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Stop the Madness!

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:39 / 22.04.06
drinking a shake made of green bananas and sassafras rather than hard thought?

You know what would be really good. If you invented a trap for Hal Jordan that involved a ton of green bananas, harmless to him until they ripen.
 
 
Benny the Ball
17:09 / 22.04.06
Maxwell Lord the fourth (was it?) updated his mind control - granted, it was crap to begin with, but at the end there, he had Superman as his bitch, and had to have his neck broken to cut it out.

I'm more of a DC fan, but have recently bought essential x-men volumes 1-7. Just curious, as I'm sure it sounded cool once, but if being the best at what you do, and what you do being not nice only entails getting regular beatings and being forgetful, well that pretty much describes that period of time when I was at university, drinking too much and starting fights with strangers just to get beaten up because I hated myself so much.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
17:52 / 24.04.06
Ok X-Men, lets hit them HARD AND FAST!

Actually Cyclops, I figured we would just slap them a little, at a nice slow pace, keep the heartrate in the target range.

Captain Britain sitting in his armchair drinking tea in front of the TV in his spandex and helmet all through Excalibur just annoyed the crap out of me.
 
 
Mario
18:18 / 24.04.06
Here's a cliche I'd like to see die.

A brand new character who turns out to have been involved in critical events from the comic universe's past.
 
 
Slim
18:19 / 24.04.06
Criminals being afraid of guys like Batman. Mob hitmen are not going to be scared of a guy wearing a bat suit. They're just not.
 
 
The Falcon
18:23 / 24.04.06
They are if he can kick the shit out of, say, Bane.
 
 
Slim
18:30 / 24.04.06
I wanted to post that I don't like how Batman is the most feared man in the DC universe and can defeat anyone given enough time but I figured that wasn't cliched enough.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
18:31 / 24.04.06
Mob hitmen are not going to be scared of a guy wearing a bat suit. They're just not.
Our mob guys aren't, but in a universe where masked vigilantes have been kicking ass, and been a regular part of the world since about world war 2, I expect mobsters would be scared of the Batman, and even someone like Impulse/Kid Flash.
 
 
Spaniel
18:33 / 24.04.06
Slim, I need to ask, what the fuck are you talking about? A) That's not a cliche, it's essential to the success of the character, and B) What Duncan said, and, well, he's a fucking member of the JLA.

I really hate this thread. Would the other mods forgive me if I don't monitor it?
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:43 / 24.04.06
Mob hitmen are not going to be scared of a guy wearing a bat suit. They're just not.

Yeah, but they would be scared of a bat-like monster who jumps out of shadows, snatches them away, and brakes their bones. It's like a boogey-man for the criminal (remember: "criminals are a coward, supersticious bunch")

And after a few years, when everybody realises it's just a guy in costume, it's too late: Batsy already got the street cred to back it up.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:03 / 24.04.06
Gosh I'm sorry you hate this thread, Boboss. I don't see it as stupidly knocking or trying to undermine comic conventions; it's more of an affectionate sharing of traits that people enjoy recognising and light-heartedly questioning. If you love to hate something, that still involves love.

With regard to Batman ~ yes, firstly he has a reputation now, secondly this is a world where mobsters would know that vigilantes can and have kicked their butts many times before, and could be metahuman or alien ~ and thirdly, it's not really a "bat suit".

"Bat suit" implies some comedy fancy-dress. To be afraid of Batman's outfit is only as ridiculous as being afraid of an SAS commando or a police officer in full riot gear. He's covered in armour and packed out with weapons. He's wearing a helmet. Yes, it has little ears on it. Laugh it up.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
19:07 / 24.04.06
And he's seen on tv news punching motherfuckers through brick walls.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
19:12 / 24.04.06
QUIPS: why do superheroes hit someone and then quip? Who are they quipping to if their enemy is on the ground trying to pick up their shattered teeth? Themselves? Because the guy whose jaw you just broke isn't going to have a comeback ready and his ears are ringing so hard he probably can't hear you anyways.
I believe comic book quips predate sports shit talking. Getting into your opponets head and humiliating them, and/or distracting them.
 
 
Slim
19:16 / 24.04.06
Slim, I need to ask, what the fuck are you talking about? A) That's not a cliche, it's essential to the success of the character, and B) What Duncan said, and, well, he's a fucking member of the JLA.

Fuck it all. I easily could have said Daredevil but he doesn't fucking annoy me like Batman does. A lameass costume that strikes fear into the hearts of criminals because they are weak and cowardly and not, say, sociopathic is stupid. It may be toeing the line of clichedom but I included it because it makes me want to say STOP THE MADNESS!
 
 
Spaniel
19:34 / 24.04.06
Still failing to make any kind of case there, Slim.

MW, you'll have to trust me on this, but rest assurred that I'm not particularly precious about superhero comics.
This thread just pisses me off because it's full of misidentified cliches, people using the term in it's weakest sense, and posters failing to understand/acknowledge that a chunk of this stuff is what makes these books tick in the first place. There's also the fact that cliches can be reworked and put to good use.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:00 / 24.04.06
A lameass costume

Not convinced by this.

Do you include my posts in your unhappy comments, Boboss? I was meaning them as more of a tribute to fab cheesiness, in many cases.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:11 / 24.04.06
I agree with Boboss on a level. In my mind the standard storytelling practice of a comic books forces you into cliche situations. I read a description of Superman once which said that every individual Supes story exists on the idea that superman forgets his powers constantly, thats why he gets attacked by a robot and doesn't melt it with heat vision.

I think all the "super" hero books need to act on this. I always wanted Firestorms powers so whenever anything was trying to fight with me I could tweak its molecular structure to turn it into pudding. mmm pudding.

So yes, a lot of the cliche being listed is intrinsic to the storytelling process. Sure 90% of people reading an X-men comic know WOLVERINE has ADAMANTIUM LACED BONES AND CLAWS and a HEALING FACTOR and that adamantium is UNBREAKABLE AND ABLE TO CUT THROUGH EVERYTHING, but I know that the first time I picked up an X-Men comic I didn't know that. Yeah, it gets annoying, and in character theres no reason for Wolverine to explain this to the other X-men, but thats just how it is.
 
 
Spaniel
20:19 / 24.04.06
Do you include my posts in your unhappy comments, Boboss?

Some of what you've posted, but I appreciate that you've done it with a degree of self-awareness and forethought that's missing from many of the other posts hereabouts.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
21:17 / 24.04.06
Vis a vis, Batman. Less the costume and more the wall to wall non-stop assbeatings he dishes out regularly and in full view of the Gotham City criminal element.

No: "GAH! A BAT!"
Yes: "GAH! The guy who broke Vito's arm in twelve places! That looked painful when it happened a week ago right in front of me."
 
 
The Falcon
21:30 / 24.04.06
I actually want to see a comic with ALL Ms. W's identified 'madnesses'. I think it would be JAWESOME.
 
 
This Sunday
21:41 / 24.04.06
As far as Bats, there's a JLA thing from when Morrison was writing the series that went something like 'urban legend, hell, three quarters of the guys in this prison have had bones broken by that urban legend,' that pretty much makes it work, for me.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
10:38 / 25.04.06
THIN-SKINNED COMIC BOOK FANS - here's a cliche I thought was dead. The second someone pokes some fun at situations, scenes, cliches and contrivances that we've all seen a million times someone else gets up in arms with huffy, high falutin' explanations on why they're wrong. "Being lazy and reusing the same plot devices over and over is what makes the medium work!" Isn't this a character on the Simpsons?
 
 
Spaniel
10:49 / 25.04.06
If that last post was addressed to me then I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that I am not a precious comicbook fan (as mentioned above). I've adequately explained my reasons for disliking this thread, if you take issue with them argue your case as MW has done.

For the record, however, most of the so called "cliches" you've identified hardly fit the description. Instead you seem to have put together a rather arbitrary list of pet peeves.
 
 
Spaniel
10:52 / 25.04.06
Also, you thought there were no thin-skinned comicbook fans left? You have been over to Newsarama, haven't you?
 
 
Grady Hendrix
12:00 / 25.04.06
Oh lighten up. I don't have to "make a case" in order to have fun. We all read comics. We've all probably read too many of them and lost all perspective along the way. I know I have. But if we can't poke fun at something we love then what's the point?

If your problem with this thread actually, honestly has to do with the fact that you feel I'm violating your definition of "cliche", well the dictionary defines a cliche as an expression or situation that has become trite. And it defines trite as something that has lost meaning, originality and freshness through constant use. Sounds like what we're talking about here.

Nothing personal, but this thread was for fun. If that's unclear then I must have used language that sounded serious at some point, something I've tried to avoid throughout, and for that I apologize. But if you just can't take it in the spirit it's intended then why comment?
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
12:27 / 25.04.06
You know, I'm not really seeing any thin skinned comic book fans, just people who find your concept of "fun" incredibly tedious.

Also: comic book fans first to call other comic book fans thin-skinned shocka!
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
12:31 / 25.04.06
I bet you really liked when Marvel did all those silent comics. Did you think it was a competition? That you had to write the words in yourself? Why else would they have these stories that make no sense!? Indeed, how can one read comics with no words. Mind = boggled. BOGGLED.
 
 
The Falcon
12:37 / 25.04.06
Guys, guys - let's just back down before someone drops the 'v'-bomb.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
12:43 / 25.04.06
You didn't have to write the words in yourself? But then what was the point?!?

Seriously. You are just kidding, right? Because I spent a long time on that and if it all turned out to be a waste I would have to tell all the kids in the terminal ward that the reason Marvel hasn't responded to their submissions to the big "Writing Contest" wasn't that it was still organizing the World's Biggest Party for the World's Tiniest Writers but because I messed up and had them expend all their precious energy that they should have been devoting to getting well on my mistake.

Please tell me it's not true. These kids have so little hope as it is that I think this would push some of them over the edge.
 
 
Pants Payroll
12:44 / 25.04.06
Verisimilitude?
 
 
Spaniel
12:49 / 25.04.06
I don't think you're violating my definition of cliche, I think you are variously violating the definition of cliche (see your reference to silent panels for a particularly good exmaple of said behaviour), (I repeat) using the term in its weakest sense, and failing to recognise the worth of certain recurrent conventions/narrative techniques.

The thing is, I think it is possible to offer good examples of this stuff, but I just don't think you're doing it.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
13:13 / 25.04.06
The silent panel is a GREAT example. Allow me to be pedantic:

Comic books depend on rhythm and panels create the rhythm. Small, small, small, small...BIG SPLASH PAGE. Using identical silent panels as beats before delivering a punchline. Using a silent panel to show someone thinking, to slow down the pace of a story to build suspense or believability.

But, like a rimshot, silent panels can be gruesomely abused. Look at Iron Man #7. On page 16 there's a silent panel between Captain America and Iron Man designed to show that Iron Man is avoiding Captain America's rhetorical question. Meh, a little lazy but it's a convention and so it passes unnoticed. Then, on the next page, Luke Cage criticizes Iron Man and Captain America says, "He can hear every word you say." Next panel: silent close-up of Luke Cage looking chagrined. Why don't they just put in the horn: wah-waaaaaah. Blow a raspberry on you, Luke Cage! This is sitcom pacing - the pause for the laugh track where the audience goes "You got dogged!"

Page 18, another sitcom moment. Nick Fury and Dooligan MacDooligan are talking about Tony Stark and Tony Stark HEARS them! Then we get a silent panel of Tony at the bottom of the page while they turn to look at him...busted! This is the moment when the laugh track goes, "OOOooooooo!" Why didn't they just put in an enormous "BURN!" caption?

On the very next page there's a silent panel of Dundee McFundee walking past Tony Stark and Tony giving him the eye. It is the silliest panel I've seen in a long time. Just stare at it. Let it lift from its context. Are these guys checking each other out? Flirting? Is Tony Stark noticing the dandruff on Dooligan's collar? Why? Why is this here? Because the writer doesn't know how to move his characters around. It's an easy way to break up the scene, shuffling one actor offstage while the other comes on and dialogue switches from one conversation to another, but this would never pass muster in any other medium. A wordless entrance and exit framed this lazily and undramatically would result in a deadly pause in a play and in a movie it would be the time when you went to the bathroom. It's just a silent panel to cover moving the pawns around because the writer isn't good enough to do it any other way. Sometimes it's easy to write the superheroics and hard to write people walking in and out of rooms.

On page 20 we've got two inscrutable silent panels. I couldn't even tell you what they're for. In the first one Tony gives a speech and then...silent panel. Is Nick Fury at a loss for words? Did Tony's big speech sound dumb and the room is echoing with it afterwards? Or did the author just need a quick way to change from one track to another and thought it was too abrupt to jump from one dialogue panel to the next?

And in the second silent panel, one panel later, Nick Fury says, "Tell me about Argonaut." Silent panel close up on Tony. Then Tony says, "What...?" Holy overstatement, Batman! If he's just going to say, "What...?" then why have the silent panel? Did he fall asleep for a minute? Space out? See an ad for the SUPERMAN movie on a tv on the other side of the room and get distracted?

The silent inscrutable panel is a useful tool, but it's used by some writers as a lazy technique to make transitions or to cover stage business when there are a million other ways they could do the same thing if they just thought about it for a little bit. But like the producer of a bad sitcom their first instinct is to reach for the laugh track knob and turn up the volume to cover their laziness.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:45 / 25.04.06
You know, I'm not really seeing any thin skinned comic book fans, just people who find your concept of "fun" incredibly tedious.

Suedey, I don't know if I agree with Grady about the "silent panel". I don't know if I see enough of them to make it an overused convention. I don't know if I know what Grady means about the silent panel. Some of the Iron Man examples cited above sound, from the description, like pretty good comics.

But Grady is making me laugh with the way s/he talks about the silent panel.

I appreciate it if you don't find the stuff on here funny. I know people have different tastes for that kind of thing. There are "joke" threads on Conversation that read to me like commentaries on fun's funeral. But I don't try to police them.

I'm sorry this thread isn't working out for everyone, but I'm not sure why it's causing such irritation.
 
 
Spaniel
18:07 / 25.04.06
Yeah, actually whilst I still don't agree with Grady's assessment, I appeciate that ze's having a good time, and, frankly, I don't need to be here.
 
 
matthew.
20:05 / 25.04.06
I think Boboss has a slight point here. The cliches we have mostly identified are neither tired nor trite, they are the essential building blocks of the medium. In order to create a story about superheroes, you first have to recognize the past history of superheroes, which includes punching motherfuckers right through brick walls and quipping. Superheroes are archetypes, whether they come from a collective unconscious or nature, it don't matter. But they are archetypes that are generally built with the same tools, and these are the tools that we have identified as cliches.

On the other hand, we're just having fun commenting on the pieces we observe and giggle at. I see no harm in here. This thread isn't designed to stop people from reading comics. In fact, it makes me want to read more comics.
 
  

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