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Giving your seat up on the tube.

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ONLY NICE THINGS

08:22 / 05.05.06

You know, reacting to the death of your mother by deciding to enter a talent show... that's just messed up. I'm not saying Robby was a violent psychopath, nor that he killed his own mother. I'm just saying.

08:25 / 05.05.06

I probably wouldn't give my seat to Robby, even if he asked politely.
would you let him kick you in the shins, if he asked politely?
i dont get the feeling robby is really a chair person so much as a kicking person...
i think wall street was just unluky to find himself in a venndangerous situational crossover.

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:41 / 05.05.06

i guess growth can come from pain, huh.

That's what you realise when you get to the INDIGO worldview.

BLAM!

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:41 / 05.05.06

And when I say "get" what I mean is "ascend".

08:55 / 05.05.06

Consider me bewilbered.

09:15 / 05.05.06

Why does he need glasses? He's Borg for Pete's sake.

09:19 / 05.05.06

its a defensive measure.
they make one less inclined to hit the wearer, giving hir that all important window of assimilation.

dont be fooled!
he has twenty twenty vison!
it's only clear glass!
and it's not even really glass!

dont give him your seat either.

09:19 / 05.05.06

The glasses are filtering his ultraviolet stare for the mauve mases?

Not in the Face

09:30 / 05.05.06

its a defensive measure. . .

dont give him your seat either.

Perhaps they're to stop 10 year olds motherfuckers, overwrought at the death of their romatnically attached parent and traumatised by premonitions of their own future death at the hand of a fertiliser bomb from kicking him in the shins in a futle effort to enforce a rigid moral code on society and so do something good before he dies that his lover/mother can see.

Providing of course that those weren't her specs and the borg had assimilated them. In which case she won't she shit no matter how high the cloud

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:15 / 05.05.06

OK, I've calmed down a bit now. Maybe I was a little harsh on Robby. But, holistically speaking, he's hardly a Steve, is he?

13:22 / 05.05.06

Barbecollage time.

just dont ever look a man who gives you his seat in the mouth...
Yeah. It's just a seat, and being nice to people can't hurt

A "found poem," no?

Stoats. Robby is ROBBY. He's not STEVE and he doesn't want to be. Especially with that whole Adam and Steve problem that I just don't want to get into right now, ok? well, but, ok: let me just say this: Robby is not the kind of guy who "gives seat" to every Tom, Dick, or Harry who comes along...

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:25 / 05.05.06

that whole Adam and Steve problem

Ah - no wonder Ben got married.

13:47 / 05.05.06

I just had a look at the mum's net discussion. Most of it is fairly predictable, but there are some interesting reactions, including--

i have travelled with my ill dh in rush hour to get to guys for a fetal cardiac scan when i was pregnant. if it had been crowded and only one seat available i would've insisted he sat down and not me. he looked fine, and to some people it would've looked odd. but to me it seems sensible. my dh has a life threatening heart condition. i was pregnant and feeling ok.

and

On the flip side, I was once sat on the tube going home from work, when a heavily pregnant woman got on, she stuck her stomach in my face and kept sighing as I didn't offer her my seat.
However I was also pg albeit only 12 weeks but I felt incredibly ill, and dizzy....... But she had no way of knowing this. I couldn't articulate it to her either, as I was concentrating on not throwing up and telling my self I was almost home...the longest tube journey of my life.

(I take it "dh" means "dear/darling husband"?)

Strangely, none of those mums are talking about Robby. Which I think is just selfish, really.

14:19 / 05.05.06

alas, I suppose the point of those two posts is that pregnancy is not always a disabling and that pregnant women will stand on public transport if they feel fine and see someone else in need. It challenges the position that all pregnant women expect other people to be their "handmaidens" and on the whole will ask for help only when it is actually needed, y'know, like everyone else does.

And sure, some women will passively aggressively "ask" for a seat by sighing and moaning at someone who looks healthy in a seat, but both parties are at fault in that instance because seated person has not explained their need and pregnant woman has not explicity asked. But what're you gonna do? People can be assholes when pregnant, just like everyone else.

alas, I do get the impression that you think there's some sort of taboo against saying pregnant women are anything other than saints, and I don't think that's the case. Pregnant women are, however, in highly specific circumstances and occasionally need a little help and consideration different to that of the rest of us. Is that so wrong?

And, by the way, I wholeheartedly agree with your point that- "there are many circles where having children does bring out a kind of latent misogyny, and--as a whole--the culture I live in (US) pays a lot more lip-service to valuing motherhood than it gives proper support to it, and this is I believe primarily due to the expectation, even requirement, of self-sacrifice on the part of women." You can add the UK to that list too. Fuck it, you can add the rest of the world to that list.

14:49 / 05.05.06

Nobody's Girl--I agree that in this context my position may have come across as a little ambiguous and you were right to point it out--perhaps especially since I brought in the whole derailing Robby thing. So let me be clear: politeness is good. Pregnancy is a human condition, experienced by human beings who remain fully human and who deserve to be treated with dignity, with integrity.

Watching out for each other, noticing when other people need help, and not always making the one who is need ask for help is good. Because being in need and having to ask for help is also tiring, can start to feel like groveling. And on the flip side, it's great, also, if people who need help can continue to find the moral strength to ask straightforwardly for the help they need, realizing that people who aren't responding are sometimes busy with problems of their own that may be invisible but serious, and that their ignorance, which might seem to be inspired by wilful malevolence, may not be so but, in fact, might be just unaware. I am guilty of being unaware when by all rights I should be aware, and it's helpful when people inform me of this courteously but firmly. It's also helpful if I don't get defensive in my embarrassment of not being aware by taking it out on the person who asked for help.

We are humans on all sides of this equation, and we all fail in expressing the fulness of compassion for people around us. We say the wrong things, we do the right thing for perhaps dubious reasons, we do the wrong thing for all the right reasons.

I found those two interesting because they complicate the picture--but I see now that without contextualization they could seem to be saying "see? some pregnant women...", which was not my intent. (My word "predictable" didn't help, as it could carry a whiff of "predictably whining." I should have been more clear: "while many of these women were understandably and reasonably upset with Jub's problematic position...") I see them as making the whole picture more complex, more human. Which to me is a good thing. But I do apologize for too flippant in my presentation.

14:55 / 05.05.06

It challenges the position that all pregnant women expect other people to be their "handmaidens" and on the whole will ask for help only when it is actually needed, y'know, like everyone else does.

I worked as a salesperson at a maternity clothing store for a while (catering particularly to working moms, we had a lot of pregnancy office wear). The company rules for us included having chairs handy for pregnant customers to sit down, offering them a drink of water while they shop, holding clothes for them as they browse so they don't have to carry them around, having a clean bathroom available. I think it's important to point out that I talked to scores of pregnant women while working there and a lot of them felt kind of bad or guilty about having to receive any help or special "priveleges" (like water!). Also, a lot of first time mothers felt uncomfortable, unnerved, or even embarrassed about the changes their bodies were going through and the special demands their bodies were placing on them. It upset some women that they weren't able to stand up and walk around as easily as they used to. Far from expecting to have handmaidens at their beck and call, most pregnant women I met seemed to wish they didn't have to ask for help so often.

16:18 / 05.05.06

Thanks for clearing that up, alas, I did find your post a tad ambiguous.

Y'know, I just wanted to let the other side be heard, Barbelith can be such a boys club sometimes.

20:48 / 05.05.06

And sure, some women will passively aggressively "ask" for a seat by sighing and moaning at someone who looks healthy in a seat, but both parties are at fault in that instance because seated person has not explained their need and pregnant woman has not explicity asked.

Yeah, but who ought to be more explicit in this circumstance? I ask because, faced with a sighing, moaning whoever, I generally won't 'explain my need' to be seated - because I usually avoid initiating conversation with someone on the Tube if they don't talk to me first, no matter how sighy/moany they are. I think that, if someone wants one's seat, the onus is on them to say so explicitly. If they don't, then they are at fault to a greater extent than the seated party who has failed to accurately divine their sighing and moaning.

And yes, I agree that Barbelith can seem like a "boys' club", but this is a rather wider topic than this particular thread. Might be an idea to unpack this within the feminism or Woman-Friendly thread.

21:18 / 05.05.06

Or unpick.

But I lost that argument.

foolish fat finger

21:32 / 05.05.06

I give up my seat for anyone. it's nice to be nice, isn't it?

the only time I don't is if I think they might be offended 'is he tryin to say I am fat/old/unable to stand for twenty minutes?!'

10:33 / 06.05.06

If they don't, then they are at fault to a greater extent than the seated party who has failed to accurately divine their sighing and moaning.

Yes and no. I agree it's stupid to just huff and puff and hope someone gets the point, but if you notice it enough to get pissed off about it I reckon you should say something.

10:41 / 06.05.06

Or perhaps sigh and moan back.

Whisky Priestess

21:31 / 06.05.06

seeing's as there's probably only about four people on Barbelith who've actually been pregnant

Whoever said this obviously hasn't been reading the Barbe-babies thread(s).

Also, let us bear in mind that it is possible to be pregnant and not carry that pregnancy to term. So perhaps childless posters are not necessarily unqualified to comment on pregnancy issues?

21:37 / 06.05.06

I think NG meant pregnant as in carried a baby in their own body.

00:08 / 07.05.06

And I think you've possibly misunderstood the above but one post.

Whisky Priestess

00:12 / 07.05.06

Boboss - As did I. To clarify (perhaps superfluously, considering that as far as I'm aware male pregnancy is still a physical impossibility) - childless female posters.

(No offence, like. I am aware of the "we're pregnant" school of thought but as the original post was to do with the discomfort/problems of a pregnant lady what had a baby in her own tummy, I didn't think I had to state the bleedin' obvious.)

01:50 / 07.05.06

Boboss, I can spell it out for you via PM, if you like. I've done Obs/Gyn.

02:38 / 07.05.06

Just read over the Mumsnet thread and yes, most of the responses are predictable in that the topic was framed in such a way as to provoke a particular response (as was the original 'heartwarming' anecdote) and, for the most part, it did indeed provoke that response. Some are more complex, however, pointing out that "evident need" isn't always easy to gauge, and isn't always skewed towards the standing pregnant woman. One poster used the example of having recently had a blood test and feeling sick and faint: I could massively relate to that, as my own blood pressure drops precipitously after venepuncture and I frequently spend the trip home feeling queasy, blood rushing in my ears, wanting nothing more than to sit/lie flat.

It also made me aware again of the range of possibilities in terms of the seated man's situation. In the past, I've treated people with paranoid or phobic disorders, and it's not at all uncommon for them to find public transport a particular ordeal. The whole 'battening down, hiding behind a paper and not acknowledging anyone' approach, while readily perceptible as simple rudeness, may be someone's way of managing a necessary but traumatic journey. Thinking of some of my own patients who used the Tube and putting them in the position of Selfish Yuppie, I don't know that they'd be able to 'explain their need' if challenged ("I am presently experiencing a panic attack, and require to remain seated"; "I have a schizophreniform disorder, and would rather not be having this interaction with a stranger") and being fixed upon by a Heroic Child apparently intent on drawing attention to them would, for many, be distinctly nightmarish.

08:18 / 08.05.06

Also, let us bear in mind that it is possible to be pregnant and not carry that pregnancy to term. So perhaps childless posters are not necessarily unqualified to comment on pregnancy issues?

Women who have aborted their pregnancy are unlikely to have made it past 24 weeks unless a malformation was found in the foetus and therefore most women who have aborted their pregnancy, whilst probably aware of some of the discomfort of pregnancy, will be wholly unaware of the discomforts of later pregnancy which would require a seat on public transport. I personally wasn't too bothered by the discomforts of pregnancy (other than a bit of morning sickness in the beginning) until 30+ weeks, so I'm not so sure your point is relevant, Priestess.

Another option for a childless woman who knows how uncomfortable pregnancy is is a woman who has endured the loss of a stillbirth. Some of these women will have made it to late pregnancy, but it's hardly a common scenario.

08:55 / 08.05.06

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I have never been pregnant and yet, amazingly, I can tell you with 100% confidence that a very pregnant woman (ie not a woman who has been pregnant in the past) might be more in need of my tube seat than me. I cannot however say whether she is more in need than another person whose medical history is unknown to me.

I do not scan the carriage to find out people to whom I would volunteer my seat, so they would probably have to indicate their need to me or stand right in front of me. I also suspect that enduring the tube for a short time, erect or no, might be one of the less inconvenient aspects of having Junior sloshing about inside and preparing to pop out.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:00 / 08.05.06

Well, it's also possible that people who do not currently occupy the role of mother might have experienced pregnancy - that their children have been adopted, or taken into care, or are no longer children.

However, I'm not sure what this has to do with giving up one's seat or not.

09:28 / 08.05.06

My post above was only an attempt to point out that NG is probably right when she says that there's only about 4 people on Barbelith who have actually been pregnant.

I wasn't trying to give a lecture on the definition of the word.

k

thx

bye

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:54 / 08.05.06

"Have experienced later-term pregancy", perhaps. Even then, we're guessing.

Ganesh's point is interesting - one thing about late-term pregnancy is that it's blindingly obvious, as opposed to other conditions which may be disabling but cannot easily be communicated. Which, I think, is again why I think that the hypothetical child's behaviour was not admirable, or at least would probably not be admirable in a situation not designed specifically to present it as admirable.

16:56 / 08.05.06

My post above was only an attempt to point out that NG is probably right when she says that there's only about 4 people on Barbelith who have actually been pregnant.

As Whisky Priestess points out, this may be something of an assumption. We have very little idea how many people on Barbelith have been pregnant.

I wasn't trying to give a lecture on the definition of the word.

In which case, not providing a helpful definition of the word might've been a better way to go.

ONLY NICE THINGS

17:23 / 08.05.06

OK, posits:

1) There are probably more active male members of Barbelith than female.
2) Of that minority of female posters, not all have been pregnant
3) Of that minority of female posters who have been pregnant, not all have taken that pregnancy to late term.
4) Therefore, it is statisticaly likely that a majority of posters reading a particular thread, depending in part but not entirely on context, have not experienced late-term pregnancy.

However,

5) That does not necessarily entirely disqualify one from speaking about issues relating to pregnancy.
6) Glass
7) Bottle
8) Bottle
9) Glass.

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