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Moderating for taste

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
11:20 / 25.09.06
That is, I'm not ruling out the possibility that I've totally missed the bus, here, but I simply don't understand, still, why, to my reading, the request for more information was met with what appeared to be such instant truculuence and growing hostility. I just don't understand. That is, I simply don't comprehend what's going on in that thread that supports the idea that I am promulgating the "wrong idea" - how that situation was resolved, or how this similar one might seek to be resolved.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
12:05 / 25.09.06
OK. I've been avoiding "telling" not "showing" ever since miss wonderstar raised hir concerns in the "Racism?" thread, because I thought the ensuing conversation was VERY revealing and hope people would be able to work it all out themselves using "text, intent, and context". Please note, I also repeatedly asked people exactly why they felt uncomforatble, but nobody could give me a clear answer that didn't involve the assumption that I was using Jamaican patois, which was a false assumption. Indeed, as an aside, it seems odd that people forget that not all Jamaicans are black, but that's an issue for another thread, later. Racism?

However, (even despite my previous, long, patient, and exhaustive comments and also those of redtara's in the "Racism?" thread) I fear that some people just aren't going to make the semiotic leap without a nudge. Therefore:

It was UK "youthspeak". It's a register used by many young people up and down the country. Like any "youthspeak" it pisses off the adults, who can't get their heads round it. And I like that. And before you say it, I also have no ageist-type issues either, because I realise that prejudice is something we are taught from birth, and that this isn't cured easily at a stroke, it's requires constant attention and reassesment, no matter what "demographic" you like to put yourself in or how liberal you like to think you are.

Haus, I don't know what your social spheres are like. I have close friends of different ages, classes, religions, nationalities, sexualities, etc; whom I love dearly. It's something I've done on purpose, consciously. And I borrow their cultural lingo all the time; as they borrow from others themselves. e.g. I use "non?", but I'm not French; "I use "y'all" but I'm not from the South of the US.

IMHO, it's ironic that the complete use of an UK urban register provokes such confusion on this board, a board that frowns on (e.g) text-speak and encourages what I'd losely call "academia-speech" -- I use that register when I'm on this board, because I feel I would be metaphorically torn to shreds without doing so.

But the minute I let that veil drop...


So, back on the initial topic in hand: is using "Jesus Christ!" as an act of anger, disdain, despair, disrespectful to Christians and Christianity if one isn't a Christian?
 
 
Olulabelle
12:42 / 25.09.06
PW, just so I can be clear in my head, are you saying that you were imitating UK youthspeak and that you often do so IRL, but that you very rarely use it here on Barbelith because you feel that you will be judged for it?

And that in 'judging' you for it by discussing it we have, in a way, proved your point?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:45 / 25.09.06
Rather, than, for example, being reminded uncannily of Adam Buxton in Time Trumpet?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
12:46 / 25.09.06
Yes, although I wouldn't say it is imitating, so much as exaggerating my own natural multi-cultural register, one which changes depending on time and cultural influence (i.e. how long I've lived somewhere).

Same as I'm kind exaggerating the academic-register which I've been taught through state education.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
12:47 / 25.09.06
(The last post in response to Olulabelle.)
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
12:50 / 25.09.06
Rather, than, for example, being reminded uncannily of Adam Buxton in Time Trumpet?

Changing your stance again, Haus? I thought it reminded you of Jamaican patois. Hmm.. I'll go back and re-read that thread...
 
 
illmatic
12:58 / 25.09.06
I've got to say that one of the main reasons I departed from the board previously, PW, was because of your contribtions to Policy. Or rather, your contributions and the insane amount of time it takes afterward minstering to them. I come back a few weeks later and, my Lord, you're doing it again. Only it's worse this time. To be fair, it's not just you, but these pointless, "disconnected-to-the-real-world", circular arguments drive me insane.

I have no idea of what point you are trying to prove here (with your assertations about use of the J word), or with your use of patois, or with the "nicknackpaddywack" thread. I sort of follow your "logic" but I really cannot understand what the fucking point is. All I can assume is that you have far too much time on your hands and arguing on Barbelith is somehow proving therapeutic to you.

If this is really what people want to talk about I feel Tom should pull the plug now. Can you not see how much of people's time and energy you are wasting? I feel really sorry for Haus and the others who feel duty bound to try and engage with you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:59 / 25.09.06
Changing your stance again, Haus? I thought it reminded you of Jamaican patois.

No, Paranoidwriter. I pointed out above that I had not said that about six posts up, as I did in the thread itself. I am so tired of you not paying attention to what other people write. I am also tired of the way you pull this stuff and then wander off - you still haven't apologised for the last time you called me a racist on false pretences, and already I find you doing it again - before finding a new and exciting cause and coming back to demand more attention from the Policy, at the expense of things actually getting done.

Ironically, the urge to say "Jesus Christ" is now almost overwhelming.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
13:01 / 25.09.06
Erm.. Did I call you a racist? Are you reading what I type?

Maybe, if you're tired, you could wander off and come back to this with fresh eye?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:07 / 25.09.06
Indeed, as an aside, it seems odd that people forget that not all Jamaicans are black, but that's an issue for another thread, later. Racism?

Since you were at that time also saying that my "stance" was in some way connected with Jamaica, yes, you were calling me a racist, or, if you'd rather, insinuating that my position was a racist one.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
13:07 / 25.09.06
Pegs, I'm sorry if you feel that I'm the reason for your disatisfaction on Barbelith. Sincrely.

I would like to point out that Haus raised the 'Racism?' thread here, Miss wonderstar started the ball rolling in the 'Racism?' thread itself. And before that, well, I'll let the record decide; it's rather a long one, after all.

Also, I made a polite and ( i believe) valid point in the Moderating Temple thread, out of genuine concern and inerest in moderation-type issues. I also stated that I was keen to have others explain whether I should be concerned or not. However, Mordant then posted in anger in reply (ze had to go and rub lavender oil in hir temples afterwards, apparently)...

So, Barbelith? Am I THE problem?

Does any plug really need to be pulled?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:24 / 25.09.06
According to the NRSV, (sorry, can't find my King James at the mo) the commandment in question reads You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

Thus making it quite a different proposition from blanket statements such as You shall not murder (interesting translation, in that "murder" as different from "kill" is a different proposition again... hmm...) in that here we are talking about "the Lord your God", not "God", "Yahweh" and especially not "Jesus", this being the Old Testament.

The implication, of course, being that this refers to YOUR God- addressed to the Israelites, this of course meant Yahweh, and could easily be read as a plea- well, a commandment, at any rate- for respect. Nowhere I can find does it say one should not allow the non-believers to do so- the caveat the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name seems to me to be saying this is a matter between the individual and "the Lord", who will Himself take care of any problems arising from people ignoring this instruction.
 
 
illmatic
13:29 / 25.09.06
Also, I made a polite and ( i believe) valid point in the Moderating Temple thread, out of genuine concern and inerest in moderation-type issues.

Well, firstly, you never contribute to The Temple. Why then are you contributing to a thread about its moderation? Secondly, I don't believe it was valid. I think it was, as Quatum said, and others have expressed with varying degrees of exsaperation, ridiculous. Thirdly, I believe that this a typical pattern that you seem to follow in Policy, which wastes the time and tries the patience of many others who might be making a valid contribution elsewhere.

As for your use of patois, references to Jamica etc, due to my own family histtory, I actually find these really fucking offensive. I don't understand and don't care to understand, why you are bringing it up, or what point you trying to prove. Sweet nothing times fuck all, as far as I can tell.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
13:34 / 25.09.06
Thanks, Stoat. That goes a long way to answering my initial concern.

I will try to get hold of and my Christian friends/family what they think of all this and come back with any extra pertinent info.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
13:36 / 25.09.06
(Sorry, forgot the word "ask" in the post above.)
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:39 / 25.09.06
Please don't.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:39 / 25.09.06
Also (apologies for posting twice, but I'm talking about two different subjects here) pw... (and note, I'm not having a pop at you personally- I generally stick up for you when I think you're in the right, but on this one I really think you're on a hiding to nothing)- it's kind of hard to take seriously your point, whatever it may be, about the registers, given that, when picked up on it, you claimed this is all a distraction from the main issue, which is that... ("that" being the DM birthday issue), when the person who had picked you up on it was wonderstarr, who had little or nothing to do with the argument referred to. Given that, unless you're suggesting some behind the scenes conspiracy in which Fly contacted wonderstarr and asked hir to bump a thread, it's completely understandable why people think you're just looking for a fight, or at least to regain some argue points.

(Note- the DM birthday issue was one I agreed with you on, so please don't see this as me doing the same thing people are seeing in your actions).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:39 / 25.09.06
Glad the Bible stuff was helpful, though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:45 / 25.09.06
And we're back. One could go further, and point out that a form of metonymy was used by Christians for many centuries to get the force of the religious aspect without actually misusing the name of God directly.

So, gadzooks, zounds, so help me God, and so on.

One could argue now that in most cases, one is using the name of God itself, or that of his only beloved son metnoymically, nowadays - to communicate a connection to the historical force of the term, by those who are not subject to the prohibition against misusing the name themselves.

Nonetheless, I'd probably cleave to my original position, that this is a solution in search of a problem. We can't change Barbelith to be acceptable to the tastes of all profoundly devout Christians - it's a place where transgendered pagans discuss sex. Individuals can ask for particular forms of behaviour, and individuals can make judgements about whether to go along with that. In some cases it becomes a moderator issue. This is not and will never be such an issue.

Frankly, the protection of the Christian sensibilities of people who do not use Barbelith is quite a long way down my list of issues needing to be addressed. If there is any evidence that people who do use Barbelith, or who might want to, are dissuaded from doing so by the taking of the Lord's name in vain, then there is just a possibility that it would be worth perhaps a proportion of the time we have so far spent on it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:52 / 25.09.06
solution in search of a problem

Indeed. Hasn't it so far been the case that, hatespeech aside, those who feel offended or hurt by something come to the Policy to tell us why, and we then thrash it out and come to some sort of arrangement? This way lies the situation wherein I try to follow "though shalt not kill" to the letter, and stop brushing my teeth out of respect for the bacteria.
 
 
Quantum
14:53 / 25.09.06
Argh. Pegs' post has stimulated me to be frank, indeed blunt- Paranoidwriter you are wasting everybody's time and energy. Imagine I start a debate about the discrimination against green people here on the board, can you see that it might be a) pointless b) patronising and c) deeply irritating?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
15:25 / 25.09.06
Yes, I can see that it would be a), b), and c). Mainly because "green people" don't exist. Or do they?

Seriously, I don't think many of the posts here are actually fair and balanced. I raised a "religious" point, that had relation to "Christian bashing". Maybe I put it in the wrong place? I certainly acknowledged that after Haus mentioned it. However, I do not think I warrant such blatant rudeness and hatred.

To use Haus' terminology elsewhere, I have also been repeatedly "called" back into this thread and others, and then blatantly attacked and condescended when I do so. Catch 22?

How should I react? Should I go attack-attack and bat-shit, be ambiguous, be insulting and intolerant myself; be more patient, sit back for a while and watch people insult my intelligence? As a member and regular of this board, should I not be concerned or voice my concerns when they arise? Should I cry hypocrite when I see it?

You tell me. I'm open to learning. Oh, and try to take the personal element out of your criticisms, or else I might start treating you as some of you are treating others.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
15:32 / 25.09.06
That last paragraph was for everyone who is being rude, not Quantum specifically.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:32 / 25.09.06
pw- I, at any rate, have at least attempted to be meticulous about not using personal criticism when I criticise your points (apologies if I've failed in this). To get needlessly personal for a moment, I actually like you, or your posting identity at any rate (I don't know you in real life, so that's all I have to go on). I do, however, think that at the moment you ARE being needlessly confrontational. Yes, various other people are being confrontational back, but from where I'm sitting, you're totally leading them on, and have given them the perfect arena in which to do so, and in the process you're handing yourself plenty of rope.

I'm fairly sure you're better than that. But please, go back and read some of your own arguments over the last few weeks, and tell me why I shouldn't draw the conclusion that you're picking fights. I'm prepared, and inclined, to believe that that's not your intention. But seriously, have a look, and tell me that's not a valid interpretation.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
15:43 / 25.09.06
Stoat, I appreciate you being polite and I didn't address your last post because I didn't want to prolong this.

I also don't want to fight. I want to discuss. I believe the last time I was blatantly aggressive was against Flyboy and Triplets when I called them "fuck-holes"; for which I've apologised.

I've re-read those threads numerous times, and I was there as they developed, from the beginning. I've also reminded everyone repeatedly about the wider contexts of this discussion.

I have also backed out of threads when I've become annoyed, and apologised for being annoyed or offending anyone.

Who bumped this thread? Who bumped the "Racism?" thread? Is all this ME being confronational? Why am I the one who should be labelled as some kind of (my word) instigator?

I've even given advice to people who've asked it and started nice new threads elsewhere. What am I to do? I've even constantly tried to steer stuff back on-topic, even when I've been guilty myself of being off-topic. What am I to do?

I've played this game by everyone's rules and yet then I'm all but accused of being a cheat or a blaggard.

No, I don't feel persecuted, I just wish this place was more open, friendly, and considered... to everyone.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:44 / 25.09.06
Right, any more things you'd like to cover PW? Stop people saying "that's a tall story" in case it offends people of reduced stature? Stop the use of "it's a grey day" to denote cloudy skies in case it offends any of the aliens that might be reading Barbelith from Area 51? We've really got to stop using "It's political correctness gone mad!" to avoid offending mentally unbalanced members of the constabulary. I mean, fuck knows, it's not like genuine oppression in the world means much.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:45 / 25.09.06
It's worth noting right now that the set of green people on Barbelith is in census terms as populated as the set of devout Christians who cannot bear to see the name of God written down by the unbeliever on Barbelith. But anyway.

How should I react?

Well, I'd start by getting out of the Policy. I'll state this confidently: your posts to the Policy recently, from Megatrongate to Jamaicagate to Christgate, have been of negligible or negative worth to Barbelith. You have consistently either generated or exacerbated conflict, and, quite simply, I don't think you are able to handle the kind of discussion that is required in the Policy.

I'm sorry. You're not alone in that, by any means, and it's unfortunate that you've put yourself in the spotlight like this, but you've done so by inserting yourself into situation after situation and demanding attention. You are not adding to the quality of discussion in the Policy, and by demanding that others deal with you here, you're soaking up time that could be spent doing more useful things for Barbelith.

I'm afraid that you don't seem open to learning. In the post above, you have already given yourself one way out of listening to people - I imagine that anything you do not want to listen to will be discarded as "personal". You are threatening to "treat others as they are treating you", as if you had not already become abusive and aggressive in thread after thread when your ideas were subjected to criticism. I do not personally believe that any suggestion that you do not like will be considered by you, and that you will justify that decision not to consider it in terms of the failings of others, rather than yourself.

You will now respond to this by telling me, probably based on some eccentric readings of previous threads, that I am doing just what I am telling you that you are doing, that I am therefore a hypocrite and that there is no need for you to listen to me. That is unfortunate, but unavoidable.

However. My suggestions:

1) Listen to your friend Stoatie. He's a cool guy.
2) Stop posting in the Policy. Possibly for ever, certainly for some time.
3) Stop mimicking "academic speech" - I had assumed that this was your natural speech pattern, and it's something of a relief that it is not. However, your attempts to fit your speech to what you see as the required standard on Barbelith may be contributing to your incomprehensibility. Just try being yourself for a bit. See how it goes.
4) Stop talking about hatred. I don't see anyone here who hates you. If you can't find someone saying "Paranoidwriter, I hate you", don't assume that you can claim hatred. Apply this standard to all the terminology you have used.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
15:52 / 25.09.06
See?

More subjective and condescending advice from one of the biggest argument makers on the board. Haus, I've always respected you and even apologised at length when you've wound me up so much I've insulted you; but you show my little respect in return. I don't think that's entirely my fault.

Hypocrisy?

I'll leave the Policy alone for a while. Stop "calling" me in return, eh?
 
 
grant
15:53 / 25.09.06
On some religious boards, by the way, there are Orthodox Jewish posters who consider it blasphemous to write out the name of God. They write "G_d." But they don't expect those who don't follow their credo to do the same, and it's kind of a given that in order for communication to work, you kind of have to accommodate others' means of expression. Their blasphemy isn't your blasphemy.

I think that's pretty much a web standard.

-----

Is this discussion turning into a "last word" contest? It seems to have run out of potential value a day or two ago.
 
 
grant
15:56 / 25.09.06
(written about four posts ago -- takes me that long to hit "post reply" sometimes.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:58 / 25.09.06
I can't think of a single situation in which I've "called" you, paranoidwriter. Believe or not, I am strangely fond of you, but that in no way extends to wanting or inviting you to talk to me about or in Policy. Quantum and Wonderstarr have "called" you in the sense of trying to divert threadrotting discussions started by your actions into other threads.

Since you have established that you will not listen to me, I won't try to give you any more advice, as you will see it only as "condescending". I will, however, repeat Stoatie's comment, because it bears it:

I do, however, think that at the moment you ARE being needlessly confrontational. Yes, various other people are being confrontational back, but from where I'm sitting, you're totally leading them on, and have given them the perfect arena in which to do so, and in the process you're handing yourself plenty of rope.

I'm fairly sure you're better than that. But please, go back and read some of your own arguments over the last few weeks, and tell me why I shouldn't draw the conclusion that you're picking fights.


It is pretty clear that he sees you as having been aggressive beyond the point where you insulted Flyboy and Triplets. That may be the last time you used rude words. There's a difference.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:58 / 25.09.06
On some religious boards, by the way, there are Orthodox Jewish posters who consider it blasphemous to write out the name of God. They write "G_d." But they don't expect those who don't follow their credo to do the same, and it's kind of a given that in order for communication to work, you kind of have to accommodate others' means of expression. Their blasphemy isn't your blasphemy.

Even John Byrne lets posters fill in the missing letters in M*****.

I'm now getting quite into this "whose blasphemy" thing, though, above and beyond this Barbelith argument (I've just learned, having little or no knowledge of Islam, quite how cool my "no dogs" strict Muslim landlord of a few years ago was in letting me even keep Biscuits in his property). I think a new thread could be quite cool. Maybe a Temple one.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
16:43 / 25.09.06
but you show my little respect in return. I don't think that's entirely my fault.

I'm sure that this has been said before but it bears repeating. Respect is not a reciprocal arrangement. It never has been and it never will be.

Respect can only be earned and if you feel that you are not being respected then perhaps you are not displaying the charateristics that garner the respect that you seek. You should consider whether displaying those characteristics is genuinely true to yourself and therefore worth pursuing.

Furthermore, consider not the person nor the delivery but what is actually being said to you. The messages here are not devoid of content.
 
 
illmatic
18:03 / 25.09.06
However, I do not think I warrant such blatant rudeness and hatred.

PW, I don't hate you either. But I *do* think you warrant blatant rudeness, as it seems entirely reasonable that people should start to vent when faced with your inability to listen, and continuous dragging out of excruiating, pointless discussions. You've had approximately 12 posters (I'm that sad, I went back and counted) tell you why treating the J word in this light is a non-starter, yet we're still arguing about it several pages later, in increasingly circular terms.

I refered to you as part of the reason for my temporary departure from Barbelith. It wasn't soley down to you obviously, but part of my reason was that the Policy increasingly seemed like a black hole from which no light escapes. I think that you are quite clearly one of the people responsible for making it like this. Please stop posting here. You are not adding anything of value to the board or its culture. In fact, you are making it, IMO, a lot worse.
 
  

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