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'Children have no place in this dark world of mine ...'

 
  

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John Octave
17:45 / 19.02.07
Except that if Batman's relieved that he's saved Robin from a life like his own, that the boy is comparatively free from trauma and darkness, why does he want to take the boy out into situations where his young life and sanity are constantly going to be in danger? If the whole point is "phew, Robin's gonna be OK", why let him tag along against gangs of petty muggers, let alone murderous psychopaths like Joker? I kind of think Robin's childhood innocence might be at risk, doing that kind of thing every night.

Well, to Batman, wanting to fight crime in a costume is a perfectly healthy, noble endeavor. The danger is in letting it consume you. My platonic ideal of Batman is extremely driven but not obsessed, although sometimes he worries that he'll cross that line (or perhaps already has). By giving Robin guidance, training, and taking him out to a baseball game once and awhile so that Dick doesn't completely lose out on being a kid, he tries to mold Robin into a healthier version of himself.

Robin also helps Batman keep the horrible things he sees in perspective. Left to himself, Batman drones on and on in endless narrative captions to himself about how the Joker is his own dark opposite, the mirror cracked, and that maybe, just maybe, they have more in common than anyone realizes etc. etc. And then Robin says "The Joker? He's just some sick, messed-up clown who thinks it's funny to hurt people, that's all." Batman may be reading too much into their relationship and Robin may be oversimplifying, but Robin at least keeps him a bit grounded, and together they can arrive at some sort of synthesis viewpoint.
 
 
Axolotl
17:48 / 19.02.07
All of this is really interesting and it's good to see the Comic forum digging into a character and really analysing them, why they're interesting and why the character works (or doesn't) and how different posters have their own takes on this.
Reading this thread I'm reminded of Cooke's "New Frontier" where Batman tries to rescue a child and is upset when the kid cries at the sight of him. Next time Batman appears in the story he's got Robin with him (who's flipping cartwheels in the background) and when Superman comments on it, he says something along the lines of "kids shouldn't be scared of me".
I like the idea that for Batman, Robin is a safety line out of the dark. He can understand Bruce's loss and anger (especially the Dick Grayson version), but isn't as eaten up by it as him (perhaps due to Bruce's role in his life, as mentioned earlier) and this helps Batman stop from crossing over from vigilante hero to vigilante villain who not only scares criminals but the regular people who he set out to protect.
 
 
John Octave
17:55 / 19.02.07
Batgirl could work as a crimefighter and detective on a different level to Batman ~ as an investigator of society blackmailing, tabloid phone-bugging, back-handers and corruption within the GCPD, Gotham University professors with secret criminal identities. That kind of milieu. Not as Batman-lite for the girls, but a different league and a different approach

And actually, that's pretty much what Barbara is now as Oracle, although I think someone ought to tell her that although she might not be kicking Riddler goons in the face anymore, she's still Batgirl and can have the name. If she wants it.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:00 / 19.02.07
And in turn, it would be interesting to have a portrayal of Barbara-Batgirl informed by what she's going to become ~ an able-bodied Oracle.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:05 / 19.02.07
And then Robin says "The Joker? He's just some sick, messed-up clown who thinks it's funny to hurt people, that's all." Batman may be reading too much into their relationship and Robin may be oversimplifying, but Robin at least keeps him a bit grounded, and together they can arrive at some sort of synthesis viewpoint.

Intriguing idea about Batman over-thinking things; being too Romantic (Byronic?) about his own identity, or maybe too psychoanalytic; seeing the Gothic in every towerblock, seeing the gargoyles on every skyscraper. Seeking out the rain to crouch and pose in it. A story along these lines could (as I suggested slightly differently about a tacky, nasty 80s Batman) could critique and perhaps parody the overwritten, overwrought Arkham Asylum kind of Batman ~ the Batman of Rorschach blots and childhood trauma, a character who keeps moping over his library copy of Hamlet and pacing in front of the manor windows with the Alice in Wonderland his mother read him. And Robin could serve as a modern, cheeky, witty, no-nonsense, cut-the-crap antidote to that... which Batman would really need. You could do a lot with different color schemes and art styles, contrasting the above scenes of Batman (painted gloom) with Robin's primary-bright entry.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
19:18 / 19.02.07
Batman should be all about family! His family was killed and he's been fighting mad/sad ever since. But Wayne's a determined fella, and overcomes all kinds of crazy obstacles, and he eventually gets over his mom and dad's death, and only then can he start his own family. But this isn't your ordinary family, because Bruce can't get the crime fighting out of his blood, and he likes making Gotham safe. It's a crime fighting family! And Batman's happy about the whole thing and gets a spiffy new costume which includes a sword like his hero had when he was a young happy boy.

He marries his old sweetheart Catwoman, who becomes part of this Bat family as the new Batwoman!

And they adopt old Tim Drake, who of course gets a shiny new costume!

It's like Partridge Family meets Scooby Doo, Sherlock Holmes marrying Wonder Woman and adopting Dennis the Menace to fight crimes and solve mysteries. We'd have fun science facts like the old Flash science facts in the comics to teach Robin (and you the reader) cool little bits of info.
 
 
Mario
20:16 / 19.02.07
Don't laugh too hard... that's basically how the Earth-2 Batman ended up, before his retirement.
 
 
diz
21:56 / 19.02.07
I just don't think someone in her twenties ~ what was she originally, studying a PhD at Gotham University? ~ with her lifestyle and experience would survive for more than a few lucky nights pretending to be Batman.

All that would be true, in the real world. But she doesn't live in the real world, because she's the goddamn Batgirl and she's awesome.

I suppose I still subscribe to Moore's 1980s angle on superheroes, which accepts that their universe isn't exactly like ours but still tries to keep it within rational limits and a framework of the possible.

I am increasingly convinced that that take is a dead end, and superhero comics will continue to languish until they back out of said dead end and move in a different direction.

Superheroes can't live in a realistic world, because the genre conventions make no sense in real world terms. Eventually, you start chiselling away the genre conventions until you end up with something like 24, except with people who can shoot lasers out of their eyes.
 
 
Mario
23:25 / 19.02.07
If I wanted to read about the real world, I'd read the newspaper.

It's always a balancing act, keeping a fictional universe realistic without making it mundane. But superheroes don't work "realistically", so you HAVE to accept some basic premises, like:

Magic exists.
So do aliens and gods.
The square-cube law is more like a "guideline"
And dressing up in a costume to fight crime is a rational decision.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
05:10 / 20.02.07
All that would be true, in the real world. But she doesn't live in the real world, because she's the goddamn Batgirl and she's awesome.

STRONG TRUTH.

The story arc in my head is gelatinizing as we speak. Batman and his small network of informants and spies, working to better Gotham against overwhelming tide of Weird Crime. Barbara Gordon's metamorphosis from operative to full agency, having been in the Batman's group for some time. Jim Gordon's frustration with being a good man on the take among bad men on the take (just a different kind of take). Robin as Batgirl's spiritual forebear, the little brother Batman needs to have to ground him in light. What now?

The Villains.

Let's talk about the bad people, yeah?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:55 / 20.02.07
It's always a balancing act, keeping a fictional universe realistic without making it mundane. But superheroes don't work "realistically", so you HAVE to accept some basic premises, like:

Magic exists.
So do aliens and gods.
The square-cube law is more like a "guideline"
And dressing up in a costume to fight crime is a rational decision.


Well... yeah, magic exists, but even someone on Batman's level doesn't see much of it. Gods, ditto. Most people living in Gotham are going to have as much direct experience of "aliens" (ie. Superman, really) as they do of tornados and tsunamis. A major superhero battle is going to register with them on the level of an earthquake crossed with a surprise appearance from Britney and Michael Jackson: powers beyond their level of comprehension, damage and danger they can only gape at or run from, coupled with celebrity sightings. For the most part, I imagine Superman is someone they read about in newspapers and see in public service broadcasts, or in clips of conferences with world leaders. Everyone probably knows someone who claims to have met him.

So, that's the "real" DC world as I'd see it for normal civilians. Not all that different, day by day, from ours. And that's the world Barbara Gordon lives in.

That isn't to nix what everyone's been saying, at all. It's more likely for Barbara (and any other non-powered hero) to choose to dress up and fight crime than it would be for a civilian in our world. The equivalent would be wanting to be a celebrity, in our universe. (Maybe you'd have lots of shows like Stan Lee's wannabe superhero competition.) For anyone bored and spoiled, or troubled and seeking attention, or disenfranchised and socially powerless, becoming a costumed villain or crimefighter would seem an obvious way forward.

But I don't think the existence of magic, gods and aliens in her universe means that we assume it'd be any easier for a young woman (or man) to train up from a normal civilian life as a cop's kid and student to a level where he or she can fight street crime. Batman can do it because he put all his money, energy and time into it. It's "unrealistic" to assume that Barbara can do the same job overnight, or with a few week's training ~ unrealistic as in inconsistent.

That's all I'm seeking in "my" version of this DCU ~ that it follows consistent principles. Superman, Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman are uncanny, incomprehensible in their power and status. Batman is a normal guy who made himself incredible by devoting his life, talent and riches to it. You can accept those principles and build a consistent, coherent narrative world around them. It's not "realistic" (ie. men can fly) but it makes internal sense, and it has to follow its own rules. Batman can't suddenly shoot beams from his eyes. And Barbara can't suddenly be Batman.

I don't see this concept of the "consistent" DCU as boring or earth-bound. I see it as more of a productive challenge. If you accept that Barbara couldn't become a Batman-level vigilante just like "snap", then you have to find other things she could do, as suggested above. You have to find another milieu for her, and crimes she actually could deal with; and in doing that, you make her something different from Batman-lite-with-boobs.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:03 / 20.02.07
I think I'm probably enjoying this thread too much.
 
 
Mario
09:53 / 20.02.07
The thing is... if you go back and look at the original stories, Batgirl WASN'T that extraordinary. Oh sure, she had some judo and a decent detective mind, but she wasn't some sort of super-athelete.

I'll come back to talk about villains later.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:32 / 20.02.07
If you look at the original Barbara/Batgirl, stories, I'm pretty sure she trapped villains with some kind of gimmicked lipstick, powder and hair-net! I don't think we always want to look at the originals as guidelines for what we do with these characters now... unless you want Batman killing evil scientists and gunning vampires down with the machine gun mounted on his Bat-plane.
 
 
Benny the Ball
11:07 / 20.02.07
Okay, as mario kindly answered my question in the DC Surgery -

I'd have Bruce start his own security force - tired of the GCPD corruption and realising that the smaller crooks need to be taken care of as well as the bigger villians - it would have at the top himself as Batman, Nightwing, Oracle - taking care of the rougues gallary, technical back up if needed from a kind of SWAT team. Then at the next level, organised crime and the such, with teams led by Batwoman, Huntress and the Question, taking out the old school bosses who fund a lot of the low level crime and even pamper to the rougues. At the next, street level some of the characters from GCPD, headed by Gordon and Robin, taking care of low level crime. It wouldn't be an army in the same sense of DKR, but more just a structure to the extended Bat family.
 
 
Mario
11:11 / 20.02.07
Now that you mention it....

(Did Matt Wagner keep those scenes in when he updated the stories?)

Anyway... villains. Some of them are easier than others. But there are two things you have to be careful about:

1) Making them all psychotic, which makes them too alike.

2) Making them too sympathetic, which takes away their menace.

Here are a few classics worth playing with.

The Joker: Duh. But I think I'd play up his psychopathy in a different way, thanks to the creation of Harley Quin. Think Hannibal Lecter meets Bonnie & Clyde. Joker is the sort of criminal who could (and does) do _anything_ if he thinks it'll be amusing, from custard-pie traps to poisoning a reservoir. He's not only murderous, but _completely_ unpredictable. The ultimate "bad boy". And Harley was seduced by that.

Catwoman: See "P'Gell". The perfect femme fatale, always dancing on the edge.

The Riddler: Punch up the intellect. He challenges Batman not out of any dysfunction, but simply because he needs the mental stimulation. EVERYONE else bores him, and he can't abide stagnation. Imagine Sherlock Holmes without the cocaine.

Penguin: Sydney Greenstreet in Casablanca. He's more interesting as a semi-legit nightclub owner than he EVER was as a fat putz with trick umbrellas.

For most of the others, the hard part is coming up with new stories. I mean, Freeze can look for a cure or Two-face find redemption only so many times...

And Ra's works best when he's used sparingly, as a dark mirror to Batman.
 
 
Benny the Ball
11:49 / 20.02.07
The Riddler: Punch up the intellect. He challenges Batman not out of any dysfunction, but simply because he needs the mental stimulation. EVERYONE else bores him, and he can't abide stagnation. Imagine Sherlock Holmes without the cocaine.

Nice. Although I'd pitch it more as he's the Moriaty to Bruce's Holmes.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:00 / 20.02.07
That kind of ties in with the current portrayal of Riddler in Dini's Detective Comics run- he's a good guy now, solving mysteries for money and mental stimulation and will go back to being a villain again as soon as he needs a challenge.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:31 / 20.02.07
I don't know, why not imagine him with cocaine, whether mentioned explicitly or not? And speed. He doesn't actually have to be using drugs, but those could be keynotes to his character ~ quick, arrogant, aggressive, impatient, stunningly bright but dangerously moody. Also, how about making him really fucking sexy?
 
 
John Octave
12:31 / 20.02.07
Two-Face and Riddler: My favorite Bat-villains. Both of whom were in Batman Forever, neither of whom came off very well.

So Two-Face's current deal is that he suffers from the comics version of multiple personality disorder, yes? This seems to be a less-interesting oversimplification of what I presume was the original concept, or at least what I always took the concept to be.

Two-Face isn't a guy who flips a coin to determine if he listens to good "Harvey" or evil "Big Bad Harv." He's just Harvey Dent deciding to act on the good impulses or bad impulses within his own whole personality. Dent was the youngest DA Gotham ever had, and his by-the-book, letter-of-the-law code of ethics went out the window once he had to start making deals with unrepentent murderers to get at the higher-ups. The agonizing moral ambiguity gets to him, building up pressure and stress, and the disfigurement trauma creates a break and presents him with a much less stressful, more clear-cut decision-making process in random duality.

This concept seems to generate more genuine internal Man vs. Self conflict and complexity in the character, rather than the simple Man vs. Other Man, Except That Man Is Inside You that stems from comic book MPD.

The Riddler doesn't really work as a zany, de-fanged Joker (except for Frank Gorshin, because I love him so), but as the intellectual that he seems to be returning to. I don't like to think that his leaving of riddles is a mental block or psychological fixation; more interesting to think it's part of the "game" with Batman.

Batman catches the Riddler, and he says "Good work! 'What's the deadliest jewel there is? A die-amond!' And you figured out from this totally incomprehensible clue I was going to be robbing the diamond exchange. Genius. Well done. Clearly, this is why they call you the world's greatest detective." On the one level, Riddler is just being a condescending prick or excusing his own failures, but the real purpose is to foster doubt in Batman. Would Batman be able to figure it out if Riddler hadn't left a clue? What if the Riddler is doing this all the time, and Batman's just never caught on without the clues?
 
 
The Natural Way
13:00 / 20.02.07
See, I 'm all for the 'realism' Wonderstarr suggests, but I would be wary of getting too bogged down by it. Where it starts to restrict fun it should be forgot, and I do think it is fun to stick Bats on a spaceship to Mars evbery now and then. Internal logic and consistency should be treated like continuity. They should have the appearance, the veneer, of solidity, but, in essence, should remain soft and fluid.

To be honest, I'm not so sure the man-on-the-street in the DCU would in anyway resemble the same guy over here in the infant universe of Qwerk (or whatever). Wonder and horror stalk the streets, skies and subways of Batman's world (as SS was so keen to remind us) and the chances of Joe public impacting with anyone from a Bat-mite to a Dream God is pretty high. I don't know, with regards to the psychology thing, I think it's important that DCU psychology resembles our own, enough so we can recognise it, but....that it is capable of feats and distortions wonderful, strange and superhuman.
 
 
Mario
13:19 / 20.02.07
I don't know, why not imagine him with cocaine, whether mentioned explicitly or not? And speed. He doesn't actually have to be using drugs, but those could be keynotes to his character ~ quick, arrogant, aggressive, impatient, stunningly bright but dangerously moody. Also, how about making him really fucking sexy?

I was actually referring more to the reason WHY Holmes took cocaine:

"My mind rebels at stagnation. Give me problems, give me work, give me the most abstruse cryptogram or the most intricate analysis, and I am in my own proper atmosphere. I can dispense then with artificial stimulants. But I abhor the dull routine of existence. I crave for mental exaltation."

Riddler doesn't NEED drugs. He has BATMAN.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:20 / 20.02.07
Wonder and horror stalk the streets, skies and subways of Batman's world (as SS was so keen to remind us) and the chances of Joe public impacting with anyone from a Bat-mite to a Dream God is pretty high.

I don't know... you think? There are perhaps as many DC superheroes as there are Hollywood celebrities in our world, and most non-celebrities don't impact with them. I suppose Superman's visibility in Metropolis might be on the level of, I don't know, Trump, or Giuliani? but Batman's whole nature dictates that you don't see much of him. (I'm not going all the way to the urban legend concept of Batman, but I don't think he'd be seen unless he chose to be.)

Would the average Gothamite see Green Lantern except on TV and in the newspapers? Would he or she ever see the Flash, who's only really visible when he's standing still? Aren't most superheroes associated with patrolling a single city, except when they're caught up in some bigtime, international or intergalactic Justice League business? (Which rules out all but maybe a dozen of them anyway).

I don't want to be too pedantic ~ and it certainly isn't my intention to spoil the fun ~ but even Batman doesn't seem to meet Bat-Mite more than once every few years.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:26 / 20.02.07
Riddler doesn't NEED drugs. He has BATMAN.

He could need drugs when Batman's occupied with Two-Face! What I was suggesting was less literal, though; that he could be written like someone on cocaine and speed. Because that's what it does to him, locking into puzzle-combat with Batman.
 
 
Mario
13:50 / 20.02.07
I suppose... but I like the idea of Riddler as more low-key. Almost like Montgomery Burns...

"Well done, Batman," Riddler murmured as he was being taken into custody. "But I won't go as easy on you... next time."

Actually, I could see him running his crimes from WITHIN prison... without the guards even realizing. He's perfect for the whole "prisoner who lives like a king" routine.
 
 
Quantum
15:12 / 20.02.07
Bruce Wayne sprawled out in a beach hut dreaming Gotham

I'd write Batman as Don Quixote and Robin as Sancho Panza. He's old and dangerous crazy, Robin has to look after him to keep him from flipping out completely and manage his interaction with the world while he fights imaginary giants. Alfred as his carer, maybe real-world panels showing the old Bruce in his wheelchair getting pushed around by the boy as he mumbles to himself about the Joker and Catwoman, not year-out playboy batman but senile batman imagining he's crazysexycool. Like Gilliam's Fisher King almost.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:17 / 20.02.07
I don't know... you think? There are perhaps as many DC superheroes as there are Hollywood celebrities in our world, and most non-celebrities don't impact with them.

Well I suppose, except that the average superhero's largely preoccupied with seeing off threats to the general public; if you lived in say, Gotham, the chances are you or someone you knew would have run into Batman or one of the others at some point, however briefly, given the regularity of large scale threats to the city's infrastructure. If nothing else, you'd been keenly aware of the Joker and so on, especially if you lived or worked near the centre of town - the disruption on your evening commute would be fairly hellish, I'd have thought.
 
 
Triplets
17:10 / 20.02.07
And Barbara can't suddenly be Batman.

Are you sure? As MARRIAGE says, there's a lot to be said for the DCU looking like our world but for the rules to be different. As we can see from Batman - with his genius intellect and Olympic-Plus body - the high-end of human potential is a lot higher in the DCU than it is in our world. Perhaps Barbara was born with even greater potential than Batman, hidden in a mediocre life. And what if that was what drove her out in a Bat-costume that night, some unconscious knowing that she was more than a student and daughter to the commish?

What if Barbara could be more Batman than Batman? A true heir to the Batcrown!
 
 
The Natural Way
17:13 / 20.02.07
It seems to me that it's not just threats to the public though, is it? The DCU's full of weird stuff to bump into apart from supervillains. I mean in the Grantiverse you've got a Gotham filled with Superscrapers, New York's secret subways overrun with feral kids and weird pirates, Slaughter Swamps... The list of strange stuff is endless.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:56 / 20.02.07
I love the Riddler! There's just something about all that potential and how he always self destructs. There's no reason he shouldn't be a Batman detective kinda guy, or at least a smart businessman, but he keeps throwing himself in jail, and he keeps feeding information for people to throw him in jail. Really smart guy who has this deep down desire to fail.
 
 
Benny the Ball
18:03 / 20.02.07
I love the idea of him being bigger than he appears - the idea that he only gets caught or accused of those crimes that he admits to through the clues and riddles - what if he was responsible for all crime in gotham in some way?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:15 / 20.02.07
If nothing else, you'd been keenly aware of the Joker and so on, especially if you lived or worked near the centre of town - the disruption on your evening commute would be fairly hellish, I'd have thought.

I totally go for this, yeah. The way I see it, your average Gothamite would have the same relationship with "supervillains" as the average Londoner or New Yorker has with "terrorists" ~ mostly indirect, as a vague threat, though there's a significant minority who have actually come into direct contact with them, and probably had their lives shattered by the encounter.

Are you sure? As MARRIAGE says, there's a lot to be said for the DCU looking like our world but for the rules to be different. As we can see from Batman - with his genius intellect and Olympic-Plus body - the high-end of human potential is a lot higher in the DCU than it is in our world. Perhaps Barbara was born with even greater potential than Batman, hidden in a mediocre life. And what if that was what drove her out in a Bat-costume that night, some unconscious knowing that she was more than a student and daughter to the commish?


I didn't actually see the high-end being higher than in our world. One of the key things I like about Batman is the idea that someone could really do that. Maybe I'm just kidding myself, but it's a big part of the character's appeal for me ~ that in the right circumstances, with the right resources, given the right length of training time, someone really could be Batman.

But I don't see Batman as having any kind of uncanny, abstract "potential". He was a privileged kid, who probably had a lot of quality sports training and was very bright. The rest is what he made himself into. The way I view it, Barbara would have to commit to that level of training, for that long, to reach the same peak of abilities.

I mean in the Grantiverse you've got a Gotham filled with Superscrapers, New York's secret subways overrun with feral kids and weird pirates, Slaughter Swamps... The list of strange stuff is endless.

That's true, but I don't think I'd have that much everyday urban weirdness in the Wonderverse.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:50 / 20.02.07
The way I see it, your average Gothamite would have the same relationship with "supervillains" as the average Londoner or New Yorker has with "terrorists" ~ mostly indirect, as a vague threat, though there's a significant minority who have actually come into direct contact with them, and probably had their lives shattered by the encounter.

Mm, but on the other hand, it would be like living in a New York or London where something like 9/11 happened every six months or so, and incidents like the London tube bombings were a pretty much fortnightly occurrence, with an added element of lurid, psychedelic spectacle - It'd be one thing if a loved one was killed in a crime wave I suppose, but quite another if some guy in a Jokercopter had pulled the trigger. Plus the fact that none of the usual suspects could be given the death penalty, owing to their fairly undeniable insanity.

There'd be the (interesting!) question of what it would do to you, trying to hold down a job, pay the rent and so on in a place like that.

This was partly addressed in 'Dark Knight Returns' but I don't know if anyone's really looked at it since.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:56 / 20.02.07
It would be hard to play right, avoiding any Batman and the War on Terror overtones, but I wonder if you could try to depict Joker's crimes as having the same devastating effects as urban terrorism ~ and have him as incredibly frightening partly because you just can't pin him down ~ he's not so much an individual as a series of explosions, poisonings, gassings. He's just an unpredictable force, a constant threat. The man called Joker is never anywhere near the crimes themselves.

So Joker is an boobytrapped kid's toy on a subway train, the blast maiming a dozen people. Joker is an RC helicopter flown through an open window of the GCPD building on a summer's day, killing ten cops and then exploding again when the rescuers arrive. Joker is six suicide goons with bombs in their clown shoes. The actual Joker, the individual, is elusive like the leader of a terrorist organisation.

I know... it seems like thin ice over tastelessness.

But it would offer an interesting parallel to Batman as crime-fighting team, the model of Batman as head of a unit (with Oracle, Nightwing, Robin et al) ~ to have Joker as an organisation, a terrorist squad. Maybe more terrifying because he doesn't even have any political aims; he can't be bargained with, negotiated with, placated. His agenda is just to hurt Batman, and he hurts Batman by hurting Batman's city, Batman's people.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:57 / 20.02.07
Ah, a kind of cross-post along the same lines there AG.
 
  

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