BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Conversation >

Hetero 101

  
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
ibis the being
19:56 / 08.05.06
Have any of the people here who are/identify as 'het' and/or 'straight' ever identified as something else or been unsure of that identity/identification?

When I was a teenager and still forming my sexual identity, I questioned whether I was straight because I felt that I should at least ask myself that question... I didn't want to "default" straight just because that's the way my environment was probably shaping me. All in all though, aside from a couple of crushes (more idol-worship than sexual desire) I've never had a signficant sexual or romantic attraction to women.

Do people consider that they identify as het and/or straight or are het/straight?

I identify as het/straight and would say I am het/straight. I'm not exactly doing missionary in a flannel nightgown but I don't think my sexual habits, desires, persuasions stray from "straight" very much... although I wonder what exactly "straight" means anyway. I figure most so-called straight heterosexuals aren't strictly "vanilla," at least in their heart of hearts, and actually, come to that, what does vanilla mean to people?

I have trouble with this characterization of hetero->straight->vanilla->boring. It seems people are so afraid of being "boring" in their sexuality, but you are what you are. Obviously if you're sexually excited by [whatever], it's not boring to you. And anyone who finds you sexually unexciting isn't likely to be having sex with you, at least for very long. "Boring" is not a term that really has any meaning for me in describing one's own sexuality... "unsatisfied" may come into play at times, but that's a whole other box of cookies, isn't it?

Are there forms of het sexual encounter/sexual identity that are more socially acceptable than others?

I think so... I think that while a certain amount of lip service is paid to casual sex being acceptable these days, in real life it's still often frowned upon for women. People draw arbitrary lines around what level of intimacy is "needed" as a preliminary to sex, from a casual friendship ("fuck buddy" situation), to knowledge of their sexual history, what have you.... I think there's still a certain kind of magical thinking and/or propietary thinking about sex being some kind of "giving away" or "giving up" or letting someone have access to some secret special part of you - at least for women.

Oh, and another one: Apart from reproduction, why are people heterosexual?

I'm not sure I understand this question. Why are people whatever they are? Why are people sexual? Are you asking why are heterosexuals attracted to the opposite sex?

So how do you understand this trade-off? Do you appreciate having all these models around? When are they helpful and when are they irritating, confusing, or restrictive? How have you noticed your desires and your relationships being shaped by them?

I think having all those models around can be really confusing, restrictive, irritating, and generally just "help" people to fall back on untrue gender stereotypes. To a certain extent I think being heterosexual means having your roles laid out for you whether or not you fit them... and that means being less able to see your partner as a unique person without the filter of "man" or "woman" and all that's supposed to mean. I'm not sure if I'm saying this well, but I guess I have a perception (and maybe it's false) that homo/bi/transsexual people are fortunate in that, because they aren't "mainstream" sexually, have a greater ability to get outside restrictive gender roles in their relationships.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:00 / 08.05.06
Vanilla is tricky - I was using it in an attempt to distinguish people who actively identify as kinky/fetish/queer/perverted/other appropriate terms which I don't know because I don't identify thus myself, from people who don't identify thus (but who might nevertheless have those desires). Obviously didn't work...

Maybe we need a Kink 101 thread or something, in a week or two.
 
 
Mirror
22:37 / 08.05.06
Oh, and another one: Apart from reproduction, why are people heterosexual?

If this was intended to be a low-snark thread, I think that this question is a bit beyond the pale. In my reading of it there's an implied negative judgment of reproduction and heterosexuality in general. My reaction to this is the same as my reaction to the question of why people are homosexual, which is, "Why not be?" More below.

Do people consider that they identify as het and/or straight or are het/straight?

I asked a question in the Homo 101 thread about whether or not homosexuality is a determining feature of one's identity because the notion of "identifying" as het seems sort of foreign to me. Rather, though I think that I'm a relatively sexual person, sex just isn't that *important* to me in the sense that I'm not sure I'm interested enough in my own sexuality to attempt to deconstruct it.

The closest I can get is identifying with some of our cultural expectations of masculinity (being muscular, for example.) Even so, I don't desire those traits because I identify with them as being characteristically masculine; instead, I desire the opportunity that having such traits provides. I'm not muscular because I desire to be masculine; I'm muscular because I desire to climb hard and be physically unencumbered if I decide that there's something physical I want to do.

Ultimately, homo or het, I just see sex as a bit silly. I mean, really, we've got these body parts with lots of nerve endings that can be pleasureable to play with, but in general I think we take them way, way, way too seriously. I'm much more interested in expending my energy in creative ways than engaging in some primitive drama of swapping bodily fluids.
 
 
Ganesh
22:43 / 08.05.06
I asked a question in the Homo 101 thread about whether or not homosexuality is a determining feature of one's identity because the notion of "identifying" as het seems sort of foreign to me. Rather, though I think that I'm a relatively sexual person, sex just isn't that *important* to me in the sense that I'm not sure I'm interested enough in my own sexuality to attempt to deconstruct it.

As I hope I managed to express in the Homo 101 thread, identifying as gay (or, for that matter, homosexual) isn't just about who one has sex with. In an ideal world, perhaps that's all it should be about, but there's actually a whole load of other cultural baggage that comes with the label, "homosexual".

And that makes me wonder how het-identified people feel about all their cultural baggage: the expectation that one will meet a partner of the opposite sex, marry, have kids, etc., etc. Which cultural expectations are attached to the "heterosexual" label, and how do you address those expectations?
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:51 / 08.05.06
Which cultural expectations are attached to the "heterosexual" label, and how do you address those expectations?

Well, im my own personal experience (I can't stress that enough) there1s a very big cultural expectiation that hetero males have to "score" with as many "chicks" as possible, and as public as possible, so as to prove his "manhood", specially during the teenage years. Which, for a shy and clumsy kid - as I was, and to some point still am - is one really stressful peer pressure. I used to adress it by getting depressed. Now, I have come to a point in my life looking for one woman to be a consistent - although not necessarily monogamous - companion, and I'm confident enough to do it at my own time, so fuck peer pressure. (not that the search for true love isn't as universal as it gets, of course)
 
 
Mourne Kransky
22:51 / 08.05.06
Like that, Mirror.

Another question for los heteros. It seems to me, from my experience of life and soap opera, that when a gay couple gets together, they tend to lay their previous relationship cards on the table fairly quickly and in plain sight. My observation of straight friends is that they have more trouble with this. Sometimes one or both parties keeps it all hidden away, sometimes it's mentioned once and then never reconsidered. I've met my partner's exes and he's met most of mine and we have a good laugh about all of them.

Is that a gross caricature or does it ring a bell with some hetero people?
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:04 / 08.05.06
Is that a gross caricature or does it ring a bell with some hetero people?

Well, yes to both actually. It is a gross caricature, but there are many people that do abide by it. I had few long time relationships, so I personally don't have much to say about it either way. But, some friends of mine really can't stand think about their lovers's exes. It may be sign of insecurity and/or possessiveness

I'm hijacking these threads, so after this post I shall take (at least) three days off from posting, to meditate about the things I've been learning in those past few days here.

See ya, lithians. I care a lot about you all.
 
 
The Falcon
23:05 / 08.05.06
Well, coming from a relatively happy family background (and I really hope this isn't coming over all 'blargh, family valoos') those weren't so much expectations as desires for me, at - I imagine - a really quite young age and I subsumed them, pretty much. I was actually, hmm, I think the adjective I'd use is 'girlish' (inasmuch as this is a cultural construct that denotes women as more concerned with marriage than men) in how much I idealised that at, I dunno, age 12 or 13* (although, what I really wanted was a girlfriend and that took several more odious, painful years.) How staid. I think I'd probably identify as 'straight', too, in how I live my sex-life; albeit with a few perversions bubbling under.

These cultural expectations have undergone some reassessment in the last decade and a half, of course, but I can at this point reasonably expect in the next couple of years I will be both married and with offspring - probably a couple years earlier than I'd hoped or thought prior to my present relationship, but still really quite happy about the prospect, however Nick Hornby it may sound.

*Worth noting, however, that this does not mark a pattern even within my own family, given I have one sibling, who is gay.
 
 
Mirror
23:25 / 08.05.06
And that makes me wonder how het-identified people feel about all their cultural baggage: the expectation that one will meet a partner of the opposite sex, marry, have kids, etc., etc. Which cultural expectations are attached to the "heterosexual" label, and how do you address those expectations?

While these cultural stereotypes exist, I guess I've never felt particularly bound by them in any sense, despite the fact that I'm married and plan to eventually have kids. My wife and I only really chose to marry to allay her parents' discomfort with our living situation; I guess this means that we succumbed to social pressure but I don't think that it's really changed our lifestyle in any way. Frankly, the wedding was just a good excuse to have a party and get a bunch of loot - it was a path of least resistance with no discernable downside.

This is quite different from our intention to have children - here, expectations play an exceedingly minimal role. For both my wife and myself, having children was considered either a highly personal choice or, in her case, actively discouraged by her mother. My desire to have children, at least, is almost entirely for metaphysical reasons: I love my life so much that I cannot imagine a greater gift to give someone than life, and I want to have the experience of bestowing such a gift.

In summary, while heteronormativity makes heterosexuality ostensibly easier than homosexuality, I'm not sure that the attached cultural expectations have any real compelling force to them to alter behavior. Again, this is just in my experience; I'm sure there are lots of people out there whose parents badger them to be involved in relationships, etc. If such cultural expectations have ever been *directed* at me, I'm pretty sure I haven't cared enough to notice - I tend to be oblivious to quite a lot.
 
 
Mirror
23:47 / 08.05.06
Like that, Mirror.

That particular cultural expectation varies a lot by social group. The social group I had in my adolescence didn't really have this dynamic at all; sexual exploits weren't really talked about; that sort of behavior was considered to be immature and pointless. The group I hung out with were mostly martial artists and one's skill and diligence to training was considered a lot more important than sexual reputation.

Another question for los heteros. It seems to me, from my experience of life and soap opera, that when a gay couple gets together, they tend to lay their previous relationship cards on the table fairly quickly and in plain sight. My observation of straight friends is that they have more trouble with this. Sometimes one or both parties keeps it all hidden away, sometimes it's mentioned once and then never reconsidered. I've met my partner's exes and he's met most of mine and we have a good laugh about all of them.

In my social circle this would have been basically impossible since the group was fairly incestuous - when a couple in the group broke up, it was more common for each person to pair off with someone else from the group than to go outside of it, and those individuals who were brought in from the outside then ended up being serially monogamous with a few individuals before "settling" with someone. I have, however, noticed this sort of phenomenon more with people who meet through the bar scene or other interest-neutral or interest-free settings. In our case, the common interests of our group (geeks and gamers) proved more cohesive than the mixed-up relationships proved fractious. Insofar as being gay is a common interest, maybe this explains the phenomenon you observe?
 
 
Mirror
23:52 / 08.05.06
Just in case there's some confusion about that last post, I'm talking about two different periods in my life; the first group was from high school, the second from college.
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
06:57 / 09.05.06
I admit that when I read your question, HK, I felt it has a sexist edge to it. I will assume that you do not mean to be sexist. (I, too, really had to fight against a snarky response).

I suggest you try doing a little focused reading with this question in mind, which should help reveal to you that sexuality varies widely both within and across gender--you can gather that from many threads here on Barbelith.

The thing is, as a lesbian, I have zero experience of giving blow jobs, and I genuinely wasn't intending to be facetious. However, I do have a fair few heterosexual female friends, and the overwhelming consensus from them is that they don't mind performing oral sex on male partners, but personally they don't get any sexual pleasure from doing so.

As a long-time member of Barbelith, I have read all the threads dealing with sexuality and I'm fully aware of the varied nature of sexuality across genders and identities and I should have phrased my question better. I was just looking for answers from the het-identifying members of the board as obviously my circle of friends is not that representative.
 
 
Not in the Face
08:20 / 09.05.06
Its quite interesting that a lot of the responses to questions, including my own, are carefully framed to show they are the posters own reactions rather than representative of het/straight behaviour?

Ganesh comments that there's actually a whole load of other cultural baggage that comes with the label, "homosexual". While I would say the same about het/straightness I wonder how strong those pressures are relative to other sexual labels, and whether Barbelith het posters have a different take on their sexuality compared to what you would get in say (warning: wild generalisation) the FHM/Maxim forums? I don't mean this to sound that Lithers are superior in some sense but to illustrate whether it is easier for hets to opt out of the cultural baggage that comes with their sexuality, or to form sub-groups of behaviour within that, particularly given the recent dsiscussiona around mysogyny an issue with which popular representation of hetero behaviour is riven I think.
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
09:04 / 09.05.06
Also, alas, while I appreciate that my question was shoddily-written, and that your post was well-intentioned, I'd suggest you were rather presumptous about my perceived "sexism" and my need to be lectured.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:15 / 09.05.06
My next question might be "Is there something that makes heterosexual women disclaim enjoying giving b.js, especially when talking to somebody who has never given one?"
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
09:19 / 09.05.06
Well, I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. It's not like they'd lie to me about what they enjoy sexually in order to protect my lesbian sensibilities.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:23 / 09.05.06
I don't think I mentioned your sensibilities, though. I was thinking more about their sensibilities...
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
09:33 / 09.05.06
I think a hetero-identifying female poster is better qualifed to answer that than I am.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:41 / 09.05.06
Well, yeah - that was kind of what I was hoping for.

To expand - we've had LR on how OP is for straight women associated w/ waste disposal (not sure I buy that entirely, but anyway) on one hand, and DM on how OP is the acid test of sexual repression on the other. Caught between these two extremes, perhaps it is understandable that a degree of ambivalence might develop. That ambivalence might in some cases be diffused by commonality - everyone being to some degree in the same boat - in the company of other active and hetero/bisexual women, and perhaps also bisexual/gay men. However, in the face of somebody who is outside that commonality, is that ambivalence focused by context?

I'm just throwing stuff out, here. It's statistically perfectly possible that all HK's female-straight-friends-to-whom-she-talks-abbout-O-P are of the same utilitarian school, or indeed that members of this utilitarian school is more likely to find themselves in social situations where they are discussing mens's OP with somebody who has never encountered it.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:42 / 09.05.06
Is there something that makes heterosexual women disclaim enjoying giving b.js, especially when talking to somebody who has never given one?

Can't think of anything - the only thing that might affect this would be a large crowd of people all expressing distaste/indifference towards the act, in which case one might keep quiet about one's own opinion.
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
09:52 / 09.05.06
I've never expressed any disgust or disquiet about blow jobs when sexuality has been discussed, so I thought it was interesting that nearly every het-identifying woman I've discussed it with has reiterated the "well, I don't mind it but.." line.

I regularly hear my female friends express sentiments along the lines of: "Yeah, I'm dying to have sex with him", "I really want to fuck him" etc, but I can't recall anyone saying: "I'm dying to give him a blow-job", whereas this seems to be a common sentiment among my gay male friends who actively pursue the chance to perform oral sex on their male partners.

I'm approaching this issue as a complete ignoramus so I apologise if I offended anyone, I'm just genuinely curious whether this is reflected on a wider level, outside my very small circle.
 
 
Ganesh
10:00 / 09.05.06
Hattie, I can kind of see what you're saying. Perhaps it's a feature of gay male culture being a tad cock-obsessed (I think I can even remember no less a luminary than our own Mr Coates saying something vaguely along the lines of 'if a man's not into sucking cock, he's probably not gay') but, when speaking to straight female friends on the subject, I've also noticed that, as a group, their view of fellatio is perhaps more likely than that of gay men to include an element of 'currency' - 'give to get' - in contrast to many gay men being unequivocally turned on by cock-sucking in and of itself. Or saying they are.

Warning: contains traces of generalisation.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
10:21 / 09.05.06
in my experience, i do think there's social pressure for straight women to disavow pleasure from giving blow jobs. i have fairly large numbers of female friends across the u.s., and i've seen them say great things about the act alone with me or in small groups of female friends that i could never imagine them talking about in a large group or mixed environment.

the two main reasons i could think of is that you get hammered on both sides if as a woman you say that you enjoy giving head. you both end up being perceived as sluttier than the normal woman, and you're also frowned upon by feminists who object to what they perceive to be your phallic worship. so it's a no-win situation.
 
 
Ganesh
10:26 / 09.05.06
... sluttier than the normal woman...

I think the concept of 'sluttiness' is perhaps an interesting one to explore in terms of its varying stigma/cachet across genders and sexualities. Gay male culture, for example, could be said to disproportionately prize the set of attributes loosely collected under 'sluttiness' - in a way that, I suspect, isn't as true for straight women, or possibly even straight men.
 
 
Spaniel
10:40 / 09.05.06
I know a women who would appear to be obsessed with giving head.

Can I just ask, why are we having this conversation? I think it's pretty much a given that there will be women who enjoy it, women who dislike it, women who don't mind doing in as long as they're going to get something in return, and women who fall somewhere in between the above formulisations. I mean, does anyone want to seriously question that?

I'm not saying there isn't a valuable discussion to be had on this subject, particularly if women feel there are power issues involved in giving head, and if there is agreement that within some cultural contexts women are made to feel guilty for enjoying the act.
 
 
Ganesh
10:48 / 09.05.06
I know a women who would appear to be obsessed with giving head.

And I know - I am - a gay man who isn't.

Of course there's likely to be a spectrum of likingfellationess. What interests me, here and now, is a possible contrast in the degree to which that spectrum's expressed - and I'm interested in the factors influencing a straight woman's decision to profess, "yeah, I really like cock" compared with a gay man's avowal of the same thing. (And, for that matter, a straight man's...). I'm interested because, coming at this from a homo angle, it seems to me that much of gay male culture is overinvested in cock-sucking, to the extent that it feels vaguely taboo to 'admit' that one doesn't much like it.

I suppose I'm using (my perception of) the situation for straight women as a sort of diametric opposite of my own situation - and I may well be off the mark here. I thought it was a discussion worth having, though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:50 / 09.05.06
I mean, does anyone want to seriously question that?

Well, I don't think I am, because I'm asking a completely different question, which can be found above, and one which you, as a straight man, might not be qualified to answer.
 
 
Spaniel
10:54 / 09.05.06
Sorry, Haus, I wasn't actually responding to you, but rather the stream of I know someone who likes/dislikes/whatevers giving head.
 
 
Ganesh
10:59 / 09.05.06
Sorry, Haus, I wasn't actually responding to you, but rather the stream of I know someone who likes/dislikes/whatevers giving head.

I think it's reasonable for non-hetero people to ask hetero people, "I know heterosexual people who say X about Y, and I've gained such-and-such impression of Y; how generalisable is this?" That, surely, is one of the functions of these question-asking/answering 101 threads?
 
 
Spaniel
11:02 / 09.05.06
I suppose.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:03 / 09.05.06
Ah, righty. Sorry if I sounded impatient.

I think you're broadly right - it's going to be difficult to construct any sort of statistically meaningful quorum here, and so "there are probably a range of responses from enthusiasm to revulsion, for various reasons" is about as good as it woould get, but anecdotal evidence _can_ be useful and interesting. On the other hand, it does remain, as you say, anecdotal evidence, and in particular I'm interested here in why people might behave in a particular way, which I think is something that only a subgroup really have a chance of getting towards - like, would somebody represent themselves differently to different audiences?
 
 
Ganesh
11:04 / 09.05.06
I think I'm broadly asking the same thing, Haus, albeit in a more compare 'n' contrast way.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:38 / 09.05.06
If this was intended to be a low-snark thread, I think that this question is a bit beyond the pale.

Hmmm. My intentions in posting those particular questions were not to snark at anyone, but to ask why, when the idea for '101' threads was originally about answering questions about things that are considered to be marginal, this thread has already outdone the othre 101 threads by several miles. I think heterosexual people (even those who are perverts and whose identities are not entirely covered by that name, which is just about everyone, probably) do like talking about heterosexuality, because that is what is assumed to be simply 'how the world is'. And it's far more 'comfortable' or familiar. Even for non-hetero's. This is happening in this thread, but as Deva points out, it happens everywhere and in almost all cultural contexts. And yet, it's difficult to identify 'heterosexuality' because people really feel as if their sexual choices are 'just because they are', impossible to explain.

About asking "Why are people heterosexual?": The question "What makes people gay?" is mostly assumed to be a valid question, and one which has been discussed many, many times on Barbelith. With reference to hormone levels, finger length, nature/nurture, etc. In asking what makes people heterosexual, I am not being facetious or snarky. I'm genuinely interested. But I'm also interested in finding out why it seems nonsensical to ask the 'why' question about heterosexuality, when most of us would all secretly love to know why people turn out queer, or trans, or whatever. This honestly perplexes me.
 
 
illmatic
11:56 / 09.05.06
Reading all these 101 threads since yesterday, I feel that it’s as if desire comes first and labels or identities follow –Person X gives you the horn, and an identity – in terms of shared self-understandings – is then found or constructed that sits with that, almost after the fact. Words/labels being words/labels these things get contested, fought over, redefined, misunderstood, politicised etc. It’s almost as if desire moves to fast for the labels to catch up with it.

A good parallel might be my racial identity – my Dad was half-black, half-Chinese and my mum was white. I look white. I experience all this as quite natural – self-evident even (which it is if you know anything about Jamaican history) but people with less complex backgrounds think it’s odd, and I have a bugger of a time figuring out which little box to tick on those equal ops surveys.

I suppose the question this point to wards is to what degree are all these identities provisional understandings, rather than “real things” including hetreosexual ones?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:59 / 09.05.06
Illmatic: yes, yes, yes....
 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
  
Add Your Reply