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Pirates of the Caribbean 2: Dead Man's Chest - Post Release Thread

 
  

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Baz Auckland
23:28 / 06.07.06
SPOILERS ASSUMED



Has anyone else seen this yet? I caught it last night and it was SO COOL.

There were things that could have been left out (how many tentacle fights can you have?), but then you wouldn't have almost 2 and a half hours of pirates and swordfights and Jack Sparrow and all the rest of everything. It was a long movie, and it was GOOD.

A friend in the theater complained that there were too many characters, introducing a dozen new ones while keeping all the old ones from the last one, and that there were too many plot lines all going at once. I can see what they mean, but I don't think it hurt the movie any. Leaving the theater at the end though, it was hard to remember what had happened back at the beginning of the movie...

Davy Jones and the Flying Dutchman was great and creepy, and making Norrington a filthy, half-dead drunk actually made him likable...

Did anyone stay until the end of the credits? Was there anything more afterwards like the last one?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:33 / 06.07.06
Haven't read your post, as I'm trying to avoid spoilers, but IN THIRTEEN HOURS I WILL BE SEEING THIS MOVIE!!!


"Electric Boogaloo" would have been a better sequel name than "Dead Man's Chest", though.
 
 
Seth
04:22 / 07.07.06
Saw it last night, it was fun. It's the same mix as the first one, a few character actors going to ham overload with some amazing special effects.

Yes, there's a scene after the credits. It's worth staying a little while longer for if you thought the thicko cannibals were a good thing.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:05 / 07.07.06
I actually thought it was even better than the first one. I fucking loved it, and the plot twist at the end made me really, really glad I'd mostly managed to avoid spoilers.

If Pirates... really IS the new Star Wars (as I've seen claimed in various reviews) then this was DEFINITELY Empire Strikes Back- if they learned from Lucas's lessons and manage to avoid doing ROTJ next time, we could have a fucking classic trilogy on our hands.

I liked the post-credit bit- I'd guessed very early on in the movie what it was going to be- it was fairly obviously telegraphed, but a couple of hours later I'd completely forgotted, and it was only when




SPOILERS










the cannibals reappeared that I was like "yeah, they're gonna be worshipping the dog".


The fight on the rolling millwheel thingy was classic, the Kraken didn't disappoint, Davy Jones's crew were, if anything, BETTER than Barbossa's and Depp was- as expected- utterly fantastic again.









AAAAARRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!
 
 
Triplets
18:55 / 07.07.06
Glad to see Russ is still on top form.
 
 
Chiropteran
04:30 / 08.07.06
Captain Jack Sparrow knows how to make an entrance.

A little loose, a little rambling - the movie, not the Captain. And the Captain. Anyway, it weren't the most tightly edited of beasts. As with the first Pirates, I came away feeling mixed - the story and characters and all that were fantastic... but the film itself wasn't so hot, and left me feeling let down, like eating your favorite meal, only reheated, and with something important left out of the sauce. I'm stretching, I know.

Still, I did have a lot of fun with it, and I'm now fully committed to the Pirates mythos. I look forward to the DVD release, so I can watch the two back-to-back.
 
 
Ganesh
13:47 / 08.07.06
I'm just impressed that face transplant surgery has advanced to the stage where the visage of Pete From Big Brother can be stitched onto Russell Brand.
 
 
Chiropteran
16:01 / 08.07.06
Oh, of possible interest to the Temple-y folks: cat yronwode was the set-dressing consultant (and supplier) for the conjure-woman's house. I guess the production crew bought loads of hoodoo gear (little of which is actually visible in the movie, but, y'know), including a full set(!!) of the Hyatt books (a compendious hoodoo/folklore survey - rare, valuable).
 
 
Mistoffelees
17:02 / 08.07.06
I still have to wait almost three weeks for this! But on the 27th, I´ll be watching.
 
 
Seth
09:12 / 09.07.06
Ganesh: do you mean to say that Pete from Big Brother is about to unleash the Biblical Plague that Hell-A deserves via a bomb in the convention centre?
 
 
Ganesh
10:27 / 09.07.06
If it involves insects, then possibly.

Actually no, it'd be Russell Brand with Pete's face. It is more typical of Brand.
 
 
Ticker
22:09 / 09.07.06
I thought it was a grand romp and a big fat YAY for the Kracken!

The spouse pointed out that Davy Jones' men were utterly creepy scary if you looked at them closely. Eeew Deep Ones!

Lepidopteran, thanks for the hoodoo insight!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:10 / 09.07.06
I thought I'd got it out of my system, having been to see it and stuff, but they just had a trailer on telly and I'm cursing the fact that I don't know any all-night cinemas.

I WANT TO SEE IT AGAIN, DAMN YOU!!!

I'm sure there are people (possibly made of straw, I admit) out there who think Depp's wasted on such stuff... but fuck 'em. I honestly believe that if they can make the third one anywhere near as good as the first two, it's totally Star Wars or Indiana Jones stuff.

And the feeling I got when Will and Elizabeth both simultaneously came out with the correction "CAPTAIN... Jack Sparrow" was equal to anything from either IJ or SW. This shit is movie gold, I tell you. Movie fucking gold.
 
 
Chiropteran
00:20 / 10.07.06
I'm sure there are people (possibly made of straw, I admit) out there who think Depp's wasted on such stuff...

Well, Depp's agent was sitting right there when he said "I'll do it," and was completely shocked. Apparently a lot of people have asked him if he feels bad about doing it (this is from the Rolling Stone interview, btw), but he's all for it. He also had no idea, when he signed, how huge it would turn out to be - a movie based on a theme park ride didn't scream boffo box.... at first. Now, I guess, Pirates 2 is breaking records. And I know Buena Vista is hardly a box office underdog, but it still makes me unreasonably happy that a pirate movie is at #1.

And here's an interesting interview with the writers.
 
 
*
01:48 / 10.07.06
I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record here. Still, at the risk of continuing to be the humourless frowny-face who is no fun at parties, what about the racism?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:11 / 10.07.06
Well... Firstly I think you need to say a bit more than that, id. And this is coming from someone who normally thinks all that "id entity thinks..." stuff isn't necessary! But here I think "accusations of racism from Michael Polonio, the President of the National Garifuna Council of Belize", presumably with an additional "which I think are valid", would be good (interesting to read that the National Garifuna Council is divided on the issue).

I feel much the same way about the cannibals as I do about some of the content of Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen comics: on the one hand, it did make me uncomfortable and I could have done without it. On the other hand, both works fall into a rather odd genre in which they take well-established tropes and types of a certain kind of bygone genre fiction and deliberately work within them. Sea monsters, cannibals, even a suggestion of the idea that the world is flat... I'm not sure the cannibals are ever referred to as Caribs or anything other than just "cannibals" - although yes, there's an argument that this particular fictional idea had racist elements from the get-go.

And then again, to complicate matters further, I have to ask myself to what extent I'm willing to overlook or ignore or apologise for racist elements in a film that I otherwise found relentlessly enjoyable and AWESOME. (More on which subject to follow.) I mean that in two senses - both in terms of "am I apologising for this more than I want to/should be?" and "as someone who does often enjoy morally/politically troubling art/entertainment".
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:11 / 10.07.06
Good post, Fly- I tend to go with your second paragraph, but I also have some of the same doubts as your third.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:14 / 10.07.06
I can't remember the exact name of the book but I read somewhere respectable that the various people who got recorded as "Cannibals" by our explorers were generally only consuming human flesh in very special occasions, and the people being consumed would have been as consenting as, say, a catholic submitting to being whipped.

In the film they were intent on eating him to release his soul from his body, which is a step forward from "they eat people because they're no better than animals", the overt meaning behind the traditional image of cannibalism. It still pissed me off though.

On the other hand, the East India Company were shown as being ugly, power-hungry, intent on taking over the oceans and anyone they came across, actually using the word "empire", and the black Hoodoo priestess had a central and empowered role...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:37 / 10.07.06
Well, I don't think Tia Dalma is necessarily an unproblematic character in that respect. But Naomie Harris would, I think, like me if she met me.

I wonder if I was the only person strongly reminded of China Mieville's The Scar by this film - a combination of the design of Jones, his crew and his ship, the "fear of the sea" Kraken thing obviously, and the East India Company as bad guys. And of course they sail to the edge of the world in that novel, too...
 
 
John Octave
16:21 / 10.07.06
Aside from the cannibals, I thought thought it was a bit...bothersome...that after the whole "Six could crew it" thing on the cliff, it appeared to be a race between the white characters and the non-white characters, who are sneaky and treasonous and die.

That said, though there were elements of the movie that were unquestioningly badass -- Bill Nighy as Octopus-Head playing a pipe organ of doom, a three-way swordfight on a water wheel, gattling cannons, kraken vs. pirate ship -- I just didn't like it as much as the last one. The first one felt looser and more inspired, with kind of a sense of "Let's turn on the camera and let Johnny Depp do something funny" and "Let's have a narratively pointless fight between immortals because skeletons swordfighting are pretty cool." This one felt a lot more conventional and plot-heavy to accomodate the whole THIS IS NOW A TRILOGY thing.

Also, did it feel to anyone else like someone's fan-fiction opus? Lots of reused lines and Will gets to meet his dad and Norrington returns and let's bring back that monkey and those two clownish pirates we liked in the first one but make them kinda good guys and let's suggest an OMG Will/Elizabeth/Jack love triangle!

Or maybe I was just grumpy because although I knew it wasn't going to happen, I wanted that big reveal at the end to be Keith Richards staggering into the room and saying "All right, let's go rescue my son, ey?" Drat.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
09:14 / 11.07.06
Flyboy when you meet her I think you should use: "In Dead Man's Chest your character was necessarily unproblematic." As a chat up line, I think she'd like that.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:21 / 11.07.06
Not necessarily unproblematic! But whether necessarily or unnecessarily problematic I am unsure.

Does anyone else think that the ring Captain Jack stole from her desk might be the reason he's not, well, dead? I've come to this conclusion because:

a) He steals it from her desk in what seems like a throwaway character moment ("Jack steals stuff"), in a film which actually doesn't have that many throwaway moments and is very dense with plot. I find it hard to believe that Tia Dalma has anything lying around her shack that doesn't Do Something.

b) Our attention is not drawn to it again until just before he jumps into the maw of the beastie: when he's getting out of the manacle Elizabeth has put him in, great care is taken to ensure we see that he keeps that ring on.

c) Tia Dalma knows where Jack is, and that he's not dead. Okay, so she just knows stuff anyway, but perhaps she knows specifically because her ring's gone missing and she knows what it does?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:17 / 11.07.06
Ooh, hadn't thought of (well, to be honest, noticed) that- it certainly sounds plausible. When I inevitably go to see this again I'll be sure to keep an eye out.
 
 
Chiropteran
13:18 / 11.07.06
And it looks like (if it's the same ring, and I think it is) Jack/Depp is wearing the ring - prominently - on the cover of Rolling Stone. Whether that means anything, I don't know, but it does offer some slender support to the "not merely a throwaway moment" hypothesis -- "keep the ring visible, make it part of the Captain's recognizable image."

Flyboy, I'm curious to hear what you feel is specifically problematic about Tia Dalma (not that I disagree - they're definitely at least skirting the edges of some uncomfortable territory - but I suspect you'll be able to articulate it better than my own vague unease).

As for the cannibals, it was interesting to see what a big deal Disney made in the official press kit about the "completely and utterly fictional (i.e. "made up") tribe the Pelogostians, and their completely made up (i.e. "fictional") language that is based completely on fiction and accounts from pirate folklore that have nothing to do with real people like the Caribs, whom our 'let's pretend' cannibal Pelogostians don't even resemble." I wouldn't say that gets them off the hook, really, at all, but they seemed to be running around in circles to emphasize that "no real people were defamed during the making of this movie and, if you asked them, our lawyers would agree with us." Unfortunately, there is a thick vein of (probably unconscious/unintentional, but no less palpable) racist imagery running through both movies, which makes it harder to write off any individual instance.

One potential problem that comes with reviving a genre - "The Pirate Movie" - that's been effectively dead for 40-50 years (and was firmly rooted in genre literature from an even earlier period), is that of reproducing the iconic imagery associated with that genre without considering how times have changed. Aside from the cannibals and that sort of story-level thing, the basic design elements "pirates crews were ethnically diverse" (historically true) and "pirates were ugly/dirty/savage" combine to give you a lot of ugly, dirty, savage, nonwhite pirates menacing, say, Kiera Knightly in her nightgown, in a way that reinforces some distinctly uncomfortable ideas (e.g. as soon as she steps onboard the Black Pearl in PotC1, she is viciously backhanded by a towering, bald, tribal-scarred African man - the same man who later pushes her off the plank in her underwear - and is "rescued" by the more outwardly "civilized"-looking European, Barbossa). Surely they could have found a way to work around the most obvious problems, but they didn't.

And it's too bad, because like PJ's King Kong (you want horrific cannibals??), there was so much that was so good about the movie, and I want so much to be able to enjoy it/defend it unconditionally, but...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:28 / 11.07.06
I think the racial division in the crew largely comes down to having cast white actors in all the main roles. Once this (okay, very likely mistaken) decision was made, it put them in the position of either having an all-white crew, which would have been both dodgy and implausible, or or having an ethnically-mixed crew who are constantly going to be (by the nature of the story) either fucking over the leads or constantly about to rebel against them. I doubt it was an issue when they chose Depp, Knightley and Bloom, but I also doubt they thought through the ramifications of that.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:29 / 11.07.06
Although, come to think of it, for any of the three main characters NOT to be white it would have to be a completely different story. Except possibly Jack, but with no Depp, you've got no movie, really.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:50 / 11.07.06
Yun-Fat Chow is in the third one - will be interesting to see in what kind of role...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:57 / 11.07.06
Interesting to see if they break with Hollywood tradition and don't have a Brit playing the BIG BAD. (Though of course, Davy Jones'll still be swishing that beard around).
 
 
Chiropteran
14:04 / 11.07.06
Oh yeah, there were reasons and justifications for the decisions that were made in casting and design, and a lot of other things became "necessary" once these decisions were made - I'm just saying that, when taken together, these individual decisions and elements added up to something that the producers probably didn't intend (or, possibly, notice). And I wouldn't say that it's "worse" than a lot of other contemporary movies (again, compare the Pirates cannibals to the King Kong cannibals), but it is occasionally troubling in a distinctive, pirate-flavored (ew.) way. I wouldn't call it a "racist movie" in the sense that it has an agenda concerning race; it does employ some racially-charged imagery in a probably unexamined way.

And it had Davey Jones playing an enormous organ with his face-tentacles. We can't forget that.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:06 / 11.07.06
That last to Stoatie, a few posts back.

Yun-Fat Chow is reportedly playing a "Chinese pirate."
 
 
Aertho
14:23 / 11.07.06
Marc Singer of Not the Beastmaster has a few things to say about Pirates 2.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
14:45 / 11.07.06
I understand that the Kraken Defamation League have complained about the stereotypeing of giant cephalopods as rampaging, ship destroying monsters. Apparently they felt that there more sensitive side was underrepresented.

As a Disney film (the only one I'll watch, I do love these films but they make me feel like such a hypocrite for watching them) I was kind of relieved that the racism was incidental rather than an actual attack on a culture (like, say, nearly all their animated films).

The problem is if you have even a vaguely realistic representation of race in the period suddenly this isn't a very fun film at all, in fact suddenly it's quite a horrible and disturbing film. We all seem to agree that pirates are cool but in order for POTC to work it has to exist in a kind of fairy land where the 18th Century Carribean portrayed in the film has about as much to do with the actual 18th century as Hogwarts does with a comprehensive school in an inner city.

I had a problem with them sort of blithely ignoring the whole issue of slavery in the first one, almost to the point of portraying happy slaves (the kid who works on the jetty were Jack comes into land), not to mention how incredibly white the Caribean seems to be and would've liked to have seen that addressed in some way which I think the writers are clever enough to do. The question were do you draw the line? In a film which is ultimatly very trivial, set up purely for entertasinment which it does very well at, how would you go about handling it?
 
 
Chiropteran
14:49 / 11.07.06
Apparently they felt that there more sensitive side was underrepresented.

Well, the more sensitive side is usually underwater.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:51 / 11.07.06
Cass - that's mostly fair although in general I disagree with the author about the merits of the film as entertainment (length etc.), and no doubt this influences the strength of our responses.

I would say however that this:

Oh, and she flirts with every attractive male in sight, just another hypersexualized black character.

...Is nonsense. Tia Dalma flirts with precisely one character, Will Turner. To consider a woman who flirts with Orlando Bloomps to be "hypersexualized" is, I think, setting the bar for hypersexuality a little low.
 
 
e-n
14:53 / 11.07.06
hmmmn
ninjas of the caribbean?
I'd pay to see that.

Ahem.
Did anyone else think that the structure of the film was quite odd, again, very much like the first , where there was all that to-ing and fro-ing with the isla de la meuerte (?) and people heading into the island to rescue somebody and then back out again to get something else.

The whole orlando on the flying dutchman and the scenes around the chest on the island struck me as very much in the same vein where a more typicaly blockbuster-y scriptwriter (director?) might have made the scenes a little more linear, and ditched some of the "messyness"

I'm pissed on grog and this doesn't make much sense but I felt that like the pixar movies (most notably in Finding Nemo's final act) this messy kind of strcture was actually quite enjoyable.

Nothing however can forgive that ending though.
It should be signposted outside the cinema that the third films is a direct continuation of the second.
Everyone in the cinema I was in felt totally cheated by the end.
 
  

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