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Thinly veiled

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
Disco is My Class War
23:52 / 16.10.06
There's a really great post here on hijab by Jill at Feministe, which articulates a whole lot of the problems with banning veils in terms of feminism and public space.

Lady, I'm still waiting, along with some others it seems, for your explanation of the 'presumably because she thinks she's going to be pack raped' statement. It kinda sucks when people make explosive comments like that then run off and avoid the pertinent thread, posting elsewhere meanwhile.
 
 
Slate
05:19 / 17.10.06
I just want to mention Turkey with reference to the veil/hijab. It has been illegal there for woman to wear the veil OR head scarf in any Government institution since the 1930's when Attaturk created modern day Turkey from the remnants of the Ottoman empire. There are sporadic protests now and again about this fact of life for Turkey's 99.8% Muslim population but I guess it really depends on whether or not a country wants to be seen as secular or not? I know Britain is a secular country and thought that all this could be resolved through a matter of law? Is there a specific set of laws which cuts a knife between church and state in Britain?

Also, following this observation between Turkey and Britain, why does one set of percieved threats to Muslim womens rights exist through statements made by Mr. Straw garner so much attention and something that is actual law in a Muslim country is not and has not been made an example of in the past? Over-reactionary? Double standards or just the media stirring the pot trying to divide people further on the Religion debate?
 
 
nighthawk
05:34 / 17.10.06
That is a fantastic post Mister Disco, particularly:

When it’s banned, the only people it hurts are the women and girls who are deprived of education, of work, and of public interaction. It puts all the burden of combating extremisim, embracing enlightenment, and balancing religious belief with modern life on the backs of women. The arguments about it only reinstate the idea that women are what they physically present to the world, and that religious and governmental authorities have the right to dictate how women present themselves, because that presentation is representative of the greater culture and its “values” — which are largely shaped and determined by the men in charge. It treats women as symbols, not as autonomous beings deserving of full and unqualified human rights. And, again, it puts women in an impossible situation, where they must negotiate their religious beliefs, their political persuations, their physical safety, their social standing, and the laws of their country, and make a decision which will inevitably be under attack from someone.
 
 
Olulabelle
06:23 / 17.10.06
What about the fact that in order for women to have to do and feel all those things that No Panic states they have to be wearing it in the first place, where men are not and do not have a similar face covering requirement?

The covering of female faces is used as a tool of oppression in some places, I don't know if anyone saw the programme about Afghan women learning to drive last night, but it struck me as very significant that when all these outwardly feminist ladies (as far as you can be in Afghanistan) who were learing to drive had to face hardline muslim men making comments like, Do not laugh." they reached for their veils and pulled them up over their faces very nervously.

I think that because it is women who have to address the feminist issues surrounding the banning of the niqab, it stands to reason that prior to that there are feminist issues surrounding the wearing if it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:11 / 17.10.06
I think that's where the "again" comes in in:

And, again, it puts women in an impossible situation, where they must negotiate their religious beliefs, their political persuations, their physical safety, their social standing, and the laws of their country, and make a decision which will inevitably be under attack from someone.

That is, being forced to wear the veil and being forced not to wear the veil are both impositions on women.

Suitcase Rider: Well, the short version is "no". The United Kingdom is not a secular state. It has an established church - the Church of England - of which the Queen, the head of state, is the defender. The House of Lords, the upper house of our bicameral system, has among its membership the 26 Lords Spiritual - the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, the Bishops of London, Durham and Westminster and the 21 longest-serving other bishops of the Church of England. If Britain were a secular state, then a ban on all external signs of religious affiliation in government buildings would be more credible, although then we're back to to whether it's a religious thing, a cultural thing, an ease-of-communication thing or a covering-the-face thing. Also, this might sit ill with current government policy on faith schools. Polly Toynbee has this to say on that.

Meanwhile, another Guardian article today which follows that standard Guardian model - rather than talking to somebody who wears the veil regularly, they got one of their reporters to wear the veil for 24 hours. Result? People who don't wear the veil don't feel very comfortable wearing a veil. Hmmm. One interesting thing is that at no point in the article does the reporter suggest that it is difficult to speak to or hear while wearing the niqab - although it does seem to make it harder to see. Which brings us back to Aishah Azmi.

Now, my understanding is that Ms Azmi did not wear her veil during her interview - which suggests that she might be able to draw a link between not wearing it and not being raped. My next question would be whether she negotiated an agreement whereby she could be veiled in the common room and corridors, but not while teaching, or whether this was subsequently suggested when she turned up for work in a veil. Regardless of why this might be, if this is a case of a person deciding that the terms of their employment were no longer appropriate to their lifestyle, that's a slightly different issue. Why the veil was not suitable for the classroom is another issue. What she actually does in the classroom is another. She has so far been called a teacher and a learning assistant, but deeper digging seems to suggest that she provided "bilingual support". At a guess, that means that she translated the Urdu or Panjabi of the students into English for the teacher, and vice versa. In that context, we're back to whether the niqab was making the accomplishment of her job impossible. Having a dress code in a classroom does not seem to me unreasonable - my plans to teach primary school children without trousers on, due to my belief that trousers are a signifier of cultural separation, went down in flames rather at the first PTA meeting.

On a somewhat related topic, the Muslim Council of Britain has come out in support of Marion Eweida, suspended by British Airways for refusing to wear a cross under rather than above her clothing. BA says that this rule is not a religious one, but rather applies to all jewellery on chains as part of their dress code. Eweida's defence, however, has been that Muslims are allowed to wear veils, Sikhs are allowed to wear turbans, and therefore that she should be able to wear a visible crucifix - that is, that this is an issue of religious freedom to display signs of faith rather than a case about the wearing of jewellery on chains. Not sure where to go on this - it's certainly a kind of sidenote.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:18 / 17.10.06
Misted Disco- I think you'll find that, since you started deciding to read my comments in this thread as offensive to Muslims I HAVEN'T been posting elsewhere on this board. As things stand I haven't had access to the Internet at home since yesterday morning and didn't have time to do much more than read this thread while at work yesterday. I'll try and circle round and deal with what both you and Haus have been saying this afternoon but sadly am a tadge busy right now.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:44 / 17.10.06
Hmmm, and suddenly an oasis of calm appears before me. Rightyho...

No Panic and No ! At the Disco because presumably they'd immediately stop teaching the phonics and start raping her in front of the kids.

I'm finding the outpouring of frankly anti-Muslim sentiment in this thread quite incredible. Lady, you have cultural practices that mean a lot to you, I presume, and that you probably wouldn't like being told to stop doing (in a professional situation, or whatever) for a whole range of reasons.


Well, here I have a problem, because I don't see this as being anti-Muslim. To address this and Haus' point together, my knowledge of the Quran is a year ot two old, limited and based on being a non-believer, my understanding is that woman are told to dress modestly to avoid inflaming men's passions. Now, it is perfectly possible that a Islamic woman may be wearing some form of covering because she suffers from some sort of social phobia that makes her unwilling to show her face in public. It's also possible that this has been stated in the tribunal and the media is not reporting it, for their own reasons. However, she has stated she would show her face if there were no males present. Equally however, as a Muslim it is possible that she is following the dictate of her own religion, which I believe states that she is being instructed to dress modestly to avoid inflaming the male teachers passions.

FWIW, in this particular case I wonder why some middle way couldn't be found, whether she couldn't have been moved to work in a class with only women teachers present, or whether she was refusing to take her veil off in their presence too.

Parents offer little support for teacher who wore veil.

Let's say someone -- say, a transvestite -- was working in the public service and wearing a skirt and make-up to work. If someone on Barbelith made the same kind of sarcastic, derisive comment about that person as you made above, you would be speechless. You would interpet that person as being anti-trans, would you not?

If someone made a sarcastic, derisive comment about that person I would be surprised. I would suggest that you are misunderstanding my intentions in what I said and why.

Later on...
What I really detest is the sense of entitlement I hear in statements like... Lady's comment that If one woman's symbol of their religious freedom is another's symbol of their being under religious domination it's going to confuse a lot of other people. In the latter statement in particular, it's the other people who might be confused who matter more, to Lady.

I'm not really sure what to say with this one. We were talking at the time of the perception of people outside of the Muslim community of women within the Muslim community. MD, I can only think you read that as me being dismissive of Muslim women because you've already decided I am dismissive of Muslim women.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:34 / 17.10.06
I'm afraid I remain confused. So, what controls the "presumably" there, Lady? You aren't presuming that that would be the case. You are, as far as I can tell, presuming that she presumes that that would be the case. However, as far as I can tell, you don't have anything to back up that presumption, except, as near as I can tell, a feeling that the Quran says so. There's also the question of how you get from "inflame passions" to "be raped".

As it happens, the Quran tells both men and women to lower their gazes and act modestly. It tells women not to fold their shawls over their bosoms and to reveal their charms (or adornments, or various other things, depending on your translation, which does cause problems) only to their husbands, or to (a list of other people, essentially children, relatives, slaves and "male attendants without sexual desire" - eunuchs, at a best guess. As we know, the translatiion of the Quran is not in itself the Quran, so textual analysis is a difficult study. As far as rape goes, I don't think that at any point the HQ draws a direct correlation between showing one's face to men outside your family and being raped. Hence my question - I was wondering whether this was a reason for not deveiling that she had stated, or a reason for not deveiling that you had ascribed to her. It appears that the latter is the case, in which case as far as I know there is no Quranic support for the conclusion you drew, and I remain interested in both the way in and the phrasing with which you drew it and Phex described it as the "underlying assumption" of the wearing of the veil. I had not realised that you were basing this on the Quran, which does mean that we can look to that for textual support. Does anyone know of a passage in the Quran in which women are told that if they expose their faces to men, they will be raped by them?
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
12:53 / 17.10.06
As we know, the translatiion of the Quran is not in itself the Quran, so textual analysis is a difficult study.

While we're on the subject, there's a Gutenberg Etext which provides three translations (including Pickthall's) side by side, line by line, which might be a useful resource for anyone wanting to, ah, read the Reading in English.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:03 / 17.10.06
We're wandering out of the remit of the Switchboard slightly on this one, but possibly it's interesting to think about this for a moment. Let's assume for a moment that she was not being pressured with threats of violence to wear the veil, and that she was not expecting, in immediate, temporal terms, anything terrible to happen if she took it off. From a secular point of view, it no longer makes sense for her to be wearing it, unless the reasoning can be explained in terms of psychological aberration - because from the secular point of view, it is not traditional to cover the lower face, except in very cold weather or other circumstances in which it is practical to do so.

However, it is also not traditional not to use a light switch between dusk on Friday and dusk on Saturday. Or, for that matter, to get up early on a Sunday to go to church. The "underlying assumption" beneath not using a light switch on Saturday, or not carrying a bag, or wearing a sheitl when outside, is not that failure to do so will result in immediate sexual assault. These things may be done for all sorts of reasons, to do with peer pressure, acculturation and so on, but the banner reason is because the doer believes that that is what God wants them to do, and that by doing it they are pleasing God. If you don't believe in God, or don't believe in a God who has opinions about your choice of headgear, that can be a difficult thing to process.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:23 / 17.10.06
Haus, perhaps you'd like to suggest a reason why this woman insists on wearing a veil and not taking it off in the presence of schoolteachers?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:31 / 17.10.06
Well, Lady, I think I just did. It may be because her understanding of the Quranic instruction to cover her charms/adornments and to cover that which would normally be concealed in the company of certain types of men, into which the male members of her school fit, is inclusive of the greater part of her face. Therefore, she believes that by following that instruction she is doing the will of God, and behaving in a way that is pleasing to him, without reference to any change in the probabilities that she will be sexually assaulted by her co-workers. To take another example - I believe that in general observant Jews do not eat pork, not in order to avoid being devoured by rabid pigs, but because they believe that by not eating pork they are behaving in a manner pleasing to God.
 
 
nighthawk
13:56 / 17.10.06
From a secular point of view, it no longer makes sense for her to be wearing it, unless the reasoning can be explained in terms of psychological aberration - because from the secular point of view, it is not traditional to cover the lower face, except in very cold weather or other circumstances in which it is practical to do so.

I'm not sure I understand your point here, Haus. By 'it no longer makes sense...' do you mean 'there is no traditional precedent...'? Is this true? (I don't know if veil-wearing has always been explicitly religious.) How does this sharp division between the secular and the religious work here? It strikes me that both traditions are closely intertwined, particularly in terms of (here) 'muslim' culture.

Take celebrating Christmas, an example from my own culture. This might seem strange in a secular society, but that's not the same as it not making sense. There are all sorts of rationalisations for making Christmas a holiday which do not depend solely on its traditional meaning (although they might depend on the fact that, in the past, England supported a broadly 'christian' culture). The same is true of wearing a niqab, especially when its placed in a particular cultural context. The post Mister Disco linked to above touches on something similar:

But the headscarf also gives certain classes of women greater mobility in their daily lives. It means that they can walk down the street without being harassed. It means that they can advocate for certain goals — like women’s rights — without having their religious credibility questioned. It means that they can escape being perceived as a sexual object for male pleasure.

None of these things should be viewed as endorsements of the headscarf. The fact that it gives women reprieve from a sexist society doesn’t actually do anything to combat that sexist society — but in the day to day, it makes life that much easier for many, many women and girls. And that matters.


I guess you're suggesting something similar when you say:

These things may be done for all sorts of reasons, to do with peer pressure, acculturation and so on, but the banner reason is because the doer believes that that is what God wants them to do, and that by doing it they are pleasing God.

Again, though, I'm not sure. Even within a particular religion, 'A does x because she is following religious precepts' does not necessarily equal 'A does x to please God', although that might be the case. But when you start talking about individual motivations for wearing the veil, especially the motivations of a particular women whose case has apparently become common property, it becomes much more complex.

We can speculate as to her motivations for not wearing the veil for hours on end, but at the end of the day, without her input, our conclusions will probably say more about our own understanding and attitudes towards Islam than about her case. When a poster says something along the lines of Our Lady's statement, what I find problemmatic is not so much its (fairly obvious) inaccuracy as the way this women is (to me) presented as some sort of hysterical caricature (she's worried that the minute she drops her veil the male teachers will 'stop teaching phonics and start raping her in front of the kids'), and what the fact that this characterisation was so easily 'presumed' says about attitudes towards Islamic culture and, in particular, the psychology of Muslim women
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:34 / 17.10.06
I've been having a little look on the internet, I'm finding some sources which say that Allah wants his women to dress modestly, others that say that they should cover up so as to not get the menfolk excited. As none of us are Islamic scholars I'm not sure we can argue this any further to great effect.

Tony Blair said a veil made some "outside the community feel uncomfortable"... He said he "fully supported" the way the authority dealt with Aishah Azmi at Headfield Church of England Junior School, in Dewsbury, by suspending her... When asked at the news conference if a Muslim woman wearing a veil could make a contribution to society, he replied: "That's a very difficult question. It is a mark of separation and that is why it makes other people from outside the community feel uncomfortable. No-one wants to say that people don't have the right to do it. That is to take it too far. But I think we need to confront this issue about how we integrate people properly into our society."

I'm going to have to see if I can see some more detailed coverage of this because as it's reported above it sounds as if Blair is saying that a Muslim woman would magically stop making a contribution to society if she put a veil on, which sounds daft. It must be bad reporting on the BBCs part.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:40 / 17.10.06
Again, though, I'm not sure. Even within a particular religion, 'A does x because she is following religious precepts' does not necessarily equal 'A does x to please God', although that might be the case. But when you start talking about individual motivations for wearing the veil, especially the motivations of a particular women whose case has apparently become common property, it becomes much more complex.

Well, yes. that's why I said "the banner reason", rather than "the actual reason", or, to use Phex's formulation, "the underlying assumption".

In general, though, I think we're coming from a very similar place, Nighthawk - that there are reasons for wearing a veil that may not immediately occur to people who don't do it - which may be rather other than what might be suggested (which, in this case, has precisely the problems you have identified). These reasons, you are quite right to say, may have a number of cultural and/or religious bases - my example was intended to point out that people do things for reasons that might not impel other people to do them. So, if you like pork and don't see anything wrong with eating pork, not eating pork may seem to you a curious affectation - just like wearing a veil. You might think that injunctions against eating pork have an origin in dietary codes adopted in a nomadic culture where meat spoiled quickly in the heat, and that to persist with this refusal to eat pork is just silly. Likewise, if you believe that the basis of covering one's face was to avoid sexual assault by unbearably excited men, you might see it as foolish to persist in the habit when you are surrounded by men who are manifestly able to look at women's uncovered faces without sexually assaulting them. You might see it as so foolish, in fact, as to be worth a bit of jollity - a caricaturing of a belief that, as it turns out, there is no evidence that she holds. I note that Flowers has interposted while I wrote this, again not noting that what ze said was that his representation of her subjectivity was that the male teachers would 'stop teaching phonics and start raping her in front of the kids' - once again, ze talks about men being excited, not women being raped.

However. My point is that to work from this basis is to ignore any number of reasons, religious and/or cultural, that have escaped your notice or your religious/cultural radar, and instead to take the power of describing the subject's subjectivity for yourself, as person (as it first appeared), or as representative of a culture or a religion.
 
 
nighthawk
14:46 / 17.10.06
Yeah, I cross-posted with your second reply to Flowers re: dietary choices, which made your point much clearer for me.
 
 
Quantum
15:00 / 17.10.06
Bit of info- Islamic scholars seem to say the veil is not obligatory for muslim women according to Al-Jazeerah. Mind you, the article also says;

semi-nude and scantly dressed women are like the nude animals that roam the jungle; constantly agitating the sexual instincts of the opposite sex.

So that might need a pinch of salt.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:33 / 17.10.06
I think Flowers is right to say that it's hard to say with confidence "Islamic philosophers/Quranic analysts think x", for the same reasons that it's hard to say "Christians say x". What we can say is that there is a significant debate over the Quranic necessity of covering the face, hair and hands, and much of that debate may not be accessible to us, before we even look at other reasons why one might decide to cover/expose various parts of the body.

On whether people in veils can be useful members of society: well. Tony Blair seems to be saying pretty much what Mister Disco represented as Jack Straw's point, but rather more directly - the veil makes some people look different, it makes other people uncomfortable, and the other people's discomfort is more important than any reason the people wearing veils might have for wearing them. Therefore, while we do not want to legislate against people having the right to wear the veil, successful integration will result in them not wanting to wear the veil, and so we can assume that discouraging people from wearing the veil - for example, by suspending them from work - will encourage them to integrate. It seems to be confusing the desire to raise the arm with the action of raising the arm, but for Mister Tony logic it's almost pellucid.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:39 / 19.10.06
Classroom assistant loses her claim of discrimination and harassment on religious grounds but was victimised. (Kirklees council statement)

Hmmm, without the full details of the trial being released into the public domain (does that happen?) this ruling seems as muddled as what we've been told of the case (The Guardian try to accentuate the positive by claiming this as a victory for the lady despite being ruled against on three out of her four claims).
 
 
Ticker
18:22 / 19.10.06
while reading the bbc link I found this one on sport and scarf.

I had a few strong reactions, the first was sorrow about the state of women's sports in general getting secondary to no support. My second was how hard it must be to then have these restrictions for conditions to do something you love, and then finally the lack of women's spaces.

Rather than force my reaction of 'hiding away' on these women I'd rather support their need for an all female space. If I for a moment I imagine a world where not wearing the veil/hijab is not punished (no tales of beatings or acid or rape) and is truly just a personal choice I can then imagine a world where an all female space devoid of cameras is a sacred space not a sanctuary from 'out there' but a sharing of within.
 
 
Not in the Face
09:20 / 20.10.06
this ruling seems as muddled as what we've been told of the case

Possibly because it was decided by an Employment Tribunal and not the courts. Tribunals have less scope to interpret the law, although they often do, and are much more interested in seeing whether the law has been followed. In this case presumably the Council succeeded in its case of saying that a requisite part of the job was face-face communication and that this could not be changed for religous reasons.

However its wouldn't surprise me if the education authority went about this in a completely inappropriate way which is which could be why she won the victimisation case. Victimisation is clearly identified within the Employment Equality Regulations. What I can't figure out is why she hasn't bought a case of unfair dismissal but presumably that was on the advice she received who probably anticipated the long game
 
 
Not in the Face
10:25 / 20.10.06
Just to clarify the above, what I meant is that the Tribunal probably recognised that this would be appealed one way or the other and go to court and so its likely they took a straight foward reading of the law and went with that in the expectation that the courts would then make the decision as to hopw this specific situation fit within the law.
 
 
Ticker
17:35 / 20.10.06
I had a thought last night about how so many people are up in arms over women being pressed into covering themselves when men are not subject to the same restrictions. I know other people elsewhere have framed this better but it irks me that people in my culture are using the scarf and veil as signs of otherness when we have the same behavior in our own backyard.

for example in my uptight town men can and often do go outside in the hot months without shirts on. They can wander the streets and sit in parks but cannot go into eateries or many stores. However a woman or even a very young girl is never allowed to go in public topless without being arrested.

We sexualize the breast and another culture sexualizes the hair, neck, and sometimes face. We restrict the breast so much in its sexual manifestation that nursing mothers are not comfortable breast feeding in public. Yet we're getting all finger pointy at the backwards traditions of other people?

We say, it's just hair or the neck or the face, but other people might very well say to us it's just the breast. Yet the sight of a woman nursing openly can and does often upset onlookers in my town.

so I'd say if you're outraged about the veil you should look a little closer to home about what is sexualized and banned from public view. I wouldn't feel comfortable going out of my house topless why should I ask another woman to go without her veil?

Ideally we should all feel great about being naked in public and not be afraid of abuse but that isn't the current form the world takes. If someone told me I had to go out of the house topless or not at all I'm sure there would be many days I'd stay in rather than deal with the weirdness.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
17:58 / 22.10.06
There's some really interesting discussion about this issue relating it to disability and other oppressions here (i really should get round to starting that disability theory thread)...

More (hopefully including replies to some earlier posts) later...
 
 
Quantum
18:14 / 22.10.06
Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, says divisions created by the recent row about Muslim women wearing the veil risk becoming “the trigger for the grim spiral that produced riots in the north of England five years ago. Only this time the conflict could be much worse”.

In an interview with British Broadcasting Corp. television, he said he didn't want Britain to suffer the kind of violence that exploded in the deprived suburbs of Paris a year ago, when disaffected young people, many from immigrant backgrounds, rioted for three weeks.

Scaremongering or has the row got out of control?
 
 
StarWhisper
12:47 / 23.10.06
The row has got out of control due to scaremongering.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:52 / 23.10.06
Quite. I think the way the argument is being conducted is appalling- "BAN THEM" was the Daily Express headline the other day. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, I think the media is being needlessly combative and almost trying to force an "us v them" situation. Which can't help anyone, really.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:55 / 23.10.06
(Interestingly, at work the other night a friend was wondering just how low the tabloids'd stoop on this one. "I bet they have a page 3 girl and get her to wear a veil for a day. And I bet she makes some comment about how she gets more attention than she ever did doing topless photoshoots". He hadn't read the previous day's Sun-or possibly Star, I forget- at this point- I found it in the archive and it was pretty much word-for-word. He was gobsmacked).
 
 
Ticker
18:43 / 23.10.06
Er, I'm not really sure where to voice this but I spent the weekend thinking about the veil and finally (I'm slow sometimes) I realized it bothers me that it assumes only the male viewer may be prone to sexual thoughts about females.

On one hand I believe it is vital to allow people to choose what they wear/ don't wear. On the other hand in my musings it bothered me that all of the supposed arousal would just be inspired in males.

I don't really intend to be a poster child for leering, mind you, but I look at other females sexually. Feels weird that I would be able to get around the veil and yet a homosexual male, who might not view any females that way, would not.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
19:48 / 23.10.06
We sexualize the breast and another culture sexualizes the hair, neck, and sometimes face

I'm not sure that Islamic culture sexualizes the female face/neck/hair in the same way as breasts/buttocks/sexual organs are sexualized by a great many cultures around the world. The Burqua or the combination of niqab (face covering), hijab (headscarf) and jibab (robe) worn by Aisah Azmi (and Keeley Hazell for the Sun article mentioned by Stoatie above) cover up the whole body, not just certain sexualized parts.

Speaking of miss Hazell's Sun article, it offers a fairly interesting perspective (for a Sun article written by a topless model) on what it's like to wear 'teh veil'. Most of the article describes how difficult it is to wear: she finds it difficult to breathe comfortably, she feels 'more exposed...and (is) definitely getting more attention than if (she) had stepped out naked', she finds it near impossible to drive safely and to pick up items at the supermarket. She also finds that not being able to smile politely at a man who held a door open for her makes her feel 'rude' and that it is impossible to drink a milkshake in public while remaining covered. This may seem like a minor point but consider how much social capital one must lose by not being able to eat and drink in public- anyone wearing it would obviously also follow the Koranic prohibition against drinking alcohol so not being able to go out drinking would be a moot point, but what about business lunches, going to a resturant with friends or a partner, eating popcorn whilst watching a film and a whole host of things denied to Muslim women but which Muslim men are allowed? This ties in with the idea of 'integration'- not to some monolithic 'British Culture' but to people of many cultures who integrate with each other- become friends in other words- by
She concludes by saying: "Overall I think it would be a terrible way to live...No doubt there are people who might try to argue that taking off my clothes for topless photographs is as much pandering to what men want as a Muslim woman putting on a niqab (note the assumption she makes here). But now I've had both experiences I can honestly say that my way of life feels more free and empowering"
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
20:34 / 23.10.06
[threadrot]Before I read this thread I thought this subject was all about the subjugation of women. Now I'm rightly confused. Thanks for the food for thought.[/threadrot]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:31 / 23.10.06
I don't really intend to be a poster child for leering, mind you, but I look at other females sexually. Feels weird that I would be able to get around the veil and yet a homosexual male, who might not view any females that way, would not.

This is true, of course, but couldn't the same be said of the changing rooms at the YWCA? The threatening gaze is often assumed to break along heterosexual lines...
 
 
Slate
23:45 / 26.10.06
Does anyone know of a passage in the Quran in which women are told that if they expose their faces to men, they will be raped by them?

Maybe This guy knows what part of the Koran it is? I see plans are being made to deport this Mufti, maybe back to Lebanon?

Sheikh Taj el-Din Al Hilaly reportedly compared women to uncovered meat.

Do Muslim men find uncovered meat sexually exciting? Mis interpretations aside, I would like to know what he means exactly by protecting womens honor?

It's as if the Muslim Clerics don't trust their own congregation, they don't trust the male basal instincts when it comes to self control? Is it a matter of trust or something else? These statements, looked at any way you like, points to the fact that Men can't control themselves sexually when women are dressed like "uncovered meat". I wish I could find a full transcript of the sermon but can't sorry.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:17 / 27.10.06
It's as if the Muslim Clerics don't trust their own congregation, they don't trust the male basal instincts when it comes to self control?

Forgive me, but did we just slide from a Muslim cleric to "Muslin clerics" there? Or have other Muslim clerics echoed these views, which are, apology notwithstanding, very shitty indeed. Having said which, I'm not sure the non-Muslim world is unable to throw up a couple of people who might say that provocativey-dressed women are asking for it, and that would not necessarily be reflected in their holy books.
 
 
Slate
06:24 / 27.10.06
No, I think you can include Clerics as plural here. Is there a difference though if I meant singular or plural? I thought, and am pretty sure, this would have been, or is, a common teaching amongst Imams, that being, women not covered invite rape from men.

In his defense I guess he may have been quoted out of context as said by his daughter but these are strong unambiguous statements;

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat," the sheik asked.

"The uncovered meat is the problem."


I have a problem with these words. It reduces all men to the lowest common denominator devoid of will, self control and at the same time full of lust with no thoughts of consequences.

Ultimately it is up to the individual to wear the covering, call it pragmatism to prove a point, but when dealing with religion, any religion, I don't think there is an end point in reaching an answer.

Also Haus, you raise a good point with this:

I'm not sure the non-Muslim world is unable to throw up a couple of people who might say that provocatively-dressed women are asking for it, and that would not necessarily be reflected in their holy books.

It reminds me of a few years ago where a couple of old judges here in Australia in the past who have drawn sharp criticism on themselves in rape cases by not posting the maximum sentence to the perp, due to the way the women who was raped, was dressed. I can't find details about this but they are out there.

I know these are very different scenario's and is going off topic slightly but they both refer to womens subjugation due to men's apparent weakness of women who are uncovered.

I am still trying to come to grips with the fact Britain is not as secular as I thought... What a shock to my system that was.
 
  

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