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Thinly veiled

 
  

Page: (1)2345

 
 
JOY NO WRY
12:42 / 09.10.06
Commentry here and here.

So is this an ill educated or intentionally inflammatory move on Straw's part or does he actually have a point? Can visible symbols of personal belief be considered inherently unhelpful, or does this question warrent a different answer in the context of the current atmosphere of Islamophobia?
 
 
Quantum
12:57 / 09.10.06
I vote intentionally inflammatory move on Straw's part. Hasn't he got an eye on his career, recently got smarter clothes and contact lenses etc? He wants the attention.
 
 
Quantum
13:03 / 09.10.06
Here's a great comment I noticed;

'I wonder what the response would have been if Straw, a British cabinet minister, had said, "I'd like to request that any black people who come to my office cover up as much of their dark skin as possible; it really makes me uncomfortable to have such a visible reminder of our differences.'

And an extract from the Grauniad on visiting a convent;

No one accused these nuns of "rejecting the values of liberal democracy" - yet they were co-religionists of the IRA terrorists of their time.
 
 
Quantum
13:32 / 09.10.06
Sorry for the triple post, this quote from Al-Jazeerah made me laugh;

If facial contact is that important, then he should have advised his blind colleague David Blunkett to resign!
 
 
Olulabelle
14:03 / 09.10.06
There's some interesting stuff in the multicultural thread abouty this.

I wonder if we should try and transfer it to this thread?
 
 
Quantum
14:58 / 09.10.06
From here onwards for reference. I'll stop spamming this thread now.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:22 / 09.10.06
I didn't see much wrong in his original statement, that he asks Muslim women to take of the veil in his surgeries and has women there to make sure he does nothing inappropriate. His second statement, that he thinks Muslim women should drop the veil is a bit more problematic, as it seems he hasn't particularly thought it out well, but unsurprisingly, it's been well received by racists like Melanie Phillips.
 
 
Supersister
16:39 / 09.10.06
I am very puzzled by the timing of this, especially since it was immediately followed by stories about a Muslim cabbie who refused to allow a guide dog into his cab and then today the story about the terrorist who evaded capture for several days by cleverly hiding under a veil. It is conveniently burying the story of the innocent Algerian pilot with absolutely no connection to any terrorists whatsoever who was detained for 5 months under Prevention of Tourism laws because of an address book, but that doesn't seem enough. Who was surprised in the slightest to hear about the worried citizen in Manchester who ripped the veil from a woman yesterday? This Government and their media buddies seem determined to whip up mistrust and maybe even civil unrest and I for one, and for once, am utterly confused as to why.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:52 / 09.10.06
Yeah, today's been a bit of a field day for the papers- the Times with the al-Qaeda guy using the veil to evade capture and the Sun with their reporter who didn't get checked at airport security while wearing it.

To be honest, I don't think they were "trying to achieve" anything with this. I think it was a bad bit of timing on Straw's part, which various other members of the government seem keen to distance themseves from. It's pretty bad, either way- I don't think Straw's a racist (I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, but I'd trust him more than most of the rest of the government)- this seems uncharacteristically insensitive.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:55 / 09.10.06
Oh, and Supersister, did you see the story on (I think) Saturday in (I think) the Sun, about Muslims who'd attacked the home of a Gulf war vet? BIG headline, front page. At the very end of the article, it transpires nobody knows who sprayed "fuck off" on his driveway, let alone whether they were Muslims or not.

I read newspapers for a living, and the last few days have seen everything get a LOT uglier than it was up to now.
 
 
Olulabelle
17:53 / 09.10.06
I just saw the Sun reporter wearing the veil story when I looked at the newspapers at the shops. I agree that it's pretty outrageous coverage at the moment.

This way for the Children of Men scenario, hey?
 
 
redtara
20:23 / 09.10.06
OK must admit to a gut reaction of 'here we go, like we need one more man telling women what they should and shouldn't be up to.' i read an article in the Indie this morning by Yasmin Alabhai-Brown and I feel a bit muddled now. Didn't know much of the veil history and I'm still not sure it is entirely relevant. I think, as well, there is more to the sybolism of the veil than Yasmin outlines, I think those women who choose to wear it might be able to expand on that point.

Anyway, a bit of Yasmin:-

This garment offends me, and here are my reasons why.

The sacred texts have no specific injunctions about covering the hair or face. The veil predates Islam and was common among the Assyrian royalty, Byzantine upper-class Christians, and Bedouins - men and women- when sandstorms blasted their faces. Women from the Prophet's family covered themselves, it is said, to prevent harassment from petitioners. The son of Umar, a companion to Prophet Mohamed, asked his wife to veil her face. She replied: "Since the almighty has put upon me the stamp of beauty, it is my wish that the public should view this beauty and recognise this Grace unto them." Nice one, lady, and my views exactly.

In the 10th century, veils were imposed across the Middle East to diminish the status of women. Female chastity and "honour" became jealously guarded. The customs never spread far. You don't find the niqab in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia or Thailand. A witness account in Turkey in the 14th century noted that women's faces there were always visible. In 1899, a Muslim writer, Quasim Amin, wrote a treatise, "The Emancipation of Woman", in which he proved that the veil was not an inviolable part of revealed Islam. His ideas incensed conformist Muslim women, who attacked his gender, not his arguments, just as now. He inspired secularists like Ataturk in Turkey and the Shah of Iran who, too dictatorially, forbade the veil.

The Iranian revolution turned that into a cause, and the modern re-covering of women, voluntary and imposed, took off. In Iran, educated women who fail stringent veil tests are imprisoned by their theocratic oppressors. They are branded whores and beaten. It is happening in Iraq, Palestine and Algeria too. In Afghanistan, the Taliban are back pushing girls and women back into the home and full burqa. Instead of expressing solidarity with these females, sanctimonious British niqabis are siding with their foes.

Exiles from these regimes who fled to the West now find the evil has followed them. As Saba, a lawyer from Saudi Arabia, said to me: "The Koran does not ask us to bury ourselves. We must be modest. These fools who are taking niqab will one day suffocate like I did, but they will not be allowed to leave the coffin. They are choosing something they don't even understand."

The sexual signals of the hijab and niqab are even more suspect. These coverings are physical manifestations of the pernicious idea of women as carriers of Original Sin, whose faces or hair turn Muslim men into predators. In Denmark, a mufti said unveiled women asked for rape. As if to order, rape by Muslim men of white women is rising alarmingly. In truth, half-naked women and veiled women are both solely defined by sexuality. One group proffers it, the other withholds it. A young girl in a boob tube and a young girl in a hijab are both symbols of unhealthy sexual objectification. Western culture is wildly sexualised and lacking in restraint, but there are ways to avoid falling into that pit, and the veil is not one of them

The niqab expunges the female Muslim presence from the landscape and hands the world over to men. It rejects human commonalities and even the membership of society itself. The women can observe their fellow citizens but remain unseen, like CCTV cameras. They dehumanise themselves and us.

There are practical issues too. I have seen appallingly beaten Muslim women forced into the niqab to keep their wounds hidden. Veiled women cannot swim in the sea, smile at their babies in parks, feel the sun on their skin.
Women can wear what they want in their homes and streets, but there are societal dress codes. Public and private institutions should have the right to ask citizens to show their faces to get goods and services. Hoodies and crash-helmet wearers already have to. Why should niqab wearers be exempt?
 
 
*
04:12 / 10.10.06
What I object to about Jack Straw's comment is the sense of entitlement. He feels he has the right to subject particular women to his gaze, when it is evidently not their wish to be looked at in that way. He can't feel adequately in control of the conversation if he can't look at them in the way he's used to being able to do. But it's precisely this looking that women who prefer to wear veils object to, and in my opinion if they're uncomfortable being looked at in that way they have the right to cover their faces.

Talking to someone who is veiled can be uncomfortable for people who are unused to it. It makes me feel as if I don't have control over the conversation in the way that I'm used to. If I can't see part of someone's facial expressions, it makes it more obvious and likely that they have information about their internal states that I lack. If I'm in a position of authority, I might be tempted to order them to take off the veil to reestablish control. And I think succumbing to that temptation would be wrong. As someone already in a position of power, it would be even more important for me to avoid taking control in that way. In this case the veil might be an equalizer.

Does Jack Straw ask everyone who phones his office to come in and talk to him face to face? If not, his justification is somewhat suspect.
 
 
Olulabelle
07:36 / 10.10.06
I don't know. Jack Straw may be a politician but he is not a stupid man. He not only said a really contentious thing, but he wrote it down. He said that he's thought long and hard before saying it and I don't believe he's just saying it because he thinks he has the right to view the faces of the women he meets and because it makes him feel uncomfortable not to.

I think he said it because he wanted to address the wider issue of segregation, and he was using the face to face communication bit as a personal example. Unfortunately that example has back-fired and now that's all anyone is talking about.

But I think his motives were probably good, I think he really is worried about it because of the increasing racial divide in the area he stands. You don't say things like that when you are MP for Blackburn unless you're sure that you have a reason relevant to the local population.

Redtara, thanks for posting that. Was there anymore nad if so can you link me to the rest? The bit you posted was really interesting.
 
 
Olulabelle
08:04 / 10.10.06
I've ben reading about niqab and I found some really interesting articles here written by a woman who has recently started to wear niqab.
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:54 / 10.10.06
in my opinion if they're uncomfortable being looked at in that way they have the right to cover their faces.

If I'm in a position of authority, I might be tempted to order them to take off the veil to reestablish control. - id

But Jack Straw affirms the right to wear a veil, and states that he requests rather than orders them to remove it. Now, clearly, they may well feel pressured into complying but I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the respect for culture and religion should go so far that one cannot even make polite requests about behaviour (I'm intending to write a lot more about this soon). At this stage, I think one could argue that respect has morphed into an othering in which negotiation is impossible.

Personally, I think his remarks were unfortunate given the media attitudes towards muslims, but I think it is worth bearing in mind that though the right have run with it, the article itself did not make broad civilisation clashing claims.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:57 / 10.10.06
I think Jack said this because he wants to mount a leadership challenge and is hoping to stake out the Islamophobe vote. It ticks me off to no end.

On the one hand, I am getting uncomfortable with the level of (self) censorship revolving around Islam. I pitched for a job recently and we touched on the subject, and the Producer just shrugged and said he'd rather not go near Islam because last time it featured in a show he did, he spent six months getting death threats and informing the police of his movements every twenty four hours. I don't blame him for not feeling the urge to go through it again. I do think that institutions and governmental bodies need to clear a space for speech and debate, even if that means offending people.

On the other... I don't see where Jack gets off here making this 'request'. It can only be seen as insensitive and offensive. He must have known that going in. I tend to think: defend the right of my putative boss to make TV shows which feature (sympathetic, as it happens) Islamic characters, and defend the right of Muslim women to wear the veil if they want to. The whole question, I tend to think, comes down to an Anglo-Saxon concern that this is not a voluntary action, but rather an imposed one. Where that gets sticky, of course, is when we start saying 'if only they knew that they didn't have to do it, they wouldn't do it'... in other words 'if only they were more like us...'
 
 
Quantum
10:40 / 10.10.06
I agree with Nick that Straw's motive is political. I don't have much problem with him requesting that women show their faces in his surgery (although, a 'request' from someone in power can have more weight than a request from you or me) but to go on and say that muslim women shouldn't wear the veil is deliberately courting controversy. I wouldn't say he was necessarily staking out the Islamophobe vote but he definitely wanted more media attention.
Why might he do that? Leadership challenge. His image used to be affable but boring, pretty much the Labour John Major, and now he seems to be spinning himself into a sexier beast.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
11:44 / 10.10.06
Oh for fuck's sake. I was agreeing with everything Yasmin Alibhai-Brown was saying, until the very last bit:

Public and private institutions should have the right to ask citizens to show their faces to get goods and services. Hoodies and crash-helmet wearers already have to. Why should niqab wearers be exempt?

No, "public and private institutions" (whatever the hell those are, anyway) shouldn't have the right to ask anyone to show their faces to recieve goods and services. What fucking business is it of theirs anyway? I fail to see any connection at all with shoplifting etc - powers to stop and search anyone suspected of a crime already exist. What if (for example) a person who percieves their face to be "disfigured" (either through actual physical condition or something like Body Dismorphic Disorder) only feels enabled/empowered to leave the house if they cover their face, but is absolutely fine if they are allowed to do so? To require them to uncover their face "to recieve goods and services" would essentially be to sentence them to confinement in their own home, and if a person has the really strong religious belief that it's morally wrong not to cover their face (not saying all veiled Muslim women do feel this, btw), however misguided, then, to me, that's basically exactly the same thing...

That aside, i think the basic libertarian position here is pretty fucking simple - people should be allowed to wear what the fuck they like, but no one should be forced to wear anything, and Alibhai-Brown's points about the veil as a cover-up for domestic abuse, promotion of fucked up ideas about "asking for it" etc are extremely good points.

Anecdote time - the other day, i was in the back of a car on my way to a party, driving through a predominantly Muslim area of Birmingham, and very nearly ran over (the driver had to brake extremely suddenly, and was very shocked) a young girl (she couldn't have been more than about 8) who half stepped, half fell into the road - both the girl and her mother were wearing the full veil, with no more than a 1cm or so wide slit to see through, and the girl was obviously totally unaware that a car was there at all (bear in mind, this was a zebra-striped Citroen 2CV, possibly the hardest-to-miss-seeing car in Birmingham). I don't think a girl of that age chose to wear the veil, and IMO forcing a 7/8 yr old child to wear something that essentially means she has no peripheral vision and thus can't see a car that's seconds away from running her over is pretty fucked up (IIRC they're not supposed to have to wear it until puberty, anyway)...

Pretty much agreed with what Nick and Lurid Archive said, too...

IIRC doesn't France ban public wearing of all symbols of religious belief (presumably a throwback to the anti-clericalism of the French Revolution)? Tho i don't know how exactly (if at all) they enforce that, and having seen La Haine and read a fair bit about Algeria, i'm sure that in reality it probably has a lot more to do with racism...

Id:

Talking to someone who is veiled can be uncomfortable for people who are unused to it. It makes me feel as if I don't have control over the conversation in the way that I'm used to. If I can't see part of someone's facial expressions, it makes it more obvious and likely that they have information about their internal states that I lack.

Very interesting point. Makes me wonder if the reason it doesn't bother me (apart from a slight nagging impulse to think that the person i'm talking to isn't, or may not be, making a free choice about how to live her own life) is because, for disability reasons, i don't have that information anyway...
 
 
Quantum
13:42 / 10.10.06
Quick aside- the veil comments could be worse. Here's Bush's version of a similar desire for face-to-face exchange;

President Bush: Peter. Are you going to ask that question with shades on?
Peter Wallsten of the Los Angeles Times: I can take them off.
Bush: I'm interested in the shade look, seriously.
Wallsten: All right, I'll keep it, then.
Bush: For the viewers, there's no sun.
Wallsten: I guess it depends on your perspective.
Bush: Touché.


—Exchange with legally blind reporter Peter Wallsten, to whom Bush later apologized, Washington, D.C., June 14, 2006
 
 
bjacques
21:42 / 10.10.06
A Muslim woman just can't catch a break from either side. Her body, or even face, is the field on which tribal honor--with a Muslim veneer--is settled. Veiled, she is sacred, but uncovered she is any man's prey, and it's her fault for not dressing modestly. Her person is also the field of state honor, from the other direction. The French (and pre-revolutionary Iranian) headscarf law and Clash of Civilization types demand that women prove the "moderation" of Islam by going bareheaded. The French law is supposed to apply to Jews and Sikhs, but it's Muslim women who bear the brunt, putting them in an impossible position between their male relatives and the state. Turkey did this a few years ago and, like France and now Jack Straw, made traditionalists the new revolutionaries.

Another victory for misapplied secularism, with bonus points for a veneer of feminism.
 
 
Tom Coates
00:06 / 11.10.06
The veil is something that I've always found very troubling for a range of reasons, from the assumption of imposition of patriarchy and control of women through to the old concepts of false consciousness and the simple fact that many Muslim women who wear the veil would argue for its defence. I don't know where to stand - I know that I don't approve of cliterodectomy and yet they're performed by women on women. I'd try and argue with the people concerned and persuade them not to do it, but in the end if it's something they really want to do, then I don't know that it's up to me to push and push until they finally give in. Doing things for 'their own good' seems to me to cause a hell of a lot of trouble - and I say this as I see around me gay men co-opting all the constraining stereotypes of homosexuality from interior design to body fascism with apparently no sense that they're performing a pet-like role for a straight culture that's apparently tolerant only of emasculated, trivial and harmless little fags.

Having said all of that, if I was in contact with a lot of veil-wearing women on a daily basis, I don't doubt that I would try and persuade them not to wear these garments, although I would politely back off if I felt I'd stepped on a territory that was sensitive or if I were causing offence. I don't have any problem with an MP or a Doctor or - in fact - pretty much anyone with whom you would expect to have a private one on one interview or discussion asking if you'd be comfortable removing the veil. It clearly does have an impact on conversation, makes it hard to tell if you've delighted or offended the person concerned, puts you at a disadvantage and makes it significantly harder to draw a memorable mental picture of them. I would consider it polite to try and put the person you're talking to at ease, but this flows both ways - I have no problem with a gentle query about the possibility, or its gentle rebuttal.

The larger debate about the veil in general I think is too hard to answer conclusively and will only move I think based on intra-community pressure - individuals closer to the issue who are both more sensitive to the cultural concerns but also (bluntly) less easy to characterise as clueless. But this one little section - whether it should be appropriate to ask if something was possible - I think is completely reasonable now.
 
 
*
02:34 / 11.10.06
As Natty points out, to assume that we should be able to tell how a person is feeling from their facial expressions is a form of privilege. It does make conversation easier for those of us who have it. As a person who has grown up in a society where veiling is rare I feel uncomfortable when I lose that privilege. But I try to remember that I'm not going to have it all the time. If someone doesn't want me to read their facial expressions, I think that's their choice, particularly if in other ways I'm in a position of power over them— whether through my race, my gender, my class, or my position of authority. And Jack Straw, having gone from making this request privately in his own office (is that what you mean by his "surgery"? dammit, Jim, he's a MP, not a surgeon! am I right?) to making a pronouncement in public about the veil in general and its function to divide people by highlighting difference, is using his position of authority to lend even more weight to his requests. The way I would handle this, I think, is to remark that I'm accustomed to relying on facial expressions for part of my communication, and I hope that if someone chooses to wear a veil when talking with me that she will have patience with any potential miscommunications that might arise from that tendency. And I would be very conscious of any assumptions I might want to make about the speaker's emotions based on tone or body language, because this is very culturally variable. But I wouldn't want to put the onus on someone over whom I already have power to place themselves in a position of even greater vulnerability, when I could instead make a little extra effort.

When I first saw this Jack Straw thing, I was pretty angry about it. Now I'm thinking about it as, well, a politician not really thinking/caring about the effects of his position of power. That's not new. It's still worth pointing out, but if it's not actually informing policy, it may not be worth wasting emotional energy on.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:34 / 11.10.06
As Natty points out, to assume that we should be able to tell how a person is feeling from their facial expressions is a form of privilege.

I'm not sure this makes sense, id. A politician wanting to be able to assess the case of a person coming to them for help makes a request to see their face in order to better communicate with them and aid recall. This is a form of privilege? I don't see it. (I mean, sure, he is in a position of power, but that is true regardless of what he does so can't constitute a specific criticism here.)

Sure, it makes conversation easier, but if you take this line of argument seriously, you end up imagining every interaction as "a form of privilege", which rather robs the concept of any content.

Also, a sincere question, is the following true?

And I would be very conscious of any assumptions I might want to make about the speaker's emotions based on tone or body language, because this is very culturally variable.

I thought that things like facial expression were surprisingly uniform across cultures.
 
 
Saturn's nod
11:05 / 11.10.06
What I object to about Jack Straw's comment is the sense of entitlement. He feels he has the right to subject particular women to his gaze, when it is evidently not their wish to be looked at in that way.

I'm interested in the choice of women to veil because I've often wished I had an invisibility spray in order to be able to leave the house without having to be subject to public gaze. I've wondered about wearing a full veil, and for most of my life have worn clothing that hides my body. For years I also wore a cap that hides my hair. I think it is probably difficult for people who have never felt threatened by being looked at to understand how heavy it can be.
 
 
SteppersFan
13:04 / 11.10.06
Obviously Straw is positioning himself as slightly more macho than he was before, but slightly less macho than John Reid. And it's an interesting triangulation. In and of itself it may offend people but it's easy to defend it - he only asks, he doesn't insist, it's up to the individuals. (I hear that yes, he does ask all-comers to show their faces). Furthermore, there's some "complicity" - muslim activists get a free pass to TV coverage, just as he soaks up the column inches. And he can easily roll back from this position later and seem statesmanlike. Kind of a win-win.

Meanwhile he's exploiting latent racism.

Having said that, I've talked to muslim women who claim to wear the niqab out of choice and as an assertion of identity. Clearly historically it was a part of (quite un-islamic) sexual repression, but that's not how all niqab wearers see it now. It's complicated.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:09 / 11.10.06
Furthermore, there's some "complicity" - muslim activists get a free pass to TV coverage, just as he soaks up the column inches.

Defending your culture = complicity with people attacking it? I hope I'm misreading you.
 
 
Ticker
13:40 / 11.10.06
I'm interested in the choice of women to veil because I've often wished I had an invisibility spray in order to be able to leave the house without having to be subject to public gaze. I've wondered about wearing a full veil, and for most of my life have worn clothing that hides my body. For years I also wore a cap that hides my hair. I think it is probably difficult for people who have never felt threatened by being looked at to understand how heavy it can be.

I've talked to a few women who took the veil to escape this gaze and while I respect their choice I often wonder if it intesifies the cause of the gaze rather than systemically reprogramming it.

To contrast in many cultures where nudity or partial nudity is acceptable the gaze doesn't seem to function this way. Where female breasts are commonly used to nourish children publicly there is less of a sexual response to seeing one. (I can go get links to back this up from breast feeding sites if you'd like)

there is a function of concealment that magnifies the importance of what is hidden.

If a person says to me that they veil to avoid being looked at in an uncomfortable way I find I'm motivated to want to change the way they are looked at. The veil should not function as a protective covering from either the threat of physical violence or invasive ogling. The responsibility of control should not be on the person being gazed upon for promoting a reaction but upon the person having a reaction. An adult in our society cannot justify any action or reaction based upon what another person was or was not wearing. Even offensive intentionally fight provoking clothing or nudity is not acceptable grounds for violence.

It maybe the sad state affairs that we are not at the level of maturity that naked people can walk unmolested through our streets. Yet that ideal should always be a goal of civilization, ethical self control to be internalized to such an extent that one could.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:52 / 11.10.06
Imperial College bans the niqab.

Although I'm not someone with unlimited cultural tolerance - there are boundaries, after all - I think this is a mistake. But I realise my position is a delicate one, since I suspect that students in the habit of wearing the niqab are possibly hurting their education. I just think that students have the right to do so, though I am aware that this isn't the most popular position in higher education.
 
 
SteppersFan
18:09 / 11.10.06
Legba:
Defending your culture = complicity with people attacking it? I hope I'm misreading you.

Yes, I think you're misreading me. By "complicity" I mean that Straw's comments do give muslim activists a platform on TV. I suspect this might be deliberate - a nudge-nudge, "complain at me but recognise you're getting something out of this as well as me" kind of message.

BTW I'm not sure I'd agree that Straw is "attacking" muslim culture - I think it's more that he's pandering to a certain degree to people who would like to attack muslim culture, without actually doing it himself. I mean, in and of itself, asking people to show their faces when talking to them isn't a heinous crime; it's actually quite a reasonable position to take. What's unsavoury and opportuinistic is the obvious making of political capital out of the prejiudice of others, even if Straw doesn't share that prejiudice, which I doubt he does.

TBH, I find the nuancing of Straw's position more interesting than the furore around it.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:56 / 11.10.06
There seems to be much more willingness to engage with the issue of Jack Straw wanting 'face to face' communication than there is regarding his comments about cultural separation. Why is that?
 
 
StarWhisper
20:13 / 11.10.06

I'm not too sure about the content of this article, appears to be blog; oddly enough they are the only images of Chalayans 1998 ready-to-wear collection I could find. It contains some visual and comentaries on the veil from a fashion designers perspective. Also reminds me of some work by Magritte.

Chalayan
 
 
*
22:00 / 11.10.06
I'm not sure this makes sense, id. A politician wanting to be able to assess the case of a person coming to them for help makes a request to see their face in order to better communicate with them and aid recall. This is a form of privilege? I don't see it. (I mean, sure, he is in a position of power, but that is true regardless of what he does so can't constitute a specific criticism here.)

Not everyone can read facial expressions and body language, just like not everyone can walk up stairs. If you can walk up stairs, you've got a privilege. That doesn't mean you're an evil bad oppressor, but if you're not conscious of the fact that not everybody has that same ability it can cause problems. I don't think it robs the word "privilege" of its meaning to recognize that people have privilege in places where we often don't think to see it. My point in highlighting this aspect is that if you have the ability to read facial expressions, there's nothing wrong with using it when you have the opportunity, but people aren't obligated to give you the opportunity. If I take my privileges for granted and then I'm thrown off when they go away temporarily because of someone else exercising their rights— like their right to wear a veil— it's not their fault for exercising their rights, it's my fault for taking my privileges for granted so much that I feel like I can't function without them. It would be a different thing if someone were kneecapping Jack Straw to take away his privilege to walk up stairs, but women wearing veils aren't doing anything of the sort to him. It's natural that he would feel a little off balance, and I don't blame him for making the request, but I would rather see him take the burden on himself to deal with it; it would make me feel more respect for him.

As for facial expressions— there's evidence on both sides, actually, so I'll partially retract that. Some facial expressions seem to be fairly cross-cultural (setting aside other differences), and some seem to be more culturally mediated. I suspect that many of the Muslim women with whom Straw is dealing are actually pretty immersed in white, non-Muslim Brit culture, so there is not necessarily going to be a huge difference in facial expressions due to culture alone. Sorry. Off-hand comment, not thoroughly thought-out.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:46 / 12.10.06
If you can walk up stairs, you've got a privilege. That doesn't mean you're an evil bad oppressor, but if you're not conscious of the fact that not everybody has that same ability it can cause problems. - id

I guess we disagree on this basic usage, since to see every act as one involving privilege (there is always someone worse off, after all) robs the concept of content for me, to a large extent. Since one doesn't highlight every act of privilege, yet justifies any mentioning of it in this kind of universal way, I can't help wonder if there is a kind of equivocation going on.

More relevantly, it just doesn't seem pertinent to the situation. That is, if one person is trying to aid another, then seeing this aid as an expression of privilege is decidedly odd. And I note that your proposed course of action, id, differs from Jack Straw's only in emphasis, really, and so doesn't actually seem like a huge criticism. His point is that he can be of more help to someone with whom he can communicate more fully, and recognise beyond a name on a form and a veiled figure. That seems at least plausible to me, and has very little to do with an exercise of privilege.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:24 / 12.10.06
Okay, let me get this straight. It's okay for women to wear the veil to stop men from getting all sexed up because that's female responsibility but it's not a rapists fault that he rapes a woman in a short skirt? In my brain the veil is logically inconsistent with other women's issues because the veil is for men. I can't find a way to right that and that's why I can't bring myself to agree with Id though perhaps I could be brought round... I really need this to be addressed at some point because I can't straighten it out in my head.

That doesn't necessarily mean I'm for the banning of the veil. Is the best way to stop people from oppressing themselves to ban an action? Hasidic women aren't banned from wearing wigs!
 
  

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