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Contraception and consequence

 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:41 / 13.02.07
As to quantum: A child is definetly a human being. I dont consider a jumble of fertilised cells that will maybe someday be one to have the same status. So that´s why my view is "slanted" in that respect, yes.

Um. P.S. Might it be worth asking some women about this one?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:17 / 13.02.07
But - perhaps I am imposing my own staid, octogenarian view of this situation. Hmmm. Let me think.

Let's assume for a second that we have a very troubled young man. Maybe he has substance abuse issues, maybe he has a gamblin problem. The point being, in whatever way, that he is likely to rob, cheat or steal from anyone who gives him the opportunity.

Now, it's not unreasonable that such a young man might not be able to make a decision not to have sex with another person, despite his apparent lack of suitability for same. However, he might very sensibly conclude that, were his partner to conceive, and were his partner then to decide to carry the pregnancy to term, it would be a very bad idea for him to be compelled to associate with his partner. So, in those terms there could be a straight and selfless motivation for putting in place a system whereby he would be kept away from the child and there would be no interrelation between himself and the child. That's a bit of a special case, however, which brings us bck to the need to work out the ethics of this as well as the conveniences. My sticking point remains that PB and Saintmae have both posited situations in which the woman gets the shaft, as it were, simply by dint of being the one who gets stuck ... well, holding the the baby. This sort of reminds me a little of the gag about the politically conscious, anti-cruelty tanner, who insists that if there were any way to get the skin off the cow and turn it into a jacket without harming the cow, they would have done it. So, one model has her forcibly deprived of her bodily integrity, the other has the man, for no particular reason except that he is not the one facilitating the gestation, able to draw a close to his conceptual and legal involvement in the act at a time of his choosing...

Having said which, the prenuptual, or precoital, agreement at least tells the other party where she stands early on, which might be useful. It just... it feels wrong, but that is more conceptual than necessarily logistical.
 
 
saintmae
11:09 / 14.02.07
PB and Saintmae have both posited situations in which the woman gets the shaft, as it were, simply by dint of being the one who gets stuck ... well, holding the the baby.

The thing is... the current system leaves the woman stuck holding the baby already. A single woman's custody of her child is assumed both legally and socially, and a man has to go through some serious legal work to get any custody at all if she does not automatically agree. There is a cultural assumption that a baby is the woman's to take care of, and while many women are happy to have automatic custody, I think this also has the unwanted effects of disempowering fatherhood in general and helping to keep many more single women in poverty than single men.

I see this whole discussion as being about the very difficult task of trying to legally and socially create gender equality (or at least fairness) around the subject of reproduction - a subject that is both not equal physically due to its nature, and not equal socially due to gender role expectations and economic disparities borne of prejudice and gender role expectations.

I intended to suggest that in the case of serious disagreement, the one who *wants* the baby is the only one stuck holding it (and not the unwilling partner), or else the woman aborts (so no one holds the baby at all).

Vasectomies are good, as are long term birth control solutions for women (Essure, tubal ligation, IUD) but as someone else said, many doctors will not perform these procedures on people under 30 or those who do not have children already. This is starting to change, and I can only hope it continues to do so.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:56 / 14.02.07
It's possible that I am failing to understand your position, SM, but as I understand it you were suggesting that in cases where one potential parent wanted an abortion and the other potential parent did not, the pregnancy would be terminated by law.

And this, I think, is a stumbling block if one is seeking a solution based on gender equality - because it means that, by insisting on an abortion, the potential father can force the potential mother to undergo a medical process against her will - that is, can render her legally equivalent to a child or owned animal on the strength of having had sex with her one or more times. One might perhaps make this more fair by inserting a codicil to the effect that a woman can at any point in the relationship _before_ conception insist that her partner have a vasectomy, which will then be carried out under force of law and regardless of whether he consents in the matter. Even that, though, is not quite right, for reasons both practical and symbolic...

So, for me there is this breaker about the function of women's consent in this model, which short-circuits consideration of other issues of gender priority. Is there a way around this?
 
 
el d.
14:32 / 14.02.07
I intended to suggest that in the case of serious disagreement, the one who *wants* the baby is the only one stuck holding it (and not the unwilling partner), or else the woman aborts (so no one holds the baby at all).


My point exactly, the realisation of which I tried to sketch before.

Please note that the woman in this scenario only aborts if both partners agree on not having a baby. I´d say the woman has the right to abort at her own will as well, as she´s the one who´ll give birth.

The main problem, if you ask me, continues to be of a financial nature, and as such can only be solved by either individual responsibility as advocated by haus, or a communal one.

Contrasting these two, I´d say tax money spent on kids is never wasted (except, well, when it´s wasted by the officials in charge, but that´s another matter), whereas in the case of individual responsibility the woman continues to be dependent on her former partner for financial support.

The problem with vasotectomy is still that it´s basically not always reversible. As such, it´s still a big decision including the possibility to never have kids.
 
 
Quantum
09:00 / 15.02.07
As to quantum: A child is definetly a human being. I dont consider a jumble of fertilised cells that will maybe someday be one to have the same status.

OK. But what I was asking was, do you have children? To broaden the question somewhat, have you ever been faced with the decision of what to do with a jumble of fertilised cells, some of which carry your DNA? Is this an issue you have actually encountered in your life, or are these musings on pre-coital contracts simply abstract intellectual musings akin to 'If you had to kill a dog or a family of meerkats which would you choose?'.

I ask because you might find, faced with a real life pregnancy, that your opinions may change. Also because historically, people getting into trouble in the Headshop around sensitive issues have often turned out to have never experienced them, never asked somebody of the group they are debating what they *actually* think, and constructed a detailed house of cards that is intellectually satisfying but as divorced from reality as a CGI baby is from a real baby.

Linkage by way of example, already mentioned upthread.
 
 
Quantum
09:02 / 15.02.07
The main problem, if you ask me, continues to be of a financial nature

I'd also have to disagree with you there. I don't think the financial problem is uppermost in people's minds when considering termination.
 
 
el d.
09:16 / 15.02.07
Well, I´m male, never had a girlfriend pregnant, and am of the opinion that there is no such thing as a transcendent human soul. So, yeah, apart from theoretical musings, I´ve got nothing to offer on the matter except being in the risk group of potential parents because of contraception failure.

Perhaps my opinions will change when the time comes, but I doubt it.

I don't think the financial problem is uppermost in people's minds when considering termination.

So what´s in their minds then?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
12:35 / 15.02.07
It's possible that I am failing to understand your position, SM, but as I understand it you were suggesting that in cases where one potential parent wanted an abortion and the other potential parent did not, the pregnancy would be terminated by law.

I was under the impression that hir position was that the pregnancy should either be terminated, or the woman, if she so desired, could give birth to the baby, but the father would have absolutely no rights or responsibilities in relation to it, just as if the woman had got herself pregnant (with intention to be a single mother) by using a sperm donor. Ze also expressed a preference for abortion over this scenario, due to the undeniable reality of there being both too many people in general, and specifically too many unwanted children/people, in the world. Which, if no coercion is actually advocated, seems reasonable to me.

I actually think that whether someone's opinions, as an individual, would change if ze was confronted with a real-life unwanted pregnancy situation is somewhat irrelevant - that line of argument draws too close IMO to an essentialist standpoint argument of "well, if you had actually experienced X, you would inevitably believe Y". Which, given the infinite diversity of human mindsets and experiences, simply isn't true. It's perfectly possible, and given the size of the population of the world and the diversity of cultures, personal circumstances, etc, pretty much statistically inevitable, that significant numbers of people will hold all of the positions expressed in this thread (and more).

So what´s in their minds then?

In the cases of those of my friends who have had to make that decision, mostly the social shame and stigma, particularly in family contexts, of either an abortion or an "illegitimate" child, and the
emotional impact of doing something that people close to the woman in question, if not the woman in question herself, might consider morally equivalent to murder. Which problems, obviously, would exist less without nasty, patriarchal and emotionally manipulative religions and cultural traditions, but can't really be idealised out of existence...

As an aside:

The problem with vasotectomy is still that it´s basically not always reversible. As such, it´s still a big decision including the possibility to never have kids.

Well, for some, including me, that's not a problem, but a solution. For reasons i can't be bothered to go into here, i have a lot emotionally invested in wanting to make sure that i never conceive a child, even if at some hypothetical future point in my life i might change my mind and want one - so, for me, the problem with vasectomy is (as well as the fact that doctors can and do refuse it on the grounds of age or childlessness) that it sometimes is reversible.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
12:38 / 15.02.07
Oh yeah, in response to this:

Let's assume for a second that we have a very troubled young man. Maybe he has substance abuse issues, maybe he has a gamblin problem. The point being, in whatever way, that he is likely to rob, cheat or steal from anyone who gives him the opportunity.

Now, it's not unreasonable that such a young man might not be able to make a decision not to have sex with another person, despite his apparent lack of suitability for same. However, he might very sensibly conclude that, were his partner to conceive, and were his partner then to decide to carry the pregnancy to term, it would be a very bad idea for him to be compelled to associate with his partner. So, in those terms there could be a straight and selfless motivation for putting in place a system whereby he would be kept away from the child and there would be no interrelation between himself and the child. That's a bit of a special case, however, which brings us bck to the need to work out the ethics of this as well as the conveniences.


IMO and IME, that's not a "special case", but an extremely common case, possibly even a majority case in some areas of the UK. It's certainly a very good description of the fathers and/or baby-fathers of many of the people i grew up with...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:42 / 15.02.07
Hmmm. But is it that they should be kept away from their children, and not expected to provide any support, or simply that they would rather not provide any support, NRJ? To go further - if you use general taxation rather than parental contribution as your model, then men under the level of general taxation, or working in the grey economy, actually have no reason not to father children - they no longer have to take any responsibility for them, even by contributing to better childcare through general taxation, per PB's model.

I was under the impression that hir position was that the pregnancy should either be terminated, or the woman, if she so desired, could give birth to the baby, but the father would have absolutely no rights or responsibilities in relation to it, just as if the woman had got herself pregnant (with intention to be a single mother) by using a sperm donor. Ze also expressed a preference for abortion over this scenario, due to the undeniable reality of there being both too many people in general, and specifically too many unwanted children/people, in the world. Which, if no coercion is actually advocated, seems reasonable to me.

I think you are confusing or conflating Philanthropic Bak. (evade) and SaintMae. SaintMae said:

Personally, I believe that if anyone involved wants an abortion, that's what should happen.

So, no. SaintMae's model does involve coersion - the father can force the mother to have an abortion, if she is unable to persuade him not to choose abortion for her, and he is unable to persuade her to terminate the pregnancy of her own free will.

On rights and responsibilities - actually, I think PB has only covered responsibilities - he was talking specifically about not having to pay child support if one's partner had previously agreed not to carry your child to term. The idea of also surrendering rights I suggested as a logical correlative to this - to cease to be meaningfully or legally the father, as in your sperm donation case.
 
 
Quantum
13:44 / 15.02.07
So what´s in their minds then?

Pretty much what nataraja said- if the father buggers off, the ethical and emotional issues, familial difficulties and social stigma etc. but I was actually thinking that a lot of people who have unexpected pregnancies mostly consider how strong and stable their relationship is and whether they wish to commit to 18 years plus of child raising, if the child would have a good life, things like that. The financial issue is much less important, in my experience.
 
 
Quantum
12:29 / 16.02.07
Here's a perspective from the other side, rather than compelling women to abort Fathers should be compelled to look after their children in an effort to tackle the breakdown of family life and discipline in society David Cameron, the Conservative leader, said today.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:45 / 19.02.07
I intended to suggest that in the case of serious disagreement, the one who *wants* the baby is the only one stuck holding it (and not the unwilling partner), or else the woman aborts (so no one holds the baby at all).

Very few women who actively do not want children are going to carry one for 9 months in a country with legalised abortion so isn't this generally (in the UK at least) what happens now?
 
 
HCE
16:18 / 19.02.07
I hope to g-d that's not what happens now, because if "the one who *wants* the baby" is the father and "the unwilling partner" is the mother, what has to happen in order for the father to be "the only one stuck holding it"? I don't know which suggestion is more appalling -- forcing a woman to have an abortion she doesn't want, or forcing a woman to remain pregnant.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
22:42 / 19.02.07
This might not contribute much to the debate, but it just struck me that there are some assumptions implicit in this debate that needs, mefinks, airing.

Ho-kay. So the situation as sketched is this: A man and a woman are engaging in potentially baby-creating activities. The man, at time X before a pregnancy with aforementioned woman, may have a position for (YES) or against (NO) bringing a pregnancy, baby, to term and become a life-long (hopefully) father and carer for his child. Ditto for woman/mother/carer.

If both have the same opinion and do not change it after conception, we have no conflict.

But, if they differ from the outset, or one of the parties have a change of heart after conception - voila, we have a conundrum. I believe one of the fundamental assumptions throughout the thread is that the answers and outcomes depend to a large degree on what ethical (and legal) rights and obligations are accorded to each party regarding abortion and who has the say-so to terminate or gestate.

In the UK, where I live at the moment, it isn't the woman's right alone to choose abortion. Legally the 1967 Abortion Act "did not legalise abortions, but rather provided a legal defence for those carrying them out.

Abortions can legally be performed under certain conditions - the first is that continuing with the pregnancy involves a greater risk to the physical or mental health of the woman, or her existing children, than having a termination.

The woman's "actual or reasonably foreseeable future environment" may be taken into account.

Abortion up to 24 weeks is also allowed if there is a substantial risk that the child when born would suffer "such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped".

An abortion must be agreed by two doctors (or one in an emergency) and carried out by a doctor in a government-approved hospital or clinic.
Source: BBC.

I'm not great on Roe v Wade, so I'll leave that to others. My point is that in England, Scotland and Wales, abortion is, for official purposes, legally and ethically a matter between a woman and her doctors. The man does not, legally, enter into the decision. (An aside: If anyone with a law degree can come to the rescue here I would be grateful - what would the validity be of a contract which stipulates that a pregnancy must be terminated asap if either party says so?)

It seems, though, that what occupies the majority of the posters is the ethical rights and obligations pertaining to the father more than the mother. The default in Great Britain is that the mother has the right to abortion given that the risks of continuing the pregnancy outweigh the risks of termination (as determined jointly by herself and her GPs).

This assumes, as do many of the posters above, that it is the woman, the person whose germ-cells has with the man's sperm jointly produced the fetus, and whose womb alone will gestate that fetus, that has the right to decide on the future course of action, given the legal limits to that right.

Now, Haus said way up on the first page that Saintmae's point, I believe, sleaze, is that men should not be responsible for raising children they do not want, just because they put their penis in a woman's vagina and moved it in and out until semen came out of the end. Add %%%s of course. The point being that men are as responsible for the making of babies as are the women and that therefore they are as responsible for the upbringing of their spawn.

Well, after much hot air, I believe I finally have a point to make. Possibly in the form of a question:
Men and women are equally responsible for the care of their kid(s) - as Haus and others said. But women (in GB) have the say-so on whether the kid will ever be. How has this been justified? What makes the woman's decision more weighty than the man's in the matter of termination? Or put another way: How did GB get from the absolute illegality of abortion in the 19th century to the status quo, and what where the arguments that persuaded the lawmakers and the public? I'm assuming when I ask this that couples/women seek abortions not only in the event of pathology or injury to either fetus or mother, but also as a "lifestyle choice", ie. abortion is had because having a baby is a serious "inconvenience" more so than a medical risk. (Incredibly inept way of phrasing it, I know... Can anyone see past my logorrhea and put it succintly and elegantly?)

I'm emphatically not trying to be sarcastic, or implying that the GB status quo is right or just. I'd sincerely like to hear your views, and be enlightened. Thanks. Phew. Sleep.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:54 / 19.02.07
Men and women are equally responsible for the care of their kid(s) - as Haus and others said.

Actually, I don't think I did say that. I said that men and women were both responsible for the occurrence of pregnancy. Not the same thing. Saintmae was arguing that men should not have to take responsibility for the raising of children just because they impregnated the woman who gave birth to them, as I quoted above. I'm not quite sure why you need the percentage marks, either. I'm not actually sure why one would ever need percentage marks, but that's another issue. What I was trying to address there was the idea that pregnancy was just something that happened to women, and that it was just rotten luck if you happened to be caught going out with her if it happened, but not really any of your concern apart from the unfairness of the law. This idea seems unsafe. There are all sorts of things that you can do to reduce the chance of an unwanted pregancy, starting at finding out your potential partner's attitudes to childbirth and abortion and working down from there.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
08:38 / 20.02.07
arhh.. you're right, haus, my bad. the %%s were me implying that I thought you were being just a tad sarcastic.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:16 / 20.02.07
No worries. With a bit more time to hand... I think you have three questions there. The first is a simple inquiry:

(An aside: If anyone with a law degree can come to the rescue here I would be grateful - what would the validity be of a contract which stipulates that a pregnancy must be terminated asap if either party says so?)


I'd say as a layperson that one could, like a pre-nup, have fun writing this, but it would have no force in law, not least because "we signed a contract" is not generally considered to be a good reason to procure an abortion - it would have to be demonstrated that the contract underwrote some deeper physical or psychological need. You might have better luck with a contract specifying that one partner would not have the rights or obligations of a parent, but the CSA or similar might not be up for that either.

Your second question appears to be about the history of abortion law in the UK:

Or put another way: How did GB get from the absolute illegality of abortion in the 19th century to the status quo, and what where the arguments that persuaded the lawmakers and the public?

I think in response to that that it's worth going back before the 19th century. Britain has historically managed unwanted pregnancy through abortifacients - under English common law, abortion before "quickening" was legal - basically, the point at which the foetus was considered alive. Scottish common law made abortion illegal unless there was a reputable medical reason, which covered enough ground to make abortion a pretty safe process, legally speaking.

Depending on your position either the village wise woman's role was then usurped by the a patriarchal medical establishment seeking to limit women's control over their fertility or humane doctors attempted to put a stop to dangerous and unhygienic practices by pushing for the prohibition of performing abortions in the Offences Against the Person Act 1803. I think trying to get, rather than perform, an abortion was still legal until the Offences Against the Person Act of 1861.

This was dodgy law, because unrealistic, and in 1929 the possibility of legal abortion for the physical safety of the mother was introduced. This was broadened in 1938 to the psychological health of the mother - specifically in a case of pregnancy resulting from rape, which I think is one of the more dramatic examples of a non-physical but transcendent-of-convenience situation; "for reasons not directly connected to the immediate physical welfare of mother and foetus but with consideration of longer-term consequences for either" might be better. And then we get to the Abortion Act of 1967. So, really, prohibition of abortion was a 19th-century spasm in a long tradition of British women having access to abortion. There's the Northern Ireland question as well, of course, but that's another matter.

However, this is not quite the same question as:

What makes the woman's decision more weighty than the man's in the matter of termination?

For a very long time, the simple answer to this has to be that the woman is certain and can assert without fear of contradiction that the child is hers. Since paternity can still only be established post partum, there is still a vestige of this, although the father can usually be identified at that point. Until really quite recently, a man who did not want to be involved in the raising of a child could simply not be involved in the raising of a child, unless compelled so to do by a preexisting arrangement - to wit, a marriage (presumption of rightful paternity). If you and I have been Paul Reiser and Greg Evigan, should one, both or neither of us have the right to terminate a pregnancy that is only certainly the pregnancy of Marcy Bradford (not portrayed)?

In the case of a pregnancy where paternity is certain and uncontested... well. I think this reminds me of an earlier discussion about abortion on Barbelith, where one member suggested that the issue would fairly shortly become moot, because technology would allow us to transplant and grow foetuses in test tubes from very early on in the process of gestation. It was then pointed out that the technology would also neeed to exist to remove the foetus from the womb in a non-intrusive fashion, which seems to be yet further beyond the bounds of science than the artifical womb in the first place. At the time, I asked:

if the child is outside the womb, and thus not the *responsibility* of the biological mother in the sense that she must deal with bearing it to term within her own body, does she lose any claim to be more intimately involved in the process than the father, who contributed half of the genetic material?

I think that's still quite a big question.

So, hypothesis. If, at the moment of conception, a pod materialised by means arcane in a warehouse somewhere with a tag naming the mother and father attached, in which pod the foetus was gestating, and if this pod had a big red button attached to it the pressing of which caused that foetus to vanish, would the man and the woman be equally entitled to press that red button, regardless of the wishes of the other party, and terminate the pregnancy?

Partly, that probably depends on whether or not you believe that a foetus has the same legal rights to life of a child - opinions will differ on whether either should be allowed to press the button, and for how long the option of pressing the button would be open to them. Personally, I'd probably agree at that point with SaintMae - that is, if either parent did not want the foetus to be gestating in the pod then they should have the right to press the button. Then you get onto weirdness involving grandparents, partners who did not provide the genetic information and so on - in a sense, the "contributed biological information" identifier for a parent can be a bit of an arbitrary delineator, So, maybe you would need some sort of arbitration - doctors or a judge or similar - to ensure that all interested parties had the option of being involved in the discussion about the foetus' future. Or you could just apply a hard rule - the two participants get the key to the warehouse, either can go in and press the red button, and that's that. No right of veto.

Now, you might say at this point, "But, Haus, you deluded virgin, such a situation is mere fantasy. The foetus is not in a pod in a warehouse, but inside the body of a woman". Which would be fair enough, and I think is kind of my point. When we talk about the "matter of termination", we're not talking about a process performed upon a separated third party. We are talking about a thing that is done to a collection of cells in a woman's body, which will involve the woman in question being given chemicals which alter the function of her body, quite possibly having a syringe or electric pump or curette placed inside her body, or in later stages being cut open, having a caustic solution injected into her amnion, or various other processes.

Now, these processes are often described in lurid detail by opponents of women's rights to choose abortion, but that's missing the point. Of course they are icky. Medical and surgical procedures are icky. The questions that seem uppermost to me are: a) should a woman have the right to make her body available to these processes in certain (I would say most) circumstances in response to a pregnancy and b) should a woman have the right not to make her body available to these processes as a result of her co-parent's response to her pregnancy.

I would say yes and yes to these questions. At this point, the foetus is inside her body, and her right to the sovereignty of her body is paramount unless there are really good reasons to violate it in this specific case. "There are too many children in the world", "I don't think I would be able to give this child a worthwhile life", or "the father cannot be trusted to provide meaningful emotional or financial support" are all, in my humble, perfectly good reasons for a woman to seek an abortion, but none of them are good reasons for anyone else to make the same woman have her body subjected to medical or surgical intervention against her will.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
11:08 / 20.02.07
Quoting Haus:

The questions that seem uppermost to me are: a) should a woman have the right to make her body available to these processes in certain (I would say most) circumstances in response to a pregnancy and b) should a woman have the right not to make her body available to these processes as a result of her co-parent's response to her pregnancy.

I would say yes and yes to these questions. At this point, the foetus is inside her body, and her right to the sovereignty of her body is paramount unless there are really good reasons to violate it in this specific case. "There are too many children in the world", "I don't think I would be able to give this child a worthwhile life", or "the father cannot be trusted to provide meaningful emotional or financial support" are all, in my humble, perfectly good reasons for a woman to seek an abortion, but none of them are good reasons for anyone else to make the same woman have her body subjected to medical or surgical intervention against her will.


I agree with you on a. I would go further and say that a woman has always and everywhere a right to self-determination, and as such has the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy for whatever reason, given she's informed about the medical risks and benefits of doing so.

As for b... Hmmm. As you explained, the disparity between the rights of women and men in regards to abortion rests partly on the fact that the woman knows she is the mother, whereas the man usually has to wait until birth to ascertain fatherhood. Let's try another example that does not rely on sci-fi.

X and Y combine their ova and sperm in vitro, as in in vitro fertilisation. There will now be a period of two days until the fertilised ova become embryos that can be transplanted into a uterus. Has the fact that the embryo is now outside the mother in your opinion changed the relative decision-making weight of the man and woman regarding termination (which in this case would the choice not to transplant the embryo to the uterus)?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:23 / 20.02.07
Interesting. Just to check - this zygote/embryo/wossface in the test tube has been created from the egg of person a and the sperm of person b, right? And is now to be placed into the womb of person a, to be brought to term and then delivered to the custody of persons a and b, who are to be the legal parents?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:26 / 20.02.07
Sorry! Typo. Read "person a" for "person c"...
 
 
Closed for Business Time
12:23 / 20.02.07
Yup, that was the hypothetical plan.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
12:25 / 20.02.07
And just for the record - I believe this situation places the man and the woman on equal footing with regards to termination, or in this case, a decision not to transplant the embryo to the uterus.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:57 / 20.02.07
Yes - I think I'd agree. I mean, what you basically have there _is_ the "pod-with-a-button" situation, in a way. You can terminate the foetus (or allow it to become non-viable) without any invasion of anyone's bodies. Pragmatically, you have also made it clear that you don't consider an embryo of this size and level of development to have a right to life, because you have thrown the rest away, but let's leave that for now.

Obviously, you would horribly disrupt the woman's right to self-determination if you implanted the embryo against her will - you'd be a mad scientist, in fact. And implanting it in the man would be pretty useless, whether he was willing or not.

Does the man have the right to demand the embryo not be implanted and the woman no right of veto? I'd say yes, probably. The relative complexity of getting to this point for the woman as opposed to the man shouldn't have any bearing on the next step, should it?

So, by that logic either can refuse to allow the next step to take place, and neither can enforce a demand that it does take place, because the embryo is an equal property between them both, as is the act of implantation. Having said which, I can imagine that in this situation, where great time, energy and discomfort have been spent or endured, it would be less likely that either party would want to call a halt. If one did, I imagine that the other would be entitled to feel quite annoyed, and possibly to seek some form of reparation for the time and expense they had spent in pursuit of the pregnancy; I really don't know how that works. However, that entitlement would not, I think, extend beyond that.

So, it looks like my sensitive point is the body, which I thought was probably the case all the way along. Although I am increasingly interested in this fault-line between the man/woman directly involved in the process and everyone else...
 
 
sorenson
01:48 / 21.02.07
I think it raises more issues than it solves to relate the theoretical pod argument to the science and practice of IVF.

To start with, and this is just a personal bugbear of mine, unfortunately you cannot 'implant' an embryo into a woman's uterus. You can only gently put it there (known as a 'transfer'), and then hope like mad that it goes on to implant itself. Even in women with the best prognoses, there is still only about a 30 per cent chance that the embryo will stick. But maybe that is beside the point.

More importantly, I don't think IVF works as a 'pure' theoretical space to contemplate issues of contraception and consequence, because of the myriad social and emotional issues that are tied up in it. For example, as Haus said, in this situation, where great time, energy and discomfort have been spent or endured, it would be less likely that either party would want to call a halt. There are also situations in which the two parties that contributed genetic material to the embryo don't, in fact, have veto priveleges. For example, in my own situation, we have a bunch of frozen embryos that consist of my partner's eggs and our donor's sperm. Despite the fact that the embryos were formed with his genetic material, our donor has no legal rights over them and can't veto their use. (He can, however, at any time veto the use of his sperm that is in storage before it used to make embryos).

To clarify, is the issue we are trying to resolve here what rights and responsibilities various parties have with respect to embryos, fetuses and children? If so, I agree with Haus that the biological fact that babies are grown inside women's bodies does mean that there are differences in the rights and responsibilities of women and men, even though the biological fact of the genetic composition of children may suggest otherwise.

That is, I think that the bodily experience of pregnancy and/or abortion has more weight in the argument than the contribution of genetic material.

I'm just going to leave it at that for the moment because I need to get back to work, but I'll return to tease out the implications of this difference later.
 
 
Olulabelle
11:44 / 22.02.07
Natalie Evans has had her claim to her frozen embryos refused because her ex-partner does now not want to have children with her despite the fact that these are the only biological children she could have. That's a current example of the man's opinion already being taken into account when the embryos are created externally.

As for situations where babies are being created internally (within the woman) I think that this: There are too many children in the world", "I don't think I would be able to give this child a worthwhile life", or "the father cannot be trusted to provide meaningful emotional or financial support" are all, in my humble, perfectly good reasons for a woman to seek an abortion, but none of them are good reasons for anyone else to make the same woman have her body subjected to medical or surgical intervention against her will. about sums it up really. Absolutely men have a say about a foetus created externally from a woman's body, but once that foetus becomes part of the woman by being within her the only person who has any say over the medical treatment of her body should be the woman herself. If you begin to factor in the man's 'right' to make the woman have an abortion then where do you end? Does he then get to have a say over her eating habits, her sleeping habits, whether she smokes, drinks, eats too much chocolate, whatever? Could she be forced to eat the 'correct' food because she is in care of his baby? That's just crazytown.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
12:43 / 22.02.07
Olulabelle - I think you'd be interested to know that Norway is AFAIK the only country in the world where pregnant drug addicts/alcoholics can be admitted without their consent to state provided detox and treatment institutions. The decision to do so is taken by regional social services if there are grounds to believe, beyond reasonable doubt, that the child will be born with somatic trauma as a result of the mothers substance abuse.

Otherwise I agree with you that Crazybatshitville awaits if "[...] he then get {sic} to have a say over her eating habits, her sleeping habits, whether she smokes, drinks, eats too much chocolate, whatever". But I would add the caveat that if the mother is likely to harm herself or the baby, surely the man (and other concerned parties) has at least an obligation to somehow influence the woman away from such behaviour? And that would surely mean discouraging smoking, excessive drinking and too little/too much/too shit nutrition? Or would you argue that since the baby is inside the mother, and she can do whatever the hell she wants with her own body (of which the fetus can arguably be said to be a part of), thus the man can in essence fuck off?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
13:13 / 22.02.07
An update from the Guardian on Ms. Evan's case.
Basically, she lost out in the first hearing at the European court of human rights, but appealed. I can't find anything newer, maybe it's still undecided.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:12 / 22.02.07
Well, my first question would be how you define a concerned party. Prospective grandparents? Prospective uncles or aunts? Friends? The second would be how you define influence.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:34 / 22.02.07
TVoH: Concerned party, not that I think I can exhaust the term or define it once and for all, I'd think of as the other prospective father first and foremost, and thereafter anyone who has put substantial amounts of time and effort into creating and maintaining a positive relationship with the prospective mother, whether they be relatives or not. But see Norwegian law for other views on that..

Influence I can't even begin to try and define. Even though I'm trained as a social psychologist.
Merriam-Webster says 1 : to affect or alter by indirect or intangible means : SWAY
2 : to have an effect on the condition or development of : MODIFY
. Doesn't really help, IMO.

Immensely interesting tho. How do prospective fathers try to influence their impregnated lovers/WAGS/one night stands, be it pro or con abortion? In the light of the fact that GB law says it's a decision for the mother + 2 MDs.
 
 
This Sunday
21:40 / 26.03.07
You can't really enforce responsibility, though. You can drive someone to mimic it, via threat of law, violence, or finance, but it's not exactly the same as just being stand-up and dealing with the situation at hand in a respectable and responsible manner.

The best I've ever managed was to henpeck and criticise 'til the other party feels like an ass, and transfigure myself into a possibly even bigger ass, at the same time.

I think what gets me upset is when someone does things they know will probably lead to X, when they clearly don't want X, but expect other parties should immediately deal with the inevitable X when it shows up on the doorstep.

And I can't even get into the whole abort/not-abort thing, because I clearly have different views on murder than pretty much the planet, so it's not an issue to me of the swarm of cells being alive or not.

But, seriously, I have to ask, am I the only person who can have, y'know, sexual engagement with a person of the opposite gender in ways that clearly aren't likely to produce little anklebiters? And not have it be simply a question of 'not doing it the best way' or somesuch silliness? I'd like to believe Foucalt's 'sex is boring' was overreaching, but...
 
 
This Sunday
21:55 / 26.03.07
And, really, not that I don't find it awkward to cop a Bill Hicks routine totally, but, those who are so big on 'saving a child' should probably do something useful for kids that are already walking around breathing. Because a lot of them have shit situations and could use the help/comfort.

Or, at least, do really damned good by their own.

Me, I like other people's kids. Emphasis on 'other'. But there are quite a significant number of kids who aren't the problem, so much as their 'people' are. Can we start an international 'abort some parents' movement and see how that'll carry?

Nah. Somebody'd turn it into 'queer and interracial parents are a danger to society' or something. Instead of the constructive mass-murder I'm calling for righteously.
 
  

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