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Trans 101 2006

 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
Smoothly
23:46 / 18.05.06
Now I'm not sure I understand what's meant when one talks about 'identifying as' something. I'll come back to that. There's so much stuff here that I might make a bit of a mess of this.

Thanks for breaking gender down for me, (id)entity, that helps my flabby brane. Do you mind if I go through those parts and how they relate to eachother?

1. One part is gender role. These are the social expectations of one based on other people's perception of your gender.
Right. Gotcha.

2. Another is gender assignment, which is what you're labeled at birth based on cues like apparent genital configuration.
A.k.a. 'sex', right? Give or take, original or reproduction. And that might or might not correlate with (1), depending on...

...3. gender expression, which refers to how one expresses gender through one's outward choices, like dress, speech, gesture, etc,
right?

4. Then there's gender identity, which has to do with one's internal experiences and (for some) choices about gender.
This is what I don't really get.
But I gather 4 is optional. As elene says:

I don't think I have a gender identity, Steve. I mean nowadays I have a more or less female body and I feel the expectation to behave accordingly, but I didn't change because I was really a woman. I just wanted to.

So someone might *be* female without identifying as female, and alternatively *identify* as female without being female. Which is why the American Mexican analogy seemed helpful. That you might identify as American Mexican without actually being American Mexican (I instantly thought of a variation of Drexl Spivey in True Romance).
But then there's alas's point about the obligation of the appropriated community to honor your chosen identity:

It's not just a matter of you deciding anything; you have to be accepted and recognized by the community, in that case, and they are under no obligation to "honor" your belief that you really "are" Latino/a just because you've made a decision to "identify" with them.

While I think that's probably true, I was just coming to understand that to 'identify as' something wasn't the same as saying you really "are" something. So (id)entity's subsequent retraction makes me think I still don't I understand that bit.

Just so I'm clear, can you *identify* as female without *really being* female?

(Please please correct me if I've made false inferences from what people have said here. Obviously, I'm not very confident about all this stuff. It's been a bit of a nagging blind-spot for a while, so I really appreciate the effort people are making to help me.)

* Mister Disco's internalised 'picture' of himself is kinda helpful, but I dunno. I don't *think* I have an internal picture of myself that isn't just a recollection of the external one, but it has made me think. The only thing I can in relate this to is the way I kinda think of myself as 17. I still get a bit of a jarring reality check when people refer to me as a man rather than a boy, and I wonder if that's similar to how Mr Disco was shocked to look in the real mirror and see the reality of my feminine body. Although, of course, (unless you're Lea off Big Brother) age isn't negotiable in the same way gender is.
Further, all this makes me wonder about how (and if) girl, woman, man and boy map onto eachother in gender terms - whether girls necessarily make women; if the boy can be the father of the woman, and so on. But maybe that's a dead-end.
 
 
elene
06:16 / 19.05.06
But I gather 4 is optional. As elene says: ...

Steve, I think I'm a pretty bad example of a transsexual. I know that didn't stop me trying to describe my experience - it ought to have - but that fact is that most transsexuals describe knowing that they are really the other gender, i.e. that they are really not a boy after all but a girl, or vice versa, at a very early age and that's generally what is meant by a transsexual's gender identity. It's an apparently intrinsic awareness of which gender one belongs to. Now I can remember asking my mother and my aunt, and even my father once, why I must be a boy and never being really convinced, and I did try to convince them I'd make a perfectly good girl, but I can't remember ever knowing that I was a girl. I always though I could become one though, were it allowed. I seem to be lacking something there.
 
 
Ex
07:52 / 19.05.06
elene, I like hearing from people with different experiences, and I don't think that your sense that you're not representative should stop you posting. I know it's tricky, because the '101' tag suggests that there are simple answers to basic questions, but I think one of the most important things in any of these threads is that people are different. In fact, I think this tension - between presenting a coherent identity (be it trans, gay, bi) so people can understand, and showing that there is a lot of diversity, is huge - I think it's one of the key legacies of identity politics, and I imagine it'll crop up quite often. I like your posts.

alas:

But...I am not sure if I would say we do have the "right" to any particular social role....I'm genuinely not sure. I need to think that one through.


I see your point - it's tricky. I would say, can you balance the sense that that's a strange preposition with an awareness of what happens if you don't have the right to a social role - who gets to decide it for you? Do they have the 'right' instead? Which is a huge question because it includes formal processes like official documentation and laws, right down to tiny interractions.
This is making me think about other 'rights' one supposedly has and whether they cover social roles, or whether they're just supposed to prevent your government messing with you. So, for example, you have freedom of movement, but you don't have a guarantee that everyone will be nice to you when you get wherever you've gone. You have freedom of thought, but how many safeguards do you have that your boss/landlord/parents will let you excercise it?
I think my usual assertion that everyone has a right to choose how they identify in gender terms is probably like those rights. I think it would be a terrifying thing to take away from someone and lodge that power of definition somewhere else (one writer, I can't remember who, calls it a 'powerful seizure' to deny it). But I don't know what it guarantees, in concrete terms and in terms of social role. In one sense, then, it's a really wishy-washy assertion; but I've seen the kind of resistance people have to the concept, so I think it may be a useful conceptual building block.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
09:12 / 19.05.06
Steve, I think I'm a pretty bad example of a transsexual. I know that didn't stop me trying to describe my experience - it ought to have - but that fact is that most transsexuals describe knowing that they are really the other gender, i.e. that they are really not a boy after all but a girl, or vice versa, at a very early age and that's generally what is meant by a transsexual's gender identity. It's an apparently intrinsic awareness of which gender one belongs to.
Well, you're not alone there, so perhaps you're not such a bad example as all that. I do get the impression that one is expected to conform to that, uh, mode, though. And it may be an advantage to present as "I am profoundly different and must change" as opposed to "I feel I am different and would prefer to change".
 
 
elene
11:05 / 19.05.06
Ha! Thanks for the encouragement, Ex and Kay, it's very welcome.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
13:58 / 19.05.06
elene, i agree with everyone elene, about you not needing to feel like you're a bad example just because you don't necessarily fit the perceived norm. i think it takes a lot of courage to describe your experience as a matter of preference.

not to invalidate other people's experiences, but i can see there being social pressure , whether cosncious or unconscious, for transgendered people to describe their experiences as arising from circumstances they can't help, because expressing it as a choice somehow makes it less valid in the estimations of the larger world.

it reminds me of all these attempts to find biological causes for homosexuality, as if finding such causes would somehow make gay people more socially acceptable.
 
 
elene
15:25 / 19.05.06
Thanks, sibyline, but it's not brave of me to say that here, or elsewhere actually as I've already changed most things I need to change. It is a bit more serious when one tells a medical professional whose diagnosis one needs in order to make the changes, but that seems to be a fairly pragmatic process. It isn't necessary to be an ideal transsexual to receive help.

I'm not sure how much of a choice this was for me either. It's not really something one does needlessly. However much I might say it's worth doing out of pure curiosity, the stigma attached is too great that one would actually do so. And not changing is a weight one carries with one everywhere. One is refusing one's life when one does not go ahead.

Believing one would be happier were one to change is quite different to knowing that one is in the wrong body and one must change, but there is still a need to change, and it's very strong, if less understandable.
 
 
*
15:35 / 19.05.06
Oh, this will be a long one. Feel free to skip it.

2. Another is gender assignment, which is what you're labeled at birth based on cues like apparent genital configuration.
A.k.a. 'sex', right? Give or take, original or reproduction.


Not according to my way of thinking about this. I deliberately avoided talking about sex, because my own thoughts are not well formulated about this complex entity, but I think it's also made up of several parts, such as chromosomal sex, genital sex, perhaps hormonal sex, perhaps brain sex, who really knows at this point— but these things are also not strictly binary, although like gender most people fall into one of the two commonly-accepted categories.

Gender assignment is something that gets done to you on the basis of what people can tell or guess about your sex when you're born. It's still social. But people assume that gender assignment is sex, and that sex is wholly biological and not social at all.

4. Then there's gender identity, which has to do with one's internal experiences and (for some) choices about gender.
This is what I don't really get.


You're not alone. I really can't explain it. I know my internal identity has shifted over time— when I was a young child I tried to shave my face, but I cut myself, and my mother had to explain to me that I was a girl and was going to grow up to be a woman (haha, little did she know) and that was something different from Daddy, etc. And unlike many people who have more solid transgender identities, I accepted this completely. I had total trust in my parents at that point, I guess. I think I must have decided that being a girl didn't mean anything, because for a long time I thought and acted as if gender did not exist for me. And it wasn't really until I was an adult, having intimate relationships, that that position became untenable. I can't explain what it felt like for that to happen, because a lot of it has to do with dissociation, so my feelings were as unknown to me as they are unknowable to you.

I think that our internal identities are also complex. Not all people feel like they have them, and that's okay. I feel as if I have something internal which tells me that whatever I am, it's not a woman. I think this was not a choice that I made, although it certainly must be shaped in some measure by a lot of small choices I made. It must have a lot to do with the kinds of characteristics I see myself having or wanting and how I gender those. For instance, I would find it intolerable to play the role of a femme woman, but I find it liberating to play the role of an effeminate man. I know that my ideas about what makes a person a man are cobbled together out of characteristics I saw in my father and mother— in itself a complex proposition because I always felt very proud that my parents did not adhere to standard gender roles, and so many of the qualities I saw as desirable for my mother were traditionally coded as masculine qualities. I'm sure all of these things contribute to my sense that I feel more at ease being treated as male for reasons which are deep in my personality and not easily separated out from whatever you might talk about as "core identity" if such a thing exists.

Now, I want to address a problem with your question "Just so I'm clear, can you *identify* as female without *really being* female?" If we weren't talking about gender, the answer would have to be yes, absolutely. For instance, a person could perhaps identify as a rock, but because the definition of a rock has nothing to do with what a rock feels like, or how a rock chooses to be, an identity of rockness goes no way towards fulfilling the definition of rockness. On the other end of the scale, a white person raised by a white family may identify as "an Indian" (indeed, many do; they belong to the Pretendian tribe) and not really be Native American. I've been trying to formulate why, and I'm not having a lot of confidence doing it. The complex entities that we abbreviate "race" and "culture" are different from those we call "gender" and "sex." I don't think anyone fully understands how much each of the different aspects of "gender" contributes to its "realness," i.e. is gender assignment 40% of gender, gender role 10%, and gender identity 20%? Is this different for different people? In addition, "real" doesn't have a very clear or useful meaning when we're talking about gender. But to me it seems there is something more individual about gender than there is about race or culture. I'm not saying that gender is entirely individualistic, though. I think it just tends to be negotiated in different ways. I usually think of gender being negotiated between two people, whether strangers in a shop or lovers making love, while race and culture are more integrally part of an ongoing historical dialogue. (Admittedly this perception on my part is probably an effect of my perception of gender as more individual, not a cause.)

I still can't clearly tell you why I think this. But I think that gender requires trusting a person's identity, and their motivation for expressing an identity, whereas race almost demands that we question that, especially when a person's race privileges them in certain ways. I think, however, that a person cannot, or perhaps ought not, "identify" in a vacuum. It would amaze me to hear that someone identified as something they had never had any exposure to, for instance—how would they know? I like pangolins, but I can't imagine identifying as one—I've never seen one up close, let alone come to understand its worldview. If I was not creating some kind of successful male role in society for myself, my identity as male might still be very real, but it would not be socially relevant. So "real" I think is not a useful concept for us right now.

This also relates back to elane's feeling that she is not a "good example" of a transsexual and therefore shouldn't share her experience. I think that's hogwash, elane, and I hope you don't mind me saying so. Much of my angst around deciding whether or not I could transition had to do with the fact that on first inspection, I couldn't find any "real transsexuals" whose experiences matched mine. I assumed I couldn't "really" be trans, and so not only should I not transition, I shouldn't even identify as trans. I see it as vital, therefore, that trans people who don't fit the "standard narrative" share our stories, because we're just as much "really trans" as a "I knew at three years old and have never been anything different" "primary" transsexual person.

I think my usual assertion that everyone has a right to choose how they identify in gender terms is probably like those rights. I think it would be a terrifying thing to take away from someone and lodge that power of definition somewhere else (one writer, I can't remember who, calls it a 'powerful seizure' to deny it). But I don't know what it guarantees

I agree, Ex, and I'm having similar trouble articulating what privileges the right to self-define should confer. I would like to think that equal access to safe, identity-consistent public restrooms would be in there somewhere. Also the right not to be harassed, or face job or housing discrimination. I would think that deliberate use of the wrong name and pronouns, after a person's choices have been made known to one, would qualify as a kind of harassment.

not to invalidate other people's experiences, but i can see there being social pressure , whether cosncious or unconscious, for transgendered people to describe their experiences as arising from circumstances they can't help, because expressing it as a choice somehow makes it less valid in the estimations of the larger world.

I've definitely felt this, and unfortunately there are real consequences to that decreased validity, in terms of the fact that this is a time when we are pushing for legislation to be passed that will protect us. Still, I know two women who did identify as trans under the "I've always" model, and they later turned out, entirely unbeknownst to them until their adulthood, to have biological circumstances which IMO must have contributed to those feelings. So I think we cannot rule out biological influences. However, I hesitate to ascribe them to all "true transsexuals," because that validates some people's identities while invalidating others, and I can't see a good reason to countenance that.
 
 
Mono
14:25 / 20.05.06
I have been wondering about HRT and possible moral/ethical conflicts/reservations that strict vegetarian/vegan transfolk might have about taking hormones. All the trans men/women I've known have been omnivores, so Barbelith, you are my only hope!

I am curious to know if anyone could shed some light on this possible dilemma for trans men/women considering HRT? Was is an issue for anone here? Do you know someone who has had to consider reconciling these two separate but integral parts of hir identity? What was the outcome?

I hope this is not too off topic...

Thanks.
 
 
elene
15:48 / 20.05.06
Well, no one ought to use Premarin, irrespective of vegetarian/vegan commitment, because it's obtained for mares, their urine to be precise, and they’re badly mistreated in the process of optimising the return apparently. I use Progynova which is synthetic and contains estradiol valerate. I've no idea whether synthetic estrogens are permissible for vegetarians, but I’d strongly suspect they are.
 
 
Ganesh
16:10 / 20.05.06
Progynova's a good one to go for, because estradiol valerate is naturally-occurring in human (as opposed to equine) females, seems to have a lowish rate of coagulation complications and is measurable in the blood, making it possible to titrate the level with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Premarin is, as you say, ethically dubious.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
14:27 / 22.05.06
I know a couple of trannyboys who are vegan and don't want to take synthetic hormones. One is looking into Chinese herbs that might draw out or stop his menstrual cycle and masculinise his body somewhat. At least, he said he was a few months ago, then I didn't hear anything more. Don't know what herbs or what kind of regimen he was thinking about, only that his acupuncturist/herbalist was helping out.

I also know a couple of vegans who take testosterone, and I'm pretty sure that most T preparations are made from synethetics, nothing animal-based. It's a pretty safe bet that they've been tested in animals, though. I feel ethically weird about this, but almost all the pharmaceuticals I've taken, ever, have been tested in animals. I'm not sure this is a good enough reason not to take something.

When I was considering taking testosterone the first time, about five years ago, I didn't want to take anything synthetic and so tried tribulus terrestris capsules for about a month. They did absolutely nothing physical -- it was mostly an emotional shift, and even that was very minor.
 
 
Mono
11:33 / 23.05.06
Thanks for the feedback.
 
 
Triplets
12:27 / 28.06.06
Right, you know when someone gets their girlbits transformed into boybits? Where does the womb go?

Mummy?
 
 
Ganesh
16:37 / 28.06.06
Medical waste, generally. If they opt for hysterectomy.
 
 
Triplets
16:44 / 28.06.06
Cheers, but if they build a penis (with the urethra, urinary plumbing rerouted) I'm assuming the whole area is "sealed"? What about menstrual stuff; how's that gotten rid of?

Sorry if this sounds insensitive but I've been thinking about it like a stuck record today. Trans 101! Trans 101!
 
 
*
21:04 / 28.06.06
There's a number of things. Usually if the vagina is going to be sealed completely, a hysterectomy has been done, or at least an oophorectomy, so there is no menstruation to be worried about. Or an FTM may have been on testosterone for sufficiently long that the menstruation has stopped permanently, so again— nothing to worry about.

If a guy is still menstruating at the time of bottom surgery, they might leave a small hole. From what I've heard this is comparatively rare.

Then again, a lot of guys just keep the extra hole. They may choose not to have surgery, or they may choose a kind of surgery that doesn't interfere with the vagina. Clitoral release is one such— it just frees up the trans guy's cock, must of which is contained within the body, so it's apparently and functionally a little longer. Testicular implants can be added in the labia, or not, but usually not if the vagina is still present.

As to your actual question, yes, the usual method for rerouting the urethra requires a little of the vaginal wall, so that is usually sealed. And most surgeons won't do that without a hysterectomy.
 
 
Ganesh
21:15 / 28.06.06
It's more usual to combine phalloplasty with hysterectomy (usually transvaginally), but I'm aware of individuals who've had the one without going for the other - not at the same time, anyway. Sometimes trans blokes put off the hysterectomy for a year or two, without ill-effects (testosterone supplements meaning menstruation doesn't happen anyway). Endomentriosis is a risk; it's a good idea to go for hysterectomy at some point.
 
 
alas
15:54 / 03.08.06
I considered posting this in books, but decided that this might be a better place for it. I am currently reading Jamison Green's Becoming a Visible Man right now, which has been recommended to me by many people, and finding it very helpful.

I recommend that "students" of this thread start by reading the "excerpt" on the Amazon link and then try to get your hands on it. The statistics and scientific theories he offers about gender variance are very powerful and I think may be helpful for me as I work with my family on this issue.

Plus, the overall story is very interesting and wise. He's really helping me detangle some ideas about masculinity and my own feminist identity that have been real stumbling blocks for me.

I need especially to understand FTM experiences right now, as my adult son transitions, and would welcome other book/ serious article suggestions that might be useful for me and help me to be a better supporter of my son and an ally to transgender people and advocate at home and on my university campus. (Theory or memoir or practical whatever.)
 
 
Ticker
16:50 / 03.08.06
alas, if you haven't read Raven Kaldera's work on being FTM I really suggest it.

Feminist On Testosterone: The View From An Intersexual FTM
 
 
nixwilliams
23:55 / 03.08.06
I was just reading through, and found this remark from entity:

For instance, I would find it intolerable to play the role of a femme woman, but I find it liberating to play the role of an effeminate man.

I've been trying very hard to explain this to my mum (amongst others), particularly with regard to (non-sexual) 'girly' things I rejected very strongly before transing it up. People really want to see my "playing house" as proof that my rejection of femininity as a female was "just a phase" and I've grown out of it, whereas I see my behaviour as that of a faggy transqueer (...labels, labels!).

I wonder if this ties in with the discussion earlier about putting in an effort to modify one's behaviour (moulding it into a stereotypical approximation of 'masculinity' or 'femininity'), then starting hormones/getting surgery/etc and not having to put in that effort, because there's less pressure to pass?

... also, Raven Kaldera's writing is great.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:03 / 09.08.06
I had the same trouble with my mother. It's hard to explain. Sometimes you can get around that difficulty of explaining 'effeminate ftm' stuff by drawing a distinction between sex and gender: sex is about the body, biology, whatever, and being trans is about changing that; gender is about role, presentation, whatever. Therefore, a transman can be an effeminate man, no worries! Except that I'm kind of a hardline Butlerhead when it comes to gender theory, and I'm not inclined to give people more excuse to reify biology in the form of 'sex' to explain myself, or to pretend that 'sex' and 'gender' are so easily distinguished. So, difficulty.
 
 
nixwilliams
09:46 / 09.08.06
oh, butler. why'd you have to go and make things so complicated? (did i just quote avril? sheesh - i'm not becoming a transfag, i'm becoming teenyangstgirl). i blame butler for the glazed look family members get whenever i mention gender, sex, queer, me... i think i may have tried to explain things once too often in my crazed-undergrad-butler-fan stage.

in terms of writing, i think "reclaiming genders", edited by stephen whittle and kate more, is a pretty good collection of essays etc. to use as a starting point.
 
 
Ticker
13:05 / 09.08.06
I read this today and am wonder where to start a thred on intersex. any suggestions?
(is there one hiding on me?)

Intersex
 
 
*
17:22 / 09.08.06
When I explained this to people for awhile I used the "Four Lines" exercise from FTMichael's site:

"Gender identity, sex, sexual orientation...I really don't get the difference here."
This is the fun part. Take out a piece of paper and turn it sideways, and make four parallel horizontal lines, one on top of the other. Leave some space in between them to write. Right under the top line, write Sex. Under the second line, write Gender Identity. Under the third line, write Gender Expression. Under the fourth line, write Sexual Orientation.

* On the left end of the Sex line, write Female; on the right end, write Male; in the very middle, write Intersex.
* On the left end of the Gender Identity line, write Woman/Girl; on the right end, write Man/Boy; in the very middle, write Genderqueer/Third Gender/Two-Spirit/Other.
* On the left end of the Gender Expression line, write Feminine; on the right end, write Masculine; in the very middle, write Androgynous.
* On the left end of the Sexual Orientation line, write Attracted to Men; on the right end, write Attracted to Women; in the very middle, write Pansexual/Bisexual/Asexual.

Find some colored pencils or pens. To use myself as an example: My sex is female. Mark the "Female" end of the Sex line. My gender identity is Genderqueer Transboy. Mark the Gender Identity line about halfway between Genderqueer and Man/Boy. My gender expression is masculine, but not 100% so. Mark the Gender Expression line very near Masculine, but not all the way at the end. And my sexual orientation is pansexual, so mark the Sexual Orientation line right in the middle.

Now choose another colour and mark where you fall on each line.

Basically, the point here is that each of these things is completely independent of the others. Where you fall on any one line has no effect on where you will fall on any other line.

Have some other folks fill out your chart with different colours, and make a legend if you like to show what colour represents which person. The more people who put themselves on the chart - don't do it for them, they should have the right to identify themselves - the more you will understand how varied everyone's identity is, and how each of those four parts of one's identity really have no bearing on each other at all.


Yeah except... they do have some bearing on each other. If I liked women, I probably wouldn't have decided to transition, because so much of my male identity is wrapped up in being a queer man. I'd probably rather be a very weird dyke than transition and become heterosexual. (No, I don't know why. I have some suspicions, but they're not pretty, so let me keep them under wraps for now.) Bi/pansexual is probably a good description of my sexual attraction patterns, except that there's an ugly reason which is part of why I don't call myself bisexual— it's associated too much with femaleness in my mind. But the exercise was still useful for me to give to family members— I didn't have to go into all that complexity with them right away.

XK, you can start an intersex thread wherever you think it'll be most appropriate. Head Shop or Lab would be my two inclinations.
 
 
Ticker
17:34 / 09.08.06
id, I hear you about easing around the sleeping dogs of one's sexual manifestations sometimes. The other night I was talking about my tendancy to be stone with my female lovers and while there were reasons for it I'm comfortable talking about, I definately felt the squigglies under the lids.

I wonder if some of it does have to do with those lines of self-id'ing and how we cope when there is dissonance?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
23:37 / 09.08.06
OK, dumb terminology question: what, if anything meaningful, does the term "transgender(ist)" mean?

I ask because i've heard it used:

a) (primarily in LGBT political circles) as an umbrella term to cover transsexual, transvestite, intersex, genderqueer and basically pretty much all gender-variant people, where the variance is about gender rather than sexuality

b) (primarily online, including here, IIRC) to mean someone who identifies and/or dresses as being non-gendered or intermediate/neutral

c) (primarily by my offline transsexual friends) as meaning someone who isn't transsexual, but dresses/lives full time as the "opposite" gender (ie, somewhere between transvestite and transsexual)...

Which, if any, of these is the "generally accepted" meaning? Or is "transgender" a pretty much meaningless word which is used by so many different people to mean so many different things that it's actually pretty much useless?
 
 
nixwilliams
23:21 / 14.08.06
i was just thinking of an adequate reply to natty's question, and i began to wonder how one could categorise the meanings of 'transgender' in various ways.

1. transgender as a movement. if you believe in binary gender, then a movement from one to the other. if you don't, then a movement between genders.
2. transgender as a space. if you believe that there are Real Men and Real Women, then transgender space might be not-real women or men. if you believe in a third gender, that space might be seen as transgender.
4. transgender as a political idea. purposefully and visibly playing with cultural ideas of gender. this probably moves into genderfuck territory.
3. transgender as a state of mind (!). the belief that there is no gender, that one is not gendered, that particular behaviours are not indicative of gender. (i'm not saying that these four groups are mutually exclusive, either)

i guess implied in these categorisations (how i love putting things in neat little boxes) is that different people have different views of what gender is and how it works. for instance if a person believes gender to be binary, then 'transgender' must mean changing/moving from one to the other (once, or more than once, temporarily or permanantly). if, however, they believe gender to be a sort of sliding scale (as per ftmichael's graph, quoted above), then 'transgender' will mean something else. as it will if a person doesn't believe that gender as a system serves a valid purpose.

as to the usefulness of 'transgender', or whether it's meaningless because it has too many meanings... i would need to go and consult derrida for that. i think many trans theorists, at least, now use the term 'trans' or even 'trans*' as an umbrella term, leaving 'transgender' to refer to those who live full time as a/the gender/sex other than that assigned at birth without undergoing surgery/ies.

please, if anyone else wants to rip this post to shreds, do so!
 
 
Cat Chant
10:42 / 15.08.06
Just so I'm clear, can you *identify* as female without *really being* female?

I've been meaning to get back on this point for ages, and I hope I'm not derailing the thread by doing so - I hope that my experience might help cast some light on specifically trans experience, by contrast if nothing else.

Anyway, I think (pace id) that you can have a gender identification which is not the same as the gender you 'really are'. Because I do. Or rather, I identify quite strongly as a boy in many interior and private ways, many of which I don't mind making public in some contexts, but for all public purposes I'm a female woman, and I'm happy to be recognized, addressed, and treated as such. One of the things that I'm (rather belatedly) realizing makes the crucial difference, from reading and listening to various ftms on this board and and elsewhere, is that I don't experience any contradiction between my boy-identification and my female body.

The glorious Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick, who is a 'queer but long-married woman' (and is not trans), has said: In among the many ways I do identify as a woman, the identification as a gay person is a firmly male one, identification "as" a gay man... A male-identified woman, even if there could thoroughly be such a thing, would still be a real kind of woman.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:34 / 15.08.06
I identify as a woman on here and there is quite some precedent for it, as I've done so extensively in the past in various other places (online mostly... also as a fanzine editor, small-press comic book writer, in a kind of pre-internet virtuality enabled by the postal service) but my "meat" is male. Curse this metal body!

I wonder if female authors writing as men (George Eliot? James Tiptree Jr?) could also be considered as people who identified (and were treated) one way textually, and another biologically.
 
 
Smoothly
13:17 / 15.08.06
Cheers, Deva, that is helpful, although I’m still thoroughly confused.
I still don’t really understand what it means to identify as something, and wonder if/how it relates to identifying with something. For example, Deva talks about as identifying as a boy in interior, private ways. I sort of thought identifying *as* something had to something to do with presentation (in the broadest sense), in contrast with indentifying *with* something – which I can imagine being done entirely privately. I don’t want to get too ‘If a tree falls down and there’s no one there to hear it...’ about this, but does identifying *as* something require interaction at all? Or am I confusing gender identity with gender expression?
Hmm, I’m not explaining my problem very well. I kinda feel like I can’t see the elephant in the room.

As I said earlier, I don’t think I identify as any gender. I call myself a man, because I have a man’s body. At least I think that’s why I call myself a man. This thread makes me question that, but no matter. I don’t think I have any maleness, masculinity, whatever beyond that. But then I’m not really sure what I’m supposed to be looking for.
So when wonderstarr talks about how she identifies as a woman *here*, I wonder about how I identify here. I’m really not sure. Can anyone help? Do I identify as male? If I posted to the F-I only thread in the Policy, would I get deleted?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:20 / 15.08.06
I have only really read Butler, Sedgwick et al once in my life, so any comment I make on this forum is not going to be theoretically-informed.

I sort of thought identifying *as* something had to something to do with presentation (in the broadest sense), in contrast with indentifying *with* something – which I can imagine being done entirely privately. I don’t want to get too ‘If a tree falls down and there’s no one there to hear it...’ about this, but does identifying *as* something require interaction at all?

I would certainly have thought you could identify as something without any interaction. I am taking "identify as" in (again) a kind of common-sense way to mean something like "define yourself as", "regard yourself as". I would suggest that, say, if a boy dresses up as a girl, goes out and is treated like a girl in a club, that would reinforce his identification as a girl, but he could equally do the same thing in front of a mirror at home. We've all done it! Right?

Just as you can make self-affirming comments to yourself ("I am a beautiful, successful individual") or have them echoed back to you in a support group or therapy session.

That's what I was understanding by "identify as". Like, if the DJ said all the ladies in the house holler, would you holler. Like, if someone asked for a doctor, would you stand up. Like if someone asks the exciting party question "so what do you do?", your answer might also show what you identify as in a certain way. You might of course identify as a democrat, a Black British person, a foodie, a Trekker, a Christian, or all of those.



So when wonderstarr talks about how she identifies as a woman *here*, I wonder about how I identify here. I’m really not sure. Can anyone help? Do I identify as male? If I posted to the F-I only thread in the Policy, would I get deleted?


Personally I have chosen not to post on that thread, because it's proven to be a sensitive territory and to be honest, not living as a woman, I don't feel so much right to be there. I could only speak from an experience of being treated as female online on here and elsewhere, which doesn't count for much in terms of a real-life social position as female.
 
 
*
17:48 / 15.08.06
I agree with you about identification, miss wonderstarr, with the addition that the mirror isn't even necessary. For me this is an internal thing. Identifying with implies that you don't actually believe yourself to be a woman/man/doctor whathaveyou, you just feel you have a great understanding of their position and find it to be like your own. I can identify with women on certain points, because we have some similar experiences, particularly growing up. This does not mean that I am a woman as "I identify as a man" means that I am a man.

I also have respect for your decision to stay out of the F-I thread.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:40 / 15.08.06
Thanks, I appreciate that.

Identifying with implies that you don't actually believe yourself to be a woman/man/doctor whathaveyou, you just feel you have a great understanding of their position and find it to be like your own. I can identify with women on certain points, because we have some similar experiences, particularly growing up. This does not mean that I am a woman as "I identify as a man" means that I am a man.


This makes sense to me ~ the way I see it, I can "identify with" Tom Mater the tow-truck in Cars, in that this character might provide me with my way "into the text" and give me a position to side with, sympathise with and so on. Similarly, I might "identify with" Tom Cruise in MI:iii when he's desperate to save a loved one. This doesn't mean I see myself as Cruise, or a car, or even a cruising car. They are just my way of taking part in and becoming involved with the narrative. [There is a ton of theory about "identification" with narratives and I am probably pretending it never happened].

However, do you agree a person can identify with various positions at different times, including gender positions? I gave some sense of my "story" elsewhere, in that I used to go out quite a lot as a girl, and also came out as a boy who wants to sometimes "be" a girl ~ this involved all the embarrassment, struggle and hassle you would expect ~ and also participated in the small press comics and fanzine scene as a girl, but also as a boy. So I had different personae. When I log on to other sites as a male persona, I am bringing a (slightly but significantly) different part of myself there.

So, as the perhaps lone, and I often think lesser* voice of the transvestite rather than transsexual ~ "only" an online one these days as I would look like Bette Davis in a dress ~ I am in a different position, as someone who by nature as a cross-dresser (strictly speaking, a lapsed or ex- one, but still I think it's something inherent in a person even if they don't practice it) was always all about switching from one to the other, rather than changing and adopting a new gender, and living within it long-term.


-----------
* I can't help but think of transvestites as the lesser, less brave, less real cousin of the transsexual ~ you're allowed to put people down if you're one of them! (I jest, a little). It is more playful and less committed, more of a safety-net cop-out in my opinion. Of course, I know that it's not the case that all transvestites are like the earlier, pupa form of the transsexual, building up the courage to go all the way ~ the two are related but can be quite different. But I can't help feeling that for all that being a transvestite involves quite a lot of courage and challenge, it's still a lot easier than changing your gender for life.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
20:05 / 15.08.06
I'm a bit lost when it comes to matters of identifying as/with. There is virtually nothing that I do - or want to do - which, taken by itself, I've not seen both men and women doing; in other words, it is not individual actions which indicate a masculine or feminine identity, but the general trend of the aggregate of all actions a person can, will or does take; a much harder thing to get a handle on. If, that is, we even agree that there really is such a thing as masculine or feminine for those general trends to point to in the first place.

What I can say, however, with no hesitation whatsoever, is that I'm deeply unhappy with my body and would change it in an instant; that while mentally I have difficulty identifying myself as masculine or feminine, physically - and socially - I know precisely what I want to be. I'm not sure if this is a good general model for all matters trans- "we are all, fundamentally, of a (potentially) neutral mind (subject to the effects of the body it's in, maybe; there certainly seems to be a general consensus that testosterone => anger, for instance) but may feel or prefer that both our mind and body should generally conform to (whichever) type or stereotype"; I fear that's badly worded, but hopefully the idea is there.
 
  

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