BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


'Children have no place in this dark world of mine ...'

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
grant
18:59 / 20.02.07
The way I view it, Barbara would have to commit to that level of training, for that long, to reach the same peak of abilities.

Who said anything about the same peak of abilities, though?

She's just Robin's BIG SISTER in the big BATFAMILY.

I'm totally with Defeld on this one -- Batman is making a family to replace the one he was denied, and part of that involves putting kids in danger. And training them to handle it.

So he's this guy who can do amazing things, but has a few... problems. I mean, that's pretty much a standard take on the character.
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:32 / 20.02.07
Well, I'd like to see a sort of tip-of-the-hat to BATMAN's status as the second of DC's Superheres. While not really achievable with-in current continuity, this is how I'd try fitting it in.

Young Bruce Wayne has decided to travel the world preparing his body and mind for the task of freeing his home city from crime. While preparing, he has a sort of spiritual awakening and recognises that the rampant crime that infects Gothem City is really a sort of symtom of the world's eminent change. Magic, monsters and mayhem are about to enter the world at a degree that will dwarf the wonders of WW2.

His mission becomes 2-fold. On the immediate level is his quest to save gothem, this leads to his becoming BATMAN. Yet always in the back of his mind are plans for undertaking his quest on a global level. Perhaps inspired or influenced by Ras Al'Gul.

He is not just positioning Wayne Enterprises to become a never-ending fountain of resources. With the quiet development of such things as a Batrocket as well as silent funding for great minds like Ray Palmer, Dr. Niles Caulder, Professor Stone (Cyborg's Dad) etc. He is hoping to equip humanity with the tools to survive the coming Crisis(es?).

It's when he encounters young Dick Grayson that he sees the opportunity to synthesise both quests. He realizes that while Dick, as Robin, can be his life-line he must also begin to prepare key players to act as human agents amongst the growing population of meta-human actors on the world stage.

It's at this point that he quietly plays on Oliver Queen's jealousies to help bring about GREEN ARROW and through him SPEEDY. Entering the then young JLA becomes a matter of responsibility, he intuited the formation of such an organization and would probably have a set of bi-laws and procedures ready for them to adopt. More important to him however is the creation of the TEEN TITANS.

Robin and Speedy meeting was only a matter of time in Bruce's mind. The introduction of KID FLASH, WONDER GIRL & AQUALAD are unexpected boons. A young meta-human who would benefit from mentorship and exposure to two fundamentally meta-human cultures would offer priceless experience to ROBIN as well as SPEEDY and finally KIDFLASH.

BATGIRL would present her self as a bit of a savant at this point. With potential and skill that could have her surpassing both BATMAN & ROBIN she doesn't really need a place among the TEEN TITANS. Instead he keeps her close so as to observe her development but would see her as a forerunner to the type of people who would be society's leaders a generation or two past him.

Of course Bruce is all to aware that he is only human but may also see himself as "damaged goods." This would be a factor in his decision to bring focus to his batfamily once the JLA and TEEN TITANS have been set in motion. The control freak in him would later bring about the creation of THE OUTSIDERS during a bout of frustration with the tendency of the JLA to set themselves somewhat above humanity; Satellite Era.

After a while, his street level exploits would serve to ground him, keeping him aware of the needs of every day humanity. His detective work keeps him connected to the people who may never adjust to the world of wonders that is just around the corner. Meanwhile is JLA exploits allow him to check up on the world at large.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
19:49 / 20.02.07
Yeah, not so much little kid partners but small vigilante cells with young freedom fighters in there like the Robins over the years. Batman's cell in Gotham, Superman's cell in Metropolis.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:15 / 20.02.07
Who said anything about the same peak of abilities, though?

She's just Robin's BIG SISTER in the big BATFAMILY.


OK, but like I said above, if someone who's just quite acrobatic puts on a costume and tries to mess around with criminals the way Batman does, I don't think they'd really last very long.

However, maybe this particular discussion should now peter out...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:24 / 20.02.07
Sort of a moot argument, Miss W, since this is just us firing off ideas for possible Batworlds. You're just imagining a more realistic world than we are. What villains would you attack your Detective with? How would you set up your Joker?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:32 / 20.02.07
I just done my Joker at the bottom of page 2! Joker as a network, a set of untraceable cells ~ but mostly Joker as an experience, a sense of unease, a constant wariness, a nagging knowledge that this train journey could be the one when it happens, that this skyscraper could be the next one he hits, that this morning could be the last time you say goodbye. That's how Joker would be for Gothamites, of course. For Batman it would be different.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:41 / 20.02.07
*slaps forehead* Dammit, I know I read that but apparently suffered amnesia. Sorry, Wonder.

What do we do about Poison Ivy?

She strikes me as one of the closest that Gotham has to "metahuman" as far as criminals go - do we want to emphasize that, or distract from that? Partially sentient virginia creeper that responds to her thoughts rather unevens the playing field and ups the ante, but maybe that's important? Depends on how you feel about femme fatales with toxic kisses/pheromone control and the unconscious sexism therein (although maybe you can get away with it as a genre trope of the noirish Gotham). Do we make her a femme fatale known for her knock-out pucker? Bland eco-terrorist without powers? Harbinger for Lovecraftian vegetable gods?

Trying to think how I'd play Ivy. I like her and Catwoman too much not to make them integral to the Rogue's Gallery but just how would I write her? Hmm.
 
 
Mario
23:09 / 20.02.07
Personally, I don't think Ivy was ever done better than in the various "Harley & Ivy" tales. I'm not sure I could top those (especially the shopping episode )
 
 
This Sunday
00:24 / 21.02.07
Here's another vote for the Harley/Ivy routine. It keeps them busy.

Overall, Bats is in the DCU, so he should act like it. Always. That doesn't mean he has to use a teleportation device, Martian psychic, and kick cosmic starfish in the face every issue he appears in. Those things don't fix some crimes. Those things don't help some people.

And, given all the previous iterations, I like Ellis' idea of caffeine-addicted Bat-dad the most. That's who he should be. That damned cool. All the time. Because he's the goddammed Batman, fool. So keep Robin, and the heroic-villain Catwoman, and the billion superhumans, planetsmasher-machines and time-travelling eight-legged laserfist gorillas. And let him tolerate them. Because he isn't about confrontation, but about fixing and helping people along. (I suspect there's some weird psychological thing here having to do with never knowing my father and loving comics with gorillas in them.) Superhuman abilities and posthuman technologies aren't going to necessasrily be any better at taking care of the Joker, or helping a junkie get some decent treatment, than human compassion and efficiency. There's my Batman take: compassion and efficiency, and all the excitement he can get along the way.

Who really wanted to read the neurotic virgin repressed social dysfunction loner angst Bats, anyway? I always see it put out as an O'Neill editorial mandate, but he never really wrote him that intensely in that light. Delano and Morrison should have successfully killed the hell out of fifteen years ago or more ago, though.
 
 
This Sunday
00:50 / 21.02.07
Anybody else love the 'Elseworld's Finest' with Batgirl and Supergirl? There's a grim/gritty/repressed to cute, friendly, family woman version of the Bat myth that works quite efficiently and sweetly, too.

As a young kid (around the time of 'Year One') I was just in love with Batgirl... mostly through the back issue twenty-five cent bins. I really find 'Killing Joke' pretty blah, and the violence annoyingly unnecessary and very 'adult' in a way I kinda assume Moore is slightly embarrassed about nowadays. Babs was the bomb. Possibly because she was invented for television instead of comics, she was a little more efficiently superhero than most female-versions, like Supergirl. She rode around on a motorcycle kicking moth-masked dudes all over Gotham and stole a kiss off Robin. That she was perpetually a brown-belt for some reason, annoyed, as did much of the recent Dixon-writ 'Year One' mini.

I'm quite fond of the Oracle set-up, and of BoP and her treatment there. Love her embarrassing crush on Killer Moth. But she could have done everything Oracle does without being assaulted by the Joker. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm harping on Moore here, but really, she could just be efficient and talented and good. Extraneous tragedy is just that. And besides, with her permanently paraplegaic, she cannot surpass so many other (male) heroes that she clearly would be levels above, if she could still run around and, y'know, put a boot into villains once in awhile. The initial Oracle appearances and Bats reliance on her throughout the nineties sort of establish this, and Ostrander and Morrison both seem to have recognize it.

And, y'know, girl with glasses dresses as bat and generally outdoes her contemporaries (She did know the Bat/Robin identities before they knew hers, yes?) carries a purse into battle despite that being, (a) awkward, (b) sexist, and (c) kinda cumbersome. Even Prometheus kinda crushed on her for a bit there.

Oh, and the whole politician-to-do-good thing. And Jim Gordon. Good 'Secret Origins' story, for that matter. Those were/are rare enough.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:30 / 21.02.07
Who really wanted to read the neurotic virgin repressed social dysfunction loner angst Bats, anyway? I always see it put out as an O'Neill editorial mandate, but he never really wrote him that intensely in that light. Delano and Morrison should have successfully killed the hell out of fifteen years ago or more ago, though.

I think Morrison is actually the man most responsible for Angst-Batman, in Arkham Asylum ~ and it's as though he's trying to bleach that version out of his own mind and our memories with all the Fun-Skiffy-Batman of the last few years. (Even in GM's JLA, Batman was still a hardass loner).

I have a soft spot for the silly, girly Batgirl Adventures kind of story, with Barbara against Harley and Ivy ~ buuut it's a bit of a problem if Barbara's stories are ditzy, handbag and squealing stuff, with only the female villains coming out in that issue. It's like the big bad guns hold back and send out the girls' team, because it's only Batgirl. I did suggest above that Batgirl should solve crimes in a different milieu to Batman (university, social scene, police department ~ maybe a modern Nancy Drew?) but I wouldn't want Barbara's episodes to come over as Clueless or Desperate Housewives.

With regard to Ivy, it may be obvious (but nobody's said it here yet) ~ try the An Inconvenient Truth angle on her, that she genuinely sees climate change and the destruction of the environment as the most important thing humans could possibly be concerned with, and addressing it is her priority, with details like the law, some loss of life or property damage coming a very low second. Yeah, she wasted a cop ~ but she's trying to save the Earth. If she doesn't do what she's doing, there won't be a GCPD; there won't be a Gotham; there won't be a North America.
 
 
Mario
09:53 / 21.02.07
Who said Harley and Ivy have to be Batgirl villains? They fit a role that Batman needs... a villain who ISN'T all about fear and darkness.

If you think about it... Harley was seduced by the Joker because of the thrill. With Ivy, she gets an equal thrill (with benefits, even if it's never stated outright) without the psychotic mood swings and abuse. Sure, she can never keep a houseplant, but that's hardly a major loss. I could even see her renaming herself Holly.

(Holly & Ivy... detective agency? Hmmmm....)
 
 
The Natural Way
17:17 / 21.02.07
See, I like the idea that Harley wasn't so much seduced by the Joker, but, rather, she was infected by him. After meditating on his distorted super-self for a few months a door opened in her head and he just crawled in.
 
 
Mario
18:09 / 21.02.07
That works too, of course. But the thing is, with the Joker she's always second banana. With Ivy, she gets to take the spotlight a bit more.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:12 / 21.02.07
If Harley was really in the femme fatale role, she would have seduced, corrupted and infected the Joker ~ who would have been a dumb, horny, greedy dupe. I know, it's a bit of an alt-history. But maybe worth playing with to see what it throws up.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:59 / 21.02.07
Well if Harley Quinn infected the Joker, at least in part, with her take on reality, I suppose that would lead to the Joker adopting the persona of some kind of homicidal, RD Laing-style anti-psychiatrist, which might be interesting if it was approached fairly rigorously, and went a bit further then the odd proclamation about the madness of the sane, and so forth.

I think Morrison is actually the man most responsible for Angst-Batman, in Arkham Asylum ~ and it's as though he's trying to bleach that version out of his own mind and our memories with all the Fun-Skiffy-Batman of the last few years.

Indeed. And judging by this month's issue, that still seems to be the version that Morrison's most comfortable with. All right, it's arguably about the Joker, but it recognisably takes place in much the same sort of psychic territory as 'Arkham Asylum', and is really all the better for it.

It's obviously very much a question of personal taste, but I've never especially seen the need for a 'fun' version of the character - he doesn't have to spend the whole time reliving his primal trauma on a wet rooftop at midnight, but I do think that everything that happens to him, whether he's out in space, fighting superapes or whatever, ought to be filtered through a fairly dark lens. Alan Moore's take in 'Swamp Thing' was instructive in this respect, I thought. There was any amount of sci-fi, magick and so on, but it all made perfect sense in terms of the Batworld, because it played out as deadly serious. And was very specifically to do with Gotham. The city being as much a character in the ongoing psycho-dramatic nightmare as any of the individuals who fight crime there. I suppose the idea being that Batman behaves ... differently on his home turf, and that he largely prefers it that way, because everything else seems strangely frivolous.

Interestingly, Morrison (in 'Gothic', in the start of his current run, and in 'Justice League Classified') often seems to make a point of getting Bruce to leave town.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:26 / 21.02.07
My problem with a "fun" Batman, much as I enjoyed Morrison's sci-fi approach in "Classified", is mainly that other characters ~ namely Batman's opposite number, Superman ~ are fun and lite. Metropolis and Gotham are meant to be NYC by day and by night ~ 5th Avenue on July 4th vs the seediest back alley on the coldest day of winter. Batman is, in turn, useful as the night to Superman's day. They work well that way, as in Gibbons' and Rude's World's Finest comic.

If you make Batman fun, lightweight and cartoony, you lose that whole dichotomy.
 
 
This Sunday
22:49 / 21.02.07
And, yet, I wonder, can anyone tell me a favorite not-fun Batman story? Everybody's got to lighten it up and have some good old actiony movement and theatricality to get a great Bats tale. Even Morrison's 'JLA' has those moments of Bruce patting himself on the back (Hnh. Worked.) or being glib (One of the my last dates... Stephen Hawking...) and Miller's Batman is pretty much fun action-hero the whole time. Running around punching people, swinging through the air, flying the batplane into a building or operating on the mutant gang leader. Fun. O'Neill had the whole sex-vibe with Bats and Shiva, in his prose 'Knightfall' adaptation. Ellis had the caffeine addiction and practicality. The whole animated series which was really quite good almost all the time. Not one of the movies goes by without some just plain showing-off on Bruce's part.

He's a kid playing at Zorro because it makes him feel better.

Superman rubs me wrong more often that not, with his whole dad-knows-best, sardonic winks over stupid Lois thinking girls could I dunno do whatever it was Lois was trying to do that issue and failed at.

Jimmy Olsen is cooler than Superman. I want to see the dichotomy between Olsen and Batman played up more regularly than some unnecessary (they were not invented to be foils, after all) dichotomy of Bats and Supes.

Batman is Bruce Wayne. He isn't very good at pulling it off, sometimes, because he's slightly socially inept and more than a little traumatised, but at his heart of hearts he's a goofy swinging lovegod in a pointy-eared Zorro outfit who likes kicking people in the neck, flirting with psychotics and a variety of dangerous women, and not being tied down by anything except maybe a few totally absurd rules like the no-guns thing.
 
 
Mario
00:01 / 22.02.07
I think we need to define some terms here. Too often, fans claim that Batman is a yes/no proposition. He's either a paranoid, obsessive loner, or he's a camp goofball fighting on a giant typewriter.

Me, I want the Goodwin/Simonson Batman. The O'Neill/Adams Batman. The "Cape & Cowl Deathtrap" Batman. In a way, the Dini/Timm Batman.

A detective. A warrior. A hero.

And yes, a hairy-chested love god.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:30 / 22.02.07
And, yet, I wonder, can anyone tell me a favorite not-fun Batman story? Everybody's got to lighten it up and have some good old actiony movement and theatricality to get a great Bats tale.

But that doesn't put the story in the "fun" mode. Even Arkham Asylum has Mad Hatter looking like Sid James, and the "filthy degenerate!" moment, which is perhaps unintentionally funny. DKR is incredibly "fun" as a story, in the same way as a great action movie is fun. But it's not the sci-fi closet, Rainbow Batman stuff we seem to be talking about in opposition to "dark" Batman.

One of my favourite Batman stories is the Swamp Thing episodes mentioned above. They're not "fun" in that way. I love reading them, but they don't play anything for "fun".
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:31 / 22.02.07
I spit on "fun".
 
 
This Sunday
11:57 / 22.02.07
I guess I mean Batman - having - fun. 'Arkham Asylum', then, doesn't really count, I suppose. But Morrison's 'JLA' still does. And other things.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:47 / 22.02.07
Actually, what I love about Batman? He can be all Batmen to all people. Seriously. I can enjoy the sci-fi closet Batman, the dark-as-night loner Batman equally. He can be the Shadow or Doc Savage. He can be the Ryan-Sook-pencilled almost-but-not-quite absence in Slott's Arkham Asylum: Living Hell, a presence amongst the villains who only materializes minimally. There's no need to fight between the fun and the unfun, between the dark and the light, because we get whichever one the story wants to give us.

Only Batman I'm not big on is urban-legend Batman, because that never made a lot of sense to me. I can see what they were going for but...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:23 / 22.02.07
Yes, that's also what I love about Batman. Much as I like the idea that there could really be a Batman if a human being drove him (or her, why not) -self to the peak of ability on several levels, I also dig all sorts of Batmen (including Adam West) who don't fall into that category at all.
 
 
diz
02:19 / 23.02.07
Well... yeah, magic exists, but even someone on Batman's level doesn't see much of it. Gods, ditto. Most people living in Gotham are going to have as much direct experience of "aliens" (ie. Superman, really) as they do of tornados and tsunamis. A major superhero battle is going to register with them on the level of an earthquake crossed with a surprise appearance from Britney and Michael Jackson: powers beyond their level of comprehension, damage and danger they can only gape at or run from, coupled with celebrity sightings.

That's completely the opposite of how I see the DCU. In the DCU, superhero/villain fights are like regular occurences. If you work in downtown Metropolis, you've been late to work many, many times because Superman and (insert name here) were beating the stuffing out of each other. If you live in Keystone, you see the faint red blur go by at least once a week. Just like they say that everyone who's lived in New York for a while has a story about having been mugged, everyone who lives in Gotham has a story about being mugged but having their purse or wallet returned by Batman and/or Robin.

Oh, and periodically everyone turns into a toaster, or their minds are controlled by Starro, or your city gets eaten by a painting, or whatever.

I mean, the DCU United Nations includes Atlantis, Themiscyra has embassies, and it's part of DCU continuity that on a particular day (at the end of GM's JLA run), every single human being on Earth gained superpowers, flew out into space, and battled Mageddon.

Think about it. Every single human being who was alive at that time (which has to be only a few years ago in continuity) has personally experienced being a superhero for a day and flying into space to battle an ancient superweapon from the days of the Old Gods alongside the JLA.

Then, presumably, the next day, the depowered six billion people went back to work, as if shit like that happened to them everyday... because shit like that does happen to them every day.

Substitute Imperiex, or the Sheeda, or the whole Solaris nanoplague thing, or the time R'as al-Ghul jammed all forms of communication on Earth, or all the chaos of Infinite Crisis, or any other event which totally overturned the daily life of every single inhabitant of a city, a country, or maybe even every person on Earth for a brief time before it was fixed.

The DCU only really works if you go totally over the top with it. The average citizen lives in a world of everyday wonders and horrors, and the fact that certain forms of everyday life still appear superficially like ours, despite the fact that their world is totally different, is another one of those inexplicable wonders.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:56 / 23.02.07
The DCU only really works if you go totally over the top with it

As you'd expect, I would dispute that, but as we're coming from quite different directions and both feel quite strongly about it (and I think we are both informed and intelligent in our approach; you are, anyway) I think any length of argument about it would fail to convince the other person.

My take, in brief, is this: we're just talking Batman in this thread. Many Batman comics have been written with Batman and Gotham in relative isolation from the in-continuity, undeniable weirdness you mention ~ they treat Batman and Gotham almost as a little pocket of the more-real, more-rational, less-magic-and-weirdness in the DCU. I think they do this because Batman is one of the few prominent human heroes in the DCU, and if you confront him with magic, metapowers and weirdness, he is just going to be outclassed 90% of the time ~ more to the point really, not only would he get his ass kicked by most metahumans (though writers keep finding ways for him to win against those odds) but it's just not his kind of story. Batman is suited to Gotham, almost a part of Gotham and vice versa. He has a richly-developed cast of villains, who again are in many ways almost a part of or reflection of him. I see his milieu as being quite self-contained and self-sufficient.

If I was writing Batman, which is what this thread asks ~ not how you'd write Flash, which I'd do quite differently (new thread?) ~ I would largely keep it in Gotham, and I would treat Gotham as relatively separate from the groovy weirdness you mention.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:42 / 23.02.07
Diz: There's a reference to this in Hitman - during the crossover when the Sun went out, the regulars gather at the bar and wait either for the end of the world or for the superheroes to turn it back on. There's a degree of stoicism there - they find themselves noting that every year at about this time it seems that there is a big event that involves and imminent threat to Earth and the superheroes all gathering to fight it.

However, the end of the world in Gotham is pretty low-key, and I think MW is right that Gotham has its own set of generic demands. You are unlikely to get Darkseid, although you might get an Amazo robot smuggled in (during War Games). Metahumans tend to be low-powered and powered in a picturesque fashion - specifically, they tend to have one ability and one only - flight _and_ superstrength is pushing it for a Gotham metahuman. Again, the Superwoman/Batwoman elseworlds deals with this by having Gotham sealed off and metahumans not allowed in. There have been attempts to explain why it should be - haven't there been about a dozen comics where Superman solves all the crime in Gotham, only to see everyone back on the streets due to corrupt cops and bent DAs the next morning?

At which point Batman says, "You see, Clark? My city. My rules."

And then they make love.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:48 / 23.02.07
I kind of figure it as like London in the DoctorWhoniverse ~ big events happen once a year or so, but Londoners, like Gothamites, are remarkably good at complaining about a late train just days after the main railway terminus was destroyed by aliens.
 
 
Spaniel
10:09 / 23.02.07
...he is just going to be outclassed 90% of the time ~ more to the point really, not only would he get his ass kicked by most metahumans (though writers keep finding ways for him to win against those odds)...

My

Fucking

Arse

Not in my my Batverse. No no no. Never never never. I would, however, focus on the more "picturesque" set-ups that Haus mentions above.

Wonderstar, I know where you're coming from, but you are officially not allowed to write Batman books. EVER. Sorry.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
10:33 / 23.02.07
There was a nice moment in the new 'Brave & Bold' book where Batman and Green Lantern (as Bruce and Hal) go to a casino. Batman is doing the 'Bruce Wayne billionaire asshat' thing to the max, enjoying himself at Hal's obvious discomfort at being in this obscenely wealthy world. I like that - Batman enjoys being a pain in the arse. He enjoys winding people up, especially the Justice League. That's not because his parents were murdered, it's because he likes pissing people off. I think that it shouldn't be forgotten that Batman does enjoy being Batman sometimes - he's not Penance for Christ's sake.
 
 
Spaniel
10:35 / 23.02.07
(liked that comic lots, good oldskool fun)
 
 
Mario
11:08 / 23.02.07
Both Hal & Bruce were written well... especially the way Hal was playing blackjack. That worked for me.
 
 
Spaniel
11:20 / 23.02.07
Zactly my thoughts
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:38 / 23.02.07
The Batman in Justice League: Heroes is very well done, with just the right amount of smugness and condescension displayed towards the rest of the JLA (since they characterise Superman as a well-meaning but deeply dim farmhand, and Flash as an unfunny dick, it seems justified). He says things like "My turn." and "I'm Batman." He doesn't have the super-strength to pick up lorries and hit people with them, but yet it seems totally plausible that he can fuck with Braniac, Doomsday and Darkseid. Um, apart from the fact that he seems to be able to summon a swarm of bats even when he's in another dimension.

It helps that he's voiced by this man:


"Don't go into shock!"
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:07 / 23.02.07
Wonderstar, I know where you're coming from, but you are officially not allowed to write Batman books. EVER. Sorry.

Lol. Mods! where's a thread for me to report abuse and infringement of my liberties, please.
 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
  
Add Your Reply