BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


How do you tell when something's unacceptable on Barbelith? Changing to become a discussion on the future of Barbelith.

 
  

Page: 12(3)45678... 9

 
 
Janean Patience
15:15 / 02.03.07
I'm reading.
 
 
semioticrobotic
15:27 / 02.03.07
I'm reading too. With much interest.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:44 / 02.03.07
Also reading, also without much to add.
 
 
grant
17:00 / 02.03.07
Yes, I've been reading quite closely.

Of course, part of the time I was delirious, but yes, I'm watching this thread.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
17:15 / 02.03.07
I'm reading.
 
 
Papess
17:16 / 02.03.07
Me too. I have been following along.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
18:11 / 02.03.07
I'm here and following the discussion with interest. Option 2 seems like the preferable one, in the circumstances.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
18:38 / 02.03.07
I'm reading but I'm totally unequipped to comment.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:45 / 02.03.07
Reading with interest.
 
 
Tsuga
21:36 / 02.03.07
What? Me? I'm not reading anything. I'm just standing here. How did I get to page 3?

I suppose the stagnation you guys talk about is probably more apparent to those who have been here a long time and not seen changes in the interface, and old posters drop away. I read old threads and wonder where many of those people have gone, alot of them read like very interesting people. But, life does change for everyone over time. I'd hate many of the regular contributors here now to drop off, though I suppose others may take up the slack (as long as new people are able to join at all). Maybe I'm too new to feel jaded and/or bored and/or sick of it all. The only things that frustrate me are the same things that I've resigned myself to about human interactions in general, and specifically in text.
And a few board glitches, yeah.
 
 
illmatic
22:14 / 02.03.07
I'm stil reading, though I haven't had a lot to say since my questions above were answered. Ganesh says he's reading as well.
 
 
The Falcon
22:58 / 02.03.07
I, too, read this thread.
 
 
Princess
22:59 / 02.03.07
Behold my readination.
 
 
Dutch
23:10 / 02.03.07
*show of hands, typing*

And I agree with much of what Tsuga said, instead that I don't feel the board has any really annoying glitches as far as I'm concerned.
 
 
iamus
00:01 / 03.03.07
I'm also following this intently.
 
 
petunia
11:30 / 03.03.07
Reading.

Want change and happy happy new things with lots of people.

Not sure how to express this.

Thanks.
x
 
 
Lama glama
16:43 / 03.03.07
I've read the thread.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:37 / 03.03.07
To restate what it seems many of us feel is the main problem with Barbelith at the moment....the functioning of the board at present is far too heavily reliant on Tom, who is largely absent, when it comes to both admittance and banning. This has several consequences but the main ones are that we have a registration policy that is so cumbersome as to be broken, and a set of posting guidelines that vacillate between being vague and unenforced. Simply put, the lack of an ability to ban (or some equivalent) chokes off the influx of new members and makes it much harder to have the sort of board many of us want. One could go further, and talk about the fact that the possibility of a truly participatory community doesn't even seem to be on the horizon, but I don't think that that is what is really getting people annoyed.

On top of that, my opinion is that Tom doesn't really want to relinquish control of the board at all, and that talk of his stress and overwork just serves to distract from this. I realise that sounds pretty insensitive, given how much we owe Tom, but I think that anyone who has been following the discussion over the past couple of years probably suspects the same thing.

As such, I see two obvious solutions. Tom could, if he wanted, give someone here access to the board administration and code to let them change the board over time and importantly be a presence on the board who can ban people. As I said above, Haus is an obvious choice. There are various questions about how exactly to transfer control, but I don't believe that there can be any serious objection that isn't tantamount to Tom wanting to stay in charge.

Failing that - and my guess is that Tom won't feel comfortable doing what I say - we should start a new board, pretty much from scratch but with hopefully a large chuck of the current membership.

I realise that Haus more or less said all this above, but I think we should do more than register our presence here. Who thinks we need to move? Who would come with us to move and is it really worth the effort? Who would be willing to help with the techy and setting up work?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
18:29 / 03.03.07
I'm following the thread. I'm more of a lurker than a poster, but I do greatly value Barbelith. While I don't have any great attachment to the techincal nuts and bolts of the board or to the name, I would want to see the community continue in some form. Therefore whatever the more frequent posters think is the best option to to achieve that gets my support.
 
 
angel
19:56 / 03.03.07
I'm watching and waiting with interest!
 
 
Princess
22:55 / 03.03.07
I like the board as is, but if it changed I would move wherever the talking moved too. I'm at the whim of group opinion on this.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
02:48 / 04.03.07
Yep, watcing with interest. Will try and contribute at some point.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
05:04 / 04.03.07
I'm following this thread. Definitely interested.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
08:24 / 04.03.07
Yep, watcing with interest. Will try and contribute at some point.

Ditto for me...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:40 / 04.03.07
Watching with little hope of resolution.
 
 
The Strobe
10:16 / 04.03.07
I'm reading this, obviously. I might write something in a bit about ways around problems that are more practical, but I'm going to talk with Tom a bit first.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
10:53 / 04.03.07
I'm reading, but I don't think anything's really wrong with Barbelith. We don't have that many banning blowups. I suppose we could go on a little recruiting drive though and get some new blood.
 
 
Spaniel
11:06 / 04.03.07
Jack, the problem is that without the ability to ban we can't realistically go on a recruitment drive ever.

Also, the admittance process is completely fucked, so even if we could ban, recruitment would still be very problematic.

I am all for moving to a new board. It'll be sad to leave the old place - I love the visual aesthetic and the history, and I feel a lot of affection towards Tom - but I'd really like a board we, the members, could own.
 
 
Seth
11:27 / 04.03.07
I'm reading. Personally I'm loving Barbelith at the moment. I'm having interesting discussions with people about things I can't have anywhere else, and it's been pretty rewarding.

Yes, it does suck that on the three or four occasions over the last year that I've vouched for one of my mates who wants on the board and has a verifiable internet presence nothing's happened about it. That should be the easiest way to join but he's heard nothing back from any attempt to get him on. He's not an isolated example, there's another friend who I've tried with several times too.

If it was just possible to get intelligent and trusted friends in here on personal recommendation, people who would be highly unlikely to require banning, then I think we'd get the steady trickle of new blood we need. Surely that's just a case of someone compiling a list and sending it to Tom once a week (little and often and it's less hassle).

Yeah, we become the Freemasons like that. But at least we'd have better record collections than the Freemasons.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:32 / 04.03.07
Seth - email barbelith.apply@gmail.com with those email addresses. They should already have gone through.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
12:07 / 04.03.07
If it was just possible to get intelligent and trusted friends in here on personal recommendation, people who would be highly unlikely to require banning, then I think we'd get the steady trickle of new blood we need. Surely that's just a case of someone compiling a list and sending it to Tom once a week (little and often and it's less hassle).
Could we do this? Kind of a Barbelith fast track?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:25 / 04.03.07
We already do. However, as you can see, it is not very fast and at times not a track. Too many human parts. Although, in fact, one would not want to automate this process without having banning protocols in place.
 
 
netbanshee
19:17 / 04.03.07
I'm following the discussion as well... just haven't had time to post on it in the last week or so.

I direct web projects at the place I work so I have the means to contribute my experience in consultation, page design and xhtml/css page templates if there's a need. Also been on the barb for the last 6-7 years so I fit the criteria for a known member (albeit not the most talkative). I'm not a web dev (php/mysql, etc.) like some others I've encountered here so I wouldn't be able enhance the functionality of the site in that way. If I can contribute in any way, we can hash it out wherever or we can do this via pm.

Is there anything that we as a community could build as an add-on to enhance areas of barbelith and circumvent the lack of code access? Is a new board the key or are there other things we can do as satellite efforts to make things better or more interesting?

Redesigning a new front page and adding links to new features that we manage outside of barbelith wouldn't be too hard. Parsing out RSS feeds with newly updated threads and the like should also prove to be a minimally invasive way to freshen some things up. Regulating incoming applications to an outside system shouldn't prove too difficult either if we can foresee any benefit there.

I know that none of those suggestions may help out the core issues much (new and existing member management), but it's something.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:27 / 04.03.07
Development is really the key here isn't it? Haus is an interesting proposition for administrative purposes but as far as I'm aware isn't a developer and so preferably would not be instructed to play with barbelith's back end.

Let's pretend for a second that we've got some people who can sort out the technical side of things- what actually needs to be done? It seems to me that we're clear on the need to have banning ability so how do we want it? As an administration ability that is available in the same way as moderation and given to a small number of people? As something that is only accessible through the back end? As an ability for all moderators or a brief few? I don't want Haus to have banning rights when I don't... he's far too lenient.

It strikes me that we may not know what is possible but then again, most things are possible, you just have to spend more time on the complicated stuff. So ideally what the shit would we do with this place technically if we had free reign? Remember these are just suggestions, they can be fantastic or realistic but there's no expectation that they will ever happen. It might not be bad to engage in a little idealistic brainstorming though?

(I've intentionally put this in the same thread because it seems silly to outsource when everyone's basically writing one sentence about paying attention right now... also I'd like all of this to be searchable in one place, objections discounted, please feel free to just move it to a new thread if you think it's a bit too much.)
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:31 / 04.03.07
Jack, Seth> The issue isn't just banning, nor is it just about getting new blood in. Those two things, though, are a direct result of the core problem - a total lack of technical control.

The idea, for a whole back there, was for Barbelith to be a place where a new form of online community could be developed through constant reinvention of the structure of the board - societal as well as technical, yes, but there comes a point where you can't do an enormous amount to the former without having the ability to shape the latter.

And where we are now is almost the exact oppostie of that. Barbelith has become the least adaptable board I've ever seen, and quite possibly one of the least adaptable on the entire internet. You decide to go for an off-the-shelf solution for your message board, you're going to be able to get any one of a number of plug-ins to make it do what the people on the board want it to. You go for a custom-developed piece of software, as we have here, and you're going to leave yourself in the hands of the person who developed that software.

Which is why there's a part of me leaning towards Tann's option 3, possibly even above option 2.

Changing the surroundings keeps the company fresh, keeps people interested and invested. Leaving everything as-is makes everybody, eventually, grow very tired of having to consistently deal with the exact same problems again, and again, and again. I keep asking myself why I want to bother with somehwere that has no effective troll management system in place, a moderation system that has the potential to fall apart at the seams at the drop of a hat - if a number of moderators in any one forum are away for any amount of time together, nothing will be voted on, and we *do* currently have moderator lists that are in sore need of updating - and a crippled signing-on systemn that can only put people off from joining. Amongst other things.

And the answer is that I'm still emotionally attached to the place, both because of my personal history here and also sections of the current userbase. But it's getting to the point now where I honestly don't think I can read many more posts about how some new dickhead is disrupting Temple, or see a membership system that was originally put in place to weed out trolls clearly failing to do so, without that pushing me over the edge and giving up.

Or even smaller things, like having to edit yet another post because somebody didn't bother making a link into a link, or tried to use UBB code, or posted spoilers without even trying to warn anybody, or couldn't be arsed to add an abstract to a topic, or... you get the picture.

Anyway. That's me for this topic for now. I want to wait and see if paleface and Tom can work anything out, or if somebody else can throw their hat into the ring and offer the kind of technical expertise that we need. But trying to keep a board functioning without a single person available to fix bugs or try out new solutions to old problems is absolutely bonkers.
 
  

Page: 12(3)45678... 9

 
  
Add Your Reply