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How do you tell when something's unacceptable on Barbelith? Changing to become a discussion on the future of Barbelith.

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D Terminator XXXIII

12:01 / 17.03.07

Anything referring to the incident within thread I'd also happily see deleted, if need be.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:27 / 17.03.07

Wow. That's twice in a month someone's actually responded reasonably to reasonable criticism. I think we may have a record here. If only it could become the norm...

13:01 / 17.03.07

Let's try for the hat trick...

D Terminator XXXIII

13:27 / 17.03.07

I actually have some questions about what is and what isn't acceptable. I mean, is calling Jools Holland a cock more acceptable than calling a woman who behaves negatively a bitch? Is the word bitch a word that can never be used on Barbelith? What about beeyotch?

Where's the line?

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:22 / 17.03.07

And so we return to begin again. Privilege. Power structures. Inequality. Patriarchy. All explained again from the beginning. Round and round we go!

D Terminator XXXIII

14:28 / 17.03.07

That's not what I meant. I asked innocently. Can I not ask? Am I not a member too?

Why is it - seemingly - more acceptable to describe someone as a cock - a word I find more transgressive - than a bitch? Within, say, American media, is bitch not more acceptable* than cock? I very much like to know where exactly the boundaries are within barbelith.

* = not that that is right.

D Terminator XXXIII

14:31 / 17.03.07

I mean, I could ask also why you're allowed so much leeway when sometimes you border on the unacceptable - I was no big fan when you wished a couple of people dead, again, I find it more transgressive than describing someone as a cock or bitch - even though I appreciate you dearly as a member of barbelith. But to do that, I would have to engage more and dig out certain examples and I'm asking myself if I'm prepared to do that and now might not be the time.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:47 / 17.03.07

I'm sure the media does find it more acceptable for someone to be called a bitch. Because of some of the words and concepts I listed above. Barbelith, as I understand it, although god knows I'm almost certainly way out of sync with the current culture here, aims to be a place with different values to the American or UK or really any other media.

Actually, I think there are plenty of contexts in which the word bitch is not misogynistic, ranging from self-description to consensual dirty talk. One of those is probably fine on Barbelith. I don't find this to be a complicated idea, really, as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

As for my behaviour... Start a thread about it if you think I should be chastised.

D Terminator XXXIII

15:35 / 17.03.07

I don't think you should; I was just saying that if you wished to have that particular discussion (or not, as was the content of your post), well, I could bring up a few points with you; I'm frankly astounded that you can read so much intent into what was basically a barebones post, and read so wildly out of context (or other forms of context, times past, all that) to have that reaction.

So. I know that what passes in America is not the same for Barbelith -- that's what I alluded to in the post after your own, in case you misread or misunderstood it -- so thanks for pointing that out. Thanks also for pointing out that there are variables in the use of the word bitch.

*

15:55 / 17.03.07

I think folks simply get tired of explaining again and again that sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander, when there are clearly inequalities in power structures that only go one way. "Bitch" partakes of and supports these inequalities, "cock" doesn't.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

17:57 / 17.03.07

I guess one reason I'm okay with grr-grr-fighty-murder talk on Barbelith but not okay with "my ex-wife is a stupid bitch" is that most people don't try to murder me (at least not on casual aquaintance) but being called a stupid bitch is something that's been happening all my life.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:11 / 17.03.07

I think that's key, actually- if somebody (me, for the sake of argument) says they'd like to kill someone else (Jeremy Clarkson, for the sake of argument) it's most of the time fairly obvious that this is not seriously meant. I mean, in real life I would never do such a thing. Nor would I actually like to do it, as I fucking hate violence. I would hope that if someone (even me) was expressing their actual, real-life desire to commit murder, everyone else would take action. Whereas if someone calls someone else a "stupid (or whatever adjective) bitch" there's no obvious reason why we should assume they don't actually mean it.

Put it this way. I'm more inclined to believe that the use of the word "bitch" is misogynistic than that, say, Flyboy is actually planning to stab several people in the face.

D Terminator XXXIII

19:17 / 17.03.07

I think folks simply get tired of explaining again and again that sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander

I understand why this can be so, but, you know, sometimes one needs a bit more than supposition in order to understand what went on there. After it was pointed out to me by MattS, I instinctively knew I had gone too far for, I would say, many of the readers and participants of Barbelith -- I just wanted that instinct to be explained a bit more, if possible, s'all. Thanks for the replies peeps (aside: Mordant, that sounds horrific -- people in general or acquaintances?).

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:55 / 17.03.07

Can I answer your question with some questions?

Does it really, honestly, genuinely come as a surprise to you that an FI person would have direct experience of misogynistic language being applied to her in a harrassing way?

Can you not think of times when you've observed a female aquaintance being spoken to in this way?

Can you not think of times when you've overheard male aquaintances use misogynistic language to describe women?

Is this all really so far outside your experience?

I'm genuinely curious.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:03 / 17.03.07

I'd also suggest having a read of the Feminism 101 thread, which may be helpful to you.

D Terminator XXXIII

06:21 / 18.03.07

Is this all really so far outside your experience?

Yes. And not because I don't know women very well.

17:18 / 18.03.07

Really? B, you're going down in my estimations very fast. Might I suggest that you start thinking a lot harder about, for example, how women are treated in the popular media?

Just this morning I was listening to Jo Brand tells us how the sun ran a story on her wedding day entitled Here Comes the Bride All Fat and Wide, you know, because God fucking forbid a women who is size ten or above should find loveand happiness, and, well, she does hate men, you know.

*

17:33 / 18.03.07

I love it when other men make pronouncements about how well they know women. Gets my little heart all aflutter.

Actually, no, I think what happens when I see other guys making pronouncements about how well they "know women"—especially in the absence of anyone questioning this in the first place, as here—is that I believe they may be confused about how much this sense of "knowing women" as a category helps them understand the lives and experiences of individual women, or else wonder how they have daily conversations with upwards of 4 billion people about their feelings and experiences. And actually listen. I spent 25 years living as a woman and I wouldn't be that presumptuous—I "know women" to exactly the same extent that I "know people" in general.

If you say that you "know" some group of people based on knowing a handful of them, or based on a sense that you understand the characteristics that make up that category, you've basically said "I have a lot of stereotypes about X that I believe are true." That's what a stereotype is—a belief about a broad category of person based on a tiny sample and/or derived rules, despite the fact that such a belief never holds true for the entire group.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:32 / 18.03.07

I interpreted that sentence not as "I know women (as a set) reasonably well" but as "I know (some) women well." That is, that Bambling has some female friends he feels close enough to to talk about this issue and they haven't reported similar treament. Was I correct there, B.?

*

19:58 / 18.03.07

Oh, oops, okay.

D Terminator XXXIII

20:18 / 18.03.07

Was I correct there, B.?

OTM.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:30 / 18.03.07

Good-oh. (In that case, you need an "any" in the sentence, as in "And not because I don't know any women very well.")

Still a bit surprised at that statement, BTW.

D Terminator XXXIII

20:33 / 18.03.07

And one of these days I will post something in the thread Mordant provided, once I have had a readthrough and time to reflect on why it is that the women I know are the way they are, and why it surprises me how crummy women can be treated throughout their lives.

D Terminator XXXIII

20:36 / 18.03.07

Yeah, now that I think about it, it is quite surprising, isn't it? It's not like the women I've known and know haven't experienced hardships in their lives but somehow, those I've gotten close to have all been strong, possibly stronger than many other women, and it just is innate in my thinking that women are this strong...

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:49 / 18.03.07

those I've gotten close to have all been strong, possibly stronger than many other women, and it just is innate in my thinking that women are this strong...

I'm not sure I've understood you here. Are you saying that women are only subjected to misogynistic abuse if they are not strong--if they are weak? Or are you saying that "strong" women don't discuss these experiences?

D Terminator XXXIII

21:05 / 18.03.07

No, I meant that the misogynistic abuse didn't define the women I know and have known and I just find it natural that it shouldn't. I do realise that women who, through no fault of their own, continually suffer from misogynism exist, there can be no debate on that, but largely, I haven't known many who continue to suffer from such treatment.

Does it make sense?

D Terminator XXXIII

21:18 / 18.03.07

I'm clearly struggling with putting it into words but as promised, I'll have a more thorough think and post in the appropriate thread.

Regrettable Juvenilia

21:30 / 18.03.07

There's a weirdly fatalistic tone to what you're saying, as far as I can make out - and I'm also very suspicious of people who talk about those who are on the receiving end of prejudice/inequality on a macro scale "letting" it "define" them or not. It's a stone's throw away from talking about victim mentality etc., which I do think exists on a micro level in terms of any individual, I just don't think it applies to a power structure as huge and omnipresent as patriarchy. Does that make sense?

D Terminator XXXIII

21:45 / 18.03.07

I f a fatalistic vibe is what you're getting - I'm assuming that you think I think that some women can't help it being victims of misogyny - then I must be unpacking my thoughts very clumsily. I'll strive to do better with my promise.

Tryphena Absent

09:13 / 19.03.07

This is a pretty difficult subject to address and I think you're doing okay. Clearly you're talking about a small number of people you know and how that defines your perception rather than how that has to be applied to all people of a type (in this case women). That's not a negative thing to say when taken in context but there needs to be a recognition here that every woman and man is defined, not necessarily by misogyny but certainly by sexism. For instance in the majority of offices there will be more men in the power hierachy than women, which means that all of the people who do that type of work will be better acquainted with deferring to men than women.

Disco is My Class War

09:30 / 19.03.07

D Terminator, maybe you should do some off-the-cuff research: ask your female friends if anyone's ever called them a stupid bitch, or similar, and how they interpreted it politically (ie, was it about subjugating women?)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:02 / 22.03.07

Have just recieved a (polite if rather tight-lipped) PM from khorosho, currently badsinner645, in which ze declined to get involved in any discussion of whether ze was out of line or not and seemed to indicate that ze's leaving. (I pass this on with permission, natch.)

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