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Giving your seat up on the tube.

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10:14 / 03.05.06

Just received this in email entitled “a heartwarming tale” and provoked a wee discussion in the office about tube etiquette.

sadly not ours, but a fine example is set for us all to follow.

"My friend Connie, who continued working in a Manhattan summer right up to the birth of her first childwas standing on the subway from Brooklyn and began to feel faint. She asked a respectable looking young man if she could possibly have his seat. He ignored her. She asked again. He rustled his Wall Street Journal, crossly.

Finally a boy, aged about 10, marched up the man and announced: "You heard the lady. She's pregnant. She needs to siddown. Now move!"

Even then he sat still, whereupon the boy began to kick his shins. "I said move, mother****er!" he remarked, and the man finally stumbled off down the carriage noisily threatening to sue. Connie says it was a very satisfying moment.

How did "Connie" knowing the man wasn't deaf or was injured in some way that required him to sit. Does the fact that she chose to work “right up to the birth” mean she’s entitled to harangue all and sundry for a seat?

AFAIC, you choose pregnancy and can't expect everyone to dance around you like handmaidens facilitating your life choice. Fair enough, I’ve given my seat up in the past, but sometimes I just don’t want to and evidently other people don’t too – is this why she was asking? And if she had to ask presumably it had happened before. If the little darling is so important why go on the tube at all.

I’m disinclined to stand up for pregnant women since in the words of Jimmy Carr, I’d prefer to see a pregnant woman standing than a fat woman in tears.

Do you always give up your seat? Always offer? Who to? Old people, pregnant people, disabled people?

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:18 / 03.05.06

How did "Connie" knowing the man wasn't deaf or was injured in some way that required him to sit.

If it was the latter, surely he could have just said "I'm sorry, I'm injured in a way that requires me to sit"?

I say, well done that child.

Once a person quotes Jimmy Carr they are effectively giving up their right to be taken seriously (or amusingly) on any issue involving the treatment of other human beings.

10:21 / 03.05.06

I don't see why pregnant women should get special treatment at the expense of others. It's not selfish. I would give up my seat to the elderly or infirm. Not to the voluntarily inconvenienced.

10:23 / 03.05.06

I'd probably only give up my seat for a celebrity. You know, like Dexter Fletcher.

10:25 / 03.05.06

Wow, Jub, that's kind of harsh! To each their own I suppose.

I took the bus (actually two buses) to and from work every day for a year and a half at my old job. People were really, really stubborn about their seats. Not only would no one ever give up their own seat, people would frequently sit on the aisle seat and refuse to slide over so that someone else could sit down too. I saw the aisles fill on busy bus lines in rush hour with a few hangers-on still pretending to be asleep or staring at the Metro, forcing two dozen passengers to cram into the standing room just so they wouldn't have to sit beside anyone.

I don't think it's anyone's civic duty to give up their seat - it's just a compassionate thing to do. What's "fair" isn't always the best we can do. Someone on another board I look at just posted this (in relation to something totally different but I think it applies here) -

It's the 'finite pie' concept in negotiation: the idea that there are only X slices of pie and will never be any more, and if you get an additional slice of pie, that is one less slice for me. The concept of creating value and increasing the size of the pie is considered radical, although intuitively it makes so much sense.

I agree the kid kicking the shins was a bit much - presumably there were other people next to him who could have given up their seats. In my best moments I would give up my seat for the elderly, pregnant, small children, disabled, the fatigued, the unhealthy if they needed it. (I say in my best moments because I admit that when I'm in a shit mood everyone can stand on their heads for all I care. But I'm not proud of that sentiment.) I wouldn't, however, just offer my seat out of hand, because I think that can be patronizing if it's unsolicited.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:26 / 03.05.06

I quite agree, Jub. Whe I see someone on crutches or using a stick on public transport, I have them answer a series of questions as to how they became incapacitated. If it turns out that they were injured as a result of their own negligence, or by participating in sports, I not only refuse to give up my seat but kick their sticks away and tell them to fuck off.

Ex

10:28 / 03.05.06

Not to the voluntarily inconvenienced.

So do you check with anyone exhibiting signs of illness or disability how they aquired them? Because if you exclude smokers, sports participants, those injured while pissed, those injured as a result of driving, those punched by others they might feasibly have avoided, those who didn't take enough excercise in their youth and eat low-fat meals who are thus facing a slightly less agile old age, those wearing impractical shoes, those who chose to do a job which involves a lot of standing up for long shifts, and those who put their back out having sex last night, it seems like you get to sit down all the way to Cockfosters.

Unless I'm particularly knackered, I don't sit down if there isn't an additional empty seat.

Ex

10:29 / 03.05.06

I've only been in London a year, though, and my sympathy may wear off.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:33 / 03.05.06

Yeah, I'd give up for seat for anyone who looked like they needed it more than I wanted/needed it, really. I mean, I sit down enough as it is during the day, y'know?

10:34 / 03.05.06

Firstly, I think the above story is arse - "he shuffled off threatening to sue" PAh!. "everone cheered" - pah!

It's a life choice. I didn't knock the woman up so why should I have to stand in the sweltering tube in payment for her decision? Like with hangovers, you know what you're getting into at the time. The difference with someone with a broken leg is (I assume) they didn't actually intend to break their leg. It was an unintended consequence. Plus, they are actually incapable of standing while a pregnant woman is just a bit uncomfortable. And suffering from the agonies of the self-righteous.

The one lacking in manners is the woman for queening around and demanding (twice) that someone move to accommodate her.

10:35 / 03.05.06

I have given up my seat to the elderly and to visibly very pregant women. I would, under no circumstances, speak to anyone on the tube, however. This has the added advantage of meaning I can do good by stealth, like a ninja Jesus.

btw, I am quite elderly myself now so you have to look like you're about to peg out before you qualify for my seat.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:37 / 03.05.06

Actually, Jub, quite a lot of people become pregnant without intending to, just by indulging in an activity they enjoy which carries a contingent risk of pregnancy. Much like skiing and broken legs.

10:37 / 03.05.06

I'd probably only give up my seat for a celebrity. You know, like Dexter Fletcher.

Does Dexter Fletcher give up his seat for celebrities?

I think I'd be lying if I claimed any sort of systematic process for making seat-surrendering decisions, or even a particularly consistent rule-of-thumb. As with individuals begging for money, my response is governed by all manner of factors, both internal and situational. I'm aware that my compassion/guilt button is horribly inconsistent...

I have a certain degree of sympathy for that particular Jimmy Carr gag, having made the fatal pregnancy/obesity error in the past (although not in this context). I still cringe slightly to think of it.

10:38 / 03.05.06

Er, quoting a comedian well known for his misanthropic humor? Way to make a point.

Ibis pretty much sums it up for me

I don't think it's anyone's civic duty to give up their seat - it's just a compassionate thing to do.

Bloody right. Whilst pregnancy may well be self-inflicted, in the later stages it is bloody uncomfortable - head in hands and tears uncomfortable - and possibly even downright dangerous, for a pregnant woman to stay on her feet for too long. Frankly, I don't think asking an able-bodied person to give up their seat for a few measly minutes is particularly out of order, and I, personally, would probably offer my seat to anyone that looked like they needed it more than me.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:39 / 03.05.06

"queening"

Have you recently suffered from a knock on the head, Jub? I seem to remember you being a fairly pleasant sort thus far. At what point did you decide that all pregnant people get pregnant on purpose and thus should just STOP BLOODY MOANING, where "moaning" = "wanting to sit down"? If a pregnant woman collapsed on a tube carriage, would you still tut and think "well it serves her right"?

The last time I encountered this line of argument, I was a sulky 14 year-old, and it was coming from my own lips, directed at my poor mother.

10:39 / 03.05.06

Wow. What a charming person you sound, Jub. Heaven help any woman you do ever knock up, intentionally or otherwise.

Have some compassion - if someone needs a seat, for whatever reason (and pregnancy makes standing pretty tough) then give them it, for god's sake.

10:43 / 03.05.06

Jub, are you sure those pesky disabled people aren't just lazy?

10:43 / 03.05.06

We get this problem rarely here, there´s lots of free seats (except during rush hour maybe). It´s more "Hm, do I set next to that guy or across this fellow?"

But I remember, when I was a child, the public transport regulations said, children don´t have a right to sit and have to stand up, when they´re asked by elderly people.

And we still got seats marked with a cross, where you have to get up when asked by disabled people (many immediately wave their "I´m disabled" paper in your face, so there´s no room for doubt).

With a visibly pregnant woman, I´d get up, cause my conscience flares up at the even slightest opportunity and I just know it would haunt me for days, that I kept on sitting.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:44 / 03.05.06

Indeed - "My friend Connie, who continued working in a Manhattan summer right up to the birth of her first childwas standing on the subway from Brooklyn and began to feel faint."

If someone needs to sit down because they feel faint, then I personally don't think it matters a huge amount whether that's because they're pregnant, have just run the marathon, or need an urgent fix of TEH SMACK - all choices they made THEMSELVES.

10:45 / 03.05.06

Whilst pregnancy may well be self-inflicted

Oh my god, self-inflicted?? Shit, I think I need to stop by a drugstore....

(Sorry, couldn't pass it up.)

10:47 / 03.05.06

Fucking junkies, leave 'em to rot in their self-inflicted misery, I say.

10:48 / 03.05.06

There's a difference between being "in need" and just expecting the world to revolve around you. I consider myself thoroughly decent. I just think the pregnancy seat giving up thing is a throwback to gentlemen standing up when a lady enters the room etc. i.e. ridiculous.

10:48 / 03.05.06

Firstly, I think the above story is arse

Welllll, it's probably coloured slightly for added heroes 'n' villainsness, eg. the fact that the guy was reading (or "crossly" rustling) a Wall Street Journal is probably intended to evoke "tchyeah, selfish yuppie breadhead" feelings, etc., etc. And the 10-year-old sounds distinctly bratty.

It's one of these urban parables, though, innit? Human interest spun slightly to warm one's cardiac cockles. It's very probably a little bit arse - but that doesn't necessarily detract from its point.

Could we not describe the genesis of pregnancy in terms of 'knocking up', please?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:49 / 03.05.06

Yeah--I mean, surely if one was going through a self-inflicted pregnancy, the book deal would pay for the odd taxi home?

10:52 / 03.05.06

Well, I have to assume you've never known anyone pregnant, Jub. While I can stand just as well as you, and wouldn't expect - or want - you to offer me a seat, being heavily pregnant is very tough on your body.

And sorry if knocking up is too insensitive a term for you, Ganesh! I was only copying Jub, really.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:53 / 03.05.06

Yeah, I'd give up for seat for anyone who looked like they needed it more than I wanted/needed it, really. I mean, I sit down enough as it is during the day, y'know

I do this when I actually notice. Trouble is I tend to try my hardest to ignore whatever's going on around me when I'm on the bus, by reading and listening to music, so it's usually a case of someone asking.

10:56 / 03.05.06

Sorry on the "knocking up" and the self inflicted. Feeling mildly reckless today. However... why should we make a distinction between fat people and pregnant people then? The only reason we are readily willing to give up seats (well some of you anyway) to pregnant women is becuase its 'tough for them' to stand - backache etc.

Fat people get backache etc.

I don't think the baby suffers any benefit or disbenefit from the women sitting or standing? Does it? And if that's true for a 20m train ride, surely the women should be at home, sitting about and not doing stuff which requires her to scurry about town?

Fat people definitely don't get my seat.

10:57 / 03.05.06

There's a difference between being "in need" and just expecting the world to revolve around you.

So, in the absence of telepathic assessment of world-revolvingness expectations, how do you make that judgement call? Is every pregnant woman considered to be other than genuinely needful, or do you possess some more individual means of accurately gauging need?

(Yeah, Ariadne, I know. The phrase just tickled my tinfoil receptors.)

10:57 / 03.05.06

There's a difference between being "in need" and just expecting the world to revolve around you.

Rather overstating the case here, eh. I don't think being heavily pregnant and asking someone to give up their seat is expecting anything of the sort.

I consider myself thoroughly decent.

That's nice

I just think the pregnancy seat giving up thing is a throwback to gentlemen standing up when a lady enters the room etc. i.e. ridiculous.

And this forces me to ask, do you actually know anyone, I mean intimately, who's been pregnant? Because it looks to me like you have no idea what it actually entails. For the record, I wouldn't give up my seat because it's the gentlemanly thing to do, but because it's quite likely I'm looking at someone who is suffering.

10:59 / 03.05.06

And if that's true for a 20m train ride, surely the women should be at home, sitting about and not doing stuff which requires her to scurry about town?

Because pregnant women never have to work...

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:00 / 03.05.06

WOMEN!

Do not expect any HELP on a THURSDAY, or any other day, when you have had the NERVE to venture OUTSIDE whilst WITH CHILD!

11:00 / 03.05.06

...or go shopping, or return their library books, or go to antenatal clinics, or...

11:01 / 03.05.06

And if that's true for a 20m train ride, surely the women should be at home, sitting about and not doing stuff which requires her to scurry about town?

Well, you granted the seated man some extenuating circumstances (he might be injured, ill, deaf), what about her? I've never been pregnant so probably someone who has can better state this, but as I understand it pregnancy's a little unpredictable as far as how you feel from hour to hour or day to day. Maybe she couldn't get maternity leave and has to work (she does live in the US in the story). Maybe she has no car and is on the way to a prenatal doctor's appointment. Maybe she is just going to Bloomingdale's for pantyhose but as she felt great this morning she thought an outing wouldn't be a problem.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:01 / 03.05.06

not doing stuff which requires her to scurry about town

What, not even going to the doctor?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:03 / 03.05.06

Dagnabbit, everyone beat me to it. Think of it as me giving up my posting seat for them.

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