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An atheist manifesto

 
  

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astrojax69
23:15 / 14.05.06
athiest manifesto written by sam harris


nietzsche wrote that there is too little love and happiness in the world for any of it to be spent on an imaginary being. i always found this aphorism resounds in me when i contemplate atheism; that and that there is no point being an athiest if god doesn't exist - but that is so true.

but what do others think? perhaps there is a side to harris' view that doesn't account for what religion does and how it functions? or has he covered off the bases there too?
 
 
werwolf
10:24 / 15.05.06
before i dig into harris' 'manifesto' (i think it is not really a 'manifesto', but then again i also think that harris misemploys some other words as well, so it probably is only a slight matter of semantics), let me state where i myself am standing. throughout my life i have wondered whether or not there is/are (a) divine entity/entitites and fostered my curiosity for things spiritual. but i have also very early on developed my personal way of thinking which (in a nutshell) states that whether or not such a divine presence exists or not cannot be answered in my lifetime and also makes no difference to the way i live my life. in other words, my way of thinking is very close to that of agnosticism.

as for mr. harris' text, i think it is a very strong and strong-willed attempt at describing what might be going wrong in the u.s.a. at this point in time. yet there are various passages and general strokes that make me wonder. i'll try to go through the text from start to finish and point out the passages that striked me as either highly interesting or peculiar (or perhaps both).
[i did not read the comment section to harris' text.]

in the very first passage, after using a very graphic demonstration of (probably) mislead faith in god, harris does something that i think is (especially for someone who thinks himself very rational) extremely objectionable and which he will do several times again over the course of his text:

"Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this? No." [bold emphasis mine.]

'right'? 'good'? by what measure, what moral standard? is harris saying that he has found the moral high ground as opposed to non-atheists and therefore can judge what is 'right' and 'good', because 'rationale' dictates it? i don't think a truly rational person would ever suggest something like this. but more on that later.

he then continues on with what i think sums up the main valid argument in this entire writ:

"[...] no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; [...]"

divison of church and state. something that has plagued and is still riding on the back of many societies. i have the impression that this is what really bugs harris, but he goes on ranting about faith and belief in god that kind of blemishes his otherwise solid argumentation.

"We live in a world where all things, good and bad, are finally destroyed by change. [...] If one didn’t know better, one would think that man, in his fear of losing all that he loves, had created heaven, along with its gatekeeper God, in his own image."

yes, and if it were so? harris seems to imply that remorselessly letting go of all things, because they inevitably will be lost, is the only way to go. well, besides the airiness of this implication (if indeed he makes it), this doesn't seem very rational in the first place and also it would seem smart to have an imaginary space into which one can release things when they are lost. a 'heaven' or 'other life' where one can let go of things and not be fettered to them in one's current life.

also, harris seems to think that all humans are rational thinking beings, who are being muddled in their rational capacity by religion, as exemplified here:

"If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place."

i don't think that humans are rational at all. so i don't think that any way humans choose to describe something like god (whether or not he/she/they exists or not) will be without errors. if there is a divine presence it probaly really cannot be judged by human standards, but how else should a human try to describe something if not by human standards? what else do we know? i do not see a contradiction here.
of course, i agree with harris that those who believe in such a divine presence must be aware of the inadequacy of their decriptions and rules and guidelines because they have all been put down by humans, even if they were really handed down by the divine presence itself. this is regrettably only very seldom the case.

after quoting some statistic figures about the inclination of us-americans towards their puritan and presbyterian roots, harris goes on to state very simply but profoundly:

"Ignorance in this degree, concentrated in both the head and belly of a lumbering superpower, is now a problem for the entire world."

quite a fact. we currently feel the political pressure of the u.s.a. all over the world and it is not a very welcome pressure nor is it generally considered to be very healthy. connecting this symptom of the u.s. government with religious fundamentalism is not far-fetched at all. again: i believe this to be harris' main point of criticism, to which he sadly did pay peripheral attention only.

he next has his funny moment, when he tries to reveal the failure of 'relgious moderation' with an example that might seem well made at first but is lacking. i won't quote that particular example, but harris' point is:

"It is perfectly absurd for religious moderates to suggest that a rational human being can believe in God simply because this belief makes him happy, relieves his fear of death or gives his life meaning."

rationality also includes proportionality, when the means justify the end, so to say. well, if (as in harris' example) the belief in a refrigerator-sized diamond in the backyard actually does make a person happy and does not make other persons unhappy, then i'd assume that the means very well justify the end and so it is perfectly rational to uphold that belief. that being said, harris' continuation of

"[...]“I wouldn’t want to live in a universe where there wasn’t a diamond buried in my backyard that is the size of a refrigerator.” Clearly these responses are inadequate. But they are worse than that. They are the responses of a madman or an idiot."

only make himself appear somewhat angry and shortsighted. i wonder whether he really is angry at god/s and religion or if he is more angry at humans for behaving stupidly in the name of god/s and religion. which are to very seperate things in my opinion.

on page 3 of his text harris appears to me the most concise in his criticism. here he lays out basic ideas why a secular government is to be favored to a religious one, but again there are some 'hiccups'.

"Countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on Earth."

he continues to point out that states like these are the most prosperous. yet he neglects (1) quoting a source for this information and (2) defining what he means by "are among the least relgious societies". i do not have a source to look up how religious or not these societies really are, but in my personal experience swedes and danish people are quite religious in their calvinistically influenced ways. also japan is a fiercely religious society, but is wise enough to keep religious matters out of state affairs, which in turn creates a very ambigious environment, because religion is such a great part of japanese culture.

on the final page harris lastly criticizes relgious conflicts. i agree with him on this, but again he uses rhetoric that makes me furrow my brow.

"In a world riven by ignorance, only the atheist refuses to deny the obvious: Religious faith promotes human violence to an astonishing degree."

'only the atheist' - again, harris seems to want us to know that atheism is a morally superior way to go. although he, at another point, concedes that dogmatic view of atheism is also not very healthy, he is basically doing just that. also, i think 'religious faith' seems to me to be the wrong word here. 'religious fanatism' or 'hierarchically organized religions' would seem to fit the bill much better. that should include all religious practices that are based on a fixed writ and leave no room for the human experience. see bible, torah, koran and so forth.

to sum it up, the very last paragraph of the text:

"Atheism is nothing more than a commitment to the most basic standard of intellectual honesty: One’s convictions should be proportional to one’s evidence. Pretending to be certain when one isn’t--indeed, pretending to be certain about propositions for which no evidence is even conceivable--is both an intellectual and a moral failing. Only the atheist has realized this. The atheist is simply a person who has perceived the lies of religion and refused to make them his own."

i am ambiguous about this part. on the one hand i agree with harris' plea to humans to be conscious and sceptically about what to believe in and what not. on the other hand i cannot sympathize with his vanity in regards to atheism.

imho, i think that harris has many valid points and makes a strong case for why harsh cirticism of religious fervor in today's societies is probably needed. yet i cannot get over the fact how he would use his perceived 'rationalism' in such unrational ways and not discern between individual spirituality and faith, organized forms thereof and the conflicts that might arouse from these. i'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that somewhere there is a more detailed publication in which he makes this distinction.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:40 / 15.05.06
Two things:

1) *YAWN*

Is there a single original idea or statement in this entire ridiculously rhetorical and dull essay? Do these sorts of arguments or discussions ever, ever achieve a single thing? Have they, since the dawn of communication? Does anyone, really and truly, have the time or inclination to argue this whole schtick again?

2) Atheist. See? If you were unsure of the spelling, you could have just looked at the title of the essay you are drawing from here. Perhaps forgivable in the main body of the text, but to have done it twice, once in the thread title, and here, in the Head Shop...tsk tsk tsk.
 
 
yemeth
12:26 / 15.05.06
Mmm after a year in Sweden I haven't perceived that religion plays any important role in the lives of people (so far the only religious person I've talked with was a theology student). I guess the difference could be as well, for example even this believer which has made religion his career (and which is a quite conservative guy), considers that homosexuality is right because it is about love, and told me that in fact the church of Sweden was involved in the defense of homosexual rights (!)

On Harris' argument, I think what fails is that he does not take his own reasoning to the logical conclussion (which imho leads to agnosticism):

"Atheism is nothing more than a commitment to the most basic standard of intellectual honesty: One’s convictions should be proportional to one’s evidence. Pretending to be certain when one isn’t--indeed, pretending to be certain about propositions for which no evidence is even conceivable--is both an intellectual and a moral failing. Only the atheist has realized this. The atheist is simply a person who has perceived the lies of religion and refused to make them his own."

The problem I find is, you can never have full evidence on anything at all. If I do the same experiment 1000 times I can be quite confident it will work the same the next one, but not certain. I've seen much more than 1000 days the day and night cycle, but that doesn't make me certain that tomorrow it will. Of course I assume that it will, but I cannot say it with 100% certainty.

That is to say, on science we build models to try to explain things, but we usually admit that the ultimate model is just not possible, and that different models might be applied to different situations (a typical example is classical physics vs quantum mechanics,... and even though in quantum mechanics there is a real problem with *ahem* gravitation, we don't dismiss the theory since it works well for other things).

So my point is, our models of reality share the same problems; they cannot account for a wholly coherent structuring of reality, and they all are ultimately inconsistent. In fact, psychosis and its process of rebuilding reality from the pieces is an answer to a shock in which the reality model that has been taken for granted is shown as inconsistent.

Thus, I agree that one should take evidence into account, but trying as less as possible to really have any beliefs, including those we take for granted. For example, I'm awake and writing on my computer and not asleep neither in coma with my mind recreating reality, etc... those models are as possible as the "standard" one, though I usually assume that "standard" or a personalized version of it which makes me able to act through its coordinates. Evidence is nice to make a "more useful" reality model(s), but I don't think it has to be considered as anything beyond that.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:25 / 15.05.06
Also rather missing the (I would think rather essential) point that religious belief is, well, a belief, rather than a certainty.

He's making the usual atheist error of judging claims of faith by the standards you'd use for claims of knowledge, when they are manifestly two different things.

And from that argument proceeds the usual self-congratulation and backslapping, presenting the atheist in terms of the Nietszchean superman: only the atheist has the courage to face life without a crutch, only the atheist has the courage to speak the truth, only the atheist has the courage to deal with thew world on its own terms, blah blah blah. Bored now.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:44 / 15.05.06
He makes a lot of rather dodgy points, if you ask me but I still disagree with Jack (¡que sorpresa!),


He's making the usual atheist error of judging claims of faith by the standards you'd use for claims of knowledge, when they are manifestly two different things.


because, largely, the claims of religion act as knowledge claims and are taken as knowledge claims by the vast majority of religious people I've ever spoken to. Really, I think you should be criticising religious people for missing the point.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:25 / 15.05.06
He's making the usual atheist error of judging claims of faith by the standards you'd use for claims of knowledge, when they are manifestly two different things.

What are the standards by which you judge claims of belief?

It would have been nice if this had actually been a manifesto but it really is quite boring. It's simply a criticism of religion and not a particularly astute one. This comment in particular annoyed me-

The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (87% of the population) who claim to never doubt the existence of God should be obliged to present evidence for his existence and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day.

The atheist is a person who believes that the relentless destruction of innocent human beings is only perpetrated by human beings. It is not then a given that 260 million Americans are obliged to present evidence for God's existence or benevolence because God does not actually enter into the picture at any point. How can an atheist manifesto ask people to present evidence for a creature that is not real? Sam Harris is reclining in the absurd land of absurdity.
 
 
werwolf
07:09 / 16.05.06
somewhere between mr. harris' lines i believe to have caught a whiff of vectorless anger. anger that was probably directed at the government of the u.s.a. and religious fanatics, as well as religious bigotry. imho, that is a justified feeling to have and there should be thoughts about the corelations of state and church (any church).

yet failing to express his anger he gets addled in his own discourse and trips and falls on his head, as has been precisely pointed out by posters before me.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:07 / 16.05.06
I agree that the manifesto is weak in places, and the moral case for atheism is probably the lowest point - I think a moral case for atheism is possible but only in a very limited sense.

One thing I get tired of seeing is the old "honest atheists should really be agnostics" which I hear a lot, and which seems to rely on exactly the presumption for well known religions that Harris mentions. If sceptism and lack of evidence meant we always had to declare uncertainty, rather than disbelief, then we would all declare that we didn't know anything. If an honest sceptic has to be agnostic about the Judeo-Christian god, then why not the same for Descarte's demon? Why not for the million and one things we take for granted every day? The answer is because we do not simply adopt a neutral position on something because we lack iron clad evidence, partly because evidence is rarely if ever iron clad.

As for the diamond in the back yard analogy, I thought that was quite good, myself. Except Harris didn't take it further and wonder about the moral dilemma that would arise if believing in the diamond was a great good, on average. One would have to articulate why delusions are bad per se, which is a rather difficult thing to do, imho.
 
 
Dragon
03:03 / 29.06.06
Werewolf:

i'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that somewhere there is a more detailed publication in which he makes this distinction.

You might try The End of Faith. I haven't read it, but maybe it will be "a more detailed publication" which satisfies your curiosity.
 
 
Dragon
03:12 / 29.06.06
Lurid,

I see no reason to have absolute proof of anything in order to fully accept it. Certainly the Christain doesn't... But then, the Christian is usually unable to tell the difference between fact and fiction, hence their unquestioning belief in an unsupported fiction.
 
 
Lurid Archive
06:16 / 29.06.06
Dragon: You really do your argument no favours by making sweeping and silly generalisations about Christians, as you do above.
 
 
Dragon
22:56 / 29.06.06
If it is a sweeping generalization, it is a correct one.

There are other ways of looking at it:

1) Occam's razor

2) Rule of debate -- The person making the assertion must back it up.

Would you agree thus far that these conditions don't favor the theist?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:56 / 30.06.06
But then, the Christian is usually unable to tell the difference between fact and fiction, hence their unquestioning belief in an unsupported fiction.

I haven't read it,but

Quoted without comment.

But Occam's raazor states that one should not increase the number of entities required to explain anything. God does that rather well, being a single entity that explains rather a lot. Occam was a priest, you know. The rule of debate argument is predicated on the false assumption that the statement "God exists" is to be proved, rather than the statement "God does not exist". Now, if you'd like to contribute to this thread, I would sugggest that you read the text linked above and discuss its content. If you would like to start a thread about how, generally, Christians are stupid, it probably goes in the Conversation or the Temple.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:05 / 30.06.06
Or better yet, your local divinity school. I mean, people go to school for thisnonsense—how dumb is that? Some of them have doctorates in this stuff, for cryin' out loud: they must be the really stupid ones, the ones who never ask any questions and who have been totally blinded to the difference between fact and fiction.

They're the ones who'd really be shaken by your TERRIFYING INSIGHTS, Dragon; you ouughtta take the fight to them. Why not head down to a seminary or university, march straight into the Theology department, and start flinging around accusations of idiocy? That'll really show 'em. Show them THE TRUTH.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:00 / 30.06.06
When these headcrabs finally get me and I become a savage, unthinking beast tormented by hallucinatory memories of what I once was, I am going to eat the next person who posts to this thread without reading or referencing the Atheist Manifesto written by Sam Harris.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:57 / 30.06.06
Dragon: Why not ask the folks at your local divinity school if they have read The Atheist Manifesto by Sam Harris? I'd bet that many of them probably have. Maybe they can summarize it for you.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:12 / 30.06.06
I do wish that atheists would be a little more sophisticated sometimes in their arguments; even the Sam Harris piece has many weaknesses, gaps and oversights (eg, saying that God is either impotent or evil is too smug a way to confront the theological problem of evil, thereby weakening what is otherwise a serious point). Which is a shame, I think, because a serious discussion about atheism would be interesting, all the more so because such things don't happen very often - emotions run high and, I'd claim, a common presumption against atheism is deeply entrenched (depends where you are and who you talk to, of course).

In such a discussion, I'd be raising an eyebrow right now at Haus interpretation Occam's Razor - if Occam always favours the "Descarte's Demon did it!" explanation, then it doesn't really have any content, does it?
 
 
Dragon
22:51 / 30.06.06
Some of you have assumed I think Christians are stupid. To the contrary, many are most probably as intelligent if not more so than anyone else. I suggest that they are better able to rationalize their beliefs.

Occam is usually mentioned in the context of the simplest explanation being more likely to be the correct one.

I'm looking for sophistication from theists. Thus far all arguments by theists I've seen have been refuted. Why should I be defensive? Why should I be giving arguments for atheism? Am I correct in inferring you disagree that the person making the assertion should back it up?

I'll tell you a snapshot about my childhood. When I was five years old, going to church (actually the kiddie room, where a nice lady read bible stories) I heard amazing things. Jesus made wine from water. He walked on water, too. A man blew a horn, knocking down a stone wall. A guy was in a whale's stomach for three days. A man and his wife built a huge boat and put pairs of every animal in the world in it to save them from the Flood. Jesus came back to life from death...you get the idea. Since this was coming from an adult, I couldn't dismiss it immediately, so I pondered these things for awhile. I eventually came to the conclusion that these were just tools for stories meant to convey some deeper meaning or morale. And, since the most amazing things were being told to us, I figured they were being used to 'hook' us. I was a fish that got away.

A year later, I was in the second grade, after moving to town from a two-room country school. Everybody went to "assembly", where we recited the Pledge. I immediately wondered what God had to do with the pledging allegience to the country, and why we had to pledge the same thing every day, instead of once.

The moral to that piece of my life, I thought was pretty sophisticated for a kid. Growing up, I found that arguments both ways got more complicated. At first I thought I could prove there was no god. It was awhile before I learned trying to do that that was a silly endeavor. Even theists (Christians) are a kind of atheist, are they not? They claim their god is The One And Only God, while the Islamist god is a myth. Of course, the Islamists believe the Christian or Jewish god is a myth. I personally tried to convince everybody that both versions were really the same god, just from different cultural viewpoints, but to no avail.
 
 
Jack Fear
23:59 / 30.06.06
Even theists (Christians) are a kind of atheist, are they not? They claim their god is The One And Only God, while the Islamist god is a myth.

You have been misinformed. It is the understanding of the vast majority of Christians, Jews, and Muslims, that we worship the same God; the three faiths are often referred to as the Abrahamic tradition, since they all trace their heritage back to the Biblical patriarch Abraham, who made the first covenant. Muslims revere Jesus as a divinely-inspired prophet—indeed, the last before Muhammed. Much of the Hebrew Torah (what Christians would call the Old Testament) is part of Muslim tradition, too. Because they share scriptures in common, the three faiths are also refrred to as People of the Book.

There are some reactionary Christianists who, largely for political reasons, try to draw a distinction between the Muslim Allah and the Judeo-Christian YHVH; but they're outliers.

This points up one of the problems with looking at a faith tradition from the outside—there's a very natural temptation to to draw conclusions about the faith as a whole from its most extreme wing-nut adherents, who may not in any way be arepresentative sampling but who tend to get a lot of publicity...
 
 
Lurid Archive
00:15 / 01.07.06
To the contrary, many [Christians] are most probably as intelligent if not more so than anyone else.

This is cringemaking, of the 'some of my best friends are...', mold. But lets just accept that religious affiliation doesn't correlate with stupidity and leave it at that.

I suggest that they are better able to rationalize their beliefs.

Humans are generally quite good at rationalisation, and if what you mean is that religious belief (Christianity, in particular?) is an expression of this, thats one thing. Most people would probably agree that there are cases where this is true, but it isn't clear that atheists are going to do all that well in these sorts of contest.

If, on the other hand, you are saying - and you seem rather close to this - that Christians (or the religious generally) have a particular knack for rationalisation, thats another position, which I don't think has a shred of support, to be honest.

I personally tried to convince everybody that both versions were really the same god, just from different cultural viewpoints, but to no avail.

While I'm sure that your history is very significant for you, you don't seem to be allowing that it is actually a fairly familiar sort of tale which isn't really going to carry much weight with a religious person. Largely because they have heard it often. Your quoted comment suggests that while your dealings with religion may have been awful, they probably weren't that broad. Believing that all the major monotheistic gods are the same is actually a fairly common view. If you spend some time reading around Barbelith, you'll see that there is essentially none of the small minded religious bigotry that I think you are arguing against.
 
 
Dragon
00:53 / 01.07.06
Thank you for your thoughs, I appreciate them. I've spoken to many Christians who believe their god is the only god. It seems all of my experience with Christians has been with the minority opinion. I naturally assumed that the Islamic viewpoint mirrored the Christian one in that respect. So much for my assumptions...

BTW, I truly didn't really mean an earlier comment to mean, "'...some of my best friends are...', mold..." I know that everyone is a member of Homo Sapien sapien, and, so by definition, they are the same. Please pardon any implication otherwise.

But my impression of most people of faith remains, that there is quite a bit of rationalization involved. Why? The answer is that I see no other way for such beliefs to survive. I hesitate to give examples. You (members of Barbelith) are obviously better read than many with whom I've spoken, so I imagine you would likewise avoid many of the arguments given by Christians in my experience, such as complexity and beauty.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:18 / 01.07.06
Dragon, are you of the opinion that your beliefs require no rationalization?
 
 
Dragon
01:19 / 02.07.06
Dragon, are you of the opinion that your beliefs require no rationalization? Yes, that is my opinion. I'm also aware that many theists also do not believe they require rationalization. If you believe I am rationalization-dependent, maybe you could pass on your thoughts about that. I'm curious.

BTW, I've wondered about the following: Isn't it a bit odd how there is an almost even split between democrats and republicans? Have you ever pondered why? Yet, between theists and atheists, there is a huge division. There must be something else going on, there, besides an analogous reason causing a division beween liberals and conservatives.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:48 / 02.07.06
Isn't it a bit odd how there is an almost even split between democrats and republicans? Have you ever pondered why? Yet, between theists and atheists, there is a huge division.

Help me out here, Sparky. You mean a numerical split?
 
 
Jack Fear
02:29 / 02.07.06
I think Dragon's referring to last few US Presidential elections, which have indeed been extremely close.

The thing to remember, though, Dragon, is that those perecentages don't necessarily reflect actuial numbers of either Democrats or Republicans. There's a big unaffiliated middle, people with no formal ties to any major (or minor) party, who vote for the Democratic or republican candidate because, well, they've got to vote for someone, haven't they?

I'm still unsure what this has to do with anything, though: Democrats and Republicans are not as diametrically opposed as theists and atheists.

On the other hand, maybe there is an analogy to be drawn. Of the two positions—theist and atheist—the atheist position seems to be the more absolute and hardline, more exclusionary, where the theist position is more of a "big tent"—encompassing hardcore religiosos with coherent theologies, Sunday-go-to-Meeting types, and Christmas-and-Easter slackers; loosey-goosey "spiritual" people; church elders, casual church-goers, and people who haven't seen the inside of a church in years; sympathetic agnostics and people who sort of believe in God, or a god.

In other words, the "theist" position occupies not just one end of the scale, but most of the unaffiliated middle as well.

I mean, you can kind of half-heartedly believe that there might be a God, while admitting the possibility that there isn't—which would make you a theist. Conversely, half-heartedly thinbking there might not be a God, while admitting the possibility that there might be, would also make you a theist.

Honest-to entropy atheism is not a casual or half-hearted thing, which is why you find relatively few of them: true believers are hard to come by.
 
 
Kerry Thornley
05:22 / 02.07.06
ou have been misinformed. It is the understanding of the vast majority of Christians, Jews, and Muslims, that we worship the same God;

Dragon's specific example wasn't important, but yes what phenomena he pointed out - the belief on a specific deity in most cases relies on the denial of a hundred other deities. Who is the correct one? How can we point it? Obviously, it's a decision based on our culture or maybe on personal terms. Cultural values are relative. Then... How to find the absolute through the relative? Many will base this decision on some sort of human innerent capability to recognize the truth. Even this way, we have to handle with the problem that we can't measure this sort of "truth".
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:07 / 02.07.06
Dragon, are you of the opinion that your beliefs require no rationalization?

Yes, that is my opinion. I'm also aware that many theists also do not believe they require rationalization. If you believe I am rationalization-dependent, maybe you could pass on your thoughts about that. I'm curious.


Well, the definition of rationalization I'm working with(though being in the UK I'd tend towards spelling it with an 's') is the cognitive process of making something seem consistent with or based on reason (via Dictionary.com). I don't see how your atheism is not the result of a cognitive process of making something seem consistent with or based on reason.

I'm not saying this is you and maybe it's because I'm agnostic but I find the position of atheists who claim that it is not a faith position to be baffling and surely mistaken.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:12 / 02.07.06
In other words, the "theist" position occupies not just one end of the scale, but most of the unaffiliated middle as well. - Jack Fear

I think this is interesting, since it highlights the way that a presumption for theism is very much part of the way people argue. This is entirely a framing of the debate, in my view, rather than a serious point about what a valid neutral position would be, since the deities that *are* considered unremarkable are chosen from a rather narrow band. Someone who worshipped, or was undecided about, Zeus would not usually be classed as part of some unremarkable mainstream. No, rather, the claim (I've heard people other than Jack make it) seems to me to be that a belief in the Jewish/Christian/Islamic god is something of a default position. Of course, once you phrase it that specifically, it starts to look much more like dogma than argument - that is, I don't think there is a particular presumption for believing in supernatural entitites on the basis of no evidence, rather there is a presumption for believing in particular ones, because their existence is self evidently reasonable.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:38 / 02.07.06
Someone who worshipped, or was undecided about, Zeus would not usually be classed as part of some unremarkable mainstream.

True, but neither could s/he be classed meaningfully as an atheist.

I'm a little confused: Do you think I'm rigging the argument to favor my position? Or is it the atheist side that's being dogmatic?
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:02 / 02.07.06

True, but neither could s/he be classed meaningfully as an atheist.


True. But as an atheist, I consider that my disbelief is largely directed toward the Abrahamic flavours of god...which is where most of the challenges I get come from. (Lots of atheists think this way, imho.)

No one I've spoken to seems to think that my atheism is at all remarkable with respect to other gods (which, in case I'm being misleading, I probably do disbelieve in...but it would depend). So, in that context, yes I do believe you are rigging the argument. Though it is a rigging that isn't really unique to you.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:23 / 02.07.06
No one I've spoken to seems to think that my atheism is at all remarkable with respect to other gods

That would make a good Temple thread.
 
 
Dragon
02:22 / 03.07.06
With my democrat-republican, atheist-theist examples, I was wondering if somehow we are "naturally inclined" to such positions due to some as yet undetermined reasons.

I'm not saying this is you and maybe it's because I'm agnostic but I find the position of atheists who claim that it is not a position to be baffling and surely mistaken.

Faith has a number of definitions, though I'm assuming the second one is close to the one you have in mind?

Jack, I wonder what the true believer ratio is between both extremes of the spectrum?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:33 / 03.07.06
(You might fancy editing your response there to put the 'faith' back in the quoting of my words BTW)

Faith has a number of definitions, though I'm assuming the second one is close to the one you have in mind?

Faith 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.


I think both one and two work quite well for us. Certainly no atheist can prove a theist wrong because the religious position has a number of safeguards in place to explain why that person couldn't call God down or manifest His powers. It's irritating but whatcanyoudo?

But you do have a 'confident belief' that anyone who believes in a deity is wrong, do you not?
 
 
Lurid Archive
07:08 / 03.07.06
Couple of points for Our Lady: Rationalisation, as I'm assumed it is being used here, is not the term covered by your quoted definition. It is the other one - the process whereby one conveniently justifies a position in a way that obscures one's actual motivations.

And, in response to

I'm not saying this is you and maybe it's because I'm agnostic but I find the position of atheists who claim that it is not a faith position to be baffling and surely mistaken.

I'd make the same point as above. Is the atheist occupying a faith position with regards to disbelief in Descarte's demon? Because if you say yes, then you are more or less saying that *any* position is a faith position - perfectly consistent, but not particular to atheists. And if not, then you might start to see that it is plausible to disbelieve something, even if one doesn't have a large neon sign above an empty box saying "Would be here if it existed". Again, as above, this type of discussion tends to be rather choosy about which kinds of disbelief get classed as faith, given that we all disbelieve in various entities.
 
  

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