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Captain America in the news (spoilers)

 
  

Page: 123(4)

 
 
FinderWolf
16:34 / 15.10.07
>> 2. Shooting Steve Rogers in the head, and -- anticipating a little -- replacing him with a grimmer, grittier Captain America who will, I have no doubts (and which has ALREADY happened with CaPunisher) discover that the Cap boots are big ones to fill and perhaps there's no replacement for the Real Steve Rogers.

I have faith in Brubaker to do more than the obvious comic book cliche described above. He's got to be aware that this is exactly what we're all expecting. time will tell...

So this would fall into the famous 'don't act as if you know exactly where the story is going before the story is actually published' sort of thing that so often happens to comics fandom.
 
 
Mario
17:05 / 15.10.07
But if Brubaker's next big move is to have a secret society of serpent-themed villains crop up, but this time instead of pulling robberies they murder children, because that is more grim and real-world, well, don't say I didn't warn you.

Will a new group of serpent-themed villains dedicated to chaos do?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
17:16 / 15.10.07
So this would fall into the famous 'don't act as if you know exactly where the story is going before the story is actually published' sort of thing that so often happens to comics fandom.

True that -- but isn't that exactly what he and Fraction just did with the Punisher, who has just handed the costume back (more or less) to Emo Bucky admitting he's not the man to fill the shoes in the last issue of PWJ?
 
 
The Falcon
22:38 / 15.10.07
Well, I appreciate you giving it a go, Matt; it's certainly encouraged me to go back and read the whole run thus far, if only to check that I do still find the book engaging, dramatic and able to wring more than a modicum's pathos out of a man dressed as a flag. I'm quite looking forward to it, really.

I certainly can't make you enjoy the nigh-on three years of comics you've already read, though, and wouldn't care to try. The last two aren't especially Shakespearean, either, by the way, but I wholly doubt you'd really thought otherwise. I could conjecture that your apparent emotional disconnect to this run (as compared with other cited examples like Sleeper and Criminal; tried Catwoman? That's some sad-ass shit, too, esp. the Javier Pulido arc, 'No Easy Way Down'. Man. Wrenching.) is based on prior association with the title character as a young'in; "you can never go home again", they say, and many comics readers - if the incessant machine of minor complaint, the cult properties internet, is anything to go by - seem to find this out to their cost every Wednesday wrt their cherished icons. Unless, like, Peter David writes them. I can empathise somewhat, do find reading X-Men occasionally quite trying because of this, particularly Brubaker's own well-intended Cockrum tribute although I'm of the - maybe mistaken - belief he is sincerely pitching this toward a quite possibly fictional younger audience, and haven't really bothered overmuch with Spider-Man for about 15 years.

I don't think that it's been the plot-points, per se, that have had Barbelith or whomever flipping out either - after all, 'Onslaught' and 'Heroes Reborn' respectively killed and resurrected about every non spider and mutant related Marvel character, and no-one seems particularly to plotz, at least not in the good way, at these. Things like death and resurrection certainly are grist to the cycling millwheel of corporate superheroics, and items that generally do seem to generate greater or smaller flurries of interest but are not, to my knowledge, generally heralded by accolades and coronets, right? (Again, to the extent that there is any useful yardstick or independent press in the paddling pool.) So I'd think it's in the execution. Which has been, to my and other 'boosters' minds, fairly emotionally gripping high drama (happy characters - realist or otherwise - are not perhaps so much constituents of this, I think, and developing such a complete throughline as has been with would be rather hard - again, imo) where you've seen it as "dreary" or "emo" and, [+] plotwise fairly unpredictable, though always subtly adumbrated and well foreshadowed in retrospect [-] whereas someone who'd read Captain America before, or numerous superhero comics, even 'The Death of Superman' (because, God knows, those analogies haven't yet gotten old,) could counter that the things are, prima facie, pretty similar and, thereby, also predictable. I am surprised, somewhat, that you've been able to match Bru'n'Gru quite so extensively because, among other things, I'd considered the former to be an artist's guy - cf: Cockrum trib, indie credentials, his tcj interview - and I'm sure I'd read him prior to the release of #1 claiming not to have at that time read much of the latter's work - but then, reading the Miller Daredevil recently, I was surprised at just how close EB's cast and beats hewed to Mad Frankie's. I guess writing these things, given how hard it is to exact any lasting change can seem a bit like playing a fugue, seeing what minor tonal variations you can play. I'm an optimist, clearly, because I hope Scott and Emma stay together forevs and also able, childlike, to suspend my disbelief enough to go along with Steve Rogers being dead, dead, dead which is kind of a fundamental disagreement with your take - reading his monthly 'Cap still dead' Newsarama interviews, Ed has maintained what seemed to me a fairly convincing pretence that this will remain the case albeit coloured with the realism that almost certainly someone, possibly Alex Ross, will bring the character back again.

There's a lot of baseless speculation about writer's, editor's (because, hey, who knows?), someone's motivations and (occasionally future) actions in doing this or that - primarily killing Cap, but also being grim - that I can't really deal with in any useful way, there too. I think you may have gotten a bit carried away at that point - I'm certainly previewing a lot here now having the benefit/advantage of a late evening to waste - and really perhaps the neologism 'kewl' should have been left to embody an acceptable shorthand for the majority of the objections found here; it distinguishes perfectly a refined-slash-jaded outlook from foolhardy, blind exuberance, after all.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:01 / 16.10.07
Would I be a spoilsport if I pointed out that saying Steve Rogers got shot in the head/his brains blown out doesn't make it true, no matter how many times it's said? There were no headshots, Matt.

I also have no idea what the second part of this means:

Shooting Steve Rogers in the brains and not even pretending it's going to stick.

...Since I'm not aware of anyone at Marvel saying Rogers will recover from his fatal (but not head-related, sadly, still) injuries.
 
 
Spaniel
10:01 / 16.10.07
It seems to me that grim and gritty take on Cap has less to do with being "kewl" (nnngh) and more to do with an attempt to create a particular kind of genre piece. Afterall, I don't remember reading too many popular spy thrillers possessed of a GSOH.

TBH (while we're doing acronyms), I've been surprised at just what a perfect fit Cap and his mythos were for the spy thriller-superhero hybrid that Brubaker is clearly trying to create. Plonking Cap straight into the grey world of espionage might seem like a hackneyed thing to do but I think it works really well - probably because Bru and crew have also realised that if you're to do that then you're going to need plenty of action every episode, a slew of flying cars, ex-Soviet generals possessed by Nazi super villains(!!!!!), crazy magicians, mad scientists with faces in their stomachs, a full cast chock full of super spies, huge robots, and underground bases.

Thinking about it, there's a lot of fun in this book. Previously if a writer had taken on this kind of project - one labelled "grim and gritty" - there would be neary a supervillain in sight, and the flying cars would be grounded. Brubaker (and Bendis and Morrison), however, knows that when you're playing this kind of game with superheroes the trick isn't to excise everything super from the book, it's to make it work within the parameters of the kind of story you're trying to tell.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
11:04 / 16.10.07
Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I'm going to go back and re-read myself. I think it's largely a conflation of (a) happy childhood memories of the Gruenwald run; (b) Brubaker revisiting Gruenwald's best storylines as his source material, inadvertantly or no, and (c) a general fatigue with the "sadfaced" state of the industry.

And you're right, Flyboy, he got shot in the stomach, didn't he? I was just talking to a friend the other day about how things really hit bottom when they started showing Black Adam punching people's heads apart, and I guess that wire got totally crossed in my brain. Which has maybe taken a bullet itself, based on the above confusion.
 
 
The Falcon
11:19 / 16.10.07
I will admit to a total double-standard in that I believe the Marvel Universe can withstand the unevenly applied patina of (genre-)realism generally far better than DC characters can. Cap sitting down like he'd been punched in the gut after reading the Winter Soldier files is - I think - pretty moving, where Ralph Dibny losing control of his elastic face at his wife's funeral is... illness-inducing. Batman, and Gotham by extension, are exceptions but aren't they always?

Good points about 'fun', Boboss; I'd describe that rather as 'excitement' - Epting can certainly pop a phenomenal action scene, normally one per issue, thinking Falcon swooping from a skyscraper or Cap attaching explosives to an escaping AIM aircraft - but this is splitting hairs rather.
 
 
Spaniel
11:42 / 16.10.07
To split hairs further, I used the word fun because I was trying to point out that the silliness is still there, it's just that it's been camoflaged and comes out smelling of seriousness and (often) excitement.
 
 
The Falcon
20:34 / 16.10.07
And gun oil, of course - Captain America actually in the news, again; Washington Post interview, focusing on the artille-ray.
 
 
FinderWolf
22:49 / 18.10.07
here's a random question: In issues 27 and 28 of the monthy CAP book, Natashsa aka The Black Widow is called "Natalia" by Bucky several times. Is this just a mistake/editorial oversight? I've always heard her called Natasha... I suppose Natalia could just be a nickname/form of the name "Natasha". But it was weird to see characters interchangably calling her both names.
 
 
Bastard Tweed
23:52 / 18.10.07
Having read my fair share of Lukyanenko and Chekhov, yes, I'm fairly certain that it's just a friendly diminuitive of Natasha (as most Russian diminuitions of names tend to have more syllables than the original for some reason).
 
 
This Sunday
00:09 / 19.10.07
Natalia's her name, Natasha's the nickname. Uh huh. I think maybe there's some russophilic element or injoke I'm missing, there.
 
 
FinderWolf
04:58 / 01.03.08
Just wanted to chime in about Brubaker's Cap. run - it's still a really fantastic, well-balanced book. Extremely well-written, with consistent art (smooth transition with Butch Guice now doing inks and sometimes pencils & inks) - terrific mix of espionage and superhero action. Lukin & the Red Skull's plans are actually well-thought out and somewhat plausible (for a comic book), and the use of private security firms/contractors as part of the storyline is a clever echo of current events.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:49 / 01.03.08
Having read my fair share of Lukyanenko and Chekhov

Bless.

Natalia "shortens" to "Natasha", just as "Aleksandr" shortens to "Sasha". Natalia's the name, as DD says, Natasha the nickname.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:49 / 01.03.08
I finally got around to a re-read, and man, I think I really had my cranky pants on the first time around. It's actually less "grim" and more "tense" the second time through, if that makes any sense.

I stand by the fact that all the major plot points are direct Gruenwald lifts, but it also has to be said that Gruenwald pretty much established All Things Cap for over a decade, so maybe it's impossible to write Cap without referencing Gruenwald's run.
 
  

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