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Captain America in the news (spoilers)

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Spaniel
15:39 / 14.03.07
That's speculation isn't it, Murph? No need for spoiler space when speculating.
 
 
The Falcon
18:22 / 14.03.07
Yeah, boboss, there's loads of Frank going on about 'the uncompromised man in a flag' in War Journal #2-3. the more I think of it, the more impressed I am with the set-up work, back to '21st Century Blitz' in Cap, when the Skull doesn't allow Crossbones and Sin to off Sharon.
 
 
rabideyemovement
18:55 / 14.03.07
I'm seeing a retelling of the Death of Superman here... Watch three or four Caps rise to take his place.
Let's see... We have CaPunisher
Now all we need is:
a cyborg clone Cap
an untrained teenage Cap
and.. black Cap? I wonder what the Falcon's up to...
 
 
The Falcon
19:07 / 14.03.07
Yeah, I don't think so; but you could rock the Winter Soldier with his cyborg arm and Patriot from the Young Avengers to fill the gaps.
 
 
rabideyemovement
19:49 / 14.03.07
Actually, i was joking about the cyborg Cap, but then i just sat and read today's New Avengers and... maybe it's not such a joke?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
22:21 / 14.03.07
The Frank Cap thing as goofy as it could possibly end up being, is one of the few recent Marvel plots that seems to build in an interesting fashion. (Seriously... foreshadowing, characterization, complicated character motivations... that's not easy to find @ Marvel these days.) Fraction has managed to sell me on the idea that Frank would be willing to keep the name alive even though he's not the "real" cap.

And you know, Fraction is a smart guy... one who can probably get a lot of subtextual mileage out of "Captain America" being a guy loaded with guns and stars and stripes. Or interesting WWII vs. Vietnam vs. American Identity stuff.

Or Captain America blowing stuff up.
 
 
rabideyemovement
23:13 / 14.03.07
Yes, I trust Fraction to do that as well, but what the heck was this week's issue of Punisher War Journal? Was that just filler? A big waste of twenty useless pages just to show Frank's reaction to Cap's death?
There was nothing remotely entertaining about this issue.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
02:32 / 15.03.07
See, on the one hand, I liked today's issue, but on the other hand I was left wanting more Punisher. Other than the reveal with the Bridge thing I think that the point may be about Ian -- who was wearing the uniform and doing the job and taking a stand, even though it wasn't his job or uniform. Yeah, I really liked the standoff and Frank's reaction shots at the end, but I was left scratching my head a bit.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
23:27 / 15.03.07
if you guys have been reading PWJ you know it's set to be goofy, it's Punisher back in the Marvel U killing lame supervillains rather than mob suits - that's for Ennis' darker title. I enjoy both, and wonder if the Max title will have to address this particular change in any way.

Fraction's on the money, I trust him just like I did when he assured the moustache would be back, as per fan request. this conspiracy makes my fanboyish gums tickle.

I can see Castle respecting Rogers: both had been Uncle Sam's best soldiers [along with Bucky and some other subjects of the Weapon initiative - remember New X-men? that was a cool concept]: the latter is what the latter could maybe have been if, you know, he had no inner beast triggered by family assassination...
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
00:17 / 16.03.07
Or, as Spider Man said in Civil War, "Same man, different war."
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:00 / 16.03.07
I think you have to accept that the MAX Frank Castle and the War Journal/Civil War ones are implicitly two different guys, occupying two different universes, much like the difference between the comics of the various Batman animated series and the regular DCU Batman titles. The version of the Punisher whom Captain America can feel conflicted about recruiting but still basically deal with, and who might be dressing up as Captain America for a bit, is manifestly not the guy who beats a woman for an hour before throwing her out of window, or ties a man's intestines round a tree, or any of the other serial killer shit that Ennis has now established that Frank Castle does when the crimes he's punishing people for are heinous enough. Because really, in the regular Marvel Universe there's certain kinds of horrible shit that fundamentally just doesn't happen, y'know?
 
 
Spaniel
18:14 / 17.03.07
Absolutatively.

The Max title isn't set in a world where superheroes routinely save the day and battle world eater space gods. In fact, I like to think there are no superheroes in Ennis's Punishverse, just one extraordinarily dangerous, extraordinarily terrifying vigilante. Has much more gravitas that way.
 
 
doctorbeck
13:24 / 18.03.07
in either universe the fact that the good guys don't take frank down for good suggests that they are happy enough with him shooting the people they are fed up with catching only to see escape every 6 months or so. has anyone ever looked at this very closely in comics?
 
 
Spaniel
16:58 / 18.03.07
I think you justhave to buy the idea that taking down the Punisher is very, very difficult or give up reading it. The latest Punisher arc does take this on a bit, but I can't see anyone seriously asking these kinds of questions within the book as they raise real problems for its believability.
 
 
murphy
00:33 / 19.03.07
in either universe the fact that the good guys don't take frank down for good suggests that they are happy enough with him shooting the people they are fed up with catching only to see escape every 6 months or so. has anyone ever looked at this very closely in comics?

Ennis has looked at this. He has made a number of references to the fact that the bulk of the NYPD are happy to look the other way, as Frank permanently eliminates the types of guys that legit cops can only handle in temporary ways. This has pretty much been an accepted fact since Ennis began his first Marvel Knights 12-part maxi. (((spoiler space)))

It's changed a little bit since a recent MAX storyarch had a promotion-minded precinct captain make it look like Frank had assaulted 2 cops, but even that hasn't changed a whole lot in terms of the good guys looking to put the Punisher down once and for all.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:19 / 19.03.07
Isn't the problem that the only way to stop Frank is to kill him, this being something that Spider-Man et al don't want to deal with? And that putting him in prison, if you want to stop him from murdering criminals, is hardly the best policy ...
 
 
Benny the Ball
18:24 / 19.03.07
The Punisher only works when in certain cirlces - with Daredevil he kind of worked, as Marvel tried hard to ground Matt as real a world as they could manage. His series worked at first because he wasn't constantly rubbing shoulders with the likes of Captain America. I haven't looked at a Punisher comic since he was thrown off the Empire State Building though.
 
 
murphy
12:15 / 20.03.07
One of the funniest lines I've ever read in a comic came with the Marvel Knights PUNISHER on-going, issue #3. Frank spent the majority of the issue using Spider-Man as a human sheild against this rampaging beast known as The Russian. When the end of the issue came, and Frank dispatched The Russian, a dazed, beated, battered, and bloody Spider-Man asked "What happened?"

Frank said, "We had a team-up. You were great."

That worked for me.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
01:39 / 22.03.07
The new Captain America in action. (Punisher War Journal #8 cover.)
 
 
tavella
00:20 / 23.03.07
Those last couple of pages of PWJ #5 are just stunning, I ended up buying the book just for that; the rest of the story is good, but it was those last moments that turned it breathtaking.

I'm now even more conflicted about Marvel. My throughline on Civil War went something like "mildly entertaining for the FUCK YEAH moments -> Millar isn't ever going to make character behavior make sense, is he? --> bailing to Byrne-steal, but still ten times better than Identity Infinite Crisis, if for nothing else because no rape and actual after effects --> JESUS GOD that ending was offensive in every possible way, it's like reading a version of 1984 where the author thought Big Brother really *was* good. Marvel no longer wants my money, do they?"

So there I was, walking away, but I had to read Captain America #25 and *damn*. And what has been spinning off from it has been amazing. Tony Stark being both sad and monstrously self-centered in The Confession, the New Avengers so desperate to live in a world that makes sense again, where cops arrest criminals and Cap is alive, the Mighties so morally deranged that they don't blink at using a mockery of a old friend's body to trap yet more old friends with hope, Frank's stunned expression as the images of Cap dying multiply across Times Square...

I'm still not sure how long I'll be staying around in Marvel's new "the ends justify the means" universe, because all the people I'm interested are destined for failure, but there's one hell of a brilliant tragedy being written underneath the shiny nu-Marvel future.
 
 
rakker
01:34 / 23.03.07
I must admit I haven't read all the Civil War publications, but I caught up on a smattering of them, as I was to do an article on Cap's death for a newspaper back home (Norway). And to me it seemed that Marvel isn't setting up for a black and white/ends justify the means universe. It's more of a universe where you question stuff. Where you're not really sure what's what. Where you're exposed to both sides of an argument. Like with The Ultimates (Is Thor a good guy or a crazy freak, is Cap a good guy or an old-fashioned nationalistic fuckwit, maybe they're both good guys with different points of view, who knows, right?).

At least, that is what I get out of the best parts of the selection of Civil War-stuff I've read (like, 60 or so individual comic books). The worst parts are among the lowliest crap I've been exposed to in comics (the overt comparisons between the Super Human Registration Act and the interment of Japanese civilians in the US during world war two, for instance).
 
 
osymandus
12:47 / 23.03.07
"I must admit I haven't read all the Civil War publications, but I caught up on a smattering of them, as I was to do an article on Cap's death for a newspaper back home (Norway). And to me it seemed that Marvel isn't setting up for a black and white/ends justify the means universe. It's more of a universe where you question stuff. Where you're not really sure what's what. Where you're exposed to both sides of an argument. Like with The Ultimates (Is Thor a good guy or a crazy freak, is Cap a good guy or an old-fashioned nationalistic fuckwit, maybe they're both good guys with different points of view, who knows, right?). "

That works fine , if your universe dosnt contain 1) other intellegent alien spieces 2) Cosmic powers god etc who reall dont give a rats chuff on human society or poltics . Humans yes what they built na.

The universe is almost trying to claw back the idea of human endeavour over the more diretcly superpowered charcters (iron man is just a guy in a self made suit , beating the above human idol of liberty ??)

Im hoping World War Hulk is literally the hulk returns and starts showing that appiled forces of nature tend to show how petty and generaly worthless this machinations of social and political manipulation really are. (and their dull as crap to read )
 
 
Jack Denfeld
03:10 / 24.03.07
Im hoping World War Hulk is literally the hulk returns and starts showing that appiled forces of nature tend to show how petty and generaly worthless this machinations of social and political manipulation really are. (and their dull as crap to read )
I like that. Hulk is damn good these days too.
 
 
Tim Tempest
04:19 / 24.03.07
I think Hulk's a commie bastard.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
06:56 / 24.03.07
 
 
osymandus
08:54 / 24.03.07
Well Green is the New Red ... err i think ?

Also lets have Stick in WWH , working for Nick Fury .
 
 
FinderWolf
13:51 / 17.05.07
The Jeph Loeb-written Fallen Son #3 (drawn by Jazzy John Romita, Jr.; his art is 3/4 of the draw right there) is actually worth getting, unlike most of Loeb's output these days. A bit more plot than in the previous two issues, guest appearances by some of the Young Avengers, and more of the "Tony Stark is an asshole!" thesis. Skim it in the store, at least, and see what you think.
 
 
murphy
13:21 / 18.05.07
[along with Bucky and some other subjects of the Weapon initiative - remember New X-men? that was a cool concept]

So, wait. Bucky/Winter Soldier was part of the Weapons Plus Initiative? So that whole thing from New X-Men is canon?

That's rad.


(Can anyone give me a run down of what's been going on with Bucky since the waning days of WWII? I've been out of that particular loop)
 
 
Mario
13:29 / 18.05.07
In short:

The Russians picked him up after the crash, patched him up (robot arm) and brainwashed him into becoming their pet assassin. He spent most of the intervening decades in cryogenic stasis, defrosting occasionally to shoot someone.

When he finally fought Cap, Steve used a Cosmic Cube to make him "remember who you are". And now, he's all emo and working for Nick Fury.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:33 / 18.05.07
Maybe we should change this thread title to something like "The Death (and Inevitable Return) of Captain America", since Bru & Marvel have said this story is mapped out for about the next 1 1/2 - 2 years.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:34 / 18.05.07
Bucky is not part of the Weapon X initiative. The Russians worked him up with a cyborg arm and brainwashing/assasin training. Their own such initiative in a sense, I suppose, if you will.
 
 
osymandus
14:00 / 18.05.07
Wacky funsters that they are. I cuaght the first 2 parts of this in the UK reprint. Edgey moody with long hair and stil wearing part of his bucky uniform .
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:17 / 18.05.07
Has Captain America undeadified yet?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:10 / 18.05.07
Are you being funny?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
16:14 / 15.10.07
In another thread, Falcon sez:

If you want to talk about the current Captain America comic which is, to be fair, fairly unremittently grim (but also, to my mind, possessed of - in its milieu - about unrivalled structural integrity) I'd suggest Captain America in the news is probably the place to do so.

Which is a good point, and I did kind of send the other thread spiralling off-topic, and apologies for that.

Anyway -- what with Barbelith singing the praises of Brubaker over hill and dale, I've been a little reluctant to get into this in any detail, but I really haven't enjoyed Brubaker's run that much -- largely because all his big beats seem to be direct lifts of Gruenwald storylines, but with a factory "grim verité" stamp that sucks all the fun out of the proceedings.

In fairness:

I came to the Brubaker run late, after it had been praised (and possibly over-praised) to the high heavens, and perhaps had my expectations set too high;

The best parts of Gruenwald's run (long before the oft-snarked-at CapWolf bits) came out when Young MattShepherd was 10 or 11 or so, and in his "comics are awesome!" phase without much of a critical approach;

I'll acknowledge that Brubaker is a better writer than Gruenwald as far as the sheer mechanics of writing go;

I'm about two issues behind on Brubaker's Cap, so maybe it has reached heights of dizzying Shakespearean brilliance in the last 48-ish pages of story, pages that have redefined the medium and I'll come back later and admit that I was totally, totally wrong about all of this.

That being said, up to where I've left off with Brubaker, his main storylines that have attracted the most oohing and ahhing have been:

1. Bringing back Bucky, who was the Gold Standard for dead Marvel characters (well, him and Uncle Ben), who turns out to be dangerously unstable but overcomes this to become a long-haired violent seeker of grim emo justice;

2. Shooting Steve Rogers in the head, and -- anticipating a little -- replacing him with a grimmer, grittier Captain America who will, I have no doubts (and which has ALREADY happened with CaPunisher) discover that the Cap boots are big ones to fill and perhaps there's no replacement for the Real Steve Rogers.

Both of which have been done by Gruenwald -- the first with the Jack Monroe Bucky/Nomad, the second with the resignation/John Walker/Captain storyline.

None of this is a slam on Brubaker's meat-and-potatoes writing, mind. I like Brubaker's writing, generally speaking. I like it a lot. Sleeper was awesome, Criminal is great, and his Batman was -- well, fine, but not bad. And his plotting and dialogue on Captain America are technically great, everything ticks mechanically along like a well-worn crime novel.

He writes a great Red Skull, too, which almost lets the character live down the bwah-ha-ha-eeeeevil Acts of Vengeance-era Skull.

But the whole thing is just so desperately dreary and joyless that I can't for the life of me see what everyone is getting out of it. Even the colour scheme -- relentless grey and blue, everyone washed-out and frowning. At times I catch myself wondering if Brubaker is taking the piss out of the fatbeards by delivering "adult" comics; if this is just a more sophisticated version of the AzBats gag, one where he re-writes decades-old plots without any shred of fun to see who'll bite.

It also smacks of a writer hungry to leave a mark. It's not enough to write a good run of a flagship character, you have to (a) resurrect the one character that was the only reliably dead costumed adventurer in the whole MU, and (b) shoot the title character in the head. The word "kewl" apparently makes Falcon flinch, but that's the impression I get -- there are a million ways to write Steve Rogers out of the comic to explore other avenues, but none as blatantly designed to get headlines and get the jaw-dropped eye-popped ZOMG I CANT BELEEVE THEY DID THAT!!!1! reaction as, well, blowing Steve Rogers' brains out.

Looking back over the run, this is the legacy to date:

The one dead character in the Marvel Universe that you can rely on to stay dead is no longer dead, resurrected as a USSR super-assassin that breaks his programming in a story that combines the very best elements of Universal Soldier and that Star Trek: TNG episode where Picard sees four lights.

Shooting Steve Rogers in the brains and not even pretending it's going to stick.

Falcon, in old thread, re. Gruenwald:

I'm not particularly of the belief that all superhero comics should be 'joyous' and it had CapWolf is all I know, really.

Yes, CapWolf. Somebody always brings up CapWolf.

Make no mistake: Gruenwald was a far better idea man than he was an actual writer, again obviously in my opinion. I think Brubaker's a better writer than Gruenwald, and maybe Gruenwald just generated so many ideas (ranging from excellent to atrocious) in his run on Cap that it's impossible to avoid hitting some of them.

But if Brubaker's next big move is to have a secret society of serpent-themed villains crop up, but this time instead of pulling robberies they murder children, because that is more grim and real-world, well, don't say I didn't warn you.

And, well, I like me some grim comics too. Bendis did some great grim comics with Daredevil, Alias and Powers. I like Criminal and I have a feeling I will like Immortal Iron Fist when I get around to it (that last bit being more pro-Brubaker than pro-grim, I guess). I like Batman grim and punching muggers more than I like Batmaaaaan in Spaaaaace over at DC.

But this whole thing to date feels like a misstep to me, for Brubaker, for Marvel, for the character. Like Falcon, I'm not particularly of the belief that all superhero comics should be 'joyous'.

But I'm also not particularly of the belief that blowing the title character's brains out is a sign of brilliance, necessarily. Maybe this is editorially mandated stakes-raising -- DC killed Superman and murdered Sue Dibney, eh? Well, let's see them top this!

Until Brubaker gets on Spider-Man and they find Uncle Ben living in a secret compartment with a 60-year-old stash of heroin and child porn (but bound to, I dunno, shake off Norman Osborne's evil influence and become a grim-faced ex-addict with a burning desire to redeem himself), I can't think of much else that can be done to Marvel canon characters to make them more "realistic."

As Mario says over here:
"Realism" doesn't have to be cynical or depressing. I'd much rather read a comic about a happily married couple who run a detective agency (of sorts), than one that involves rape and murder. Both are equally realistic, even if the husband CAN stretch.

Which I agree with.

This has turned into a very long tirade against a writer I actually like -- and I don't even dislike this run on Captain America THAT much -- it's better written than most of the prior runs of the book. I just dislike where Brubaker's gone with it.

There's castigation of DC as being "sadfaced" right now, but Captain America is currently the saddest book on the market, moreso because none of these storylines are even particularly new.

Bucky's already been brought back, gone crazy, and clawed his way back to sanity to become a long-haired emo warrior.

Steve Rogers has already been written out of the identity (sans his brains exploding] to be replaced by a grim-faced Cap who will doubtlessly get cycled out to put Steve back in the costume.

I just remember it being more fun the first time around.
 
  

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