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Trans 101 2006

  
  

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*
16:20 / 07.05.06
There is an older Trans 101 thread, but I prefer people to top this one. Some threads, specifically about trans issues, are old enough that I think it would be more polite to long-standing members to ask them before topping a thread they were involved in years ago, or to refrain and stick to the newer ones.

Other fairly-recent trans threads that I think should be fine to top: Trans men/women and men/women are/are not the same, an effort toward Transphobia vs. Cisgenderism, Trans People & Queer People, Femme identity, Concerns Regarding the Lack of Effectiveness of Going Transsexual*.

If you've had questions about transgender identity, experience, or politics which you've been afraid to raise before because of my %well-known barbed wit% then feel free to raise them here. I have put the harpoon down. Also, if you wanted to comment in one of those other linked threads but felt unable to wade through the theory, or if those threads assumed too much prior knowledge, quote the relevant text and post that here as well.

I'll start with a link to GLAAD's media guide for basic writing about trans issues. Also, it will be less confusing if I start by saying that in general the following definitions apply:
Trans woman means a transgender or transsexual person who identifies and lives as a woman. The appropriate pronoun is usually "she" and "her"; some trans women may prefer gender neutral pronouns. One should ask if one is unsure.
Trans man refers to a transgender or transsexual person who identifies and lives as a man. The appropriate pronoun is usually "he" and "his"; some trans men may prefer gender neutral pronouns. One should ask if one is unsure.

*non-pointful disclosure time—that thread title is really irritating to me. If it gets changed, I'll put in a request to have the link changed in this post as well.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:34 / 07.05.06
This came up yesterday for me, in that someone asked me ablut it, and I found myself offering a very hesitant response, and pointing the asker in the direction of someone more informed.

So:
How does the term 'genderqueer' relate to term 'transgender'?
 
 
*
21:53 / 07.05.06
In my understanding of the terms, transgender, where trans means across, linguistically implies that there are two genders which are at opposite ends of a spectrum. Genderqueer implies that there is a system of gender which is considered normal, and a kind of gender which is maybe not so much systematized which is transgressive of or opposed to "normal." Genderqueer when spoken by genderqueers contains the implication that transgression and queerness is generally a good thing, at least in regards to gender normativity. Some people refer to themselves as transgender using the meaning of the word which takes trans to be short for transgressive, which as I understand it is etymologically inaccurate but linguistically useful. In that case I think these people could refer to themselves as either transgender or genderqueer with equal facility, but individuals usually have a preference and it's important to honor that.

Myself, I am both transgender and genderqueer, but the two words refer to different overlapping parts of my identity. I'm transgender because I'm a female-assigned man, and I'm genderqueer because as a man I will still wear skirts and eyeliner if I'm off to a club. Nonetheless, when a poster referred to me as genderqueer in a recent post, I felt irritated, because I thought they were emphasizing my genderqueerness instead of my transness, when I feel my transness comes first for me.

I hope this illuminates some of the complexity without being overwhelming.
 
 
matthew.
23:43 / 07.05.06
Yesterday, I went to dinner with my grandparents and my parents and we went to an Italian restaurant that my grandparents love. Anyway I arrived late thanks to work and when I came in, a male dressed as a female walked by. I sat at our table and thought nothing of it until my mother said that there's a table of transvestites. I immediately said politely, "I think they prefer to be referred to as transgendered." My father (a sort of progressive and well-informed man) disagreed, saying that some prefer the transvestite term.

Then everybody turned and stared and I got mad at them. I hissed at my mother and father to stop staring. We were sitting at a table near a window and two transgendered men walked by and my grandmother said, "Is it the Gay Pride parade today?"
"No, Grandma. That's not until June, I think."
"Oh. I'm just seeing so many of the gays."
"Well, two doesn't constitute a parade, Grandma."

Anyway, two questions:
1) How do I refer to a male-to-female transgendered person? Like that? Or, do I say that a M-T-F is a "male transgendered person"? That's where I'm confused.

2) Was I right? Is "transvestite" not preferred nomenclature?
 
 
matthew.
23:44 / 07.05.06
Ah. I just found out that it's grammatically incorrect to say "transgendered" because the "ed" suffix is unecessary. Apologies.
 
 
Ganesh
00:01 / 08.05.06
Matt, I'm answering as someone who isn't trans but has come in contact with several trans people and has asked these very questions. I'm hoping I'm reasonably on the money here, but expect to be corrected if I'm not.

1) How do I refer to a male-to-female transgendered person? Like that? Or, do I say that a M-T-F is a "male transgendered person"? That's where I'm confused.

Depends what you're talking about. It's a little difficult, if you're sitting in a restaurant and speculating on whether someone presenting as female may not have been born female, to know what's going on. You don't know for sure whether you're correct in the assumption that that person over there wasn't female-assigned at birth. And if you're correct, you don't know their motivations - whether they identify as female or whether they identify as male and are wearing female clothing for this or that reason. Or whether they identify as both male and female or neither. It happens.

If you're talking specifically about someone who's in the process of transition from male to female, "trans woman", probably.

2) Was I right? Is "transvestite" not preferred nomenclature?

Depends. Some people do identify as transvestites, some as cross-dressers, some as drag queens/kings. Without knowing more about the people in the restaurant and what motivates them, you don't know - so, technically, your father may be correct.

If I don't know, I'll generally be guided by the individual in question. If that's not possible and I have to describe someone in the third person, "trans" kinda covers most bases.
 
 
Triplets
00:19 / 08.05.06
How fast is a trans person's vehicle form usually?
 
 
Aertho
00:23 / 08.05.06
Low snark, dear.
 
 
matthew.
01:56 / 08.05.06
Thank you for the response, Ganesh.

On another note, I'm finding Barbelith to be very illuminating and educational as of late. It seems that at work and now in life, I have become a watchdog for people saying rather unexamined things such as the above, and other examples (one being in another thread).

It seems that Barbelith has become a presence in my mind, sort of like The Force, wherein be mindful of others I must.
 
 
*
05:34 / 08.05.06
matt, just to add to what Ganesh said (quite correctly, in my opinion), if I heard someone refer to a MTF trans person as a transgendered male or a male transgender person, I would correct them firmly and possibly with some degree of snark, depending on circumstances. Best usage places the emphasis on the trans person's gender of identity, not the gender they were assigned.
 
 
Triplets
06:18 / 08.05.06
I would correct them firmly and possibly with some degree of snark, depending on circumstances.

I'm not sure snark will be winning the transcommunity more supporters, id.
 
 
Ganesh
06:22 / 08.05.06
I'm not sure it behoves trans people to modify their responses in order to 'win supporters'...
 
 
*
06:25 / 08.05.06
Thanks for that feedback, Emily.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
06:37 / 08.05.06
A question which runs around in my head a lot is this: Is it morally and ethically correct for me to want to spend a lot of money - or, perhaps, spend other people's money - on gender reassignment (etc.)? Given that such a lot (for me, at any rate) of money would almost certainly bring more happiness into the world if given to charity?
(I'm not suggesting I would give it to charity, just that it would probably be better/less selfish of me to do so.)
Arguably my spending money on myself would have a knock-on effect of, however indirectly and slowly, improving the overall effectiveness and acceptedness of g.r. methods, and is thus an investment in other people's futures. I just can't shake the feeling, though, that if I'm going to spend that much on myself I'd be a better person if I bought igloos for starving African tigers or something, instead.
 
 
*
07:04 / 08.05.06
That's a decision individuals have to make for themselves, Kay. I think I am a better and more effective human being when I am living genuinely, which allows me to do more good. A similar argument might be made for 90-year-old people who are getting extremely costly organ transplants. Couldn't that money go to something that does more good than keeping an old-age pensioner around for two or three more years? It's a dangerous line of thinking. Who gets to decide what "good" is, or how much a person should be compelled to do? Why is this argument used regarding trans people's medical care when it's not used regarding the medical care of people who need facial reconstruction surgery or similar?

If you're trying to decide for yourself, I encourage you to spend a great deal of time in self-reflection. If you feel you can do without medical transition and that is your preference for any reason, I encourage trans people to try doing that until such time as they realize that it's keeping them from being a fully effective person anymore. I also think that just because a gift might be given with that money doesn't mean it would be wise giving necessarily, and unwise giving can do harm, so it's very possible that using the money to become more effectively who one is may be the use of the money which does the most good.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
14:07 / 08.05.06
Hello there. I too will venture to be as non-snarky as possible in this thread, and answer questions graciously to the best of my knowledge. And maybe I'll ask some questions as well.

It's probably worth adding a general caveat to this thread now, before it gets confusing. To wit: gender variant practices and identities tend to be quite localised within particular geographical and communal contexts, even though terms might circulate in many places. So, the meaning of 'transgender' in the UK might be a little different to the meaning of 'transgender' in the US, or particular parts of the US. I can think of at least five different definitions of 'transgender'. Some are quite contradictory. So, bear in mind that people answer to the best of their knowledge, but if we/they give contradictory answers, that's because these things are never set in stone.

GGM said, What's the differnce between 'genderqueer' and 'transgender'?

Depends on who you're talking to, I suspect. I think it's likely that folk who identify primarily as genderqueer, and not as trans or transgender or transsexual as well, tend to be non-operative. (Qualifiers, qualifiers.) For me, the 'trans' in transgender can be defined as both 'across' and 'beyond', in the sense that some self-id'ing transgender people don't feel that they've transitioned from one gender to the other, but rather talk about finding a gendered embodiment that is both/neither.

And I would describe myself as 'transgendered' rather than 'transgender', matt. I like verbal descriptions more than nouns. And, 'He's a transgender,' sounds almost as bad as, 'He's a gay,' to my ears. Just a personal preference, mind.

I have a question maybe someone can help me with. This weekend I was writing a lecture on 'transgender' (If people are interested, I can PM you the lectures notes. It's pretty basic, be warned.) I was looking for evidence to back up the most commonly heard theory of the origin of the qword 'transgender': that 'transgenderist' was first used by Virginia Prince to talk about non-operative/non-homone folk who lived as women. But I found a website that disputes Prince's coinage, pointing out that Prince's writings of the period don't feature 'transgenderist' at all, and instead claiming that psychologists and sex therapists were using 'transgenderist' at conferences in the early 70s.

Does anyone know more? I've lost the webite URL, but I'll attempt to find it again.

And Kay, this is a problem I wrestled with when I was collecting money for surgery. I don't know how to answer it for you, but I thought of the many poeple who are crazy poor and still save up money to pay for GRS. I thought about how effective I was as an activist and teacher when I didn't feel, some days, that I could live without that particular surgery. I'm definitely more effective now. (At least I think so.)

I think that guilt about spending money on surgery can act as a way to beat ourselves up about needing to do this, or reducing its importance and its urgency. I mean, people buy flash cars, boats, etc... and don't give a shit. Why feel guilty about something that may make your life liveable?

Besides which, most 'charities' tend to spend a lot of money on administration, proselytising and so on, and a tiny percentage actuallly goes to the people you intend it for. If you're still serious about donating your resources/cash to people who don't have any, post surgery, find some direct way of doing it -- a way that you care about. Organise benefit events for people you know who can't afford surgery. Contribute funds to groups that are fighting for transpeople's rights. It all evens out in the end.
 
 
Jackie Susann
06:38 / 09.05.06
I think this will work best if I give some context before I try to figure out how to word my questions. I'm in my late 20s, and have lived all my life as a male, and most of my adult life in queer or queer-friendly communities that were at least relatively receptive to gender transition. I've played with drag and genderfuck, worn some great outfits, been crowned Queen of at least one disco. Had close, sometimes extremely close, friendships and relationships with trans folk. But, like I say, I'm still a man.

I only say 'but' because, at least since I was 16, I've thought about changing my gender. Sometimes it's a pretty vague theme running in the background, other times it's an intensely active and agonising yearning; other times it's a carefully thought-out plan (I'm a Virgo). I still think about it, and I think, as far as you can ever tell this sort of thing, I will think about it as long as I live as a man. But I am not sure if I will ever change my gender.

There are lots of reasons, many of them probably obvious. Aside from obvious stigma and discrimination, I worry about becoming less sexually attractive. I worry about how I would afford a whole new wardrobe. I worry about basic cosmetic skills, which - as someone who can't shave without missing a spot or two - I just don't have. And I am given pause that, while there are a half dozen transmen in my phone book, I don't know even one MTF. Plus loads of other stuff, some big, some small, etc.

So my question is - those of you who have transitioned or are transitioning, when and how did you make that decision? Is there a clearly specifiable moment, or something more like a narrative? Did you have similar anxieties to the ones I mentioned, or others, and how and to what extent did you resolve them? How intense and persistent do you think someone's cross-gender identification should be before they transition? (I realise the last question is basically unanswerable, but I am curious to hear your opinions.)

I'd also like to hear from anyone who's considered transitioning at length and decided against it, and their reasons why.
 
 
*
06:59 / 09.05.06
I spent a few years thinking hard about things, reading a lot, going to groups. I spent a few years trying to live as an agendered or third-gender person. I spent a few years asking everyone trans I knew the same questions you just asked. I never got the unshakeable certainty I thought I was supposed to have. Then one day I realized that no matter how hard I tried to pass without hormones it wasn't happening, and my efforts were making me unhappy—and furthermore I was making an effort and my failure was distressing me. So I called the endo.

Since then, I don't think more than three days have gone by without at least a few minutes of serious doubt and worry that I might have made the wrong choice. The worry might be triggered by feeling unattractive, or by nothing whatever that I can tell. I think I will never have that certainty that I once assumed was an absolute prerequisite for transition. But I still think I made the right decision. Is this doubt something you can live with, if necessary?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:03 / 09.05.06
Aside from outright hostility and violence, what's the single most distressing thing that non-transfolk do/say around you? The thing that makes you wish there actually were 101 classes and we all had to take one every year.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:26 / 09.05.06
Mordant: incorrect pronoun usage. I just had an awful week where my brother, my therapist and my partner all fucked up the pronoun thing and referred to me as 'she'. My brother and my partner didn't realise they'd done it and had to be gently reminded. My therapist 'confessed' that she'd done it while talking to someone else about me, not in my presence. After four years of having worked pretty hard to make people understand that I am 'he' now, and that the only way I can have a relationship with them is as 'he', it made me feel really rotten and hopeless. These are the moment when I lie awake wondering if there's ever going to be a time when people 'get it', and/or if something about me prevents them from getting it.

And Jackie, of course you know this already, but broken down 'the big decision' comes down to making micrological decisions about a host of small, mostly alterable, things, and experimenting with how it might work if you were going to do this. Then it comes down to making a distinction between the things you want to change, and those you don't. There is only one decision that really can't be undone, and that's surgery.

You know this too, but most of my decisions were made by the fact that I just kept experimenting with more and more things, feeling it out, hormones, pronouns, name, and then suddenly I was 'transitioning'.
 
 
elene
12:57 / 09.05.06
Well, if affording a whole new wardrobe and a lack of cosmetic skills are really the major factors holding you back, Jackie, then you don't really want to do this.

What scared me most was the prospect of being alone, which is silly because I manage very well alone. What should have scared me is the fact that some people no longer consider one human once one's done this, or rather one is this (as they see it, I think). I'd also hoped to have a child, with a certain woman for whom I cared a great deal, and still do, and it took ages for me to give up on that idea. My father didn't want me to do this, at all and especially not while he was still alive, and while he was dying of cancer I let his wish hold me back as well.

The fear of being alone included the fear of being sexually unattractive. It's strange being trans. One is extremely exotic and, secretly, very erotic for many men. But one is unacceptable too, hardly human. I've got to get an operation if I ever want to be human again.

In the years during which I lived wholeheartedly as a man, say from the ages of 24 or 5 through 37, I thought it was too late to do anything about it. I'd missed the boat - almost literally because there was no way of doing this where I was - and was just stuck being me, a particular version of me who was constantly frustrated but otherwise ... quite acceptable.

The single most distressing thing that non-transfolk do/say around you, Mordant, was one of my employers telling me no one could ever have any respect for me again. That doesn't happen everyday though . Most people - I mean those who know - are very nice, transition wasn't difficult or very embarrassing, but I know it distresses some of them. It would be best for them if they didn't know, and no doubt for me too (if I didn't).
 
 
*
14:30 / 09.05.06
Pronouns are the single most distressing thing, and for me it's not so much the pronouns as the way people respond or don't respond when I correct them. When I correct people who should already know, there's the lengthy apology. Or I correct people who don't know and there's this shocked, pitying look and a lengthy apology. Or I correct people and they CANNOT HEAR ME because it so unthinkable that I could go by male pronouns that even when I say this to them clearly they do not react at all. I know they heard the last thing I said, whatever it was, so they aren't hearing impaired. They're either ignoring me because it's more convenient or because this concept is so far outside their worldview that I temporarily do not exist when I'm invoking it. This has happened too many times for coincidence.

Here's what I want when I correct someone's pronoun usage:
"Sorry, he." And then try really hard to avoid the same mistake in the future. That's all. Maybe someone else wants the lengthy apology, but I've never heard that from another trans person.

Other annoyances: In my house, people often get into discussions about some aspects of trans politics or trans people in the media. They get that it's not okay to ask me directly to represent All The Trans Ever, but this leads to them talking about these issues around me and then casting me little sideways glances to see if I'm going to chime in, or if I start to look disapproving. Which eventually leads me to be The Trans Spokesperson anyway. People treating me as if I were a lesbian, in subtle ways—maybe I don't know what the hell you're talking about when you run off a string of Ani DiFranco references at me, okay? Feeling really shitty and left out at parties when the gay boys and the gay girls sort of divide up and the group I identify with doesn't seem interested in including me, but this is really about the layers of interpretation I put on their behavior. Then there was this:
"Which of you gay boys can tell me whether this looks good?"
"I think it looks good."
"Oh, thanks, but I wanted a real g—Greg's opinion. Greg, what do you think?"
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
15:23 / 09.05.06
So my question is - those of you who have transitioned or are transitioning, when and how did you make that decision? Is there a clearly specifiable moment, or something more like a narrative? Did you have similar anxieties to the ones I mentioned, or others, and how and to what extent did you resolve them? How intense and persistent do you think someone's cross-gender identification should be before they transition? (I realise the last question is basically unanswerable, but I am curious to hear your opinions.)

I'd also like to hear from anyone who's considered transitioning at length and decided against it, and their reasons why.

I've already made the big decision - at least insofar as I had, uh, started negotiations with the medical establishment - and then drifted away from actually doing anything much due to other issues (new job, new town, ill health &c.); I get the impression this isn't all that unusual a state to be in. First time I raised the issue with my doctor was the single most embarrassing - and possibly the happiest, as well - day of my life. All of my friends that I've discussed it with have been supportive, so that's not really a problem; my problems at present are:

1) I'm about 6'. Not by any means improbable, but a 'tell' when combined with everything else.
2) I'd have to quit my job, which I generally enjoy.
3) I fear abuse from the general public, since my local neck of the woods isn't exactly Tolerance City.
4) I generally aim for an androgynous look. I don't want to be forced to aim for a specifically 'female' look in order to be 'convincing' because, y'know, %all girls wear makeup and 'girly' clothes%. I'm reasonably passable when dressed 'girly', but if I wore the clothes I'd want to wear I'd stand out a mile. This really ticks me off.
5) I've still got medical woes that need sorting before I do anything.

So, um, yeah. I'm on indefinite deferment through fear and laziness, rather than through lack of desire.
 
 
Ex
15:41 / 09.05.06
Ooh - Starstruck Kay has reminded me of a question I wanted to ask.

How do the pressures to 'pass' affect you?

Directed at anyone, but I'd like respondents with specific trans (gendered, sexual) experience not to get swamped.
I've got some more specific subquestions, but I don't want to accidentally restrict responses.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
00:24 / 10.05.06
id, that idiot needs a visit from the Fuckwit Patrol.

About pronouns: I have this dilemma where, as I said above, people pretty close to me, in fact, a couple of the closest, are still not getting pronouns right after a long practice time. When it happens (especially with my partner), I do want the long apology, because for this to be happening still seems quite inexplicable. Every time it happens -- which is not often -- I get pretty pissed off, and worse, I feel that maybe I should be more assertive and cut ties with the people who aren't pronouning correctly. In fact, I feel almost guilty that I'm not, as if the Trans Activist Police are going to disapprove of me for not having enough self-respect. And at the same time, I feel that if I sent away all the people who fuck up pronouns, I would have no family, no lover and about half of my friends.

So, I am wondering how other trans/genderqueer/gender variant people deal with mistakes from people who are really close to you, and with whom it matters a great deal. If you do compromise, by being forgiving when people fuck up, and people continue to make mistakes, how do you deal with the resulting pain and still be 'forgiving'?

(Angst is my middle name.)
 
 
*
03:06 / 10.05.06
I think if someone really important to me were still getting fucked up on pronouns and I felt comfortable doing so, I would very gently take them aside and tell them I needed them to practice with me. Then we would play the "(entity), he" game. I would say "Does (entity) like mushrooms?" "No, he does not like mushrooms. Does (entity) like birthday cake?" "Yes, he likes birthday cake." until they felt so thoroughly embarassed that they never screwed up again. In fact I'd probably pick one of the phrases which came up frequently in that game and if they screwed up again I'd repeat it back: "(entity), he's a weirdfucker" or something else memorable. This is cruel in an entirely different way than shouting or issuing ultimatums, and equally likely to irritate, but also harder to take exception to.

Of course, oddly, mistakes from strangers have always irritated me more than mistakes from long-time friends. The only reason I can think of for this is that I don't quite comprehend that I don't look male to strangers (okay, personal problem, I know), whereas I understand that anyone who's known me more than three years knew me as a woman first, and those habits are hard to break. Absolutely hardest are those people in-between—people who've only known me since I started transitioning, but with whom I've become close. I feel I can't be angry with them (after all, deep down I still think it's fundamentally my fault I don't look male enough and therefore inconvenience them), but it hurts an awful lot more than when strangers do it. But prolonged apologies only make things worse for me, always, and I recently realized it's because of that feeling that I'm a bad person for inconveniencing people with my gender. That I'm making them do extra work by remembering the right pronoun is bad enough; if I make them feel bad by correcting them, I want to sink through the floor.

Yes, this probably does make me a bit 'neurotic.' Where's my rubber band?*

To address Ex's question on passing:
At first, I was mostly concerned with not passing as a woman. Since I was identifying as third-gender then, I just struggled to have my assigned gender not be readily identifiable. But that position was untenable, and I started paring away female mannerisms ruthlessly without even being aware I was doing it. Until people started asking me why I was so damned angry all the time. I wasn't—but I was trying ridiculously hard to not give myself away with my gestures and my way of speaking and talking only in short gruff sentences and singing along with Leonard Cohen to tear up my throat so my voice would sound deeper just for a little. I realized I was withholding food because it would delay menses and I couldn't stand my female body fat—I skipped that part earlier, sorry—and I knew at that point that pressure to pass just so I wouldn't have to negotiate my gender with every stranger was making me into something I wasn't. I'm not Heath Ledger's character from Brokeback Mountain, thank the Gods. (That's my mother.) Pressure to be readable easily as male pushed me to transition so I wouldn't have to police my behavior quite so much. Besides which, it was becoming downright unhealthy.

Since starting transition, although I'm still by no means read as male all the time, I feel more comfortable behaving in ways that seem more natural to me. I am going to gesture and speak in a non-monotone, and I do naturally smile a lot, and I walk like a fairy, and that's just that. It was far easier and gentler on me to start injecting myself every ten days (and I'm terrified of needles) than to constrain my behavior to fit a stereotype so I could have comfortable social interactions. Which I wasn't having anyway because I was constraining my behavior to fit a etc.


*One year for Lent (I'm not Catholic, but I have Catholic friends) I decided to give up "being neurotic," which was what I labeled my worrying about what other people thought of me to excess, and my trying too hard to please everyone. "Being neurotic" was a convenient shorthand. In order to make this work, I wore a rubber band on my wrist and snapped it when I caught myself indulging in this behavior. One day I took the rubber band off to take a shower, and when I got out it had disappeared. I ran through the apartment, betowled, to the hysterical amusement of my roommates, shouting "Where's my rubber band? I can't find my rubber band! How can I stop being neurotic if I can't find my rubber band?!?" And now you too, to your everlasting sorrow, know that story.
 
 
Ex
07:39 / 10.05.06
Thanks, id - that's really interesting. I'd heard people saying that needing to consistently 'pass' would be a pressure that put them off transitioning (see, if I'm not badly summarising, one of Starstruck Kay's points above) - I hadn't thought of the reverse being also possible.

Do go careful with the Leonard Cohen, though (small doses, keep an eye out for sideeffects).
 
 
*
07:41 / 10.05.06
Oddly, not doing that anymore has more to do with the fact that I no longer have a car than the fact that I'm on testosterone.
 
 
Ganesh
09:44 / 10.05.06
Good stuff, Mister Disco and Entity; I'm particularly interested in the influence of testosterone on one's own behaviour and the behaviour of others. One thing I've heard from various trans men is that the pronouns issue frequently resolves itself, gradually, as physically masculinising changes start to take effect: changes in appearance - and particularly the deepening of vocal pitch - seem to act as a reminder to friends and family to use the correct pronoun. They're no longer having to make conscious effort. This probably ties in which what Entity's saying about taking T being easier, in some ways, than expending vast amounts of time and energy trying to constrain one's behaviour into self-consciously 'male' limits.
 
 
elene
11:24 / 10.05.06
Is passing the general impression one gives, triggering recognition, or the mechanics of fitting in completely, or is it both of these?

I was increasingly androgynous for a long time, and though I suppose the changes I made to myself during that time were all aimed at passing, I didn't really see it like that. I was changing myself. It was fundamental, whereas passing's a matter of being accepted, I think.

I find there's huge pressure to pass, in this latter sense. Both men and women want the tone, the opinions, the smile and desires in approximately the right place, so much so that I'm sure eventually I'll pass all the time without making any conscious effort to reach that point. I resist this pressure, to a degree, not because I feel it's against my best interests - that I oughtn't comply with it - but rather because identity inertia requires that I let it happen gradually. I know myself, as do others, as anything but a complete woman. I need to maintain a reasonably consistent identity. I want my intonation to eventually become completely convincing, for instance, I don't want to use an artificial voice. So it'll take time.

Of course the thing is that generally I do pass nowadays, in the sense that when someone sees me or talks with me they see or talk with a woman. People rarely use the wrong pronoun, and only those who've known me from long before. I'm in a position where everyone expects me to pass - completely - and that's the pressure to do so.

Have I got this backwards?
 
 
Ex
11:48 / 10.05.06
Not at all, as far as my enquiry went. Thanks - really fascinating.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:23 / 10.05.06
Those answers were very helpful. I like the pronoun game.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
13:16 / 10.05.06
(id)entity, don't you find the gender terrain pretty indeterminate in san francisco? when i lived there, it was pretty much impossible for me to know which pronoun to use among the queer crowd unless a specific person tells me about his/her preference. i've seen really butch lesbians still want to be called she and those who are not on T wishing to be referred to as he. so i try to wait for guidance or ask if i'm at all confused. i suspect that the pronoun problems would be less magnified if you lived in a different city.
 
 
*
14:02 / 10.05.06
sibyline, in one sense you've got it absolutely right: Don't assume what pronoun someone uses unless they tell you. For instance, it makes absolute sense to me that a butch lesbian would wish to be called she and a non-transitioning FTM would wish to be called he, but these two groups are not always distinguishable from each other at first glance. (This does not make them the same or nearly the same or so close together to be almost interchangeable, which was the sense I got from your post.) However, the problem as I see it is not that people don't know which pronoun to accord me because I'm a cutting-edge genderqueer. The problem is that I'm not a cutting-edge genderqueer; I'm kind of a run-of-the-mill academic fag, and apparently I look like a lesbian. This would be a problem in San Francisco or any other city. In some less urban environments, people will be less likely to assume "lesbian" than to assume "man", perhaps, but I'd rather not live in Iowa. If I were passing consistently as a man, very few people would call me "she" unless they were being camp about it.

At any rate, once I inform someone of my pronoun preferences, it's no longer a matter of their not knowing and not wanting to assume—from that point on, it's that they forget, the effort of making the mental switch between my appearance and their actions is too much bother, or they don't choose to use male pronouns for me for some other reason.

And yeah, Ganesh, I'm generally happier because I've let go of a lot of the conscious effort in expectation of T making the difference. So far it hasn't exactly. I'm concerned I may be one of those FTMs with the perpetually breaking voice. I'm just over a year on T and I'm not passing with any regularity. (And it's more frustrating to me today than it has been for awhile; I got another of those "not quite a gay man" gay man snubs last night. So I'm sorry if the tone of this comes across in any way as sn*rky. I don't intend for it to.)
 
 
Disco is My Class War
16:45 / 11.05.06
I'm particularly interested in the influence of testosterone on one's own behaviour and the behaviour of others. One thing I've heard from various trans men is that the pronouns issue frequently resolves itself, gradually, as physically masculinising changes start to take effect: changes in appearance - and particularly the deepening of vocal pitch - seem to act as a reminder to friends and family to use the correct pronoun. They're no longer having to make conscious effort.

Ya, well. I've been on T for 3.5 years now, and although I look quite different, I still don't pass all the time. My voice has broken and readjusted; I have visible stubble unless I shave every other day; etc. People who are disposed to read me and my partner as lesbians call us 'ladies', and because we live in a lovely progressive city with queer-friendliness abounding, we get 'ladies' rather a lot. Alone, I pass more often.

(id)entity said:

However, the problem as I see it is not that people don't know which pronoun to accord me because I'm a cutting-edge genderqueer. The problem is that I'm not a cutting-edge genderqueer; I'm kind of a run-of-the-mill academic fag, and apparently I look like a lesbian.

That's similar to how I'd explain my effect on people. Except I probably am pretty genderqueer.

Ex, I'd be interested in hearing more about passing stuff. Passing is possibly the thing that used to freak me out the most. I hid in baggy teenage boy clothes for a couple of years because I thought I would pass better that way, and it's sorta refreshing not to do that any more, because I care less about passing.
 
  

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