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Contraception and consequence

 
  

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JOY NO WRY
16:56 / 08.02.07
In depth debate hasn't really been appropriate in the threads recently dealing with this issue, and I feel like it may be beneficial to get our teeth into it. Born (sorry) as much of my own constant paranoia as of Triplets recent dilemma, I would ultimately like this thread to be a place to ask new questions about parenthood and, more specifically, the avoidance of parenthood.

The first issue that I've been wondering about is one that struck me as I was reading Triplets thread - He had to deal with a partner changing her mind on what to do in case of pregnancy after she became pregnant. Lets say that one has a partner with whom one has agreement on what to do in a case of unexpected pregnancy - what would be the best response if that partner changed their mind at some point before such an event had occured? I'm sure that this must happen all of the time, and the reason that it seems an interesting question to me is that opinions on such questions must be rather fundamental to determining the direction of long-term relationships where unwanted pregnancy is an option.

Your thoughts, please.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:28 / 08.02.07
I recall a case here in Michigan, fairly recent I think, where a man challenged his order to pay child support on the basis that his partner had explicitly stated that she would terminate an accidental pregnancy, and then became pregnant and gave birth to the child.

He lost his initial case, but he was taking it further up the chain the last I heard of it. I'm going to try to find out what happened with that.
 
 
Ex
08:12 / 09.02.07
Interesting thread - I will return, but wanted to put in a quick plea for staying off Triplet's specifics. Partly because he may not want to be discussed as a case (he can always kickstart his own thread to get more input) and also because it may lead to quibbling over the details of his situation rather than broadening out.

Just as a quick thought, and I know it's wandering off somewhat from your admirable suggested direction: I'm rereading some late seventies/early eighties novels and they continually reference two things. Firstly, the dodgy side-effects of the early version of the pill, and secondly the fact that the chap characters expect ladies to be completely baby-proof because of the existence of the pill. One of the characters says 'You're putting me on! This is the twentieth century!' - when actually, most of the twentieth century hasn't had reliable and readily available contraceptives.

I'm trying to work out whether contraception has induced a kind of blindspot about the possibility of pregnancy, or whether actually people (possibly particularly chaps) have always avoided thinking about pregnancy, and contraception is just the latest prop to this amnesia. Possibly previously you'd have had a raft of myths about doing it standing up, doing it for the first time, doing it on a Wednesday afternoon and eating polos etc. to diminish one's sense of risk.
 
 
JOY NO WRY
10:03 / 09.02.07
a quick plea for staying off Triplet's specifics

Good point. That should be clear from the start, and I should have said so.

As to the effectiveness of the pill, I had a friend who this became a major issue for. Basically he and his partner had opposed views on abortion, but he wasn't too worried because she was on the pill. However, when he heard the statistic that the pill is only some 99% effective (not sure how true this is), he immediately noted that he'd had sex with his partner at least a hundred times, and had a bit of a panic.
When he suggested that he use condoms as an addition to the pill, his partner (who as I understand it believed that the 1% of failure was down to people not using the pill properly) got quite upset. She made the point that the various degrees of hormonal discomfort that she had suffered from as a result of taking the pill were endured for his benefit i.e. the additional enjoyment of bareback love. So if he started using additional protection then she would stop taking the pill.

I'm not really sure how the whole thing was resolved but I do know that he spend some time getting pretty stressed about this. If one trusts one's partner to use contraception wisely, does that changes one's own responsibilities? Does having opposed views on abortion change things?
 
 
saintmae
12:49 / 09.02.07
My solution to this has been to make a solid decision for myself about what would happen in the case of unwanted pregnancy, and to inform every potential partner of this before it could become an issue. If we have violently differing views, I don't have sex with them that could involve pregnancy. I simply do not fuck the pro-life. This is a dealbreaker issue for me. Luckily, I don't think anyone particularly pro-life would want to be intimate with me in the first place, so this works out ok for everyone.

In the case of someone changing their mind... what do you do? Personally, I believe that if anyone involved wants an abortion, that's what should happen. We have enough unwanted and disputed children in the world already, why bring in another? Not to mention the lack of control fathers often have in these matters, even when they will be forced to pay support by the state. But even as anti-pregnancy as I am, I have to admit that forcing someone to commit (or be party to) an act that they feel is equivalent to murder is equally if not more abhorrent than living in a hijacked body bringing an unwanted child to term, and raising it (or fathering it).

The only real solution I can think of is to set a firm and unchanging policy that you share upfront, and to sleep with men who agree with you (if you are female) or to only sleep with women who have firm and unchanging policies that agree with your morals (if you are male).

Or, hey, there's always homosexuality. :}
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
14:25 / 09.02.07
. _ (may I call you that for short?): Lets say that one has a partner with whom one has agreement on what to do in a case of unexpected pregnancy - what would be the best response if that partner changed their mind at some point before such an event had occurred? I'm sure that this must happen all of the time, and the reason that it seems an interesting question to me is that opinions on such questions must be rather fundamental to determining the direction of long-term relationships where unwanted pregnancy is an option.

This strikes me as a slightly static representation of a long-term relationship (no criticism intended, this is purely my opinion) and that the possible difference between an unexpected and an unwanted pregnancy might be quite complicated, and how that might effect the actions/decisions of each partner.

Speaking from my own experience of relationships and what I’ve observed in the relationships of those around me, the circumstances and situations in which this event comes up can be so very different. For a start, I’ve always worked on the assumption that the majority of women fall somewhere on an expecting-to-have-children-in-their-lives spectrum from the vague, ‘one-day’ end, to the ‘it’s what I want and is a massive part of my life’ end. I base this assumption on my many years’ experience as a woman who has not only not shown an inclination to have children, but has been fairly firm in the decision not to – let’s call that the ‘freak-woman’ approach, although in fairness things are now much better. Why would not wanting children be seen as so odd if the vast majority didn’t want them? Of course, there are many women who don’t want to have children, but I think they are in a minority and are still treated as such (this is a subject for another thread, though, so I won’t go on – my freak-woman comment is meant in a light-hearted spirit of reflecting the othering I have experienced from this position).

Every position on this spectrum is equally valid as is the non-children approach, imo. I believe that the vast majority of men also fall somewhere on that spectrum – although the non-child wanting man would probably be lauded and envied rather than othered.

I therefore think that many people’s attitudes/opinions/policies on having children are a lot more ambiguous than they might first seem. It’s a pretty big question and I think this ambiguity is a healthy and good thing. I would hope that I, even though for many years I have felt I do not want children, wouldn’t so close my mind as to not be open to asking myself the question again every now and then.

I think at heart, it can often be a question of when, which can be tied to a question of who, rather than ultimately a question of whether or not. Less a matter, on either side, of pro-life vs pro-choice – more do I want this now, do I want this with you, or not? I believe that some people do change opinion from opposed to or for abortion (I’m not a big fan of the pro- terms), but I suspect that’s less common.

In an ideal world, the minute one partner feels like their mind changed from let’s say the one-day position to somewhere a little further up the scale, they should raise it with the other partner and reassess where they’re both at. But for lots of reasons, that might not happen. I suppose I think that would be the ‘best response’ to the question you posed above. You both have a discussion in light of one person’s changed feelings and see what kind of fit you can make and act accordingly. I agree that this is an issue that could be fundamental to long-term relationships, but I’m not sure it can be fixed so rigidly at any given point in a long relationship.

Saintmae’s suggestion: set a firm and unchanging policy that you share upfront, and to sleep with men who agree with you (if you are female) or to only sleep with women who have firm and unchanging policies that agree with your morals (if you are male). is perfectly sound in theory and the ideal starting point, but how you go about finding people with long-term ‘unchanging policies’ strikes me as quite difficult. Bit of a blather, this turned into. I hope I haven’t dragged this off-topic by not focusing on the contraception angle – I think I was just struck by how big and complicated the issue of having a child can be.
 
 
saintmae
15:34 / 09.02.07
I must admit that my position comes from being a woman with a pregnancy phobia, so I have a pretty intense opinion on the matter. Freak-women unite!

That said, I do recognize that this is a complex and often ambiguous issue for most people. I have sympathy and compassion to offer, but little in the way of advice.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
21:39 / 09.02.07
I'd be interested, although it might be a different thread, to understand what you experience as pregnancy phobia, saintmae. I think there is a wide spectrum of female (gender identified) experience associated with child bearing which needs some attention. At the moment, I'm kind of hoping that I haven't derailed ._'s intentions for hir thread in a way that it isn't irretrievable.
 
 
Daemon est Deus Inversus
22:17 / 09.02.07
This is totally, absolutely irrelevant, but I couldn't resist:

"You no playa the game, you no maka the rules."-
Earl Butz, Nixon's Secretary of Agriculture, on the Vatican's policy on contraception.
 
 
Proinsias
23:26 / 09.02.07
Personally, I believe that if anyone involved wants an abortion, that's what should happen

This makes me feel rather uncomfortable. If this was the case I imagine many people who would otherwise be competent* single parents might be left feeling rather shitty. I understand there are financial and, possibly, other obligations involved for the other party but I think this has to be held up against the fact that this is also someone else's potential child.

In cases where you both discuss your thoughts beforehand it should be taken into account that these thoughts could change radically when the pregnancy is announced. I can't imagine a situation in which a relationship where pregnancy has been announced unexpectedly, for the first time in both cases, where both parties do not considerably revise their views.


*I'm convinced this is not the right word but It'll have to do for now
 
 
HCE
21:04 / 10.02.07
Personally, I believe that if anyone involved wants an abortion, that's what should happen.

I don't understand -- you're saying that one person should be able to coerce the other into having an unwanted abortion?
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:47 / 10.02.07
This doesn't add to the discussion, but I want to say that I'm not particularly happy with DEDI's mocking Italian speech pattern, even if it is a quote (in which a fake Italian accent was assumed).
 
 
saintmae
01:23 / 11.02.07
Ok, so it's a tough choice: if you have two partners with opposing views and neither will change for the sake of the other, one person is going to be coerced either way. If one wants abortion and the other wants a baby, one person is going to be forced into a choice since there's no way to do the whole thing halfway.

I'm saying that I would rather someone was coerced into an unwanted abortion than that someone was coerced into an unwanted child because I see the latter as having worse potential consequences.

If someone is forced into an unwanted abortion, they may feel bad. If someone is forced into an unwanted child, they will have a financial and legal obligation for the rest of their lives, and there's a third person brought into a world where one of their parents doesn't want them around, which makes for a pretty tough childhood at best.

Ideally, no one would be forced into anything and one person would be willing to change their mind for the sake of the other in cases of differing opinions, but when two people cannot come to a mutual agreement, I am in favor of the default being abortion.

I hope that clarifies. I'm not suggesting people should be forced into aborting under any other circumstances than differing opinions that cannot be resolved through conversation or mediation.
 
 
sorenson
05:35 / 11.02.07
I dunno saintmae. I think you are falling into a pretty huge assumption that children 'should be brought up with the love of a mother and a father' - an assumption that is used as a big stick by right wing christian groups to beat up queer couples and single people who want to raise children. I happen to believe that as long as children have one person in their life who is committed to their care, who loves them and feeds them and is there for them, then they usually do pretty well.

I also am a bit dismayed at your flippant statement that someone who is forced to have an abortion will simply 'feel sad'. I guess that as someone who doesn't want to have children, you haven't considered the depths of grief and depression that can accompany the loss of a pregnancy. If, for example, this was an older woman who was running out of chances to have a child, I should think that the impact of being forced to have an abortion against her will would be massive.

Finally, your suggestion that a woman should be forced into an abortion if her partner doesn't want the baby is just as abhorrent to me as the suggestion that a woman should be forced into keeping a baby she doesn't want.

I guess the rules are different for men and women in these situations, in that pregnancy is something that uniquely affects a woman's body, and so I really do think that she has the ultimate say over whether she carries the pregnancy or not.

At the same time, I also think that if a woman chooses to keep a pregnancy against the wishes of the fellow involved, then she should accept the consequences of that, and think carefully about whether she has the resources (financial and emotional) to raise a child alone.
 
 
sleazenation
08:02 / 11.02.07
At the same time, I also think that if a woman chooses to keep a pregnancy against the wishes of the fellow involved, then she should accept the consequences of that, and think carefully about whether she has the resources (financial and emotional) to raise a child alone.

This there some kind of equivilent to the Child Support Agency (CSA) in the US? For the uninitiated, the CSA is the UK Government department set up to "ensure parents who live apart from their children contribute financially to their upkeep"?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:45 / 11.02.07
Saintmae's point, I believe, sleaze, is that men should not be responsible for raising children they do not want, just because they put their penis in a woman's vagina and moved it in and out until semen came out of the end. This is an interesting point of view, as it suggests that one's responsiblity for something is conditional upon how much time your involvement in it takes. With practice, a man's role in the art of parturition can be got down to a couple of minutes (inc. ordering the pizza), whereas a woman wanting to go from beginning to end of the process is going to be spending months there.

To her credit, SaintMae is also aware that the benefit of women being forced to have abortions without their consent - there being fewer children in the world - is balanced by the down side - that it extends the possibilities of sexual violence against women by men into a new and exciting medical arena.
 
 
el d.
13:01 / 11.02.07
saintmae´s statement, in my interpretation, is quite sound. Assuming you have a couple who agreed beforehand how to deal with an unwanted and unexpected abortion, and after the announcement one of the partners changes his or her mind, the consequences are severe for either of them.

Systematically, you have two options:

a) The female partner wants to give birth, the male partner dissents.

b) The male partner wants the female partner to give birth against her consent.

I guess option b) is rarer, and in my opinion at least a bit more offensive than a). In the a) situation, there´s always the option of single parenthood, the problem being that the male partner is mostly forced to support his child. This seems to be sound in a "hit-and-run" situation as sketched by Haus, but if the couple actually agreed on not having an unwanted child - The bloke´s quite helpless.

Perhaps an american-style prenuptial agreement could help, but these legal things tend to be a bit romance-killing. I´m not really into legalities, if someone is, please illuminate that option.
I´m thinking of an explicit statement of intent, with the possibility that the woman could change her mind included, in which case the male partner has the option to shrug off his responsibilities and rights.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:32 / 11.02.07
This seems to be sound in a "hit-and-run" situation as sketched by Haus, but if the couple actually agreed on not having an unwanted child - The bloke´s quite helpless.

Well, the best way to help might be to exercise every possible caution to avoid impregnating a woman who turns out to want to bring the pregnancy to term. There are social mechanisms for this - like conversation - and technical mecahnisms for this - like using contraception. Otherwise, yes, the male partner is often forced to support the child. This is not an arbitrary imposition, however. The male partner played a role which, while less time-consuming, is just as necessary in the creation of the pregnancy as the role of the female partner. Pregnancy is not some sort of game of roulette where one day a woman will spontaneously produce a foetus, and it is just bad luck for the blameless chap she happens to be going out with at the time.
 
 
alas
01:01 / 13.02.07
Quite. And one of the most effective, and in fact most reversible methods of contraception is, in fact, vasectomy. I am sorry, but I simply have little sympathy for these "the evil woman made him be a daddy" arguments. Please.
 
 
saintmae
02:31 / 13.02.07
In the American legal system, a man is legally bound to support his children until they are 18, with the rare exception when the mother makes significantly more money than the father does. I think giving the child up for adoption also waives these rights but also (in most cases) means you will not ever know your child unless the child seeks you out later (with the exception of open adoptions, which are increasingly popular but still not the majority).

In theory, the system of court-mandated and government enforced child support is a social protection and is mostly a Good Thing. I generally support that system.

In some cases, men who had agreements that an unwanted child would be aborted and had sex with that understanding can be forced into supporting a child for 18 years if the woman changes her mind about abortion. I think that sucks, and I'm not really sure how to make it better. It seems unfair that one person's decision counts that much more in a decision that completely changes everyone's life, and yet only one of them has to go through with the pregnancy, so maybe that makes sense.

My controversial and somewhat inflammatory position on the matter is really my grasping at straws to find a way that is the most fair and harms the least number of people. In general, I'd prefer to err on the side of fewer children because I think that provides the least harm, but I'm not happy with that solution either.

If we go into the realm of the imaginary, I wish there was some way that the bit could be set to infertile and people would take fertility pills (cheap or free, over the counter) to have babies instead of the other way around. If every child were intentional, that would be a big step in the right direction. Somehow I don't see this happening any time soon, though.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:08 / 13.02.07
I have to say I've got precious little sympathy with the "but she said she'd have and abortion!" line. Yes, a woman might, in good faith, promise her partner that she'd have a termination if she accidentally became pregnant. She might mean it wholeheartedly and sincerely.

But talking speculatively about what you would do if that dreaded blue line appeared is different from being confronted with the actuality. Aborting a fetus is not like pulling out a thorn. Sure, it's only a jumble of cells--but it a jumble of cells that might, left to its own devices, eventually become a baby. The effect of such a situation on a person's body-mind is not easy to predict, even if it's one's own. I'm passionately, intensely pro-choice; I support and affirm any woman's decision to terminate her pregnancy for any reason at all. But I also know that I personally would find it difficult or impossible to abort a viable fetus.

If someone is forced into an unwanted abortion, they may feel bad doesn't seem to cover it, frankly. I really do not think the world would become a better or more just place if men were permitted to drag their pregnant girlfriends kicking and screaming off to the abortion clinic.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:26 / 13.02.07
And, of course, this is a useful thing to know for a prospective sexy sex colleague - for example, if you knew that one's p.s.s.c would be unlikely to have an abortion, or was unsure if they would, then one might choose to avoid kinds of sex which are more likely to lead to pregnancy.

Saintmae: I sympathise totally with the difficulty of wrangling the situation; way back in the day, we had a thread about whether people should be allowed to have children without passing some form of test, which ultimately came down to a utopian vision where people, essentially, did not have unplanned pregnancy. Which, I absolutely agree, would be a far better solution.

Once we get to our current imperfect state, things do get an awful lot trickier. In a perfect world, children would be born with the best possible parenting set-up for them, be that one loving parent, two loving parents, three loving parents or whatever; possibly the issue is that, where that cannot be achieved, the laws of the land try to compensate for that.

So, based on the assumption that a child is best served by having two parents providing support, it responds by aiming to compel the father to provide the support it can mandate - which is financial, rather than emotional, and which also has the secondary aim, presumably, of keeping the father involved on some level with the child. That seems imperfect, but I can see the logic behind it. The other balance there is the financial good of the child - which I think counts more than the length of time the mother spends pregnant. If poverty is a bad thing for a child to suffer, the logic goes, then both parties in the creation of the child have a responsibility to seek to minimise the risk of the child suffering poverty. Put another way, either the father helps to support the child, or I do, through my tax load, if the child is to be supported, and since I didn't even get to have sex with the mother (in most cases), that seems a bit unfair.

You do, of course, get unhappy situations - where one party does indeed either change their mind or simply lie - which could be a man promising to support a woman in the event of pregnancy (I imagine quite a common situation, and certainly one that has historically caused a large amount of distress), a woman saying that she would definitely not bring a pregnancy to term, or whatever. And, this could indeed happen through stunning bad luck after very little sexual contact. At which point you already have a problematic situation, but not, I think, one which would justify medical intervention against the mother's will on the say-so of the father. Again, in a previous thread on Barbelith a (male) member got very excited about the idea of transplanting foetuses into artificial wombs, as he saw this technology as the end of the abortion debate, and it had to be explained that the process of taking the foetus out of the mother would be a far more involved surgical procedure than an early-stage termination, and would be both physically and in all probability emotionally more traumatic. I don't think that, if you want an equal society, you can decide whether people get to choose whether or not to undergo medical procedures based de facto on their gender.
 
 
el d.
09:13 / 13.02.07
Put another way, either the father helps to support the child, or I do, through my tax load, if the child is to be supported, and since I didn't even get to have sex with the mother (in most cases), that seems a bit unfair. Haus

Well, I don´t think the idea of state-supported child-rearing is all that unfair. After all, these will be the taxpayers, voters, people of the future, and should get the best possible support from just about anyone. The main problem of the "loving family" situation is, as you stated above, that this is often simply not the case. I think massive ammounts of tax-money should be spent on making parenthood something which doesn´t require as much personal sacrifice as it does today, by providing communal child-care facilities with well-payed and schooled personnel. A bit utopian, but still doable and viable.

Forcing anyone to give away his or her child is a violent step at any point, but still sometimes this is the best solution for the child. (In situations where the parents provide little but anguish, stress and violence, this is often the only solution.) I agree that the best thing would be to avoid unwanted pregnancies, and perhaps another step in that direction would be to reduce the emotional stress a woman feels after her abortion by firmly banning fundamentalist pro-lifers from harassing them. If women who have had abortions are no longer socially expected to suffer, perhaps it would be easier for them to really consider whether or not the future child is wanted and can be supported.

I think nothing´s worse than parents blaming their children for ruining their lives.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:54 / 13.02.07
I think massive ammounts of tax-money should be spent on making parenthood something which doesn´t require as much personal sacrifice as it does today, by providing communal child-care facilities with well-payed and schooled personnel. A bit utopian, but still doable and viable.

Indeed. However, you are not talking about parenting. You're talking about mothering, because, assuming that the inseminator is not inclined or allowed to force a woman to have surgery against her will to abort the child, I think your model still gives the inseminator the right to disappear and wash his hands completely of the life he has helped to create. This seems to be based on an assumption that there isn't anything two people can do that does not lead to a potential pregnancy, but that if that pregnancy does happen then only one person is responsible for the consequences, because they don't have the option of terminating their involvement with the pregnancy simply by ceasing to return calls. Unless you are proposing that women should be able to abandon children at will, also, and that these foundling children are then maintained by the state - that is, effectively, that you can leave unwanted children at the steps of state orphanages without any consequences. This is fine, but it has some fairly far-reaching consequences.

Forcing anyone to give away his or her child is a violent step at any point, but still sometimes this is the best solution for the child.

I think we've missed a step. What you were talking about was abortion - terminating a pregnancy, not giving away a child. There is no child, at this point - there is just a bundle of cells inside a woman's body, which in the one-yes model the inseminator can choose to force the woman to surrender, by anaesthetising her against her will and performing a medical procedure, also against her will. In fact, since paternity cannot be proven until after birth, any man with a reasonable claim to be the inseminator could presumably demand that she submit to this invasive medical procedure.

Which is where we come up against a problem. I am absolutely happy to curtail the rights of freedom of assembly of zealots outside abortion clinics, on the grounds that their assembly there constitutes harrassment. However, those zealots are seeking to exercise control over women's rights to control what happens to their bodies - which is, in case I am being too subtle here, exactly what you are arguing should be done.
 
 
Quantum
10:12 / 13.02.07
I think massive ammounts of tax-money should be spent on making parenthood something which doesn´t require as much personal sacrifice as it does today

Do you have children? It's just that the personal sacrifice angle seems big for you, wheras the positive aspects of having children are less mentioned. Some people might agree with distributed child rearing and communal parenting, others may not; here's a pediatric study on communal raising of children which suggests that, like couples or singles raising children it's more about the basic trust than financial security.
 
 
Quantum
10:20 / 13.02.07
you can leave unwanted children at the steps of state orphanages without any consequences. This is fine, but it has some fairly far-reaching consequences.

Witness state orphanages in Rumania or China. I'm so far most persuaded by alas, who said (in a nutshell) vasectomy. Free state sponsored vasectomies for all, maybe we could make it compulsory and offer reversal once the chap has made a commitment to support a child.
 
 
el d.
10:35 / 13.02.07
However, those zealots are seeking to exercise control over women's rights to control what happens to their bodies - which is, in case I am being too subtle here, exactly what you are arguing should be done. haus

No. I´m definetly not arguing that anything should be done against the woman´s will, and the statement about the inseminator shrugging off his rights and responsibilities is only part of a hypothetical legally binding agreement between the sexual partners. To be more specific: As in written contract.

What I´ve advocated here is to reduce the amount of social stress the women who have had an abortion get from society.

Forcing anyone to give away his or her child is a violent step at any point, but still sometimes this is the best solution for the child.

You apparently din´t read my following statement that this is only done in cases of extreme social situations in which the parents are clearly unable to rear their child. This is a situation I´d like to avoid.

And I´m definetly not stating that anyone should be able to force a woman into aborting, be it the inseminator or anyone else.

Unless you are proposing that women should be able to abandon children at will, also, and that these foundling children are then maintained by the state - that is, effectively, that you can leave unwanted children at the steps of state orphanages without any consequences.

Actually, I think that the step of giving away a child is emotionally more distressing than having an abortion. But I´m not thinking of repeating the horros of china or rumania, but of actual communal child care, which could be state-sponsored. The orphanages in question do sound more like the typical Dickensian horror houses than modern pedagogic institutions, whereas the link from quantum seems to suggest that the benefits of communal child care surpass the problems.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:41 / 13.02.07
Sorry, PB - I read your last post as from SaintMae, there - my bad. As such, my post above makes no sense whatsoever. Will come back after tea.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:59 / 13.02.07
Well, I don´t think the idea of state-supported child-rearing is all that unfair. After all, these will be the taxpayers, voters, people of the future, and should get the best possible support from just about anyone.

I would certainly be in favour of the state providing every possible encouragement to the happy growth of children to being functional, contented adults. Having said which... in that case, I find it slightly curious that the "just about anyone" excludes the father of the child, who can choose to exempt himself from responsibility - at which point his contribution to his own child's raising becomes the same as that of everyone else - a contribution by general taxation. Next question would then be whether the mother can do likewise. After all, she is, like the father, a collaborator in a two-person biological process leading to the creation of a child - she just happens to do a lot of the heavy lifting during gestation and parturition. So, can either parent opt out of financial responsibility with equal facility? A mother could sign a contract with the father to the effect that once the child was born he was sole parent? Or they could both sign out of responsibility, and the child would become a ward of the state by default (in effect, putting the child up for adoption pre-pregnancy). This would not reflect your original statement that the bloke´s quite helpless, but it would make it more equal.

The main problem of the "loving family" situation is, as you stated above, that this is often simply not the case. I think massive ammounts of tax-money should be spent on making parenthood something which doesn´t require as much personal sacrifice as it does today, by providing communal child-care facilities with well-payed and schooled personnel. A bit utopian, but still doable and viable.

Absolutely - but this doesn't have anything to do with men being able to contract out of responsibility for their child. Better childcare facilities make life easier for single parents and other parent groups alike.

Forcing anyone to give away his or her child is a violent step at any point, but still sometimes this is the best solution for the child. (In situations where the parents provide little but anguish, stress and violence, this is often the only solution.)

Again, I don't really see the connection here. Yes, children are often taken away from homes in which the parent or parents are unable to provide care. This is often a disruptive experience for the child and for the parent or parents. State-provided childcare will potentially make it easier for parent or parents to go to work, have a life outside raising their child (although, of course, there will be a rise in general taxation to offset this), and possibly - possibly - make it less likely that parent or parents will be unable to deal with having the child. However, I don't really see, again, how that ties in to providing binding contracts absolving the father of a child of responsibility for his actions in having pregnancy-risking sex with the mother. Are we talking about separating parturition completely from parenthood? A system like Plato's Republic, where childrearing is collectivised, and so parenthood is a non-state? That would be a way to do it, but is quite dramatic.


I agree that the best thing would be to avoid unwanted pregnancies, and perhaps another step in that direction would be to reduce the emotional stress a woman feels after her abortion by firmly banning fundamentalist pro-lifers from harassing them. If women who have had abortions are no longer socially expected to suffer, perhaps it would be easier for them to really consider whether or not the future child is wanted and can be supported.

I agree that women should not be harrassed on the way into clinics. No worries there. They should have access to the best advice, the best treatment and so on. However, you're still pushing this model where the man is incidental to the process - if a woman becomes pregnant, she needs to think seriously about whether the child is wanted, and and can be supported, and if not terminate the pregancy, while the other party is ... off , somewhere.

I think nothing´s worse than parents blaming their children for ruining their lives.

Best avoided, certainly, but again not really relevant, unless you mean that giving men the power to disclaim all connection to a pregancy they helped to create will make them less likely to tell children that they ruined their lives. Which is certainly true, because he will have been allowed to avoid any obligation to his child, with commensurate blame-risk. As I said:

This is not an arbitrary imposition, however. The male partner played a role which, while less time-consuming, is just as necessary in the creation of the pregnancy as the role of the female partner. Pregnancy is not some sort of game of roulette where one day a woman will spontaneously produce a foetus, and it is just bad luck for the blameless chap she happens to be going out with at the time.

So, how about this. Children are a big thing. Pregnancy is a big thing. So, upon entering a relationship, a man and woman discuss what happens if a pregnancy occurs. If the woman states categorically that she would not bring such a pregnancy to term, and signs to that effect, then the man is not financially liable for any child, in exchange of course for never being acknowledged as the father and not being allowed to remain in a relationship with the mother as if the father. If the man states categorically that he would not want a pregnancy to occur, he gets a vasectomy. If a pregnancy does ensue, he becomes fully responsible for the raising of the child, financially and personally, if the woman chooses to carry it to term. That way we can punish either gender by inflicting sole care of the child on the person who claimed in the first place not to want the child. If neither claims to want the child, then vasectomy to start, and then if the pregnancy is not terminated they are both responsible for any offspring.

Alternatively, if you don't trust your partner not to respect your pre-agreed decision on this without a legally binding contract, why not break up with her? Or use contraception, or even types of sex which do not risk impregnation. That might be easier, on the whole.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
13:04 / 13.02.07
If the man states categorically that he would not want a pregnancy to occur, he gets a vasectomy. If a pregnancy does ensue, he becomes fully responsible for the raising of the child, financially and personally, if the woman chooses to carry it to term. That way we can punish either gender by inflicting sole care of the child on the person who claimed in the first place not to want the child.

Are you being serious or sarcastic here? Because what you're essentially suggesting is not only "punishing" the "irresponsible" would-rather-not-be-parent, but punishing, and incredibly inhumanly punishing, the child. The idea of a child being solely brought up by the parent who did not want that child to exist fills me with horror. That's a recipe for every imaginable kind of child abuse, neglect, abandonment, and possibly child murder - and, even if that child isn't abused, abandoned or killed, can you imagine how it would feel to grow up knowing that your existence is unwanted, resented and the ruin of your parent's life?

Also, getting a vasectomy just isn't that easy. In the UK, IIRC, it's considered "medically unethical" to sterilise anyone who hasn't already had children, and even private doctors generally won't sterilise anyone under 30 and without children. As a libertarian who believes in the total sovereignty of every individual over hir own body, i think that shouldn't be the case, but in the present day it is. And while i'd support some of the radical social changes proposed in this thread, particularly the distributed parenting idea (tho i think i'd want it to be more like Marge Piercy's Woman On The Edge Of Time than Plato's Republic), i think this thread is more about ethical-and-practical courses of action in present-day reality than about utopias.

Also, as has been pointed out, vasectomy is reversible, and can sometimes "naturally" reverse itself. The only way to totally avoid the possibility of conception is either to have some more radical form of surgery (either hysterectomy, which is a much, much more invasive and potentially dangerous procedure, and puts all the responsibility on the woman, or full castration, which i seriously doubt very many men would agree to), or to have a relationship solely consiating of non-penetrative forms of sex. Which latter option would actually be perfectly tolerable to me, my sexuality being somewhat unusual, but almost certainly wouldn't for a majority of straight men (and, probably, some straight women).
 
 
Quantum
13:08 / 13.02.07
I think that the step of giving away a child is emotionally more distressing than having an abortion.

Have you ever done either? What are you basing that thought on? I would also add that the drawbacks of communal childraising are many and varied, and that many many people (most?) would prefer to raise their own child thank you very much.
Your position on termination does seem to be a little... slanted. Like the Fathers for Justice folk a little, protecting the poor guy from the entrapping girl seems to be a priority.
Vasectomy. That way nobody can force you into looking after a child without consent. Where's the problem?
 
 
Quantum
13:13 / 13.02.07
Are you being serious or sarcastic here?

I think that was sarcasm- mentally insert % at your leisure.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:56 / 13.02.07
Who, me, follow a cock-eyed idea to its logical conclusion? I can't imagine you would ever accuse me of doing such a thing without believing it completely from snout to tail. I am shocked. Truly shocked.

The only way to totally avoid the possibility of conception is either to have some more radical form of surgery (either hysterectomy, which is a much, much more invasive and potentially dangerous procedure, and puts all the responsibility on the woman, or full castration, which i seriously doubt very many men would agree to), or to have a relationship solely consiating of non-penetrative forms of sex. Which latter option would actually be perfectly tolerable to me, my sexuality being somewhat unusual, but almost certainly wouldn't for a majority of straight men (and, probably, some straight women).

You know, there are penetrative forms practised by heterosexuals that don't carry a risk of pregnancy.

However, it is no doubt true that if heterosexuals decide that they can't live without a form that does, then it follows that they have to take responsibility for the consequences of that decision. Because it is a decision - nobody is forcing you to take it, but once you do take it, you are managing risk, which risk is incurred as a result of your free choice and action.
 
 
el d.
19:05 / 13.02.07
Summarising haus:

Anyone having sex using contraception should be prepared to potentially have a child and care for it, regardless of his or her life, financial or social situation and that´s that then. If you don´t want to have children, have fun orally or atergo, stay celibate or decide never to have children (get sterilised).

Correct me if I got something wrong there, but I guess that´s what you said, isn´t it?

As to quantum: A child is definetly a human being. I dont consider a jumble of fertilised cells that will maybe someday be one to have the same status. So that´s why my view is "slanted" in that respect, yes.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:40 / 13.02.07
Anyone having sex using contraception should be prepared to potentially have a child and care for it, regardless of his or her life, financial or social situation and that´s that then.

I don't think I said care, did I? I said take responsibility for. So, no. That's not what I said. In essence, what I said is what I have written so far in this thread.

How that responsibility is manifested is an interesting question. For example, you can take responsibility by talking to the person you are going to have sex with. You can take responsibility by using contraception. YOu can take responsibility by having non-penetrative sex, if you don't have enough faith in your ability to us contraception or have conversation. And so on. However, taking responsibility, from my POV, does not mean constructing a legal contract where you get to suddenly avoid all responsibility if you happen to impregnate your partner.

So, let's go back to this idea of the contract. On paper (BOOM BOOM) this sounds pretty sensible - you wasnt to be absolutely sure that your partner will not carry a pregnancy to term and expect your support, and so you get her to sign a piece of paper waiving her right to identify you as the parent, for purposes of e.g. financial support. Presumably the payback is that if she carries the pregnancy to term you are not allowed to see the child or pursue a relationship in which you might occupy any paternal role with the child, but that's details.

On t'other hand, right at this moment most societies do not have the free government childcare that exists in the utopian scenario above. So, by doing this you are disadvantaging the mother and the child. One might argue that that is the point of the contract - to intimidate the woman into terminating the pregnancy whatever her actual desires with the perfectly reasonable fear of penury, she and her child being at a sudden financial disadvantage. Or the load is taken up by general taxation, in which case... well. In which case, really, it seems again as if you are divorcing the action of putting a penis in a vagina an d moving it in and out until it ejaculates from conception, which I think is a potential coherence problem.

Don't get me wrong. I am a sexually active man some of whose sexual practices involve activities that might lead to pregnancy. I would _love_ to have a get out of jail free card in case by some horrific mischance I happened to get someone pregnant. However, what I would like to happen is not necessarily what is responsible, as anyone who has seen my plans for tubular storage of meerkats will testify.
 
  

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