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Cross-cultural misunderstandings

 
  

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Sole Eater
23:26 / 28.03.07
Unsure if this belongs here or in the Head Shop. Mods, please move if you wish.

All the Bulk Ore Carriers that berth here carry foreign crews, 80 percent of whom are Chinese. Every now and then our little community is rocked by a report of crews on shore leave behaving in an inappropriate manner.

Just the other day we had a group of Chinese visitors clustered around the gates of our day care facility taking photos of the children inside. Given this era of political correctness and percieved stranger danger, the whole town was all set to stage a lynching. The police were called and escorted the crew back to the ship, henceforth banning this particular crew from coming ashore again and lodging a Letter of Protest with the ships owners.

The next step is to lodge a complaint with the international ships grading agencies i.e. Rightship. The probability is that this ship won't be allowed to berth at any other ports operated by my employer worldwide. Many other companies and ports refer to these agencies so the ship may now face severe ostracisation globally.

Is this too much? Could it be that the crews were merely indulging the Chinese (I hate to generalise with "Asian") fascination with blonde hair?

This follows an incident about 3 months ago when an Indian crew were caught in the coffee shop taking upskirt photos of schoolgirls with their mobile phones. So the community is very touchy about foreign crews but I can't help but feel that the Chinese crew in question had no malicious intent and were villified because of the actions of the Indian crew.

Thoughts? Feelings?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:36 / 28.03.07
This follows an incident about 3 months ago when an Indian crew were caught in the coffee shop taking upskirt photos of schoolgirls with their mobile phones.

What, the entire crew? About a dozen officers and 30 or so crew?

That seems unlikely. So, assuming that it was indeed unlikely, it sounds like racial prejudice affected the treatment of the Indian crew, and racial prejudice affected the treatment of the Chinese crew as well.
 
 
grant
00:04 / 29.03.07
It may have a racial component (I'm sure it did), but I'm not entirely sure a Brazilian crew acting the same way would be treated terribly differently -- largish groups of grownups clustering around groups of small children with cameras is a thing that tends to drive parents batty, unless it's at some kind of preschool function. So there's definitely a cultural component of some sort, even if it's just a language barrier.

I'll add that in my experiences in China, most people seemed really, peculiarly delighted by young children (there's a whole genre of chubby baby folk art, for instance, and it's very common for adult passers by to interact with small children) and were prone to cluster in tight groups, which can be physically intimidating to folks (like me) used to orderly queues and elbow room.

Whether that kind of cultural behavior can be viewed as a part of "race" or not is probably an open question.
 
 
Sole Eater
00:13 / 29.03.07
No Haus, not the whole crew. I probably should have phrased it: "members of an Indian crewed ship" or some such.

I don't think racism comes into it. Our community consists of perhaps 1500 caucasians, 1500 Anindilyakwa, and perhaps another 200 of various backgrounds including Tongans, Indonesians, Philipinos, Malays, and a large contingent of South Africans. Bearing all this cultural diversity in mind, people here are very race-aware and racial vilification almost unheard of.

A certain level of resentment is held by some of the indigenies toward the minesite and those who work there but that's quite prevalent throughout Australia wherever the two cultures come together at a significant level, and usually merges into the background noise. Fairly understandable too from my point of view.

I feel that the Chinese crew were acting fairly innocently and were lumbered with the suspicion hangover from the Indians.
 
 
Sole Eater
00:22 / 29.03.07
Grant:I'll add that in my experiences in China, most people seemed really, peculiarly delighted by young children...

That's kind of what I was getting at. The Chinese are usually very respectful and (IMHO) almost childishly delighted with anything we offer them (soft drinks, cigarettes, magazines, newspapers etc). It's hard for me to reconcile their stereotype with a group acting in a sinister manner.

All ships' captains are given a briefing on acceptable and non-acceptable behaviour on Groote Eylandt, given the cultural sensitivety of the Eylandt. Each master must give an undetaking that his crew will be fully compliant with the guidelines laid out.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:29 / 29.03.07
I feel that the Chinese crew were acting fairly innocently and were lumbered with the suspicion hangover from the Indians.

You mean, the very small number of members of the crew of an Indian ship? Again?
 
 
Sole Eater
00:37 / 29.03.07
Haus: You mean, the very small number of members of the crew of an Indian ship? Again?

Yes, that's what I mean. The Indians.
 
 
ibis the being
00:40 / 29.03.07
The Chinese are usually very respectful and (IMHO) almost childishly delighted with anything we offer them (soft drinks, cigarettes, magazines, newspapers etc).

Cringe, cringey cringington.
 
 
Tsuga
00:52 / 29.03.07
Hey Sole Eater, I'm sure you realize that Haus is currently obliquely poking at the fact that you are using your words a bit ineffectively. You can't assume that people reading your words that aren't very familiar with you are going to understand that you aren't prejudiced. Or maybe you are. See, nobody really knows all of the nuances of your personal beliefs or ethics or intellect. Hence the cringing, also. So, you've got to just be more thorough with your sentences, or you come off as not that thought out, and that is the kind of thing that will get poked at and addressed here.
Night.
 
 
stabbystabby
01:15 / 29.03.07
referring to a small number of people who happen to be Indian as "the Indians" says more about your attitudes to race than your concerns about racial politics. that is, associating a small example of aberrant behaviour with an entire racial group is racist.
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
01:36 / 29.03.07
Is this too much? Could it be that the crews were merely indulging the Chinese (I hate to generalise with "Asian") fascination with blonde hair?

or that tourists/people visiting foreign countries in general just like taking pictures? =)
 
 
Sole Eater
01:57 / 29.03.07
Cringiness admitted. I'll try to be more PC in future. I thought I had established the fact that I was talking about the group not the race. Do I need to qualify my delineation each time? That would certainly become stilted and clumsy.

dr mcstabby: referring to a small number of people who happen to be Indian as "the Indians" says more about your attitudes to race than your concerns about racial politics. that is, associating a small example of aberrant behaviour with an entire racial group is racist.

Do I understand that I'm to be labelled racist then? Surely that's a bit extreme. Brash, loud, insensitive, ignorant, Yes! Arrogant even. But I cite my (second) marriage to a half Sri Lankan, half Indian woman (now ended, amicably) and our 14 year old daughter of mingled blood (mine includes Danish, German, Arab, Jewish, Irish and Scottish) as placing me fairly and squarely outside the racist box. It'd be hard to love someone you feel is racially inferior to you, I'd imagine.
 
 
Sole Eater
02:02 / 29.03.07
laoi: or that tourists/people visiting foreign countries in general just like taking pictures? =)

That's very true laoi. But I don't think this would have blown out to such a drama if they had been snapping shots of our town square (such as it is hahaha).
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
02:10 / 29.03.07
Sole Eater, I'm sorry you're living in a community where the people are so paranoid about strangers that they'd be prepared to lynch a group of visitors for taking photos, whether or not their paranoia is in any way related to race. Is there anyone you can voice your misgivings to, who might be able to intervene on the crew's behalf?

I appreciate your attempt to look at the incident from a more open-minded viewpoint than that of other members of your community. I think what people here are noticing is that, in an effort to de-vilify the crew, you seem to be imposing another set of stereotypes on them: innocent, childish, respectful--these are all aspects of a long standing stereotype of East Asians (we are sometimes referred to as the "model minority"), which in the end brings you no closer to understanding the crew than your colleagues who label them as malicious and ban them from shore leave.

Also--marriage/any sort of proximity to a minority does not automatically clear you or anyone else of racism, conscious or unconscious. Stereotypes we are raised with are difficult to get around. It might be interesting to look at some of the comments in this thread about interracial adoption--I'm thinking specifically of some of the things persephone said about cultural acquisition through human acquisition, which apply to relationships as well as adoption.
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
02:18 / 29.03.07
and, lest that seem hostile, I should note that I'm not accusing you of trying to use your ex-wife to make yourself ethnic. The racial discussion therein simply seemed relevant.
 
 
Sole Eater
02:50 / 29.03.07
No offense taken laoi. I find your comments relevant and informative.

The big problem is that the previously indicated Indians have left a sour taste in the mouths of the people here, particularly the mothers - one or two of whom have been making almost hysterical demands that all crews be banned from shore leave. I am inclined to place a fair portion of the media at fault for this. With all the chequebook journalism from shows like 60 Minutes and A Current Affair, it's no wonder we have been overly sensatised to paedophiles, dodgy roof plumbers and shonky aged carers. I feel that, as a society, we are now being convinced that these monsters are lurking behind every bush.

One of the best things about having children here is that they can roam about without the parents worrying whether they are being offered boiled lollies or being run over by a speeding drunk. I'd really hate this cynicism to spread throughout this community.
 
 
Dead Megatron
03:09 / 29.03.07
It may have a racial component (I'm sure it did), but I'm not entirely sure a Brazilian crew acting the same way would be treated terribly differently

Well, A Brazilian crew would be very unlikely to cluster around a day-care center taking pictures of young children (we're not more fascinated by the subject than, say, American people would be, I guess).

The cell-phone upskirt pic incident described here in relation to an Indian crew, on the other hand, would be more likely to happen, in which case your question does apply.
 
 
HCE
05:27 / 29.03.07
I'll try to be more PC in future.

I don't understand. PC as in not-Mac, or PC as in any type of personal computer?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:31 / 29.03.07
What laoi said; the "simple, childlike, innocent, beaming Chinese people" stuff being uncritically perpetuated here makes the question intrinsically pointless, or rather ludicrous based on the terms being offered here.

So. A group of people may have done something unacceptable while on shore leave. To make it about them being a particular race is pretty dodgy. To allow that to affect how a group of people of a totally different race are treated? Also pretty dodgy. On the other hand, not to hold one group to the same standard as another because, on the grounds of their race, they are somehow childishly unable to resist blonde hair? Dodgy.

It sounds to me as if members of one crew's actions are being judged because of actions taken by members of a previous crew. It sounds as if a number of racial assumptions are being made all over the place about the likely cause of those actions, and quite possibly also their responses. The short version must presumably be whether the latter crew were breaking the law. If so, it makes sense to send them back to the ship, if not, it does not. From there, you are talking about mitigation. I imagine that somebody on the island must have a language in common with the men on the boat, so that might be useful.

For more on PC, try here. Generally, it is not the argument-winner here that it is elsewhere, especially not if one has recently called a woman a stupid bitch, which statement people may still have in mind.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:47 / 29.03.07
Well, yeah. It's not like any of us who read that post find it difficult to believe Sole Eater could have a relationship with someone he considered inferior.

Just the other day we had a group of Chinese visitors clustered around the gates of our day care facility taking photos of the children inside. Given this era of political correctness and percieved stranger danger, the whole town was all set to stage a lynching.

Followed by:

I'll try to be more PC in future.

There's a kind of sick fascination in watching someone who believes that such a thing as "political correctness" exists tie themselves into nonsensical knots, and here we are again. Surely if "political correctness" involves some kind of knee-jerk opposition to racism or even the possibility of racism, as I suspect you think it does, then "political correctness" would make the local community less likely, not more, to want to "stage a lynching".
 
 
stabbystabby
10:02 / 29.03.07
Do I understand that I'm to be labelled racist then? Not necessarily. But that is racist behaviour, intentional or not.

But I cite my (second) marriage to a half Sri Lankan, half Indian woman (now ended, amicably) and our 14 year old daughter of mingled blood (mine includes Danish, German, Arab, Jewish, Irish and Scottish) as placing me fairly and squarely outside the racist box. It'd be hard to love someone you feel is racially inferior to you, I'd imagine.

to that, i would point out that the dynamics of numerous (not all!) cross cultural marriages, particularly of white men to Asian women, tend to provide evidence that marriage to someone of a different race certainly does not absolve you of racism. the common incidence of slave owners fathering children with their slaves also belies this notion.

Being a descendant of various races also does not absolve you. multiracial people can and are just as racist as everyone else.

lastly, we don't put much stock in 'PC' debates here. if you want to be taken seriously, be respectful and accurate. For a primer on why 'PC' is a big pile o' shit, click [here].
 
 
illmatic
10:18 / 29.03.07
McStabby: Your link isn't working.

There's a very interesting and admirable honest post here from Seth, trying to process some of the cultural baggae that comes with cross-racial attraction. I'm not saying this is applicable to your situation at all*, Sole Eater, obviously, but I thought it was a very interesting attempt to grapple with the compleixities of these issues.

As for myself, I'm mixed race but look white. I think it's a bit absurd to claim on the basis of my ethnicity that I never have a racist thought. This things are big and broader than me and my genetics.

*I want to be quite clear on that - I'm not reducing the relationships of someone I don't know down to "othering".
 
 
stabbystabby
10:47 / 29.03.07
really? link works for me - maybe some kindly mod fixed it? here it is again anyway.
 
 
Quantum
11:23 / 29.03.07
Could it be that the crews were merely indulging the Chinese (I hate to generalise with "Asian") fascination with blonde hair?

Jesus Christ, you hate to generalise? Doesn't look that way to me. Those wacky Chinese and their fascination with blonde hair are getting blamed for what the Indians did you say, gosh how unfair. It's almost as if people are generalising based on the crew's foreignness (despite the multicultural racism-free utopia you inhabit) rather than gauging their behaviour on it's own merits.
Sole Eater, I strongly recommend you have a read of those links provided before discussing racism and PC too much more here. Barbelith is not like other places, you'll probably find us very touchy and unreasonably concerned with use of language (like 'bitch') and find yourself accused of racism when of course you're not racist because your ex-wife is half sri lankan.
 
 
Quantum
11:27 / 29.03.07
Here's an example; Yes, that's what I mean. The Indians. To you that might sound fine, to me that sounds like you defining people only by their race. Which is a bit, dunno, racist? Just saying.
 
 
Spaniel
11:29 / 29.03.07
And the other thing to bear in mind about racism is that none of us are immune. We need to police ourselves as much as we police others. So if people suggest that you are being racist or expressing prejudices don't leap to the conclusion that it is necessarily an attack.

I have never met anyone I consider to be without prejudice - the question is whether you're prepared to take ownership of 'em, and work to counter them on a daily basis.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:30 / 29.03.07
Just to show we're not just hating on the newbie - I'm also not at all convinced by what grant said:

I'll add that in my experiences in China, most people seemed really, peculiarly delighted by young children

Is this really that peculiar to China? Cooing over ickle babies and the hilarious things children do seems pretty common in, for example, the UK, too...
 
 
Spaniel
11:35 / 29.03.07
I'd say we're pathologically obsessed by the shrilldren in the UK, although I'm prepared to believe that other cultures obsessions could manifest differently to our own, and some of those differences might be to do with social interaction.
 
 
Chiropteran
12:24 / 29.03.07
Is this really that peculiar to China? Cooing over ickle babies and the hilarious things children do seems pretty common in, for example, the UK, too...

Cooing over babies isn't particularly Chinese, of course, but I have noticed in my admittedly limited associations with members of the local Chinese immigrant community that at least these particular individuals are far less, I don't know, "hands-off" about children than would be typical among the general US population - case in point, several times we have watched on as a Chinese waitress has picked my young son up out of his highchair to hug him, even walking him over to the kitchen doors to show him off to the other staff, all without asking his parents. Things like that are simply Not Done here - touching someone else's child without permission like that is absolutely off-limits.

If these personal observations can, in fact*, be generalized, I wouldn't say it's a "race" thing, at all, but a difference in the culturally-defined boundaries of what is acceptable interaction with other peoples' children. Taking pictures of cute preschool children who you don't know, just because they're cute preschool children, makes sense in that context, as does the concern (even outrage) of the parents.

*and I don't suggest that they necessarily can, based on this insufficient data
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:08 / 29.03.07
Wouldn't it be more productive to have this be a thread where, rather than Ever been insulted/outraged at what someone from another culture considered fair? Do tell... we talk about how our culture might have insulted other people? I can think of far more instances of that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:32 / 29.03.07
Taking pictures of cute preschool children who you don't know, just because they're cute preschool children, makes sense in that context, as does the concern (even outrage) of the parents.

Which is where, to come back to the original example, we get into what is structurally rather than socially permissable. If somebody pets my dog without asking, I may be annoyed by it, but I cannot sue them, or have them imprisoned. So, essentially, my question would be whether regardless of their childish, innocent culture it was right to respond by returning them to the ship and registering these official complaints, however far they might go. If not, then the culture thing is a red herring, unless that wrong response was based on racism. If yes, then at that point possibly a breakdown of cultural communication becomes relevant as a mitigating factor. I can understand the people on the ground not sharing a language, but as I said above, presumably _someone_ does...
 
 
Kirin? Who the heck?
16:35 / 29.03.07
Without knowing much about the incident with the crew members taking photos at the day care, I'm inclined to believe that it truly was something that those crew members didn't realise they shouldn't be doing. That's probably due to my generally trusting nature (in my opinion, most things aren't done maliciously). I think it's unlikely that the crew's pre-shore leave briefing included anything like 'oh, by the way, people here are super protective of their children, so no snaps, okay?', but again, I can't really speak for this incident. On the other hand, the crew taking upskirt shots were definitely, undeniably lacking (what I think is) basic respect for other people's right to remain unmolested.

Either way, your community saw their actions as unacceptable behaviour (as they are within their rights to). The issue for your community is one of whether to take those bad experiences with the day care and the coffee shop and generalise to either all ships' crews or all the people from a certain country/ethnicity, or to see it as unfortunate, but (presumably) rare.

Sadly, it sounds like they're going with the generalisation ('[the mothers] have been making almost hysterical demands that all crews be banned from shore leave.') to all ships' crews, which seems to me a gross overreaction -- as does the banning of the crew from the day care, really, if it was their first offence. I'd be more in favour of ensuring that they know that their actions are unacceptable and giving them another chance.

I'd agree that, if there aren't more general problems being caused by crews on shore leave of which these two incidents are merely symptomatic, then action may have to be taken by the community to ensure its continued overall cohesion. But if not, and possibly even if they are, I think there's probably a better way than an outright ban.
 
 
Chiropteran
16:37 / 29.03.07
So, essentially, my question would be whether regardless of their childish, innocent culture it was right to respond by returning them to the ship and registering these official complaints, however far they might go.

The culture issue*, as I see it, is relevant insofar as whether or not the individuals in question would have had prior reason to expect that what they were doing (i.e. taking pictures of children) would cause offense or alarm, which in turn might (ideally) inform the response - was it a deliberate misdeed, with sinister overtones (as the concerned citizens mentioned above seem to believe), or a cultural misunderstanding to be talked over (e.g. simply letting the people involved know that such things aren't allowed here, now you know, etc.).

As for filing formal complaints, I think some kind of notice to the ship asking them to inform their crews of the problem, to avoid difficulties in the future, seems appropriate. The police call and shore ban seems excessive, assuming we're hearing the whole story, and by the time things get to the grading agencies, it's just ridiculous. Was race a factor? We don't have enough information to be more than suspicious - it's the easiest assumption, based on overwhelming precedent, but even when race isn't an issue, people do still get extremely defensive of their children, and simple incidents can snowball very quickly (e.g. filing complaints with regulatory agencies directly instead of working things out with local management, or more generally interpreting rather than asking).

Where race really comes into play is whether or not this incident with a particular Chinese crew affects the local population's feelings and behavior towards other Chinese crews in the future (as distinct from a general suspicion of "sailors," say).

*and it should go without saying that a culture need be neither "childish" nor "innocent" to have generally a more relaxed attitude about children - that stereotype is a red herring
 
 
Chiropteran
16:43 / 29.03.07
The police call and shore ban seems excessive,

To be clear, I mean the original shore leave ban for the particular crew in question, not the proposed ban on all shore leave, which (in the absence of other problems, as Kirin says) is ludicrously excessive.
 
 
Chiropteran
16:52 / 29.03.07
Also (sorry):

Wouldn't it be more productive to have this be a thread where ... we talk about how our culture might have insulted other people? I can think of far more instances of that.

Agreed. The downside being that, unless the insulted party makes their feelings known and explains their cause, it can be easy to unintentionally cause offense without realizing it (and far easier to point out where others have insulted you).
 
  

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