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Underground > Conversation >

Nick Nack Paddywhack revisited (nonsense rhyme)

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01:14 / 11.08.06

oboy

04:39 / 11.08.06

Damn I'm gifted

Well that's one way of looking at it, I suppose.

Realistically though, you, Mr b, are by any reasonable objective (not subjective, objective) standard, a silly young man.

04:50 / 11.08.06

nitpicking limeys arguing with nitpicking potato eaters over nursery rhymes

Good Lord! What - I say - what? Is that really necessary?

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:33 / 11.08.06

I think bacon's being sponsored to show lamentable ignorance of as many subjects as possible in the shortest possible time. It's going pretty well, so far.

miss wonderstarr

06:57 / 11.08.06

Actually, I remembered something that inclines me to support PW, who is perhaps not being overly paranoid.

During the (?) late 1970s and early 1980s, Krazy comic (?) had a strip called "Paddy Whack" about a comedy Irishman with a big nose and dark curly hair. This was a three-frame gag strip along the lines of

Paddy at football: What's the score?

Fan: Nil-nil.

Paddy: What was the score at half-time then?

As you can see, I don't remember the dates or whether this was Krazy or Whizzer & Chips (they all merged anyway) but here's an example of the innocent term Paddywhack being appropriated for Irishmen-are-stupid humour.

It may be the only example, of course.* But just as I don't know whether "don't get into a paddy" means "don't behave like an Irishman", I'd be prepared to believe it could cause offence. "P*ki", as we all know, has the innocent meaning of "pure", but it's acquired racist meanings by being used as an insult.

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:20 / 11.08.06

Hmmm. I know that the fact that we are clever, sensitive people means that we can use any hate speech we want without any negative consequences, but I think that we get to look even more clever and sensitive if we find ways not to use the hate speech in the first place.

miss wonderstarr

07:28 / 11.08.06

Do you mean I shouldn't have used a racist slur ("P*ki") in my post above, Haus? If so, I will ask for it to be edited out. I feel it's a grey area when one uses racial slurs in quotation marks ~ I'd often asterisk a letter out, but I wonder if that makes much difference apart from saying "we know what this word is, but I'm distancing myself from it."

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:15 / 11.08.06

Oh, sure, it's an ongoing discussion. I'm just a little uncomfortable that in a discussion over whether the word "paddywhack" is offensive, terms that we know are offensive are being used.

Interesting Krazy/Whizzer and Chips reference, though - thanks. Hooever, isn't it the portrayal there that's offensive, rather than the name - that is, if the strip had been called "Patrick Gilhooley - the credulous fool, he" it would still have been playing on offensive stereotypes of the Irish. PW's contention was specifically that the word referenced violence against the Irish, Cromwellian in origin or otherwise, which is where I'm having etymological problems.

miss wonderstarr

08:24 / 11.08.06

I agree that the term may well be historically innocent ~ until the late 1970s!!1 It's possible that during the period when many of us were at school, "Paddy Whack" could have become more common as a term meaning "stupid Irish", because of its use in popular comics (or perhaps just one popular comic, but it still could conceivably have spread from there), explaining perhaps why some people would have experienced it as an insult or taunt.

"You Joey", as a possible parallel, would have no offensive meaning to many people, but to anyone who watched Blue Peter during a certain period, it's a well-known insult meaning "you're stupid", equivalent to "you spastic" (again ~ sorry to use the word) based on a cultural knowledge of Joey Deacon, the TV personality who had cerebral palsy.

There seems no point starring down "sp*stic" somehow, even though it's an ugly term, but I will do it with my post above.

08:42 / 11.08.06

Is there an ongoing discussion about the merits of asterisking offensive terms? Can anyone point me to it? I’ve never been quite clear on the rationale behind it (unless you obscure the whole word), so I’d like to catch up.

miss wonderstarr

08:46 / 11.08.06

I don't know about an ongoing discussion on here though I assume there's a broader discussion in that people who want to refer to those racial slurs in a way that doesn't cause offence haven't reached any firm agreement.

Personally as I noted, I'd tend to write "n*gger" if I was referring to that word, because (a) it feels like I'm distancing myself a bit from the actual word (shame there's no equivalent when you say it aloud) and (b) I could understand that a black person might feel the same (anger, upset, annoyance) at encountering the full word on a discussion board whether or not I'm just quoting it as something other people might say but not me.

08:51 / 11.08.06

But why do you think they would they be less offended to see word 'n*gger'?

miss wonderstarr

08:54 / 11.08.06

I do think that, but I could be wrong. I think "n*gger" makes it clear what word you mean, but might not carry the same immediate... trigger. I'd be interested in other opinions.

miss wonderstarr

08:57 / 11.08.06

Maybe it should be starred out to "n****r" (had to count the stars there... difficult) or, as I would usually say in real life, "the n-word" (in the US, apparently, some people use "the N-BOMB", cf. "the f-bomb" for "fuck").

08:59 / 11.08.06

I always thought the rationale behind not typing the full insult is racists googling those terms and finding Barbelith.

And for saying out loud: what about "the n-word"?

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:01 / 11.08.06

Shall we ask?

miss wonderstarr

09:04 / 11.08.06

It seems like an interesting discussion to me: though I feel like I'm in the embarrassing liberal position of wanting to say brightly "hello, are there any black people here who could tell me what you think

" With the proviso that I don't know whether anyone else posting on this thread identifies as white or black.

As was suggested on another, earlier thread about racial slurs, though, there's a limit to what understanding you can achieve by talking about it with other well-meaning white folks on your own.

09:07 / 11.08.06

But why do you think they would they be less offended to see word 'n*gger'?

Because by adding an asterix you have made a tacit nod in the direction of saying "I don't like this word and if I have to use it, I won't attribute the full power of it's written self".

Now that may be offensively patronising but I find it preferable to just writing the full word, where it could possibly be misconstrued.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:23 / 11.08.06

Sorry, hit send too early. What I meant was, we could check or behaviour in terms of the impact it has on people, right? For example, I originally had the discussion when I put two derogatory terms for people of South East Asian and South Asian origin in the summary of a thread. Interestingly, I thought that we had starred them out retroactively, but it looks like we didn't. Or possibly we did, then changed them back - there's a reference in the thread to the changing of a title, but it's unclear and my memory appears to have a blank on this one...

09:25 / 11.08.06

Because by adding an asterix you have made a tacit nod in the direction of saying "I don't like this word and if I have to use it, I won't attribute the full power of it's written self".

Well, I don’t have a fully formed opinion on this, but shouldn’t the context do that? Inverted commas should make it clear that you are quoting the word rather than using the word. (How do other publications deal with this? Anyone got some House Style guides to hand?)

I suppose the problem I have with the one letter asterisk is that it depends on the word still being readable. To put it another way, how do you pronounce ‘n*gger’ when you read it in your head? Doesn’t it ‘trigger’ exactly the same thing?

miss wonderstarr

09:29 / 11.08.06

how do you pronounce ‘n*gger’ when you read it in your head? Doesn’t it ‘trigger’ exactly the same thing?

This is just me, but I read "n*gger" and subvocalise something like "n-" (gulp/gap) "-gger" as if the asterisk creates a blank, like a drop-out on a tape. It's a good question of course: how do people read the word "n****r", is that any different?

09:38 / 11.08.06

Personally, ‘n*gger’ and ‘n****r’ both fall into the category of misspellings. My brane just works out what is meant and translates. They’re really much on a par with niggger or niggar.

miss wonderstarr

09:40 / 11.08.06

Then I'd suggest "the n-word" is preferable, though it sounds a little bit coy to me (maybe we should be "coy" about typing racial slurs though).

However, in my post above I actually considered writing "the P-word" but had to recognise that it was likely nobody would know which word I meant. Similarly "the c-word" doesn't usually signify the racial slur for "Chinese", and "the s-word" wouldn't mean "spastic".

09:52 / 11.08.06

Well, I don’t have a fully formed opinion on this, but shouldn’t the context do that?

It should, but context isn't always properly relayed, particularly when doing Teh 1ron33z.

10:34 / 11.08.06

Well, I think that if you’re going to use a word like that, you should probably exert a little extra effort to take care of that sort of thing. One of the things that worries me about the asterisk as it seems like a bit of a get-out-of-jail-free card to use the word carelessly. I kinda think that if you really need to use the word, you should use the word. I don’t see how a variant spelling absolves you of any responsibilities surrounding that use.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:01 / 11.08.06

That's a good point (although we're KILLING THIS THREAD). On the other hand, I'm not sure it's just about how we feel when using it. By which I mean I am sure that it isn't. Case in point. One member of Barbelith, whom I did not know was of SE Asian descent, drew my attention to the fact that, whereas seeing racist terms used to describe South East Asians on Barbelith made me feel very angry, it did not have the same effect on me as it did on her - which she could tell because I had described how it made me feel, and then she described how it made her feel.

Now, that doesn't mean that everyone will react in the same way to words used to attack them, nor does it tell us how many asterisks might help to draw the sting by breaking the connection up, if any number would, but it does seem a worthwhile line of inquiry.

11:38 / 11.08.06

This thread seemed to be pretty much on life support even before Bacon's contribution, so I suppose all it can do now is hope for a half-decent afterlife, in which nobody tampers with its poor corpse too much.

Comparing the term 'paddy' with the n-word or the p-word seems like a mistake though. 'Paddy' looks to be more comparable with something like 'cockney,' insofar as it's used fairly routinely in adverts and so on, and would appear to only become insulting when it's qualified by, I don't know, 'wanker,' or related. I'm thinking in particular of the betting chain 'Paddypower,' which is all over London these days - it's hard to imagine, say, an Asian business taking the same approach with regard to the p-word, unless it was in the spirit of self-immolation.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:48 / 11.08.06

I'd agree with Supaglue that the asterisk makes the point that one is using the word advisedly. While I can see Weaving's point that it's a "get out of jail free" card, I'd say it's also worth bearing in mind that, like many "get out of jail free" cards, it can and hopefully will be challenged on Barbelith if being used as such. I'm thinking here of (extreme example) Sh*dowsax's (see what I did there?) technique of giving his "not actually my opinion" disclaimers, which didn't exactly have them breaking down the doors for him.

I tend to try to avoid stuff like "the N word"; if it's unavoidable- if I'm quoting, for example- then I put the asterisk in. I would hope that if someone took my (even with asterisk) usage to be racist, they'd give me a sound verbal kicking. Or at least point out where I'd gone wrong.

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:55 / 11.08.06

Interestingly, I'd assumed that Paddy Power was a proper name - that is, the business had been founded by a Patrick Power- but it seems it was so named after the merger of P. Corcoran, Kelly O'Reilly and Richard Power bookmakers - so, the Paddy might indeed have been used to signify Irishness, as part of the plan presumably with the merger was to expand into other markets...

Hmmm. Amazing what you learn from tangential Barbelith discussion.

13:16 / 11.08.06

Sometimes I’m grateful that we can go offtopic in the Convo.

I'd agree with Supaglue that the asterisk makes the point that one is using the word advisedly.

Yeah, I can see that it’s motivated by a desire to say ‘I don’t approve of this word’, and as a short-hand for that, I suppose there’s a value in it. But I just think that sometimes it’s as if the asterisk cleans it up, renders it harmless.

Thinking about it another way; if used in anger, I don’t imagine ‘N*gger’ would be taken as any less offensive than if the traditional spelling was employed. Would it? Putting a star in there doesn’t make it any better in those circumstances, does it?

If it's unavoidable- if I'm quoting, for example- then I put the asterisk in.

Problem with this is that it’s potentially inaccurate and ambiguous. If you saw the asterisk in the quote, you wouldn’t know if it was in the original speech. And – as evidenced in this thread – it might matter whether it was or not.

miss wonderstarr

14:34 / 11.08.06

Re. "Paddy" not being insulting, I know Wikipedia shouldn't be our ultimate authority, but it suggests otherwise:

"Paddy, a slang term in British English for an Irish person. It is a diminutive of the Irish forename Pádraig, the equivalent of the English "Patrick", and although it is also in use as an ordinary forename its use as slang is now considered offensive or contemptuous by many people."

miss wonderstarr

14:39 / 11.08.06

if used in anger, I don’t imagine ‘N*gger’ would be taken as any less offensive than if the traditional spelling was employed. Would it?

I can't imagine anyone doing it in anger, which does suggest to me that starring out one letter reduces its power ~ if you wanted to hurt and insult someone on the basis of their ethnicity, you would use the full word. To put the asterisk in would be like pulling that punch. I suppose it could be a cowardly way of voicing a racial slur without "really" saying it, or alternatively a way of getting around a discussion board's censorship (I mean, automatic censorship ~ not around the community's response.)

Perhaps one reason for the distinction to my mind is that asterisking a letter out takes marginally more thought and care, as it's not a real word and doesn't come naturally. If you're writing in anger, you write and post rapidly and rashly, without that thought and self-censorship.

14:47 / 11.08.06

On that point [re: wikipedia; crosspost], the OED also includes a "Chiefly derogatory" note at the "Irishman" sense of "paddy whack." It does distinguish this from the sense used in the song ("violent blow"), but there is still an open question about the origins of either sense ("semantic motivation unclear," says the OED), or any relation between the two ("the way you treat an Irishman"? "the violence typical of the Irish"? or something entirely different).

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:49 / 11.08.06

I certainly wouldn't call an Irish person a paddy, and I would think that somebody who did without a preexisting relationship with that person that legitimated it was being offensive. I didn't realise that we were in any doubt about that, though.

In the case of Paddy Power, there's an ambiguity between first name/offensive term for Irishman, because "Paddy Power" appears to be a play on Irishness made by an Irish Company, but also a sort of imaginary founder - like William Hill - taking its name from the Richard Power bookmakers.

15:03 / 11.08.06

I can't imagine anyone doing it in anger…

Yeah, I agree that it’s not a very likely scenario; it was just a hypothetical to get at the stuff about context, touching on what Stoatie said here:

I would hope that if someone took my (even with asterisk) usage to be racist, they'd give me a sound verbal kicking. Or at least point out where I'd gone wrong.

If someone referred to ‘lazy n*ggers’ on the board, I – and I expect a long line of people – would get out the verbal hobnails. I don’t think it would matter that there was an asterisk there. Making some style-twitch that’s supposed to signify that you’re using a word ‘advisedly’ doesn’t matter a jot if it’s actually being used very unadvisedly.

My point is there is no punctuation mark that can stand in for using language carefully and sensitively. You can’t just pick a symbol and decide it means ‘I’m not using this word in an offensive way’. Just don’t use it in an offensive way. If you can’t, don’t use it.

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