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Moderating for taste

 
  

Page: 12(3)456

 
 
Quantum
14:08 / 14.05.06
on Christian message boards, where there's an explicit consensus that posters don't wish to encounter certain subjects (homosexuality, pro-choice viewpoints, masturbation, Darwinism, etc., etc.)

Gah, that sounds terrible and is certainly not where I'm going. The examples I put above were Personally what I, Quantum, might not want to see, not things to go on list of prosrcibed subjects. I would support modding a hypothetical horrid title if it caused loads of upset, but it would have to be pretty clear cut and generally agreed by a load of people, presumably after a decent thrashing out in the policy. If I'm wrong and there *is* a clear cut distinction to be drawn then that wouldn't apply, the board policy would clearly be that one is unacceptable bigotry and the other is free speech. I just don't see an obvious dividing line, as it's dependant on participants, context and such as you say.
 
 
Quantum
14:16 / 14.05.06
despite your earlier suggestion that 'slap in the face' thread titles ought to be moderated on the grounds that the "general public" might not want to read them, you're actually defending the status quo? No contradiction there?

I, personally, would support modding titles that caused widespread or intense distress. I think board policy should be dictated by the whole community, and if most people would be against that then we shouldn't adopt my preference. No contradiction, one is my preference, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to campaign for adopting it as policy. If we agree to never mod for taste, fair enough, at least the opposing view has been considered.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:41 / 14.05.06
Lula reckoned there was an issue around thread titles, and that a discussion should take place regarding whether we, as a community, want to read about certain topics - but now appears reluctant to firm up her earlier, tentative suggestions.

I'm not reluctant Ganesh, I'm just thinking about what you are saying here. The examples you give of what your Gran and your Aunt might find offensive compared with what I or Quantum do, clearly show that moderating 'offensive' titles is not something we should be doing. I can see why you are concerned.

However, the fact remains that some titles can stimulate pretty horrid visual images and some people don't like to have that happen to them.

So now I'm stuck. I'm thinking about it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:55 / 14.05.06
Just like to say I'm sorry I haven't been contributing, especially as I've been planning to start a thread based on a couple of comments I've seen recently about swearing- which I am obviously quite a fan of. (As Emma "Fucking" Goldman nearly said once, if I can't swear it's not my revolution).

A lot of good stuff here, though- I'd say I'm mostly in agreement with Mr Nesh (apart from the bits where he says "unpack", obviously).

I see no reason why people shouldn't contact a poster and tell them why they find a title offensive, or icky or whatever, and then the poster could change if they thought it appropriate, or could refuse if they thought not, or it could be discussed in Policy if it was really that much of a big deal. That's just common courtesy, really. Letting it become an issue for mods (assuming, of course, that the original poster is not using hatespeech, or trolling, or spamming, or any of the other things mentioned above which would make it a mod issue ANYWAY) would, I think, be taking a couple of steps in quite a worrying direction.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:10 / 14.05.06
I haven't been around since this thread was started, but since I was one of the people who expressed squick at Alex's thread title, I'd like to clarify that to me, squick is completely different from offence. As I understand it, the term 'squick' was developed in fandom specifically in order to describe a personal reaction to certain things without implying that those things are, in themselves, immoral or unacceptable, or that there is anything wrong with people who enjoy them (hmm, Wikipedia says I'm wrong about the origin, but also says that

Squick is also commonly used in fanfiction to refer to any topic covered in the writing that might cross the average person's tolerance/comfort boundaries, as well as to convey one's personal discomfort with material that others might not find objectionable.)

Anyway, the point of the word 'squick', to me, is that it refers to individual boundaries and personal discomfort. I would like to keep the words 'offence', 'offensive' and 'offended' for something much stronger and politically/morally/socially loaded than that: squick is for strong sexual and/or gross imagery, 'offence' is for hatespeech (instances where you don't want to be saying, in effect, that there's nothing wrong with people speaking and/or behaving in that way, it's just not for you). I think that's an important distinction - whether or not people are generally happy with using the terms 'squick' and 'offence' for the two different things, I think it would be a good idea to be clear about whether you want to let someone know that you personally don't like a turn of phrase/thread title/etc, so that they can take that personal reaction into account, or whether you actually want to challenge the language on the basis that it's not okay to say that.

Anyway, after all that... pretty much what Stoatie said. I'm a bit regretful that I raised my uncomfort with Alex's title in the 'moderator action' thread, rather than in the World Cup thread or directly with him by PM. Maybe better in the thread, so that people (like Ganesh in this instance) are alerted and can register their liking for the title. But anyway, I think it should be the thread starter's call whether they think the inventiveness and/or invectiveness of the title is worth causing a few people squick, or whether they'd rather have a less squicky title and save the colourful imagery for the inside of the thread.

PS: Something else that's surfacing from this thread (and that I've been thinking about increasingly since 'Feminism 101' and Shadowsax's banning): I'd like also to talk about the 'victim' question in some more depth (the point that's been made about 'stumpfucking' being offensive [in the strong sense] to 'notional amputees', while dead-dog-fellating doesn't even have a 'notional'... um, target or something), though I don't think this is the thread for it: while I agree that we need to keep in mind the idea that hatespeech does demonstrable harm to real, embodied people, I'm worried about a potential side-effect - increased policing of the relationship between offline embodiment and online speech acts. But I need to think about this more.
 
 
Ganesh
20:29 / 14.05.06
So. To me hatespeech is a boulder of evil, to be moderated. Offensive titles are pebbles of naughty, which I disapprove of. Somewhere on that spectrum is an area where the offence caused by a title is enough to moderate it (even against the author's will perhaps) even though it might not technically count as hatespeech.
I appreciate I have been vague on what's moddable and when it would be right to intervene, but that's because I don't think the issue is what I personally find ick, but whether there is a clear cut distinction to be drawn between these two categories.

So, are they completely different as smoothly seems to say? Or just different in intensity as I believe?


Quantum, I think you've been vague both on what's moddable and in terms of blurring the boundaries between these entities. I can appreciate, however, that if you're genuinely unable to perceive a qualitative difference, then that's why you're appearing inconsistent. Let me try to explain why I feel you're wrong.

Essentially, it's a matter of targets, or victims. Harassment, for example, is the persistent, repeated attacking (or, at the very least, pestering) of an individual. If another poster repeatedly sent me PMs stating my mother was a whore, for example, that would be harassment. Hatespeech also requires a target, or targets, although in this case it may be generalised to a subgroup rather than an individual. For example, if someone repeatedly stated that all homosexual people were spreaders of disease and ought to be criminalised, that would be hatespeech in which the target was me, as a member of the stigmatised subgroup (gay people).

'Ick', however, is not aimed at anybody; rather it's inferred by the reader. There is no intended target, no victim. No-one is being stigmatised, either individually or as part of a group. They've simply decided, for whatever reason, that they'd rather not see something. Simple subjective distaste.

We arguably have a right not to be attacked online, certainly not repeatedly, personally and/or as a member of a stigmatised subgroup. I contend that we don't have the right to never witness, even for a second, something we find distasteful.

So, not simply a quantitative matter of greater or lesser distress, but a qualitative matter or the presence or absence of a tangible target/victim.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:29 / 14.05.06
I've been thinking about which things make me feel uncomfortable when they are joked about but which are not necessarily considered to be 'offensive' per se, and I think that the common link between them is when things are 'done to' another person or being, generally without their consent, and generally with a more powerful being or older person in control.

So I find jokes about paedophilia problematic, bestiality, rape and sexual assault, necrophilia, things like that.

I don't know if that helps at all?

I would also like to say that this thread is about unacceptable topics for discussion and I have at no point suggested that we should not discuss things. I am all for discussion.

I seem to be quoted a lot in this thread, things which I have said which relate to the titles of threads are being posted here as if I said them about finding things unacceptable for discussion in general. That makes me feel uncomfortable and unsure about how best to interact with this thread.

I wanted to talk about titles of threads, not about whether we should ban certain topics for discussion.
 
 
Ganesh
20:30 / 14.05.06
I, personally, would support modding titles that caused widespread or intense distress.

How would you gauge intense distress?
 
 
Ganesh
20:44 / 14.05.06
However, the fact remains that some titles can stimulate pretty horrid visual images and some people don't like to have that happen to them.

And? I'm sorry to be so blunt, but this thread already contains numerous examples of the variety of "pretty horrid visual images" which different people might wish to avoid (including the word "fuck", references to homosexuality, etc.) and the question remains: can posters legitimately expect to be protected from encountering anything which might conceivably provoke "horrid visual images"? I'd say no. Posters can expect protection from repeated abuse, harassment, libel, etc. but not protection from potential unpleasant thoughts. It's different if someone's being repeatedly victimised (as in harassment, hatespeech, etc.) but if it's simply the possibility that they might experience incidental unpleasantness, then I don't think that's a 'right' anyone can reasonably expect.
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:56 / 14.05.06
I'd like also to talk about the 'victim' question in some more depth (the point that's been made about 'stumpfucking' being offensive [in the strong sense] to 'notional amputees', while dead-dog-fellating doesn't even have a 'notional'... um, target or something), - Deva

I've been thinking the same thing myself. I think that, as Deva says, while hatespeech is real and moderation worthy it isn't the only thing I would consider acting on. It hasn't been the basis for all the moderation I've done, certainly. The biggest example in my mind is when I modded to remove pictures (turning them to links) of aborted foetuses. I think it would be a stretch to say this was hate speech, and while it has been argued that this facilitated the functioning of the board, in my mind it only did so because the original posts were in such bad *taste*.

For example, if someone repeatedly stated that all homosexual people were spreaders of disease and ought to be criminalised, that would be hatespeech in which the target was me, as a member of the stigmatised subgroup (gay people). - Ganesh

Sure, thats true. But what about if there were no gay people on Barbelith? OK, thats maybe a silly hypothetical. But what if a certain group is being targeted, while that group isn't represented here? One could argue that, not knowing who exactly reads these pages, we should moderated for the potential victims of hatespeech.

That doesn't really work for me, and it just wouldn't seem like a particularly honest justification: I don't move to censor things about which I have no feeling on the grounds that it might potentially upset someone who may be reading it. Rather, even though I'm not the object of hatespeech directly, I can still find it offensive. But this kind of "offence" is, at least to my mind, in the same category as "taste"...to a different degree than not liking football, for example, but of a similar nature. I realise that this point of view means that all these decisions become difficult, and we leave ourselves open to the possibility that we do something analogous to censoring discussions of masturbation. But I really think that this is unavoidable - when we discuss anti-semitism, for instance, there is no doubt in my mind that Barbelith would reject pro-Zionist versions of the concept...we aren't bothered by certain potential versions of hatespeech, because of certain shared values. I think we do better to admit that there is an element of taste, subjectivity, point of view or whatever you want to call it to our moderation actions and let that help us decide what kind of place we want Barbelith to be - I think we may be more consistent for it.
 
 
Ganesh
21:01 / 14.05.06
I've been thinking about which things make me feel uncomfortable when they are joked about but which are not necessarily considered to be 'offensive' per se, and I think that the common link between them is when things are 'done to' another person or being, generally without their consent, and generally with a more powerful being or older person in control.

So I find jokes about paedophilia problematic, bestiality, rape and sexual assault, necrophilia, things like that.

I don't know if that helps at all?


It helps in terms of further explaining your distaste, but I don't think it legitimises that distaste in terms of making it actual offence, or harassment, etc. (I realise this isn't necessarily your aim). Of your list above, I think that jokes about paedophilia and rape could well amount to hatespeech, depending on their slant and circumstance, because paedophilia and rape involve a tangible human victim or victims. Bestiality and necrophilia involve animals and corpses, and while you might conceivably identify with these as victims, you are palpably not an animal or a corpse. I don't see the same potential for hatespeech.

It's perhaps worth pointing out that the Conversation already contains jokes about, off the top of my head, violently assaulting and killing people (adults and children), stabbing individuals in the face and rectally assaulting people with candles. It's perhaps in the nature of jokes to include a power imbalance. Should our eyes be protected from encountering some or all of these?

I would also like to say that this thread is about unacceptable topics for discussion and I have at no point suggested that we should not discuss things. I am all for discussion.

Okay, I accept that. It might be more reasonable to say you previously speculated about the possibility that certain topics might be found, after discussion, to be unacceptable for mention on Barbelith.

I wanted to talk about titles of threads, not about whether we should ban certain topics for discussion.

Talk about the titles of threads, then: what would you like to say about them?
 
 
Ganesh
21:17 / 14.05.06
Lurid: I agree that it's not clear-cut, and part of my intention in starting this thread was/is to elaborate on possible differences and distinctions. In terms of 'modworthiness', I'd tend to have a relatively low threshold for intervention where there's a clear target and that target is tangibly represented on Barbelith (gay people). At the other end of the scale, I'd have a very high threshold for intervention where there's no clear target (dead dogs). In-between, I think it's a matter of judgement calls based on individual assessment of the likelihood of potential abuse: for example, I'd see it as more likely that Barbelith includes individuals who might've undergone late-stage abortion and be seriously distressed by pictures of aborted foetuses than that Barbelith includes amputees who might be seriously distressed by the word "stumpfucking". This assessment is based approximately on my subjective understanding of the statistical likelihood of both eventualities and also my recollection of Barbelith precedent (eg. have we ever had someone identify as an amputee and express a strong dislike of the term "stumpfucking", etc., etc.).

Roughly speaking, that's the process I use for in-between judgement calls. It's highly imperfect, but I think it's less imperfect than moderating according to the notion of taste.
 
 
Ganesh
21:24 / 14.05.06
... when we discuss anti-semitism, for instance, there is no doubt in my mind that Barbelith would reject pro-Zionist versions of the concept...we aren't bothered by certain potential versions of hatespeech, because of certain shared values. I think we do better to admit that there is an element of taste, subjectivity, point of view or whatever you want to call it to our moderation actions and let that help us decide what kind of place we want Barbelith to be - I think we may be more consistent for it.

I take your point (and I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to mention the anti-Semitic precedent), but I'd contend that there's still a qualitative difference between comments or titles involving a potential victim/legitimately offended party (Jewish people posting on Barbelith) and those involving no potential victim/legitimately offended party (dead dogs posting on Barbelith). In my own case, pretty much any moderation intervention I undertook would be informed by the question "is someone being victimised here?"
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:25 / 14.05.06
can posters legitimately expect to be protected from encountering anything which might conceivably provoke "horrid visual images"? - Ganesh

Qalyn the other day asked me, rhetorically, if I thought Barbelith was like a speaking corner or someone's living room. Its a good question, I think because it outlines the different standards we have for speech quite effectively. I have a lot of sympathy for free speech arguments in the public arena. I even think, and this may explain in what way I differ in these issues from others here, that arguments to curb speech based on the harm produced by hatespeech are rather limited in that general context. (I would just about admit that inciting violence should be illegal, but only if the incitement is fairly explicit).

So, for me, the standards applied to Barbelith are already somewhere between an entirely public space and a living room. Deciding what is and what isn't hatespeech is already a political decision which is, to a certain extent, in conflict with freedom of speech. So, to answer your question Ganesh, posters don't have a right to be protected from anything they might find horrible. But then again, I also think it is somewhat legitimate to decide that certain things should be acted on (not always censored, necessarily) because...Barbelith is the kind of place that doesn't like that flavour of horrible.
 
 
Ganesh
21:28 / 14.05.06
But then again, I also think it is somewhat legitimate to decide that certain things should be acted on (not always censored, necessarily) because...Barbelith is the kind of place that doesn't like that flavour of horrible.

So... which things do you think should be acted on (aside from Tom's list in the first post), and how? And who should be involved in such a decision?
 
 
Ganesh
21:37 / 14.05.06
Before I forget, I also meant to engage with Deva's point

PS: Something else that's surfacing from this thread (and that I've been thinking about increasingly since 'Feminism 101' and Shadowsax's banning): I'd like also to talk about the 'victim' question in some more depth (the point that's been made about 'stumpfucking' being offensive [in the strong sense] to 'notional amputees', while dead-dog-fellating doesn't even have a 'notional'... um, target or something)

and agree that yes, this is problematic - not least in the manifestation of people explicitly saying, "I'm so offended by X that I'm leaving unless something is done" and a degree of weight being placed on that. It's a tricky tightrope to walk.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:10 / 14.05.06
I'd tend to have a relatively low threshold for intervention where there's a clear target and that target is tangibly represented on Barbelith (

Pondering on this and wondering, how influential is/should the 'tangible representation' of a group be?

Ie, I think that some of the ongoing discussions around board dynamic, speech acts and criteria for censure have raised this.

Where are our various levels of intervention set where there is a clear target of whom we are unaware as to what degree they are represented.

This isn't simply pickiness, but an attempt to query the grounds on which we intervene, and to look at where what Deva calls 'victim status' fits into decisions of moderation from another angle.

As, as 'nesh points out several posts ago, different dynamics emerge when people say 'I am a victim of x comment aimed at y subset of people', which a)offers a clear argument but b)carries with it an assumption that the onus is on a member of a 'victim' group to make that challenge and c)that we do not intervene where no-one is willingly to identify pubiclity as having/does not have personal identification with an 'attack'.

Ie where speech is aimed at against indviduals/groups who appear not to be on Barbelith, do we ignore it, even if it's falling into 'hatespeech' category/not look past the end of our own noses?

As I'm profoundly uncomfortable with that, insofar as it relates to how Barbelith culture evolves its standards/norms.
 
 
Ganesh
22:30 / 14.05.06
Where are our various levels of intervention set where there is a clear target of whom we are unaware as to what degree they are represented.

It's the Million Euro Question, really, isn't it? Or one of them, anyway. In practice, I think it's a judgement call, and I suspect individual moderators assess the situation very differently. For me, it's a sort of balance of probabilities, almost an actuarial decision: in the case of "stumpfucking" and amputees, for example, I'd have to ask myself something along the following lines:

a) is the word "stumpfucking" instrinsically offensive to amputees?

(In order to gauge this, I'd need to think about my Real Life direct contact with amputees, as well as anything I've read about terms which amputees consider offensive. In this case, I draw a whopping blank. Some situations are easier for me, for example having a good sense of how the term "schizo" can be viewed by people with psychiatric disorders.)

b) have we any reliable way of finding out?

(The obvious one would be to take the lead from anyone on Barbelith who identified themselves as an amputee. I agree that there are problems inherent in expecting to be 'educated' in this way by members of the potentially-stigmatised subgroup, but it's possibly the fastest route to shedding light on possibly-offensive judgement calls - and one reason for the various 101 threads.)

and

c) what's the likelihood of this causing serious offence?

(Here, I'm afraid that yes, I do consider whether a target group is tangibly represented on Barbelith - in a relative way. For example, if there were posters who'd identified themselves as amputees, I'd consider the possibility of offence to be higher than if there were none, and we were talking hypotheticals. Even when we're talking hypothetically, though, there's still a degree of statistical humming and hawing. In the case of the necro-fido-doodah, I decided that the likelihood of offended zombie dogs posting on Barbelith was nil, so legitimate 'offence' - as opposed to distaste - was negligible.)

I'm sure we all approach these situations differently, and I'd be interested in hearing about other moderators' methods.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:47 / 15.05.06
Ie where speech is aimed at against indviduals/groups who appear not to be on Barbelith, do we ignore it, even if it's falling into 'hatespeech' category/not look past the end of our own noses?

I think the answer to this is "no" - we've banned Holocaust deniers despite no objections from victims of or descendants of victims of the Holocaust. On the other hand, this probably doesn't help us either with dead dogs or s-fing.

Sooo... I don't think there is a necessary expectation that somebody come forward. However, in doutful or contested cases it may be useful to clarifying the arguments for or against if people share a variety of feelings from a number of viewpoints including those of the victim group itself. For example, in the case of Absence of Gravity's anti-Sinti humour, we found people with links to the Sinti community on both sides of the palings, and both perspectives were useful.
 
 
Quantum
13:40 / 15.05.06
I'm finding Deva's distinction especially useful, squick as opposed to offence. I was thinking of the subjective experience of a reader feeling distressed, mildly or strongly, without considering the difference between 'I don't like that' and 'That's an unacceptable thing to say at all'.

Ganesh's distinction between harrassment and victim-less squick is also enlightening me, although as mentioned the notional offendee is an issue. The posts and threads we moderate at the moment are all reflections of relatively common bigotry in the wider world (anti-semitism, homophobia) which we want to guard carefully against, and I think squicky things aren't ever going to fall in that category because they're not targetted in the same way.

Having clarified the difference in my own mind, I'd maintain there *could* be a situation where we might want to moderate a squicky title, for example if the author were suspected of choosing it just to cause trouble. Any instance I can think of, though, would be on the grounds of the poster's trollish behaviour as opposed to the title itselelf. To echo Ganesh subjective personal distaste isn't sufficient reason alone.

Any concerns I have are being ably explored by other posters-
"I'd like also to talk about the 'victim' question in some more depth" Deva
"where speech is aimed at against indviduals/groups who appear not to be on Barbelith, do we ignore it?" GGM
"It's the Million Euro Question, really, isn't it?" Ganesh
"Barbelith is the kind of place that doesn't like that flavour of horrible." Lurid
 
 
Quantum
14:02 / 15.05.06
Addendum- I think especially where Lurid points out that we do mod according to taste to some extent, reflecting shared values on the board. If *everyone* finds something really squicky it's more likely to be modded, let's be honest with ourselves.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
16:11 / 15.05.06
Fuck it. (!) This thread is driving me crazy and nearly the only way I can express myself right now is in pretty Head-Shoppy language. Apologies to those who are going to skim this because it's too dense.

Applause for the people who are trying to make a disinction between 'offence' and 'squick'. Don't need to say much about that. But I'm beginning to think that 'hatespeech' is possibly the worst way to think through the problem of what can, and should, be said/written on Barbelith, and how to moderate the standards of what is 'acceptable' text. I'm saying 'text' because I think that hatespeech is about voice, physical proximity, rather than text on a messsageboard. But that's not my only issue with 'hatespeech'. To me, you can't quantify 'offence' or any kind of phobia, or "words that shouldn't be said" together in the one category. Sexism does not work like homophobia; neither works, textually or otherwise, like anti-semitism or "revisionist history". Further, two instances of homophobia do not work like each other. Each works differently according to context, according to the details, according to the substance of what is said and the various different meanings the text is assigned, according to who responds and how and why. There is no universal rule for how to 'respond' to these instances of what (someone/s believe) should not be said. I don't know whether this makes sense, but for those reasons, I think it's quite urgent that people stop talking about 'the prevention of hatespeech' as if it's a singular entity that can be fought with a singular or universal strategy.

I'm also quite uncomfortable with the distinctions and slippages being made between 'hatespeech aimed towards a non-sentient object' and 'hatespeech where no-one is around to be offended.' When people make claims about the fact that amputees will be offended by 'stump fucking' references, I wish the person saying this would stop using amputees as a rationalisation for wanting 'stump fucking' not to be written. Because, in a way by doing this you also take on the role of 'channel' for people who are not present and whose opinions cannot be canvassed. That has dodgy political implications too.

I don't want to make it the responsibility of 'the victims' of 'what should not be said' to have to articulate offence. But doesn't phobia and discrimination hurt everyone? Is 'victim' status always premised on the basis of identity? I'm not sure the 'harms' done in such cases can be quantified in the one person, let alone calculating who is harmed and who is not.

Argh, this whole thing is difficult and makes my brane melty. I'm gonna go watch an episode of Veronica Mars.
 
 
Cat Chant
11:12 / 16.05.06
When people make claims about the fact that amputees will be offended by 'stump fucking' references, I wish the person saying this would stop using amputees as a rationalisation for wanting 'stump fucking' not to be written... Is 'victim' status always premised on the basis of identity?

THANK YOU OMG THANK YOU that is exactly what I was trying to get at. (Warning: rambling post follows.)

I was thinking about this recently, when I was co-teaching with a woman whose style and vocabulary made the classroom a very heteronormative, binary-gendered place. When I've talked about it, there's been a temptation - to which I've succumbed - to frame my problem with it in terms of the exclusion of me (and, potentially, of any queer students). Like: and so X would say 'We'd all like a handsome boyfriend, wouldn't we, girls?' and I would be like SITTING. RIGHT. HERE. But actually, it's not about me sitting right there. And I was thinking about this one day when I read one of those 'PC Gone Mad!!' articles about a student groups' pressure to desegregate toilets at some US university, which was couched in this kind of 'well, obviously, that's a nice idea, but we don't actually have any trans students, so we shouldn't do it'.

And I think this is what I mean. That, whether there are any trans students or not, the point of desegregating toilets is to say that it's not okay for people to feel justified in policing people's access to pissing technology on the basis of their gender presentation. Those acts of policing are invisible to most normatively gendered people, but that doesn't mean they don't go on. It's not just trying to make visiting the bathroom safe for non-normatively-gendered people, it's trying to deprivilege the binariness of normative gender by saying that you can't have the success or the naturalness of your gender confirmed to you by your VIP-style swanning past the invisible-to-you barrier to the men's/women's toilet. And the same in the classroom situation: it's not about whether I'm sitting right there, or whether there is or is not a queer or questioning student in the class who may or may not be made to feel unsafe by heteronormative remarks. It's about saying, your access to the information and learning in this class is not made easier by your conformity to compulsory heterosexuality.

Similarly with the amputees. It's not about whether someone with an amputated limb might one day come onto barbelith, see the stump-fucking thread, and leave in horror: it's about whether we want to say this thread only is open to you on the basis that you are able to treat stump-fucking as something that is inherently and deliciously icky. (The s-fing thread is actually a bad example, because it was oddly framed and I never read it anyway. Never mind. Sorry. Onwards.)

Anyway, the question about on what basis threads are accessible is still an open question, I think - it's not that every thread can be framed in such a way as to open it to everyone in the whole world. But this is as far as I've got on my thinking about how to frame these debates and make these ethical decisions without constantly having to tie those beliefs and feelings and decisions to a specific type of body/identity. Which I feel very suspicious and worried about. I know that the position from which someone speaks [sorry, Mr D, writes] is a huge part of the performative force of their statement - a huge part of what their writing does. But I think most of the time we can (and do) take that into account without, um, reifying that position or bringing in a notional amputee in whose name we say that we don't want the words stump-fucking to be written.

(It's a live issue for me at the moment because I know that I and several of the other female-identified posters on Barbelith who have been mobilized around the Feminism 101 thread, its fallout, the Woman-Friendly Barbelith thread, etc, have very different ideas of what it is to be 'a woman' and on what terms/basis we write 'as women', and I'm concerned that some of those positions are being lost and spoken-for in a way that might become very policing.)

And finally: sorry about the imperfections and ramblingness in this post. If I don't post relatively fast at the moment, though, I won't post at all.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:39 / 16.05.06
I agree with both of you but I think, since you're criticising something I've said that I should tell you that my closest friend has a stump where there once was a finger. So it wasn't hypothetical for me, I don't want her to read that shit and feel weird about her loss of mutant power (if it really is that shit, which it wasn't but it could have been).
 
 
Cat Chant
16:54 / 16.05.06
Nina - I didn't mean to suggest that, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that the problem was that you were speaking for hypothetical amputees when you were speaking up for a real-life friend (I can see where my post would have looked like that, though*). The point I was trying to make was that it can be counterproductive to insist that the only way of dealing with offensive language/statements is to speak as or in the name of a 'victim'/target of that language, especially if you tie that victim position to a certain type of body, identity and/or experience. Um. Which is not to say that speaking as a member of a minority group is always speaking as a victim: I'm trying to get at quite a specific set of argumentative steps: the idea that something's offensive/liable for moderation or deletion** insofar as it does harm to members of oppressed groups, and therefore that it can only be opposed by or in the name of the embodied experience of that oppressed group. I'm still trying to figure this stuff out, though, so I'm not sure how clear I'm getting it, either in my head or in this post...

*I posted in haste, as I said, and I think I left in a few 'you's where I meant to go back and change them to 'I's or 'we's, which might be part of the problem there.

**avoiding "hatespeech" for the reasons Mr Disco's outlined
 
 
Ganesh
17:54 / 16.05.06
Deva, I think I'm coming around to saying that I'd use the 'victim/target' rule of thumb only really inasmuch as I'd insist that if no human 'victim/target' can be identified - even notionally - then 'offence' is too strong a term to use. It's sort of the negative 'no victim' aspects of the 'victim' argument. Perhaps it's the only part of the 'victim' reasoning that's of practical use here?
 
 
Ganesh
18:32 / 16.05.06
I agree that there's only so far "I've got a friend who..." will go, and I'm slightly wary of making such points myself (although I'm sure I have done in the past) - unless said friends have explicitly discussed with me the extent of their offendedness with the terms "stumpfucking" or "ass-candling" or "faceknives" or whatever. I think the advice of Real Life friends carries some weight, especially if it can be demonstrated that Term X is widely reviled among Subgroup Y, but I suppose I do start to share the anxieties of those who've talked about the difficulties of individuals representing populations. See also the problem of moveable offendedness exemplified by my offended-by-the-word-"homo" aunt, etc., etc.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:33 / 16.05.06
Deva it's okay, it wasn't a response only to you I just thought I should make my position clear when people were referring to a comment that I had made elsewhere.

Ganesh, I think that when you're close enough to be a confidante to someone and they express their difference to you they're handing something over to you and that is the capacity, the responsibility to guard against people making them less than ideal and less than average. It's not about terms that they have expressed to you as being offensive, it's about statements that you know would affect them negatively because they emphasise their difference and make it something that is contrary to everyday humanity. That kind of speech is more offensive to me than a direct insult because I think it has more capacity to hurt in the long term.

The problem with moderation for me is the issue of sensitivity. If we want to be sensitive, if we want this space to be at all caring then we have to moderate each case with a view to its affect on people as well as to the overview. I'm not saying that we have to do this or that I do it. This is just a message board, it's not a safe space, I don't want it to be one but I worry that we consistently lose sight of the fact that there are individuals, sitting at their computers and reading. That's not to say that I disagree with what Deva is saying at all, specifically I think this is absolutely right, the idea that something's offensive/liable for moderation or deletion** insofar as it does harm to members of oppressed groups, and therefore that it can only be opposed by or in the name of the embodied experience of that oppressed group. I don't believe that oppression only oppresses the victimised group and it implies that we're moderating with only our direct knowledge, which is something to guard against. But to moderate with a view to groups and individuals does not equate with only in the name of the victim or the group because really it's for all people to act in that way.
 
 
Ganesh
19:48 / 16.05.06
Ganesh, I think that when you're close enough to be a confidante to someone and they express their difference to you they're handing something over to you and that is the capacity, the responsibility to guard against people making them less than ideal and less than average. It's not about terms that they have expressed to you as being offensive, it's about statements that you know would affect them negatively because they emphasise their difference and make it something that is contrary to everyday humanity. That kind of speech is more offensive to me than a direct insult because I think it has more capacity to hurt in the long term.

I broadly accept that, but I think there are also problems with assuming a knowledge that Statement X would affect someone negatively - and, by extension, affect a subgroup negatively. It's difficult enough generalising from one's relationship with a single individual when one has discussed the subject specifically and explicitly with them. When one hasn't, one adds an extra 'remove'.

For example, I know people who've been anally raped. I've never discussed the term "ass-candling" with them and, frankly, I'm uncertain whether, individually, they'd find it funny or offensive. I'd be extremely loathe to make that assumption on the part of one or all of them.
 
 
Ganesh
19:55 / 16.05.06
The problem with moderation for me is the issue of sensitivity. If we want to be sensitive, if we want this space to be at all caring then we have to moderate each case with a view to its affect on people as well as to the overview. I'm not saying that we have to do this or that I do it. This is just a message board, it's not a safe space, I don't want it to be one but I worry that we consistently lose sight of the fact that there are individuals, sitting at their computers and reading.

Again, however, this brings us up against the My Aunt situation, the fact that being sensitive to the possible effect of our words on people - especially notional people, or people whose opinions we have gauged rather than explicitly solicited - means we either decide to blanket-censor (I'm aware of people who'd claim offence at expressions of violence, sexuality - particularly non-heterosexual, 'cuss words', religious irreverence and criticism of the Bush administration) or we decide that some notional offendedness carries more weight than other notional offendedness (which is where I think Lurid was going).

Perhaps some notional offendedness is considered of more 'worth' on Barbelith; I don't discount this. If this is the case, though, I think it needs thorough unpicking/unpacking/unpucking.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:57 / 16.05.06
This is where we have to fall back on accepting that we have certain non-negotiable moral or political positions that are a barbelith consensus. There are some: that human sexuality can be expressed here freely if it does no harm (not in the sense that it could cause offense but actually does no harm), that extreme generalisation of racial groups is incompatible with this space.

I recognise this to the extent that I have been actively trying to broaden those non-negotiables so they include misogyny and I think others have suggested that less overt racism should be less acceptable than it currently is. Offence can't be accepted on its own as something to conclusively moderate in response to (I don't include locking, which could potentially be used as a positive tool - locking can stop threadrot and is a far better tool than deletion of individual's posts after the argument). However if someone complains about offence from a personal point of view (victim or not) we should retain the ability to ask whether it fits into the category of what is non-negotiable and juggle it around a bit. The question for me is whether we actually need a new moderation mechanism for that and I'm not sure we do or if it's workable within the current structure of barbelith.
 
 
Ganesh
21:27 / 16.05.06
This is where we have to fall back on accepting that we have certain non-negotiable moral or political positions that are a barbelith consensus. There are some: that human sexuality can be expressed here freely if it does no harm (not in the sense that it could cause offense but actually does no harm), that extreme generalisation of racial groups is incompatible with this space.

I agree with you, but I'd contend that Barbelith tends more to see certain modes of interaction (harassment, abuse, etc.) as beyond the pale rather than certain moral/political positions; the only real precedent for the latter (albeit an influential one) is the expulsion of people wanting to discuss Holocaust denial from an "I think this is true" viewpoint. This has cast a long shadow, but I'm not sure that it's particularly advanced us in terms of establishing non-negotiable moral/political positions which should be treated similarly. I think it's possibly truer to say that, beyond a certain point, certain moral/political positions are sometimes seen as overlapping with the 'outlawed' modes of interaction (eg. the previous instance of Holocaust denial was, I think, viewed at least partially as abuse/harassment on the grounds that posters contacted Tom and said they were leaving) - although I'd question this as a good way of approaching things.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
05:49 / 17.05.06
Thanks for clarifiying that you were speaking up for a friend, Nina, that makes it much more understandable. (And I'm sorry for not quoting you and providing a link to the thread, to provide context myself.)

Argh. No time to post more now, I'll have to come back.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:42 / 17.05.06
Can I just jump in at this point and remind people that although this may or may not be an issue for moderation, it can absolutely be a place for debate and argument. People can be angry about something happening, and exert social pressures, like indicating that the person concerned has lost their respect. They can even flame or shout, although within certain boundaries I would suggest. We can't abstract out all social norms into code or process. It's okay to disagree, it's okay to get cross. A post like, "Pretty offended by this right now - not going to take it to moderation, but I think you need to think about whether or not this is the kind of thing you want users on the board to have no choice about whether they see this or not. I think it's completely inappropriate and I'd really ask you to stop" is okay! And if the argument, "Dude, free speech and stuff!" appears in response, then it's okay again to go, "You're ignoring the question - do you think this is the kind of thing that you want users of the board to have no choice about what they see. I'm not censoring you, I'm asking you to be responsible." For example. Etc. etc.

My first impression is that the title's a bit dumb and that the ideal mechanism would be that a mod or whoever would send the writer of the post a PM before it got onto the board for debate, suggesting that they change it themselves, or asking if they'd mind if it was changed. If they object and the mod or the board feels really strongly about it, then perhaps we get to this state and have this conversation. I suspect if appropriately broached, people won't mind too much. I should also say that although I don't think moderation actions should be uniformly applied on the board in matters of taste, I don't think it's a bad thing for people to propose them working on the principle that other mods should veto moves if they think they're inappropriate.

Does that help or clarify at all? Maybe we need to write this stuff down more rigorously.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:04 / 17.05.06
Ganesh said:

if no human 'victim/target' can be identified - even notionally - then 'offence' is too strong a term to use

I'd agree with that. I don't think the terms offence/offensive/etc are useful or meaningful as descriptors of personal reactions, and their use has to have a strong political dimension - that is, something is only offensive if it's working on and through an existent social formation of power/unpower. (Eg a blanket homophobic/misogynistic/racist statement carries a sort of threat, through its location in a broad social context in which people do suffer discrimination and violence on the grounds of sexuality/sex/race: a statement about dead-dog-fellating hasn't got that sort of current to plug into.)


Nina, I really liked what you had to say (especially the bit Ganesh quoted) and this in particular:

to moderate with a view to groups and individuals does not equate with only in the name of the victim or the group

is important, I think - it's not that I think we should lose sight of real groups/individuals, or talk as if we can abstract out all these issues into coherent linguistic 'rules' for Barbelith posters. I guess what I'm worried about is what Ganesh puts his finger on (his trunk on?) - the overlap/interaction between modes of interaction and moral/political positions. More on this later (perhaps).
 
  

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