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How do you tell when something's unacceptable on Barbelith? Changing to become a discussion on the future of Barbelith.

 
  

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Spatula Clarke
22:23 / 04.03.07
I want to reiterate, before anybody tries twisting it, that this is *not* an attack on Tom.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:39 / 04.03.07
Didn't read like one to me, Randy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:30 / 04.03.07
Haus is an interesting proposition for administrative purposes but as far as I'm aware isn't a developer and so preferably would not be instructed to play with barbelith's back end.

Indeed - there is no way, as far as I know, to give somebody "administrator powers" - the kind of powers moderators have using a standard interface on other boards. "The power to ban" actually means the power to go into the database and change somebody's password and email data, so they cannot log in and cannot get their password sent to them. I don't know what the complexities of going into the database are, but I imagine it would mean giving access to email addresses, private messages, other such things... might be a bit tricky.
 
 
netbanshee
02:07 / 05.03.07
Yeah... not having a reference point on the system makes it difficult to see how this site was developed and how administrative functions integrate to the back-end. Having a duplicate dev area to compare to would be helpful, but that's still a decision that Tom and Cal have to be comfortable with.

I can understand Tom's access and liability concerns simply based on the fact that over the past few years systems I've helped introduce sites that are very different from one another in regards to levels of security and capability. Sometimes a cms (content management system) is in place to handle it discreetly, other times it's a manual process that allows complete access to all of the site's content. Having some experience with these issues make decisions like these very careful ones.

ERD definitely has some good suggestions if barbefolk were willing to migrate over to a different solution. User-centric, off-the-shelf solutions do offer quite a few attractive elements but it's still a time-consuming proposition to get right. I guess I'm just curious if there are some options available to us that don't possess the social engineering prowess needed for a mass migration to another space.
 
 
Sax
06:50 / 05.03.07
Watching but not talking.
 
 
Dutch
07:30 / 05.03.07
Something I wanted to ask, actally. I'm not sure if it's a moot point, but would the creation of a new board imply the fading into net-obscurity of the old board? It would be sad to see some of the threads here on Barbelith of the past and all the effort put into making them slowly disappear when the board migrates to another place.
 
 
Spaniel
07:48 / 05.03.07
Perhaps they could be migrated?
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:24 / 05.03.07
My idea for "administrator powers" was that that person - Haus, say - could oversee the work, even if carried out by someone else and help verify that the technical and security concerns were addressed in place of Tom. I admit that I was also assuming that scrambling (that is, changing) someone's password would also be doable for a reasonably computer literate person (like Haus), and I'd still be surprised if it wasn't.
 
 
jentacular dreams
09:35 / 05.03.07
Migrating active threads might prove confusing in that presumable the same member would have a different suit on the new site (though they could still use the same names obviously). But assuming the design is similar I'd think older or locked threads could probably be copied over without these problems. Obviously care would have to be taken that the posting dates/sequences were maintained.

Is it possible to embed one website in another? Would a new more adaptable 'lith be able to contain the older but still active barbelith within it, even if hosted by different servers etc, with cross-access in place but without messing up the parent-site?
 
 
Olulabelle
15:20 / 05.03.07
The idea, for a whole back there, was for Barbelith to be a place where a new form of online community could be developed through constant reinvention of the structure of the board - societal as well as technical, yes, but there comes a point where you can't do an enormous amount to the former without having the ability to shape the latter.


For me this would be a very real and important aspect of any new board. I would very much like to develop the community itself and the fact that we basically are unable to do any sort of developing at all is one of the things I find most frustrating these days.

Regarding Tom and Paleface having a conversation, is that about what can be done codewise, or whether Tom is willing to relinquish the code, or what? Just 'having a chat' all sounds a little bit nebulous to me.
 
 
*
16:43 / 05.03.07
Looking in now and again.
 
 
gridley
17:22 / 05.03.07
Reading, but nothing to add.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
18:06 / 05.03.07
For me, the look and feel of the board as it is is one of its strengths - it not another UBB site with avatars and smileys - though if it could be designed in such a way to suit our collective design preferences, I suppose that could be overcome by those who know how to design interfaces to make any new non-bespoke board fit whatever template is possible.

Something I wanted to ask, actally. I'm not sure if it's a moot point, but would the creation of a new board imply the fading into net-obscurity of the old board? It would be sad to see some of the threads here on Barbelith of the past and all the effort put into making them slowly disappear when the board migrates to another place.

I think that would be my biggest objection to shifting wholesale to another new board using different software. I'm not sure how easy it would be to bring over posts lock, stock and barrel to different, off the shelf board software.

I suppose one way round this would be to have links back to previous threads here - but having two boards running in parallel (possibly locking this one eventually) would at the very least mean lack of easy searchability. While the Google search in the format site:www.barbelith.com we use at present isn't ideal, it does work reasonably well.

So my preference would be for the option (if it ever becomes a possibility of course) of Tom and Cal releasing the board software to trusted developers to work on in tandem with this current iteration in the expectation of the eventual transfer of the historical thread data to Barbelith Two - Electric Boogaloo (beta) with all the bells and whistles we would like to see tried and at least partly tested while it is in development.
 
 
grant
19:02 / 05.03.07
Meanwhile, now that this has totally become a "Whither Barbelith?" discussion, a new user has signed on with the name "Mister Honky," which may or may not be thought of as unacceptable on Barbelith.

Hmm.
 
 
Feverfew
19:44 / 05.03.07
I assumed it to be a reference to MC Honky, but I could very well be mistaken, and, also, would it matter?
 
 
Princess
20:03 / 05.03.07
I was wondering about that also, but decided to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Because honk is a sound that geese make.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:28 / 05.03.07
I also just came here to post about that! I'm not especially happy with that name. I realise it's different from Mr Darky or something, because "Honky" is coming from an oppressed rather than an oppressor's position, but I still feel Honky is a racial slur.

The fact that geese make the noise is irrelevant in my opinion. The word for a small crack of light can also be a racial slur against Chinese people.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:29 / 05.03.07
Regarding Mr Honky - can someone with more tact and diplomacy than me PM the user?

Regarding the board and the fact that barbelith is beautiful and a little bit searchable, I really don't think Tom is just going to hand over the board though, so changing it is not an option. We've asked in various different iterations so many times and the answer has always been no. What's different about this time? Nothing.
Unless we put real presssure on him to relinquish control and hand over that control to the community it ain't gonna happen.

I agree with other people who have said that the issues of member data and the coding getting broken are all just smokescreens for the fact that Tom just doesn't really want to give up control of the board completely. See, the thing is, yes, the member data could get lost, yes the code could get broken, but if we as a community are willing to risk that, there isn't really a reason not to hand the board over except for Tom's personal feelings about it and we always come down to that.

Ideally, control of the board being handed over would be best, (and obviously that would have to include paying for the webspace, however that would work for us) but if that can't happen which is how it seems at the moment, perhaps a new phoenix board is the next best and really the only option?
 
 
Tsuga
23:39 / 05.03.07
Lula: Unless we put real presssure on him to relinquish control and hand over that control to the community it ain't gonna happen.

But, how does he hand it over to the "community"? Like, what steps do you propose, meeting on an aircraft carrier and having him had over an ornamental saber with the code inscribed on it, to General Haus? I'm really not trying to be a jerk, I'm making light. It's just kind of funny to imagine. But what do you envision as the steps towards transition? Who is actually involved, and how will it make things different?


I agree with other people who have said that the issues of member data and the coding getting broken are all just smokescreens for the fact that Tom just doesn't really want to give up control of the board completely. See, the thing is, yes, the member data could get lost, yes the code could get broken, but if we as a community are willing to risk that, there isn't really a reason not to hand the board over except for Tom's personal feelings about it and we always come down to that.
Why do you say it's a smokescreen? Just because Tom feels that way, right or wrong, and it's different from what you think, does it mean he's hiding the real fact that he just wants to retain utter control over something he barely is involved in? I might just be giving him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he's a control freak, I don't know, but maybe he just believes that. But ultimately, what is the control needed? Apparently it just comes down to more people being able to flush trolls, so it's not frustrating to go through the tedium of back-and-forth with someone stubbornly refusing to not chafe or fight or whatever-it-is-they're-doing (I must admit I've been very interested in the threads like that I've witnessed, but I could see how after a few times it would get really old. No one wants a bunch of buttwads cropping up, and the lack of ease in joining to prevent that thins things out too much). But, other than banning, is the only other control needed that of changing the functionality to update it? Forgive me if I'm missing something, I've actually been reading this thread, and I've read many other threads like this. I see that it is a recurring problem. I don't understand the idea of "re-inventing the societal structure" stuff. But it's very possible I'm not thinking creatively enough.

Autocracy is not really my favorite, either, but I kind of appreciate the fact that at least Tom's not over-controlling at all (though, yes, over all, controlling).
 
 
Olulabelle
07:55 / 06.03.07
I don't think it is just about getting rid of trolls though. In the past we've come up with lots of ideas for things we would like but which could not be implemented because of time restrictions on the people who would have to do it.

You'd have to ask someone more political than me but I suppose handing over control of the community would mean giving the board members the right and responsibility to amend the code of the board themselves (via a nominated programmer) and giving the board members the right and responsibility to police themselves following their own rules and as they see fit. There are things to worry about of course, like what if people leave or get fed up with making decisions, but most organisations and communities have people coming and going and still seem to work if there are a few core people invested in the idea.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:32 / 06.03.07
Yes, it's not really about General Anyone - it's about having people able to access the code who are also able to find the time to access the code and make changes.

However:

See, the thing is, yes, the member data could get lost, yes the code could get broken, but if we as a community are willing to risk that, there isn't really a reason not to hand the board over except for Tom's personal feelings about it and we always come down to that.

You see, this I disagree with. Somebody who joined five years ago might have hundreds of private messages and their work email details, for example, in that database, and an insecure database would mean that that could be found by somebody else - specifically, somebody they did not expect to be looking at the database when they signed up. Not advocating trolls' rights, here, but a banned member, for example, has no power to alter or amend the data he or she had in the database, not having a login. It would take me a very long time to save or even delete all the Private Messages I have on my account. There _isn't_ a "we as a community" here - there are a couple of dozen people talking about what to do with 5000+ user entries. This would be why I would favour building a new board, either using or not using the code from this one. We could reimport workable code into this board once it had been heavily tested on that board, if it was based on the Barbelith code - in effect, it would be a dev site with a small number of volunteer testers. However, I imagine that Tom would want to review any code before it was loaded back onto this board, which would in turn mean that we would be waiting for Tom to have time to do that.

On Mr. Honky - if this is an issue, Tom needs to get involved or he has to stay silent for 28 days. He _can't_ change his name for another 28 days, remember? I would ask who exactly believes the term to be unacceptable and why, though.
 
 
Quantum
08:54 / 06.03.07
it would be a dev site with a small number of volunteer testers.

That's something that could be done with or without Tom's assistance, isn't it? If there's the will to build a beta board.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:17 / 06.03.07
Of course - but if it's going to be based on the Barbelith code, or if there is any thought of reimporting the changes to this board, the code needs to be released.
 
 
Quantum
12:04 / 06.03.07
But if not, we needn't wait on the code. I'd *like* to use barbecode and bring back improvements but if another year goes by without anything happening then let's work around it.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:59 / 06.03.07
On Mr. Honky - if this is an issue, Tom needs to get involved or he has to stay silent for 28 days. He _can't_ change his name for another 28 days, remember? I would ask who exactly believes the term to be unacceptable and why, though.

I wouldn't feel able to say whether it's an unacceptable name on Barbelith, but if someone called me a honky in real life, I'd feel they were trying to insult me on the basis of my skin colour.

Having it as a user name is, of course, slightly different from someone calling me a honky in real life. However, I think the term is fairly commonly recognised as a racial insult.

I don't think it's a huge deal, but it makes me wonder what the person's intentions were in choosing that name ~ whether it was thoughtless, innocent or deliberate ~ and I think it, in general, goes against the idea of Barbelith being a welcoming environment for people of all ethnicities.

It's possible I'm making a little something out of nothing, though, and if nobody else feels the same way about it, I'm happy to stand down.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:11 / 06.03.07
Perhaps you could PM the user and ask why they chose the name?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:21 / 06.03.07
You know what, I should, but I don't actually want to have a private conversation with someone called Mr Honky. I don't know. I just feel I'd rather not engage with the kind of person who thinks that's a funny or cool name. But as I'm clearly not prepared to make any effort about it, I'll shut up about it now.
 
 
petunia
08:00 / 07.03.07
If the poster was a gay male who decided to call himself 'Mister F**', would the usage of a slur continue to pose a problem?

Assuming Mister Honky is a white male, could the name choice not count as the reclaiming of a slur?

But then, would people be okay with a black man calling himself 'Mister N*****'?

How much does the context of something define how (un)acceptable that thing is?
 
 
petunia
08:13 / 07.03.07
I've PMd Mister Honky to let him know this discussion is happening.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:27 / 07.03.07
Trampetunia, could we possibly not illustrate the evils of using hate speech by using hate speech, please? We understand your point without it.

Speaking personally, I think there is a significant difference between the three terms you have used. I have never been called a honky. If I were to be called a honky, I think I would be bewildered rather than offended. I see it for a number of reasons - its archaism and the power relationships surrounding it - to be of a rather different order. However, my experience of the term is not everyone's - so, your mileage may vary. If people are actually being upset by the term, we could ask Tom to change it to something else of the chap's choosing.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:37 / 07.03.07
I've never heard the term honky before. Who does it insult?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:45 / 07.03.07
Whitey! And while we all know that isn't as bad as the racism white people practice consciously or not and benefit from every. Single. Day of our lives, it's still very offensive, isn't it? Poor whitey!

I burnt all my Breeders records in protest, too.
 
 
petunia
10:30 / 07.03.07
Trampetunia, could we possibly not illustrate the evils of using hate speech by using hate speech, please?

Apologies. I wasn't thinking. Moderation request sent.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:46 / 07.03.07
Whitey! And while we all know that isn't as bad as the racism white people practice consciously or not and benefit from every. Single. Day of our lives, it's still very offensive, isn't it? Poor whitey!

This is true of course, which is why I was half-hearted in any complaint. I don't know ~ while I entirely see your point, Flyboy, should some terms that insult people on the basis of skin colour be OK here? I really don't know. What if some members of Barbelith were offended by another person calling them "breeders"? This isn't rhetorical; I really don't know how I feel about it in terms of what's acceptable within this community.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:47 / 07.03.07
Yeah, just to reiterate, I don't know. Really don't. Poor whitey wonderstarr. The privilege of this burdensome worrying.
 
  

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