, I agree with what you're saying, but in the case of Japan and China, it's a little more complicated. The histories and political systems aren't exactly completely different -- for a good bit of the 20th century, a large chunk of eastern China (the most populous part) was politically part of Japan, and for hundreds of years previous, they'd sort of alternated roles as colonizer and colonized. As a result, there are lots of traditions and practices in common -- holidays like Lunar New Year, Buddhism & Confucianism, it's rude to stick your chopsticks up and down in your rice bowl because it looks like incense at a grave.... There are plenty of differences, too -- that whole samurai "sword saint" business, different spoken language (although the written is nnnearly the same). But, I dunno -- I'm not sure it's possible to talk about culture at all without some level of generalizing.

This is starting to make me think about the Cultural Revolution, too, since that was one expression of the Maoist tendency to make China monolithic rather than lots of little places with not much in common besides shared borders and a bureaucracy ruled from Beijing. I doubt that would be enough to change the way people (in aggregate) behaved around kids.
 
 
crimson
05:14 / 04.04.07
yeah you are absolutely right. China and japan are amazingly different. They are totally different countries after all.

I think, however, youre missing the point.

My point can be stretched to include any area where internal transpost is through the roof expensive, where the majority of people are farmers on low incomes and where crime rates are really low and newspaper reporting doesnt sensationalise. My experience is that rural Japan is like this and from what I hear about the people who have visited and lived in rural china, they say the same thing.

thats the point. Ill aim to be more clear in future.
 
 
crimson
05:39 / 04.04.07
thats not to say,however, Grant that you are not right!! There is definitely a really great fascination and interest in Japan with Chinese and Korean cultures, and yes, this is because there are some cultural similarities due to the kind of shared histories.

I think that my point can be stretched to include rural areas within the UK in the 1960s when crime rates were lower and newspapers reported things more respectfully and when transport was more expensive and so there were less global tourists and arguably not as many people from outside visiting communities.

I wonder if, Disco, you did get around to reading the rest of the post or if you read the first sentence and responded with a "hold it right there"?

Anyway...to change the point someewhat. In Japan I have been outraged when my colleagues repeatedly come to talk to me and read my work over my shoulder...grr! also its fine for guys to touch unmarried ladies way too familiarly for my liking...I know that no insult is inherent but Ive been brought up to not appreciate it and its difficult to keep quiet when I know that the only proper thing to do is to keep quiet about it....

also, Ive had girls checking out my boobs with much interest, which never happens in the UK, being touched up like, how do they feel? :s....yeah...its shocking....its true...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:34 / 04.04.07
The only down element with this thesis, I think, is that Sole Eater is based on Groote Eylandt, which has a total population of about 15,000 people. It's not rural, exactly, in the way that my idyllic Constable-country childhood was rural, but it's not exactly heaving, either...
 
 
Whisky Priestess
09:07 / 04.04.07
Aside:

Haus, are we to assume from your first post that Sole Eater has some "previous" on the board w/r/t attitudes towards other races which you consider to be dodgy (the attitudes, not the races)?

If so, could you cite hir former transgressions? If not, you appear to be jumping down hir throat when ze has barely opened hir mouth, and it's not entirely clear why.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:11 / 04.04.07
Haus first post seems an entirely proportionate reaction to Sole Eater's first post - in fact I think he's talking about racial prejudice on the part of the community, not Sole Eater (who has previous on liking to shoot things and talking about his "stupid bitch" of an ex-wife, but not much else unless I forget).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:53 / 04.04.07
Well, quite. I was bringing attention to the way that terminology is slippery - that the actions of "an Indian crew" were in fact the actions of three people on an Indian ship, for the actions of whom the people of Groote Eylandt then punished the entire ship's crew. The sliding between "three members of an Indian ship's crew", "the Indian ship's crew" and "the Indians" was the point, with reference both to this discussion and the discussion that presumably took place at the time these people were apprehended.

So, you could assume that SE has "previous" on attitudes to race, WP, but to the best of my knowledge you would be incorrect in doing so. My response was not based on any such, at least.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:22 / 04.04.07
WP, did the phrasing of SE's posts and the actions detailed in them not ring any alarm bells for you at all?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:12 / 04.04.07
I wonder if anyone who's trying to promote the gentle arts of literature, drama or dance shouldn't be taken off-board and whipped to within an inch of hir life by a cat of nine tails, myself.

Ze'd like it, I suspect. And so would Tom.

Actually all of you would do.

All of you would.

All of you.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:43 / 04.04.07
Do you really want to know what I think of that response?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:49 / 04.04.07
Of course!
 
  

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