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Underground > Policy & Help >

Are we making joining Barbelith seem harder than it is?

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Regrettable Juvenilia

13:35 / 19.05.06

So, if you're not a member of the board and you want to register, you click on the 'register' button and you see this:

"Barbelith's membership is currently by invitation only"

That's kind of misleading, is it not? It's true in the sense that you apply, and then you wait to be invited, but the more intuitive interpretation of that sentence would be that people don't apply and get accepted onto the board - we have to specifically invite them first. Which is a) not true, and b) would be a rubbish, excessively elitist way to do things.

The Wiki goes into a bit more detail, but it still says:

"New registrations to the message board are - at the moment - highly limited and are being handled by an informal process designed to weed out spammers and trolls"

Again, "highly limited" is a little misleading - there isn't a finite number of people who can join.

I can't help wonder whether Barbelith currently gives the impression of a place that is very hard to become a member of - I vaguely recall recent conversations with people who knew of the board and thought this - when in fact this is not true: it might take a while depending on how busy the checkers/Tom are, but they're doing a great job and they don't make anyone take any kind of IQ test or psychological evaluation.

I wonder whether we shouldn't soften the language in which the application process is presented - at the moment, it strikes me that it could put off people who might add value, while at the same time, I don't see how changing the way getting onto the board is presented can do any harm.

13:54 / 19.05.06

they don't make anyone take any kind of IQ test or psychological evaluation.

Perhaps this is where we are going wrong?

13:58 / 19.05.06

Well, I'm delighted to have been in the new batch of those let in and yeah it seemed to require epic efforts.

I sent my first request in June of last year and never heard back. I tried again last month and have now been registered. My spouse tried for many years and is somewhat despondant about renewing attempts. We understood the difficulty because the troll problems are well set forth as the primary reason. I'd suggest if it could be known that new members are actively being accepted *now* (with current date) it might inspire people to step up again.

Those on the doorstep understand the effort of the interviewing process and that it takes time. I just think to know it was happening rather than stalled would change the perception. Maybe a simple '50 new members approved and joined May '06' would help.

14:16 / 19.05.06

Hmm. This is definitely something to think about. The language under the register button, especially.

17:13 / 19.05.06

Yeah, good call.
And I think it's worth making it clearer that if you have an email account with an established institution (school, business etc), or you have a verifiable web presence, then joining is actually very straight forward (just not instant).

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

19:48 / 19.05.06

Well, it clearly isn't "invitation only", is it? More "applications are subject to approval". "IO" is something that is gonna put off a lot of people because it implies that you have to already know someobody on here, when in fact that isn't the case.

I'd be all for changing that phrasing. What with it being wrong and all.

20:05 / 19.05.06

what y'all said.
well, apart from gypsy.
gyspy can keep hir vanguardism, however well intentioned or underserious.

21:14 / 19.05.06

Let's update it. "Entry into Barbelith is currently slow" perhaps, or "Don't apply if you're a twat, otherwise come on in".

23:59 / 19.05.06

I'd go for "Just fucking play nice!", myself.

Regrettable Juvenilia

19:00 / 23.05.06

Bump, 'cos I don't want this to just be forgotten and it would be good if Tom could give his views while he's about. I'll PM him too.

Tryphena Absent

20:54 / 23.05.06

Barbelith application is by invitation only- I think Tom literally invites you so I don't have a problem with the registration link at all. The wiki page is pretty misleading though and I can't edit it. Can anyone get access to it or does Tom need to put new text in?

21:21 / 23.05.06

Can anyone get access to it or does Tom need to put new text in?

Oh, hey, I can do that. What would you like it to say, exactly?

21:24 / 23.05.06

Oh no, actually, no I can’t do that after all, because I’m away from my home computer and I can’t remember my wiki login password-thing because I’m an idiot. You’ll need to ask grant or Mario to do it for you, ‘cause they’re wiki-admins, or else just post here what you want it to say and I’ll paste it into the wiki in a little while. Sorry.

(I’ve been sort of working on revamping that whole Front Page bit of the wiki anyway, and was literally just about to ask for help and input when loads of other stuff suddenly happened. But anyway.)

Tryphena Absent

21:40 / 23.05.06

Basically I'd like to knock out the line that says applications are highly limited and swap the bolding round so that the actual advise on how to apply is emphasised instead.

21:51 / 23.05.06

But no actual wordy content-type changeage? Okay - well, if Mario/grant don’t get to that first, I’ll do it next time I’m able to. Sorry again for the delay - we had to freeze the Main Page to stop it from being spammed every 10 minutes, is all.

'Course, we could always just put all the ‘how to apply to barbelith’ stuff onto a separate, brand new, editable-by-anyone wiki page, and then link to that from the Main Page, if that’s easier.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:21 / 23.05.06

Barbelith application is by invitation only- I think Tom literally invites you so I don't have a problem with the registration link at all.

Well yes, but that's more an acceptance of an application than an invitation. "Invitation only" really does imply that you can just fuck off if if you've just stumbled across the place, and we only want people who've been led here by someone or other. That can't be right, surely.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

00:11 / 24.05.06

I dunno... I just went through the whole process, and I read the "invitation only... hang on, you can actually apply" approach as that they didn't want anybody popping in to post photos of their cats or regale us with stories of how we've turned our back on Jesus and will burn in eternal fire.

So I thought about it, decided that I had enough goin' on that I could apply and hopefully get away with it, and just applied.

Bucking the "invitation only" emphasis to apply took a certain amount of self-assurance, but I think it's that degree of self-assurance among the posters here that makes this a valuable place to be.

And while I now post pictures of my cats with frightening regularity, they're such cute widdle fuzzy lumpkins I figure nobody minds.

I'm new here, so I have no real long-term perspecitve on what the community should be, or how it should be shaped for the future. But I really felt like the current application method meant I had to be sure I had something to contribute before I let others share in that decision. And there's something to that.

Also: there's another lengthy thread about the dastardly length of time it takes to get applications/invitations processed. Are y'all sure you want to take steps to increase the application volume before that gets sorted?

01:23 / 24.05.06

There is that, but I think the de facto waiting/cooling off period is pretty effective for discouraging people with only a shot-term or casual interest.
But with that in mind, and also to give fair warning, we should probably mention that the time between sending an application email and getting an invitation from Tom probably averages about a month (maybe more?). And if your application email ticks all the boxes straight off, you probably won't get any acknowledgment from us in between.

Tryphena Absent

18:03 / 24.05.06

My interest in barbelith was only casual when I signed up and I'm not sure we should be discouraging people who feel that way. I'm betting a good proportion of us would have been too lazy and bored of bureaucracy to apply to become members of a space we wanted to use in our leisure time.

Tryphena Absent

18:04 / 24.05.06

(I bet we're losing some really interesting people because they can't be arsed to reply to an email from a stranger when they've been at work all day)

18:41 / 24.05.06

I'm with the Stoat. I showed someone the BB6 thread the other day and he took one look, clicked to get Ganesh's profile necause he was impressed by the post and was immediately put off by the "invitation only" message. Stopped reading right there. How about: "Barbelith membership has regrettably been restricted due to persistent trolls, so if you want to join the fun, we have an application procedure you can follow here."

18:53 / 24.05.06

(I bet we're losing some really interesting people because they can't be arsed to reply to an email from a stranger when they've been at work all day)

Well, we might be interested in them, but if they can't be arsed to reply at their leisure to a polite email, they couldn't be that interested in us.

Personally, I'd be more worried that we're losing interesting people who give up on us when they send us an email and hear nothing back for months. It just seems ill-mannered.

Would it be possible to set up an auto-reply from the gmail address that would confirm receipt and could be kept up to date with an estimated turn-around time?

14:13 / 25.05.06

Barbelith membership has regrettably been restricted due to persistent trolls, so if you want to join the fun, we have an application procedure you can follow here.

I like that -- that and the auto-response.

Tryphena Absent

14:22 / 25.05.06

I'll take a look at the gmail account and have a think about what to write in an auto response.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

14:29 / 25.05.06

cube: that's nice. Formal yet friendly. I like it.

Tryphena Absent

10:00 / 26.05.06

I've set up an auto response letting people know that it's around three weeks before they'll get a response. Basically that means when their names are uploaded onto the database I need you to look at them as soon as possible. Currently the oldest email in the gmail account is dated 9th May.

10:22 / 26.05.06

Nice one Anna.

13:03 / 26.05.06

Somewhere in the old thread about joining there is some autoresponse text which we all worked out for when I was dealing with the applications. II'll have a look and see if I can find it.

18:25 / 29.05.06

ADL: Basically I'd like to knock out the line that says applications are highly limited and swap the bolding round so that the actual advise on how to apply is emphasised instead.

....

Righto, so I’ve finally made it back home, back to my own computer with my wiki-password stuck to it on a post-it note, ie so yam finally able to log into the wiki and make those teeny-tiny changes you asked for. Like so. Hope that’s okay, sorry for the delay etc etc, and if you want any more changes made just say.

Tryphena Absent

21:55 / 29.05.06

Thanks

13:59 / 08.06.06

So what exactly is the 'interview' process? Is it a screening, Q&A via email...? How do you glean in an emai or two if someone will be obnoxious or not? Just curious... I have a friend who may be interested in joining and wanted to learn more about/familiarize myself with the application process.

Also, regarding this from the wiki...

>> We are receiving a lot of applications from free email addresses. Unless you have a blog or website, make a regular contribution to another messageboard, or appear in detail on a work/college/school site please do not apply using a free email address such as hotmail, gmail or yahoo.

Most people have 'free' email addresses as listed above. If they don't have their own sites or a blog, or if they don't want to write from their jobs/office email addresses, how are they to contact Barbelith if they're not allowed to use gmail, hotmail, yahoo, etc.? Is it the case that only people with blogs/their own sites or who contribute to other boards/write reviews are allowed to even apply?

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:20 / 08.06.06

The latter question is, to my mind, the biggest flaw in the process, especially as it throws up some politically troubling implications in terms of how the Barbelith demographic might end up being selected on the basis of what kind of employment someone has, whether they can afford to own their own computer and internet connection, etc...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

14:24 / 08.06.06

I agree, Fly, but I don't think it's quite as prohibitive as it sounds, as far as I can gather. Don't checkers just do a bit more checking on people with free addresses? Actually, if that is indeed the case, the wording should probably be amended somewhat.

Is this true or did I completely imagine it?

Tryphena Absent

15:11 / 08.06.06

Is it the case that only people with blogs/their own sites or who contribute to other boards/write reviews are allowed to even apply?

Other people with none of these things can apply but only long term persistence will let them on (unless they know someone on the site). The applications process exists to keep trolls off the board, that's the only concrete reason for it. How can you tell someone's a troll from a few emails back and forth rather than someone with views you consider questionable? You can't. That's why we have criteria around internet presence.

I don't even like the system, I find it hierachical and time consuming but I want new people on barbelith. Unless more people have banning capability we have to do it this way.

15:12 / 08.06.06

well, checking references thoroughly on people with free emails is different than saying 'you're not allowed to even try to join the party if all you have is a free email, so don't even contact us if that's all you have.'

And I guess checking references for a total stranger online who could be halfway around the world if they don't already write a column or post elsewhere can be kind of challenging...

I feel lucky that I got in years back when there wasn't the whole application/consideration process.

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