BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Comic Books >

'Children have no place in this dark world of mine ...'

  
  

Page: (1)234

 
 
Alex's Grandma
11:44 / 18.02.07
I'm mainly bouncing ideas around to get things going, but;

I'll begin by saying that I've never been convinced by the character of Robin.

I'm prepared to believe that I, or anyone really, had they grown up under simliar circumstances to Bruce Wayne, might have thought seriously about training in the Far East with a view to fighting crime. That said, couldn't Bruce have just as easily got lost in a backstreet dope joint in Thailand on his way to find his sensei, his subsequent exploits consequently being the result of a strange, opiated, solitary dream?

Well, possibly not, but the idea of the fabulous, gothic mansion, and the strange enemies he always defeats, but who keep on returning, and the super model-types he can never get too close to, even though he'd like to, would square with that interpretation, I think.

Accordingly, I'd like to keep the kid out of it, although I suppose as an image of Bruce before the fall into terminal addiction, he might make sense.

I do think the concept of Gotham City, and everything that goes on there, as a result of Bruce's hallucinations while he stares blankly, dead-eyed, at the roof of a Thai beach hut, would be a new way of looking at the Batman mythos, possibly.

Basically, the Batman ouevre as the guilt-driven, year-out, party guy's terrible, heartfelt, and somehow heroic hallucinations might work well as ... an 'Elseworlds', I suppose. As an 'Elseworlds.'
 
 
Benny the Ball
11:56 / 18.02.07
I really liked little moments in Giffen and DeMattis' Justice League - odd little things like him walking along chatting with Dr Fate. I thought that the mood and tone was quite close to what I'd do - have him moving about the DCU, feeling a little bit dislocated from the world around him, but someone that almost everyone likes, trusts and respects - too much has been made about him being this loner, distrusting ball of anger - which I just don't buy.

I'd do something about his place in the DCU, almost like a what would he do if all his rogue's gallery were taken care of, offering help and advice to those in his world. I don't like Batman dark and inner-monologuing - i think most writers do not do justice to the idea of how someone like him would think - who can? Making too much of how he thinks just lessens the man, I think.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:06 / 18.02.07
Spinning off from yours a little (which sounds, probably coincidentally, too close to Bryan Talbot's LOTDK 2-parter ~ "Masks" I think), I wonder if Batman could be the American Psycho fantasies of Bruce Wayne. Unfortunately, all I know about American Psycho is what I've learned from a fragile-stomached flick through it and what the author says about it in his most recent novel Lunar Park. But I expect you could do Bruce as a Very Eighties playboy, pedantic about his labels and his AOR, listening to Huey Lewis' "Heart of Rock and Roll" as he tuxes up, snorts a line and jets off to the first of the nights' charity benefits. Batman could be his violent, hallucinatory release from this horrible, superficial celebrity life. Batman as a kind of fucked-up psychopath, but more clean, direct and honest than the fucked-up psychopathy of Bruce's everyday life and the socialites he hangs with. You could have cameos from McInerney, LeBon, Gaultier, or thinly-disguised versions. Maybe Batman is real, maybe Wayne's just having increasingly-realistic fever dreams. Maybe Batman's the kind of no-mercy, razor-sharp vigilante New York needs (the kind of man Travis Bickle and Walter Kovacs made themselves into) ~ maybe he's a crazed sadist. Maybe he doesn't exist at all.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:10 / 18.02.07
It could also be a kind of commentary and satire on the nasty, tacky, "dark", "adult" reboots from the late 80s, like Grell's "Longbow Hunters". You could do at least some of it in the style of Miller and Sienkiewicz from the period ~ or have Wayne's fantasy sequences in that mode, with pastiches of McKean painting, scratchy pencils, showy quotations, flashy typography, FRAGMENTED

(the cocaine cuts white light into)

CAPTIONS
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:19 / 18.02.07
With Robin, it would be an interesting challenge to actually make their relationship what people have accused it of being (or idealised it as being) since the 1950s ~ a romantic, possibly also sexual, love affair between a man and a teenage boy. See if it could be done intelligently and sympathetically within the conventions of the Batman mythos, ie. keeping the costumes, crimes, supporting cast and so on.
 
 
Mario
13:26 / 18.02.07
Well, there are certainly lots of alternate takes. But I would follow my usual approach, and pare the character down to his essentials, before moving forward.

And, in my opinion, those essentials can be reduced to three words:

"Dark" "Knight" & "Detective".

Dark: Batman knows how to use fear against his enemies. But ONLY his enemies. To his friends (defined as people he can trust) he can let the mask drop (literally, in most cases).

Knight: Batman operates under a code to protect innocents and defend the law. This makes him not unlike a modern-day knight-errant or ronin. Indeed, giving him a touch of bushido might help replace some of that "driven/paranoid/obsessive" garbage that's accrued over the years.

Detective: Using Oracle for intel is fine. But he should still be able to analyze a crime scene, and put the pieces together. If there was a CSI: Gotham, Batman could be Gil Grissom.


Psychology: Lose the whole "Bruce Wayne is a mask" thing. It doesn't have legs. Sure, he can play up the whole playboy angle in public, but there should be a time when he can just _relax_. Even if it's as simple as reading a good book in the batcave while he's waiting for some tests to finish. Putting on the cowl should be a transformative event, not just a matter of dress. There's a great scene in the original Zorro novel that applies:

"One half of me was the languid Don Diego you all knew, and the other half was the Curse of Capistrano I hoped one day to be. And then the time came, and my work began.

"It is a peculiar thing to explain, senores. The moment I donned cloak and mask, the Don Diego part of me fell away. My body straightened, new blood seemed to course through my veins, my voice grew strong and firm, fire came to me! And the moment I removed cloak and mask I was the languid Don Diego again. Is it not a peculiar thing?"

Robin: Robin is a problem. Every knight needs a squire, but the whole "taking a kid out every night to get beaten up" simply doesn't work. So I'd make it more of an occasional thing... Robin gets training, but is only used in action when absolutely necessary. For example, I could see a story where Robin is sent to infiltrate a Gotham High School to investigate a new drug ring.

The idea, I think, is to look at Batman as someone who serves society best by operating outside of it. Doing the things that the police can't (or can't be seen doing). But not at the cost of his humanity.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:39 / 18.02.07
I think the idea that Batman must be "obsessive" or "driven" stems from the fact that he's the only person who does exactly what he does ~ no other victim of crime devotes their youth to learning every martial art and training with the greatest detectives and sensei, then hones their expertise and plows their fortune into science, military hardware, IT and physical fitness while dressing like a bat every night. It's assumed he must be different from other people who have experienced similar trauma but don't commit to a WAR ON CRIME, and especially don't do it alone wearing that costume.

I'm not wholly convinced that in a contemporary, "realistic" story, you could have a Batman who genuinely likes hanging out enjoying cocktails with glamorous debutantes, and kicks back reading novels ~ who also does all the above. If you're committed enough to be Batman, I'm not sure how you explain him taking "me-time" as Bruce Wayne. "Me-time" would be Batman time. I suppose I'm just parroting the current line that Batman is the main persona. That does seem to make most sense to me. You don't put that much money, pain, time, devotion and energy into crime-fighting as a hobby: it would be his whole life. (Having said that, it would be an interesting challenge to try to convince a sceptical reader like me of your take, Mario; to reconcile the traditional Batman training history with the idea that Batman is just one aspect of Wayne's life, but not all-encompassing.)

I'm not sure how it would work with Batman revealing his secret identity to a significant group of people, either ~ unless it doesn't matter that his enemies know he's really Bruce Wayne. If the identity is secret for a good reason, I'd expect him to be extremely cagey and selective about it, not letting his guard down for more than half a dozen people in his life.

Sorry if this seems at all critical ~ I was treating this as a discussion.
 
 
Mario
18:07 / 18.02.07
It's a question of balance, really. If he's "on" ALL THE TIME, he'll eventually burn out (which has happened more than once in the canon, most notably Knightfall).

How do you think he could do the most good? By driving himself to the brink of exhaustion, or by marshalling his strength and using it when it's needed?

As for the costume issue:

In the real world, dressing up in a costume and fighting crime is a sign of mental illness. But Bruce Wayne wasn't born in the real world. He was born in a world where there's a grand tradition of costumed "mystery men". Sandman. Dr. Mid-nite. And most importantly, the first of them all... the Crimson Avenger.

Can't you see a young teen, having grown up with that history (as well as stories of Zorro and a few others) making a rational choice to follow in their footsteps?

In other words, don't think of the mantle of the Bat as an obsession... think of it as a _calling_.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:18 / 18.02.07
It's a question of balance, really. If he's "on" ALL THE TIME, he'll eventually burn out (which has happened more than once in the canon, most notably Knightfall).

How do you think he could do the most good? By driving himself to the brink of exhaustion, or by marshalling his strength and using it when it's needed?

True, but that's assuming he can be objective enough to make that sensible decision. If you're driven enough to declare a personal war on crime and train yourself as a one-man army, how could you relax enough to go to a charity function or art gallery, knowing that (as often seems the case) one of your city's dangerous psychopaths is loose, or (as is inevitable in Gotham) someone's getting robbed, abused, assaulted or intimidated? I'm not sure if someone that dedicated would find it easy to turn "off". (Actually puts me in mind of Nicholas Angel in Hot Fuzz.)

As for the costume issue:

In the real world, dressing up in a costume and fighting crime is a sign of mental illness. But Bruce Wayne wasn't born in the real world. He was born in a world where there's a grand tradition of costumed "mystery men". Sandman. Dr. Mid-nite. And most importantly, the first of them all... the Crimson Avenger.

Can't you see a young teen, having grown up with that history (as well as stories of Zorro and a few others) making a rational choice to follow in their footsteps?


Interesting idea ~ what's funny is that I was still thinking of Batman's origins as rooted in the 1930s, when actually there weren't any real precedents for him dressing as a costumed vigilante. (The Shadow, I suppose. The Spider?) If we accept his origins as constantly rejigged and retrochronicled within modern continuity, then I suppose he first wore the costume in 1995 or something (! seems a bit ludicrous) and was of course able to refer back to a previous JSA tradition (Wildcat and the like).

I find DC timelines and their relation to real time quite confusing, though. On one level, Batman was the second major superhero. On another, he's part of a second generation of superheroes.
 
 
Mario
20:53 / 18.02.07
Well, even in the 1930's there were pulp antecedents. Indeed, Batman met the Shadow a couple of times, and elements of Doc Savage informed both Batman _and_ Superman. And his origin is strongly tied to Zorro, even today.

For that matter, the earliest character who could be considered an inspiration for the Batman character, even back in 1939, is a little-known hero called The Grey Seal, who first appeared in _1917_.
 
 
Billuccho!
21:47 / 18.02.07
I'd examine Batman's sense of self, basically. Bruce Wayne might run for office. And what would happen if Batman actually won, and wiped out all Gotham crime? Would he then go totally bonkers?

And I'd like to revamp most of the rogues gallery, and make supposed lamers like Clock King and King Tut and the like cool again.

Batman is the ultimate multi-tasker; he should be running multiple cases, conversing with Justice Leaguers, drawing out schematics for a new Batmobile, and deciding which tux to wear on his date with Vicki Vale (I'd bring her back) all at the same time.

I miss the "and Robin" part of Batman and Robin, so I'd have them team up more.
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
22:06 / 18.02.07
"I do think the concept of Gotham City, and everything that goes on there, as a result of Bruce's hallucinations while he stares blankly, dead-eyed, at the roof of a Thai beach hut, would be a new way of looking at the Batman mythos, possibly.

Basically, the Batman ouevre as the guilt-driven, year-out, party guy's terrible, heartfelt, and somehow heroic hallucinations might work well as ... an 'Elseworlds', I suppose. As an 'Elseworlds.'"

**
Cough* Manson Lang *Cough
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:53 / 18.02.07
I quite liked the Dan Curtis Johnson take (with Seth Fisher) from the "Snow" dark in LOTDK - Batman operating like the Shadow, having an extensive network of operatives. Oracle is the obvious one, and Jim Gordon, but plainclothes Gothamites of various social strata providing intel/connections/access to locations. It would cover the squire/partnership angle without resorting to the child endangerment -- you could even have a Dick Grayson "Robin" stool-pigeon singing him the street-words. Or, possibly, picking up Holly Robinson and/or Selina Kyle as operatives who are working for him and against him at the same time - having an arc focused on Bruce discovering that dear Selina is also the Catwoman.
 
 
Mario
23:24 / 18.02.07
I like the sound of that. Tho you'd have to keep an eye on things... there should be some places he doesn't have contacts (yet) so that he actually has to work to get the information (perhaps as our old friend Matches Malone). Otherwise, there's no mystery.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:29 / 18.02.07
In the Snow arc he has to recruit specific people for the job and I think if you kept his "team" small and spread out it'd be effective. Gordon in particular could play up the idea that there are all these dirty cops with mob ties in the department, but he's just as dirty because he's working "for" a vigilante. Their relationship could be quite complex.
 
 
Mario
23:40 / 18.02.07
I'm not too crazy about the "Gotham PD is corrupt" angle, but then again, I've always felt that the relationship between Bruce & Jim could be made more interesting. For one, their relative ages means that Gordon _could_ be a surrogate father figure.

If you extend (and mangle) the samurai reference, Gordon, as an elder symbol of the law, fits the role of the liege lord (just as Alfred fits the "loyal retainer" role to a T). And from that perspective, their relationship becomes fairly interesting

(I'm rapidly approaching the idea of a Batman-as-ronin samurai Elseworlds. The bat-emblem could even be a "mon" clan-symbol)

And I've always liked the idea that Gordon either knows and chooses not to admit it, or _could_ know, but chooses not to find out. It makes him a stronger character, as opposed to the sort of helpless Inspector Lestrade-type.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
23:46 / 18.02.07
Robin's a problem for the Batman franchise, both in his own book and teamed up with Bats. He's got no rogues gallery, no unique secondary characters, little in the way of a distinct personality, very little reason to do what he does since he's a diet version of Batman- all criticisms you could extend to his older brother Nightwing.
The lack of a niche is the most troublesome part. His role is to back up Batman in the Batman and Detective books and to do the whole breaking-up-purse-snatching Spiderman-type thing in his own book, even though Batman can and does do the same thing a lot better, and criminals, being a cowardly and superstitious lot, are scared of Batman. Who's scared of Robin, or even Nightwing for that matter? His irrelevance to Bats's nightly crusade is flab on the Batbooks when they should be as sleek as the Batmobile.
What does Tim Drake have going for him? Well, he's smart, really smart, and if I were writing the character I'd emphasize this. Obviously Bruce has been everywhere and done everything, but in terms of raw 'processing power' Tim outstrips him, and he's getting smarter. During my hypothetical run his intellect would be both blessing and curse: he would be able to run circles around The Riddler, but would have bouts of obsessive-compulsive disorder, depression and mental exhaustion.
It couldn't have come at a worse time either, because in the Phex-written Robin book he's finally found a niche, and it could very well be the most important job in the whole DCU. His big villain is obviously Cassandra Cain, Batgirl current head of the League of Assassins (in my run a splinter group called the League of Shadows, composed of ninjas she recruited after a schism in the LoA caused by the Manbat-ninja thing in Morrison's Batman run- the LoA-ers who didn't fancy losing their humanity went with Cassandra). She can out-fight him, has a solid grasp of tactics, a whole ninja army and the Titans East to back her up. There's no way Robin could take her in a standard superhero fight, both of them know this. Ooh, and throw in a mutual respect that borders on sexual tension.
Now, Cassandra's warped idea of justice and frequent Venom abuse has her gunning for the biggest supervillain target of all: The Society, based in Gotham, led by Talia Al Ghul who is less than pleased with Batgirl for killing her sister and stealing her ninjas. If the League of Shadows and the society go at it it'll be the Battle of Metropolis from Infinite Crisis all over again, but way more awesome because there'll be like a million ninjas. Somebody has to negotiate a peace between them: enter Robin, empowered by Batman and the JLA as superheroism's ambassador to supervillainy. He swaps the red'n'black for a sharp suit (with domino mask ala the Crazy 88s from Kill Bill) and his utility belt for a briefcase and Blackberry (of course it's not all boring talking, so he gets back into his regular uniform occasionally).
The slightest breach of diplomatic protocol could lead to all out war in the streets of Gotham, he's fraternizing with the killers and monsters he became a crimefighter to stop and he's grudgingly coming to respect The Society for taming and controlling the anarchic supervillain community (think of the Guild of Calamitous Intent from The Venture Brothers if you've seen it), he's found a kindred spirit in Calculator- another person cursed with abnormally high intelligence, Checkmate find out and are not exactly thrilled with an unstable seventeen year old doing their job, the Suicide Squad is sent after him since Amanda Waller thinks that removing him from the picture will cause a supervillain war that will get rid of the Society, Nightwing hates him for it since it was the Society that bombed Bludhaven, the Titans are frightened he'll follow Batgirl over to the dark side now that he's fraternizing with the enemy, the stress leads him to drunken virginity loss in the back of the Batmobile with Rose Wilson, her father finds out and it jeopardizes important negotiations- there's a good few years of really great stories there and it gets the kid out of Batman's hair (he'd still be with the Titans obviously). Now we just have to work together to get me a job with D.C.

Coming tomorrow: How to fix Nightwing!
 
 
Mario
00:34 / 19.02.07
Up until Countdown, I'dve said that Robin was an easy character... someone who chose the path of the mystery man FAR too young, not because of any higher calling or tragedy, but for the sheer thrill. He's a Batman otaku who got his dream job. Smart as a whip, but lacked any more than rudimentary physical skills.

(Of course, then they had to go and kill his father. *shrug*)

Nightwing, thanks to his circus background, was sort of the flipside of Tim Drake. He had the same desire for excitement (tempered by tragedy) but was always more physical than cerebral.
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
03:34 / 19.02.07
Something of an aside...but on a similar track.

I was think the other day about the crow films. I think that (and I am sure many of you would agree) the first film is a minor masterpiece in the super-hero genre and in many ways the story transcends the limits of "super-hero" fiction into the more general supernatural and mythic areas. However, the sequels suck.

Just the other day I realized why? They are essential clones of the first film...minorly different retellings. I realized with a strong core conceit of the crow reviving the dead for revenge or a second chance that the sequels should have transplanted the story to an exotic local or time than the same old decaying urban landscapes.

I have not read the source material. And I doubt I could enjoy the primary source because the film is so burned in mind for me to enjoy it. However do any of the miniseries take place in Japan, Africa, or other exotic locals. Are any romances? Or take more origin narrative directions?

Turning back to the conversation...Samurai Batman Elseworlds...Arabian Batman? Any of this stuff out there. I know there was a Batman in elseworld set in victorian times, but little else.

Also, what if Batman left gotham city for a year to fight crime in another city?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
04:24 / 19.02.07
I like the idea of "diet Batman", but I suppose that's been done in Batman Adventures (or whatever it came to be called... Gotham Adventures, last time I looked).

Thinking more on the problem of Robin, I suggest my proposal #2 above might be a way of resolving it. As everyone knows, the very idea of Robin is ridiculous. Batman's all about moving silently, becoming a pocket of darkness. He brings a twelve year-old in a bright costume. Batman is all about efficiency, streamlined identity, keeping your "real" civilian life meticulously distinct from your... your "real" vigilante life. He lets a kid tag along, putting a minor in danger and threatening to sabotage his own missions. Batman is all about fifteen years of training with ninja masters, in drug trances, of international trekking and devotion to the war. He lets a young circus acrobat, largely-untrained in any other skills and with only a few months' mentoring, help him out.

Why? Because of love. Because he's stupidly in love with the kid. He fights it down and never (?) lets on the real reason, treating Robin gruffly and fiercely except in the brief moments of praise that make it all worthwhile for the boy. But maybe love is the only reason for Batman to do something so gosh-darned stupid and so contradictory to his own personal mission, however much he tries to rationalise it.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
04:25 / 19.02.07
NB. Dark Knight Returns would come closest, I think, to the relationship I'm suggesting ~ but this run would make the love more explicit. Not necessarily sexual, but not a father-son relationship.
 
 
Mario
12:49 / 19.02.07
Sometimes I think that a lot of the problems with comics today is that the writers and editors aren't thinking about the long term. For good or ill, there are some characters (the Big Three at DC, the Spidey-X axis at Marvel) who will ALWAYS be published. So any plot or character development has to not only serve immediate needs, but also the extended life of the character.

For years, they got away with the "illusion of change", but either the audience have become more cynical or the writers more ambitious, because drastic revamps have become the hallmark of the big stories. And while they work well in the short term, they close more storytelling paths than they open.

Batman, as the most psychologically deep of the Big Three, is the most prone to this (as is his nearest counterpart on the Marvel side, Daredevil). The writers want to understand "what makes him tick". So they put him through hell, and sales spike. A bit.

But in the process, we lose the sense of adventure. When I was a kid, I always wanted to be Zorro (big on swords, me), but swinging around like Batman sounded cool, too.

Can anyone honestly say they'd WANT to be Batman, as written?
 
 
John Octave
14:34 / 19.02.07
Robin makes perfect sense in a mythic sense, unless you are reading Batman in a literal/practical/real-world context (and why would you?). The circumstances are changed, but Robin doubles Batman's origins (parents lie dead at the feet of a crying orphan child). Except the second time it happens, a blue-and-grey superhero shows up and says "I'm the Batman! I want to help you!" So instead of growing up in a massive empty house with naught but his elderly butler for company and then dedicating himself to a lonely road to self-perfection with no guidance but the harsh world itself, Robin has a mentor and a surrogate family. Bruce Wayne lost his childhood innocence to trauma; Dick Grayson is able to hold on to his with Batman's guidance. When Dick says "I thought about going with dark colors like you, but then I thought it would be more fun to wear a Robin Hood costume with a yellow cape," Bruce thinks "Thank God he's not going to turn out like me."

Batman keeps Robin around because deep down Batman wishes he had been Robin, that some big strong adult had come along after the accident and said "It's going to be okay, and here's what we can do about it."

I also prefer Batman/Robin as older brother/younger brother for similar mythic reasons (they're brothers because they both have the same parents, that is to say, murdered memories).
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:39 / 19.02.07
Can anyone honestly say they'd WANT to be Batman, as written?

Ah, but which Batman? Batman with the sci-fi closet including Dalek? Maybe.

But, no, Batman's never been a "wish fulfillment" character for me, even if he is super-rich. His past is too relentlessly tragic. Mind you, I was usually stuck playing Robin so I could be a touch bitter. And, pressed to it, I would have preferred to play Catwoman to Batman, because there was always something more smirkingly fun about her.

Grandmama's idea about Bruce Wayne sprawled out in a beach hut dreaming Gothams reminds me of the Allred Solo, where all the dark deconstructionism turns out to be a fever dream. And it certainly squares away with all the villains being obvious reflections of him in one or more ways (masks; singleminded pursuits, recurring motifs in gimmick & act; dual/duel identities; contaminated upper-classes; "families" of weirdly-garbed henchbabies).

I think Tim works as a Robin because he chooses that path rather than is taken and trained at seemingly random, but obviously they've changed him more recently to make him more tragic. Same reason Stephanie worked as a Robin, right up until they killed her off.
 
 
John Octave
14:48 / 19.02.07
Yeah, that's why I thought Tim Drake was a really cool idea. I love Mario's take of a "Batman otaku," but there's also this "good citizen" aspect to him. He was a really smart, athletic kid with a good head on his shoulders, and he thought he should use his talents in the public interest. He learned "With great power comes great responsibility" without having to have anyone die to teach him the lesson. This is why he was supposed to be the greatest Robin, and eventually candidate for Batman II, of all; there was no chance that he would fall prey to obsession and a single-minded, self-absorbed war with his personal demons. Tim Drake had no demons; he wanted to be a superhero just because it's the right thing to do.

But yeah, now he's the same as the others, more or less.

Even as much as I liked Tim, though, giving him a solo series was never necessary. Like said above, no rogues gallery, no unique secondary characters. Robin's really only interesting outside of Batman in the Teen Titans.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:56 / 19.02.07
I think, boringly enough, I'm with Morrison on this one. I don't want my heroes realistic. I really love it all: the darkness, the gaudy gadgets and vehicles, Robin, ninja training, Bat-Mites, Jim Aparo's gorgeous pink skies, etc. It's all good. My Batman's a ridiculous, rocking super-hero. If anything, I want him in his fucking bat-sub off the Mr Freeze's's polar crime-island every other week and making creepy, druggy trips to Arkham between times. Don't need it explained in real terms, don't care about the contradictions - I want super-psychology.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:00 / 19.02.07
This is why he was supposed to be the greatest Robin, and eventually candidate for Batman II, of all; there was no chance that he would fall prey to obsession and a single-minded, self-absorbed war with his personal demons. Tim Drake had no demons; he wanted to be a superhero just because it's the right thing to do.

's also why original-flavour Batgirl worked, because she was a smart kid who grew up with a very good authority figure (Jim Gordon? BEST DAD EVER!) who really just wanted to play Batman. Like kids do. I actually think Barbara Gordon worked better than most other "derivative -girl heroes" because she wasn't directly related to the hero and was more doing it to heed her own call to adventure rather than "following in footsteps" logic (Supergirl) or trying to bring about familial redemption (She-Hulk; keeping in mind that Shulkie transcended her Bruce-Banner-ness in other fulfilling ways and is one of my favourites).

Barbara became Batgirl because she was bored and not challenged enough and had fun beating up Killer Moth that one night after the costume party and she looks to be more like someone James Gordon respects - and in a city like Gotham, who does he respect? Batman.

In the "network of Bat-agents" hierarchy, Barbara would make perfect sense with her photographic memory and position at the Gotham Library - access to a lot of information in both hardcopy & digital, and I can see Batman outsourcing a lot of his random data-processing needs to her. Only she ends up playing Batgirl at a party and liking it...starting up a little Bat-evolution coursing through the net...
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:23 / 19.02.07
Amen to that Marriage. The last twenty-odd years has been a shadow cast over the character by Dark Knight Returns. The character needs to get over that.

And now part two of my 'Building Better Batmen' series: Nightwing



Hypothetically, Dick Grayson, aka Nightwing, should be a character with all Batman's strengths and none of his weaknesses. Sure, he's had his fair share of misery, and if writers over-emphasize that you get a lot of splash pages of him crying on a rooftop. In the rain. Which is the last thing the book or the readers need. No, clunky 80s moniker aside Nightwing has a lot going him: it's time that he and his writers realized that- readers will follow.
One of the problems he has as a character is that he's the most Marvel of the DC characters. Whereas Batman might worry about which Batmobile he's going to drive today his protege and defacto son worries about paying the rent, balancing nightly superheroism with the daily grind at some dead-end job. He's even living in New York now. He's a regular schmoe with everyday problems.
Shit-boring in other words, and completely indistinct from a dozen other titles, most of them from Marvel. And besides, DC's doing the whole regular-person-balancing-their-personal-life-with-being-a-street-level-hero thing in Manhunter a whole lot better than it's ever been done in Nightwing.
By now Dick has paid his dues both as a person and a masked crimefighter. He could never fully settle in to Bruce's cocktails and supermodels life- he's a working class lad done good, but he still deserves better than a succession of crappy jobs and lousy apartments. Let's get him out of that and on to bigger things.
Okay, so an operation with the Outsiders has gone horribly wrong. In taking down a KOBRA cell they've unwittingly exposed dozens of undercover Checkmate agents, all of whom have been tortured and killed. Amanda Waller is ready to shut the Outsiders down, but Sasha Bordeaux reaches a compromise: the Outsiders get to stay out of jail if Nightwing works for Checkmate. Goodbye Nightwing: Twenty-something Wonder and hello Nightwing: Globe-trotting superspy agent of Checkmate.
He globe-trots, he super-spys. He has a cool car, his own Q-branch (I'm thinking Dylan from the Manhunter books since his boss is being shot into space or something as part of DC's 'Kick out the Funk, bring in the Jive' editorial policy), he's dating a re-vamped Modesty Blaise (DC owns the rights to the character). His cover as a party-hopping playboy means private jets, tropical islands, champagne. It means exotic locations, eventually his own villains and sooner or later his own protege, allowing him to finally step out of Batman's shadow.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:29 / 19.02.07
I think the original Batgirl totally didn't work for that reason. Maybe this is because I am coming at it from more of an alternate-real-world perspective ~ I suppose I still subscribe to Moore's 1980s angle on superheroes, which accepts that their universe isn't exactly like ours but still tries to keep it within rational limits and a framework of the possible.

Even in an alternate history that's seen the Justice Society of America, I don't think Batgirl makes an interesting character if she's just a bored teenager who wanted to play at being Batman. My take on in-continuity Batman, as suggested above ~ distinct from my Elseworldy offers of 80s American Psycho Batman, or Batman-and-Robin-in-love ~ is that he can't just be a guy who likes dressing up and fighting crime because it's a decent thing to do. I just don't think you devote your entire teenage and adult life to that kind of driven, extreme training unless you're consumed by your goal. And it seems pretty jarring, if you accept that version of Batman, to have a teenage girl and boy hanging around him as part of his "family" just for kicks ~ young counterparts who don't understand why Batman's really doing it, or share any of his obsessive drive, but like costumes and beating up thugs and swinging off flagpoles. It's like Trump or Sugar wanting an apprentice who just thought running a business would be a laugh because the suits look neat.


So instead of growing up in a massive empty house with naught but his elderly butler for company and then dedicating himself to a lonely road to self-perfection with no guidance but the harsh world itself, Robin has a mentor and a surrogate family. Bruce Wayne lost his childhood innocence to trauma; Dick Grayson is able to hold on to his with Batman's guidance. When Dick says "I thought about going with dark colors like you, but then I thought it would be more fun to wear a Robin Hood costume with a yellow cape," Bruce thinks "Thank God he's not going to turn out like me."

Except that if Batman's relieved that he's saved Robin from a life like his own, that the boy is comparatively free from trauma and darkness, why does he want to take the boy out into situations where his young life and sanity are constantly going to be in danger? If the whole point is "phew, Robin's gonna be OK", why let him tag along against gangs of petty muggers, let alone murderous psychopaths like Joker? I kind of think Robin's childhood innocence might be at risk, doing that kind of thing every night.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:33 / 19.02.07
...have you ever noticed that the surefire way to solve a character's problems is always spying? She-Hulk's an Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. right now. That's how you solve a Marvel problem: throw in spy action and dump a thoroughly random Steranko-nostalgia cover on the thing. I might read Nightwing if he went that route, but I'd be thinking about Casanova Quinn the entire time. I'm not entirely convinced that making Nightwing a spy would save him or make him more distinctive, especially if all the trappings of the Little Batman come in. Then he's more a pastiche of Batman than a kid raised by Batman grown-up and making his own way.

He was an entertainer as a child, brightly lit and full of daring. Acrobat. Smiling Squire to the Scowling Knight. He needs to pull himself outta the funk and remember what being the squire meant. In fact, make him hang out with Beryl Hutchinson for a few days so he can remember what the hell he wants outta life.

Why's he worried about the rent, anyway? Brucie-Baby withholding the trust-fund?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:34 / 19.02.07
Can anyone honestly say they'd WANT to be Batman, as written?

I am clearly coming at Batman from a different angle to many of you, but yes, I can connect with that Batman. Because he's absolutely shit-hot at what he does. He's incredibly resourceful and inventive. He has enormous stamina, physical and mental strength, and drive. Against incredible, alien, genuinely superhuman odds he's able to plan his attack meticulously to work against whatever chinks he finds in his opponent's armor ~ when beaten down to his last reserves, he finds another level of stubborn energy and pushes himself onwards. He manages not just to survive or to hold his own, but to lead, as a human being, among metahumans. He shows what humans can do.

And he fights crime.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:48 / 19.02.07
Even in an alternate history that's seen the Justice Society of America, I don't think Batgirl makes an interesting character if she's just a bored teenager who wanted to play at being Batman. My take on in-continuity Batman, as suggested above ~ distinct from my Elseworldy offers of 80s American Psycho Batman, or Batman-and-Robin-in-love ~ is that he can't just be a guy who likes dressing up and fighting crime because it's a decent thing to do. I just don't think you devote your entire teenage and adult life to that kind of driven, extreme training unless you're consumed by your goal

That works for me for Batman, sure, but with Barbara you've got someone quite exceptional on their own, already. She doesn't need the tragedy for me because - shit! People can be driven by frustration with their surroundings to get PhDs and train to be in the Olympics and in a world where you've got Batman, how is that not a viable choice? When your dad knows Batman and the big man fighting ridiculous villains every day is just that, every day? Barbara moonlights, it fulfills her while she's unsatisfied with other aspects of her life. While Batman's tinged with the dark, Batgirl could come just as much from the old school adventuring legacy of people like the Challengers of the Unknown; maybe not consciously, but that same zeal for discovery/mystery-solving/super-fitness.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:00 / 19.02.07
I just don't think someone in her twenties ~ what was she originally, studying a PhD at Gotham University? ~ with her lifestyle and experience would survive for more than a few lucky nights pretending to be Batman. What physical training is she meant to have? Presumably no more than regular visits to the gym, a bit of jogging. What experience of crimefighting has she got? Maybe going with her dad on a ridealong, sometimes perching on a chair in his office, hearing the guys from work talking about cases before Gordon shuts them up because he doesn't want his little girl to hear about rapes and murders. Even allowing for the slightly whimsical, wish-fulfilment notion that this student can sew a convincing costume and pick up some weapons for her utility belt, what's she really going to be armed and armored with? Can she get hold of kevlar, and a metal-lined cowl? She can't make her own smoke capsules or batarangs, so what's she going to make do with as weapons? Sure, she's intelligent and above-averagely athletic, but the first time someone pulls a gun on her ~ any two-bit thug way down the hierarchy, not a name villain like Two-Face ~ what's she going to do? Try to make a jump for a shop sign like she once saw Batman do, so she can swing two feet in the guy's face ~ then realise too late that Batman's Olympic-level-plus-plus-plus, and just about make the grip, hanging lamely while the perp pumps bullets into her gut.

BATGIRL: DAY ONE: THE END.
 
 
Mario
16:35 / 19.02.07
I actually like the whole "Grayson, Dick Grayson" idea. It fits his daredevil background, his lack of a firm homebase... even his status as DCU manslut.

Batgirl actually makes more sense as the bored fangirl... it fits her history (never a Titan, Outsider, or JLA member)and it makes her eventual fate as Oracle even more logical... once she realized that she couldn't serve best as a street-level hero, she figured out how she could, using her strengths.

In fact, is there really any good reason why Nightwing couldn't join the Birds of Prey (other than that unfortunate broken engagement)? He and Oracle complement each other well.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:04 / 19.02.07
Batgirl could work as a crimefighter and detective on a different level to Batman ~ as an investigator of society blackmailing, tabloid phone-bugging, back-handers and corruption within the GCPD, Gotham University professors with secret criminal identities. That kind of milieu. Not as Batman-lite for the girls, but a different league and a different approach. Play up the things Barbara's actually uniquely good at ~ Bruce was never an academic, for instance, and though he plays at being a socialite, he was missing from Gotham society for years; he wouldn't be natural in that environment, no matter how charming his front (and I'm not convinced he'd really relax into it, if his mind is on the multitude of crimes happening while he sips his ginger ale and makes small talk.) Barbara's strength could be, in part, her normality ~ her socialisation. The fact that she's actually got a solid, kind, caring, strong father figure, and real friends, and colleagues, and a network of cops who all respect Gordon and have been fondly protective of Babs since she was a kid. I suggested above that she wouldn't last 24 hours pretending to be Batman. Maybe the key to Batgirl should be that she doesn't even try. She does things Batman couldn't, because he's too big, too stark, too unsubtle.
 
  

Page: (1)234

 
  
Add Your Reply