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Cormac McCarthy

 
  

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matthew.
19:54 / 21.05.07
I think he's romanticizing the myths as well as making them ridiculous in the face of such horror, misanthropy and nihilism. We're supposed to love and cherish the main character of All The Pretty Horses, because he's adhering to a strict internal moral compass, and has quandaries if he kills in self-defense. But on the other hand, it's kind of naive and foolish to have such a code in the face of the "cowboy"'s inevitable end. Deconstructing the myth and elevating it at the same time.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:19 / 21.05.07
But on the other hand, it's kind of naive and foolish to have such a code in the face of the "cowboy"'s inevitable end.

Yeah, it's kind of like reading the Icelandic Sagas in that way (except they DID have strong female characters!). Something like Njal's Saga, where it's almost "legalistic" in its approach to following the moral code, and where EVERYONE DIES is the only possible outcome, and you can see that right from the very beginning, but nobody, throughout the generations, can ever back down from it.
 
 
matthew.
01:54 / 25.05.07
I had this incredible discussion with my father about Cormac McCarthy that really crystallizes what the fuck I'm trying to say about him. McCarthy's handling of myth is like a masochist. In getting down and dirty with the myth, he elevates it. With masochists, is the pleasure derived from the physical pain, or is it from the sensation of being at the very bottom? I kind of like to imagine that McCarthy's handling of myths is like Leopold Bloom in Ulysses. Bloom likes to get dirty and think drrty thoughts and eat things that taste like urine. He does it for two reasons: he likes the filth and he likes the [spiritual] elevation and freedom that it brings with the filth. In getting dirty (with the myth), McCarthy is getting high. He exults it and shows it for what it is. He uses this strange biblical prose with bizarre syntax (polysynetical? hmmm what is it? oh, polysyndetonic; thanks Wikipedia) and it gives the myth and character this ethereal miasma, not to mention his blind seer with prophetic mutterings (eg. [from Buffy] You think you know what you are? You've not yet begun). And at the same time, while he elevates his myth with biblical prose, he pulls the curtain aside and shows us what's really going on.

I'm a third of the way through The Crossing and it's really kind of par for the course. I can't wait to read Cities of the Plain and see where he takes John Grady Cole and Billy Parham. Where can they go?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:46 / 25.05.07
MILD SPOILER







well, nowhere good, obviously.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:47 / 25.05.07
Have you read the wolf part yet? That's my favourite McCarthy thing ever.
 
 
alas
18:36 / 25.05.07
I am continuing to read Blood Meridian. Still have yet to be convinced that 1) having the narrator regularly use the word "nigger," e.g., and 2) having a 14 yo white boy who can't speak Spanish and hasn't eaten or drunk anything for two days but can waltz in and kick the shit out of an experienced Mexican barman surrounded by a barful of heavily armed Mexicans, aren't ultimately reifying the myths he's supposedly all about tearing down, but I'm still reading, slowly. We're still dying in the Mexican desert. I'll shut up until I've actually finished, promise.

(Thread titles like this one, however, do tend to provoke a whole lot of resistance in me, particularly post the NY Times top 100 and the admissions by at least two of the male judges in that contest that they deliberately voted in order to try to deny it to one of the few books by women in the list, and the most important by far, in my opinion--and the winner despite their efforts--Toni Morrison's Beloved.)
 
 
matthew.
01:08 / 26.05.07
I think the thread-starter wrote the thread summary in defiance of the list.
 
 
ouro
02:32 / 26.05.07
alas, just wondering, are you English?

Also, check out these short previews for the Coen Bros. adaptation of No Country For Old Men:

http://www.commeaucinema.com/bandes-annonces=76586.html

I'm pretty excited for this one. Seems to perfectly represent the book, with just that usual smidge of Coen humor. Hopefully, Ridley Scott knows how to handle Blood Meridian...
 
 
matthew.
13:41 / 26.05.07
I'm glad that the Coens have remembered that the book is sort of funny at times, the violence moderately cartoonish. It's good to keep that in mind.
 
 
matthew.
15:29 / 23.06.07
Apparently this is the Cormac McCarthy interview [Warning: .pdf file!] It's from the New York Times just after the publication of All The Pretty Horses.

I'm still really into McCarthy right now (finishing off The Crossing, starting Cities of the Plain) and I was wondering if anybody had any other interviews or anything else that they could share.

After a Google search, I found this rather negative appraisal of his body of work in light of No Country For Old Men from the New Yorker.

Also, in terms of The Crossing, I must admit difficulty in understanding this text. Is this a coming of age story? Is this about loss of innocence? I need a little direction and help. What do you think [Stoatie]?
 
 
matthew.
11:45 / 25.06.07
I finished the Crossing last night and now that it's over, I think I have a little bit more understanding. But the way I'm interpreting Billy is in relation to John Grady. Billy is much less stoic, more in tune with emotions than John Grady. Billy can perceive a bigger picture, even at his lowest point, when he tries to join the army. John Grady is immersed within himself, he sees only what he needs to see, hence his aversion to religion and God and other intangibles. Billy crosses over into the non-hell of Mexico and manages to deal with a world of mysticism and infinite intangibles. Everybody he meets in Mexico is either a "John Grady" or a blind prophet.

I'm definitely going to write more about this. This is the hardest McCarthy book I've read so far. It's less obsessed with plot (like No Country) and more interested in painting a portrait of world that we can understand, but never predict.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
10:03 / 30.06.07
I just spent an hour writting a well thought out post about Cormac McCarthy, then fucked it up. Bottom Line;

-Loved the Road, loved the relationship between father/son. Didn't really care about the mother, felt she was a bit of a coward (but this was unfair as it was the end of the world), but was always gonna come off as shite when compared to the best father figure in literature after maybe Atticus Fitch.

-McCarthy is a author who appeals to men, like Hemingway. Hemingway is probably a massive influence of McCarthy, his prose seems similar, not the same. I like Hemingway.

-What's the problem with men writting for men. Don't women write for women?

It wasn't so rushed, it was better worded, but I cannae bother to do it all again, and it wouldn't be as good, and I'd probably never post it. All of which would be stupid considering I just decided to post in this thread so matt could post again.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:37 / 01.07.07
Billy is much less stoic, more in tune with emotions than John Grady.

I think so. For me, The Crossing pivots around the scene with the dying wolf. It's the best insight we get into Billy, and his (and indeed everything's) place in the world. It's also the death of innocence- there's something wonderfully naive about this boy who saves the wolf from the trap and thinks it'll all be okay if he can return her to the mountains, something that almost seems to die with her.

Sorry, bit confusled at the moment as I'm halfway through Suttree (well, I've taken a bit of a break from it to read a biography of Crass)- should probably finish that before I can go through and find relevant bits from The Crossing.

The Crossing is certainly more mythic in a "signs and wonders" sense- the whole last portion of the book is filled with omens and portents which Grady would probably have just shrugged at and lit another cigarette.
 
 
alas
11:55 / 01.07.07
alas, just wondering, are you English?

Nope. Red-blooded American. I like apple pie, own a flag (which I don't actually fly, natch), AND I VOTE! (heh).

What's the problem with men writting for men. Don't women write for women?

The writing of women that is perceived as being written for women is often deprecated with terms like "chick lit," "sentimental," "fluffy," "trivial," "light."

The writing of men for men is often deprecated with terms like "greatest living American novelist."
 
 
matthew.
13:15 / 01.07.07
It's not just deprecated, it's simply passed aside in favour of more "serious" minded stuff. I don't think there exists any female version of Cormac McCarthy. Chick lit also tends to be confused with "beach reading" or "summer reading". It's also predominantly considered "easy" and "superficial" while male literature is "dense" with themes and symbols and it's "complex" and "literary". Bollocks, of course. But that's the male-dominated world of high literature. I think we've had this discussion before on the lith, but I remember posting that publishers sell more books to women but it's the male books that tend to win the fancy awards.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
14:49 / 01.07.07
The writing of women that is perceived as being written for women is often deprecated with terms like "chick lit," "sentimental," "fluffy," "trivial," "light."

The writing of men for men is often deprecated with terms like "greatest living American novelist."


A bit simplistic alas, and not true either. The likes of Cormac McCarthy are the only type of "men for men" books, they're the literary example. I'm pretty sue the likes of Clive Cussler and Andy McNabb are considered "boys own adventures", and no-one (in their right mind) is proclaiming either of them as the "greatest living American (or other wise) novelist."
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
14:51 / 01.07.07
ANd that post was riddled with errors - read "The likes of Cormac McCarthy arn't the only type of "men for men" books, they're the literary example." and "I'm pretty sure the likes of Clive Cussler and Andy McNabb are considered "boys own adventures", and no-one (in their right mind) is proclaiming either of them as the "greatest living American (or other wise) novelist."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:07 / 01.07.07
Mathelete just called alas' analysis simplistic. That's... beautiful.

There's a broader discussion about chick-lit, which I think we have already had - I know that since my sister wrote a novel, she has already had to deal with the phrase to eyeball-melting levels. However. Let's take a look at this model. In the blue corner, we have Tom Clancy, say - a man writing for men, essentially. Chick-lit, if we can try to peg the meaning down from "all fiction written by women", can be identified arguably as women writing for women. Of course, if most books are bought and read by women, this should be considered simply normal rather than niche, but never mind.

Now, Cormac McCarthy operates on a different level, critically speaking, from Tom Clancy. This level might be given labels like "greatest living American novelist", although you could probably find people who would try to fit the same laurel around Tom Clancy's manly forehead. Where, alas is asking, is the comparable niche for women writing fiction? Why do books by women get pulled into the "chick-lit" ghetto, when McCarthy does not get identified as writing "Boy's Own adveture stories"?
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
16:22 / 01.07.07
Mathelete just called alas' analysis simplistic. That's... beautiful.

I wouldn't call that analysis, it was a statement. I'm sure if alas analysed something, it wouldn't be simplistic, but well thought out.

Chick-lit, if we can try to peg the meaning down from "all fiction written by women" (for women)

No, lets not try and peg down the meaning of "all fiction written by women" as chick lit, lets peg it down as any fictional book written by a woman with a majoritivley female audience in mind.

Where, alas is asking, is the comparable niche for women writing fiction?

So only male author's can be placed in the "Greatest (insert geographical location/time period/ideology) author alive/dead" bit. I don't agree with this. Someone could love The Fountain Head and proclaim Ayn Rand as the greatest American author of all time (even though she was Russian born, I think she can count as she lived in America at the time of her being a writer). It would be personl opinion, like clagodot proclaiming McCarthy as such, or alas saying that Beloved is "the most important" book on a NY Times top 100.

Why do books by women get pulled into the "chick-lit" ghetto

Not all books written by women struggle to avoid the "chick-lit ghetto", it isn't as general as you make out. I can't recall reading any critics refering to, say, the Penelopiad as "chick-lit", but maybe there was.

when McCarthy does not get identified as writing "Boy's Own adveture stories"?

He probably does. Having only read The Road and the first couple of chapters of Blood Meridian, I'm can't talk for his entire body of work, but I'm also pretty sure that if anyone thought the Road was a boy's own adventure, some very hard questions would need to be asked about that person's childhood dreams of running from cannibals, and how damaged they were by them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:03 / 02.07.07
It would be personl opinion, like clagodot proclaiming McCarthy as such, or alas saying that Beloved is "the most important" book on a NY Times top 100.

Well, no. Beloved either is or is not the most important book on a New York Times top 100, isn't it? Therefore, if alas says that Beloved was so chosen, she is making a statement of fact, which may or may not be correct. As it is, it is, if one reads the article and discovers that it topped the vote to decide ""the single best work of American fiction published in the last 25 years".

The list they come up with is interesting. Toni Morrison does indeed win, but of the runners-up, only one book, as far as I can see, Housekeeping by Marilynne Robinson, is written by a woman. Lots of DeLillo, lots of Roth, and a fair bit of McCarthy. Because what alas is talking about, and I think what we are generally understood to be talking about, is the establishment opinion rather than purely personal opinion. So, the hypothetical Ayn Rand fan is not really relevant here.

So, with that in mind, as I understand it,
alas is asking where the comparable niche is for women writing fiction. One could certainly consider the impact of Toni Morrison's Beloved in one's consideration thereof. One might also ponder whether Margaret Atwood would have made the almost entirely male runners-up list if she had been American. Ayn Rand, if considered American, clearly did not.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
07:41 / 02.07.07
Therefore, if alas says that Beloved was so chosen, she is making a statement of fact, which may or may not be correct.

Yes, I was highlighting her phrase "and the most important by far", which suggests that while the NY Times has selected it their number one, so has alas. I personally haven't read Beloved, so I can't compare it to my favourite book of the last twenty five years, Kavelier and Clay.

In terms of the establishment, being a child of it I'm not really interested in rallying against it. If the literary establishment is overthrown, and a new one set up where we don't have to worry about potential gender biases, it won't change my enjoyment of a book.

alas is asking where the comparable niche is for women writing fiction

I'm not sure I understand the question. Do no female authors ever get mentioned as the greatest american author of all time?

Back onto McCarthy; Blood Meridian is coming on at a fair old pace. Having never read any western novels, the only western literature and films I can remember be bothered about being Open Range and Deadwood, I was unsure of what to expect, and at the moment it's coming off a bit Deadwood in it's tone and personality. Which is good.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:59 / 02.07.07
In terms of the establishment, being a child of it I'm not really interested in rallying against it. If the literary establishment is overthrown, and a new one set up where we don't have to worry about potential gender biases, it won't change my enjoyment of a book.


I'm not sure who the "we" there is, since you have just stated that you do not feel the need to worry about potential gender biases. However, you are already having your enjoyment of books, plural, affected, since it means that books by women that you might enjoy, assuming that you are not solely interested in men writing for men, are not likely to penetrate your consciousness.

Back on the niche. Well, there's an interesting issue here, which again is probably fodder for a different thread. I certainly seem to see Beloved named as the most important or best novel by a living American far more often than I see Toni Morrison named as the most important or greatest living American novelist. I'm still a little confused at the reasons for this. On the plus side, Morrison has certainly avoided being termed "chick-lit", although of course she had another niche pretty well carved out for her.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
10:13 / 02.07.07
However, you are already having your enjoyment of books, plural, affected, since it means that books by women that you might enjoy, assuming that you are not solely interested in men writing for men, are not likely to penetrate your consciousness.

True story, I haven't chosen to read anything written by a women since I was about 11, when I read the Adrian Mole books. Actually, that's not true, I didn't have to read Alias Grace for the bookclub, but I did. But apart from that, and Handmaiden's Tale, I haven't read anything written by a women that wasn't on a reading list or given to me by a friend. I hadn't really thought about that, but that is a bit odd, isn't it?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:56 / 02.07.07
Odd in what sense? Surprising? No.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
13:16 / 02.07.07
Any reason why you've decided to kick up in this thread Flyboy? Do you have anything other then a shot at me to add? My guess; no.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:49 / 02.07.07
I'm not sure that was a pop. Outside a very small group - in fact, all three of the books by women you have mentioned so far - Alias Grace, The Handmaid's Tale and The Penelopiad - are in fact books by woman - your entire experience of free-choice novels by women since the age of 12 has been, it seems, Margaret Atwood. Again, it's a bigger question than might be considered in a thread about Cormac McCarthy, but that is, when you think about it, pretty remarkable, and one can only wonder how it could have happened.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
13:57 / 02.07.07
Well, it clearly was a pop by Flyboy. I'll answer you Haus, and then maybe the thread can go back to talking about McCarthy; I have read books by other women since the age of 12, but these were books chosen for me to read, be it by girlfriends, teachers, friends, santa. I was agreeing with a point you made about how I was being short changed by a male dominated critical landscape, and highlighting my agreement with personal anacdotal evidence. By pointing out this anomoly to mne, you've allowed me to have a look at my personal choices of books which I choose to read, and now I can look at diversifying the books I read, and change my literary mindset. So as soon as I've finshed Blood Meridian, then the new Eggers and Chabon books, I can maybe go and pick up something I may not have read normally. And by the looks of things, it will be Beloved.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:48 / 02.07.07
I have read books by other women since the age of 12, but these were books chosen for me to read, be it by girlfriends, teachers, friends, santa.

Indeed. Hence "free-choice". And I doubt that you are exceptional, although you may be at the further end of the standard deviance. So, I imagine we can agree that, whatever the merits or otherwise of men writing for men, there may well be problems with men writing for men in a critical environment that normalises this, even though apparently more novels are read by women than by men, because men tend to dominate the upper echelons of literary publishing. Within this environment, a statement like "Cormac McCarthy is the greatest living American novelist" enters the world with a huge advantage, because it is normalised. There's actually an interesting spin-off there about what is and is not "literary", or more precisely "literarised", and how Harold Bloom's four great American writers seem to embrace some convenient cultural types - New York Jewish intellectual, Tennessee man's man, founding-father WASP... but we are again wandering into the realms of another thread, possilby one titled "Who died and made God Harold Bloom?"
 
 
alas
14:55 / 02.07.07
I haven't read anything written by a women that wasn't on a reading list or given to me by a friend. I hadn't really thought about that, but that is a bit odd, isn't it?

Mathlete, my sense is that you are becoming aware of the ways your desires, along with your opinions and beliefs, have been shaped by the social structure of which you are apart. This can be disconcerting, because we--i.e. especially us white middle class people, but all people who are affected by the intensely media-saturated, commercial environment in which we live--are trained to believe that we just "happen to like" things like Deadwood and Blood Meridian and even Hemingway and our desires for such books are personal quirks, choices, personality types, and have nothing to do with heteronormativity, sexism, class-based "tastes" and biases, and racism, and the commercial interests that play on and often reinforce the status quo in ways both overt and subtle.

And sometimes, more complex works like McCarthy's can seem to be trying to have it both ways--seem to be taking on the status quo, but actually are subtly reinforcing white male dominance. That's what I was trying to determine by reading blood meridian, but I kept finding myself wanting to break a window with it.

And let me make it clear: We are all, myself and flyboy and haus included, affected by the sexism, racism, heteronormativity, and class norms of our social environment. None of us is claiming to be outside the machine in some way. But we believe that male dominance and racism, etc., are real, that they hurt real people every day, and that they affect things like who is considered to be a "great" novelist; what literary themes "matter," and what books we are likely to "happen" to read, and what books we are likely to "happen" to like. In my life, that awareness has an ethical dimension.
 
 
matthew.
15:11 / 02.07.07
Parallel to this discussion on females, I am currently reading Cities of the Plain. Last night I just finished the first passage in which John Grady Cole and Magdalena, the too-young prostitute have sex. I took note of the descriptions and the thoughts that we're privy to in John Grady's head.

The whores, with their painted faces and odd dresses seem alien to him. They seem other-worldly and not part of what he understands.

Just prior to this scene, John Grady discusses breaking and training horses, how if one really knows a horse, he can train it by looking at it. Even more so than the Pretty Horses, John Grady is dispensing with everything that he can't wrap his head around. No time for omens or portents. I guess the Mexican prostitute that holds sway in his mind must mean something. She's earthy and real, with long black hair. Interesting.

So far, Magdalena is pretty much the only female character that has some real properties, unlike Alejandra from Pretty Horses, who is ethereal. Still however, an extension of the male characters.

alas, you almost make me feel guilty for liking McCarthy so much, but I feel better because I never envy them, at least.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
15:22 / 02.07.07
I think I understand; that while I might say something like "Can't we just enjoy literature for literature's sake", ignoring critics and the like and enjoying works of art that speak to us, I'm not really saying that because I've been taught to enjoyto the normal, so am more likely to enjoy work that, no matter what politics it preaches, conforms to this norm, like Cormac McCarthy? I'm not sure what the next step would be.
 
 
matthew.
15:25 / 02.07.07
I believe the first step is acknowledging the problems. At least recognizing what shapes us is better than denying them.

alas and Haus almost make it seem like we have no free will in our choices....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:31 / 02.07.07
I don't think I said that. However, one does not simply stop being in France, if one is in France, by not noticing that one is in France, nor indeed by declaring confidently that one has dealt with being in France and is no longer in France.
 
 
matthew.
15:36 / 02.07.07
That's why I said it was the first step.
 
 
alas
17:11 / 02.07.07
alas and Haus almost make it seem like we have no free will in our choices....

I don't think we have nearly as much free will as we've been trained to believe, and, as this (restricted) New York Times article suggests, many scientists suspect this is true as well.

Here's a longish couple of snippets since that link prolly won't work for you:

A bevy of experiments in recent years suggest that the conscious mind is like a monkey riding a tiger of subconscious decisions and actions in progress, frantically making up stories about being in control.

As a result, physicists, neuroscientists and computer scientists have joined the heirs of Plato and Aristotle in arguing about what free will is, whether we have it, and if not, why we ever thought we did in the first place. . . .

Mark Hallett, a researcher with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, said, ''Free will does exist, but it's a perception, not a power or a driving force. People experience free will. They have the sense they are free.

''The more you scrutinize it, the more you realize you don't have it,'' he said....


and

In the 1970s, Benjamin Libet, a physiologist at the University of California, San Francisco, wired up the brains of volunteers to an electroencephalogram and told the volunteers to make random motions, like pressing a button or flicking a finger, while he noted the time on a clock.

Dr. Libet found that brain signals associated with these actions occurred half a second before the subject was conscious of deciding to make them.

The order of brain activities seemed to be perception of motion, and then decision, rather than the other way around.

In short, the conscious brain was only playing catch-up to what the unconscious brain was already doing. The decision to act was an illusion, the monkey making up a story about what the tiger had already done.

Dr. Libet's results have been reproduced again and again over the years, along with other experiments that suggest that people can be easily fooled when it comes to assuming ownership of their actions. . . .

But most of the action is going on beneath the surface. Indeed, the conscious mind is often a drag on many activities. Too much thinking can give a golfer the yips. Drivers perform better on automatic pilot. Fiction writers report writing in a kind of trance in which they simply take dictation from the voices and characters in their head, a grace that is, alas, rarely if ever granted nonfiction writers.


and, in conclusion,

So what about Hitler?

The death of free will, or its exposure as a convenient illusion, some worry, could wreak havoc on our sense of moral and legal responsibility. According to those who believe that free will and determinism are incompatible, Dr. Silberstein said in an e-mail message, it would mean that ''people are no more responsible for their actions than asteroids or planets.'' Anything would go.

Dr. Wegner of Harvard said: ''We worry that explaining evil condones it. We have to maintain our outrage at Hitler. But wouldn't it be nice to have a theory of evil in advance that could keep him from coming to power?''

He added, ''A system a bit more focused on helping people change rather than paying them back for what they've done might be a good thing.''

Dr. Wegner said he thought that exposing free will as an illusion would have little effect on people's lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.

''It's an illusion, but it's a very persistent illusion; it keeps coming back,'' he said, comparing it to a magician's trick that has been seen again and again. ''Even though you know it's a trick, you get fooled every time. The feelings just don't go away.''

In an essay about free will in 1999, Dr. Libet wound up quoting the writer Isaac Bashevis Singer, who once said in an interview with the Paris Review, ''The greatest gift which humanity has received is free choice. It is true that we are limited in our use of free choice. But the little free choice we have is such a great gift and is potentially worth so much that for this itself, life is worthwhile living.''


Which is pretty much where I fall: of course you and I have some limited choices. But don't exaggerate your freedom, be aware of your limitations, and then Make Your Actions fucking count! And when someone suggests that maybe you're not in as much control over your own decisions as you'd like to believe, pause and think: they're probably right. And if they're saying sexism and racism might be at work behind your actions, don't look at them like they're being ridiculous. Of course you're not going to be fully consciously aware of sexism and racism in your unconscious, shaping your decisions. None of us are aware of our unconscious. But we can become more aware, and we can be more skeptical of ourselves and the stories we tell ourselves about our selves.

I'm suggesting that readers of McCarthy, too, should be skeptical--of him and of themselves.
 
  

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