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Women in Gaming

 
  

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20:10 / 16.04.06
A Feminist Gaming Manifesto: Part 1

A Feminist Gaming Manifesto: Part 2

Now, ideally, what ought to happen is for women to be able to say, “hey, that makes me feel unwelcome,” and get a response that boils down to, “oh, sorry, we’ll stop that, because we want you to feel welcome.”...

The real irony of all this stuff above is that it’s hard work. You’re constantly resisting and denying, and you end up distancing yourself from people who challenge the status quo. All you have to do is say, hey, “I hear what you’re saying, and I’m sorry I made you feel excluded, and I will try not to do it again.”

So wait, you’re wondering, maybe, why don’t these crazy men-folk just do that? I think the answer is actually pretty straightforward. People who themselves feel marginalized can’t bear the thought that they could be in a position of power wherein they could hurt someone in the same way that they feel hurt. Who out there hasn’t felt terribly marginalized? What happens, then, is there’s this conflation of “you’re doing something that makes me feel excluded or hurt” with “you’re a bad, bad man like those people with the bitch shirts.” You can’t handle that thought, so you try desperately to prove that it’s not the case. Guilt, or fear that you might be guilty, never did anybody any good.


This looks like an example of good allyship from a man in the gaming community. Now observe the comments closely for proof of his points.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
21:05 / 16.04.06
He does seem to be a touch over defensive, don't you think? He's trying to define his battleground (is that masculine language? is it oppressive?) well in advance: "I say this, and I *know* you will say that, so here's why you're wrong, ha ha!" As one of his commentators notes, this is a fairly basic (base? ha!) rhetorical trick. And listing perceived gender biases which have nothing to do with tabletop roleplay whatsoever is gratuitous.

I would suggest that the fundamental axiom he seems to be suggesting: "that there are fewer women playing TTRPGs because the atmosphere is biased, perhaps unconsciously, against women" needs to be tested before going any further. He asserts that this is true; I think we need to see more evidence of this than one person's conclusion. As a mostly disinterested observer of tabletop roleplay, my take would be that the male/female ratio is a function purely of the particular social group - in the small scale sense - and that as social groups are rarely based entirely around tabletop roleplay, it does not make sense to identify the roleplay games and atmosphere as a prime cause of gender bias.
 
 
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22:19 / 17.04.06
I say this, and I *know* you will say that, so here's why you're wrong, ha ha!

Do you mean that dealing with potential objections in a persuasive article is an underhanded rhetorical tactic? Because that sounds to me like a basic principle of good writing, which means that you would be advancing the "cheating by using words" argument.

It's also worth noting that the arguments made by the author have been advanced before, by female gamers, and the responses that they have gotten have been pretty typical of those he considers and refutes in his article. It's also typical of conversations I've had many times with people unfamiliar with basic anti-sexism or basic anti-oppression practices in general. I would say not that he is defensive, but that those who defend the gaming industry against fair criticisms of male bias using the defensive tactics he lists are defensive. Which includes both the comment by "Ben" and your post, in my opinion.

As a mostly disinterested observer of tabletop roleplay, my take would be that the male/female ratio is a function purely of the particular social group - in the small scale sense - and that as social groups are rarely based entirely around tabletop roleplay, it does not make sense to identify the roleplay games and atmosphere as a prime cause of gender bias.

Now this is more interesting. I have been a member of many fairly balanced male/female gaming groups, and I observe that in these cases, the social groups were composed of a fairly balanced ratio of female and male friends. But the correlation does not imply causation— couldn't it be that guys who are sensitive to gendered power dynamics are more likely to be friends with women with whom to game? I also don't think this absolves all-male or predominantly-male groups from responsibility. If you have a party where everyone is white except for one Vietnamese guy, and he mentions that it feels sort of uncomfortable for him that there are no other people there who aren't white, saying "Well, all my friends just happen to be white— oh, except you, Hiep. I can't help it if my whole social circle is white." Hiep is still not going to feel any better, or any safer, or any more welcome in your social gatherings. And with a predominance of white people in the group, there's going to be a lot of white privilege being displayed and taken for granted, which will likely make him even more uncomfortable, especially if when he tries to challenge assumptions of privilege he's called "over defensive" and such, and before long he's not coming to your parties. Which, surprise surprise, are now all white. And so the cycle continues.
 
 
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22:23 / 17.04.06
Also, I don't think anyone is saying that roleplaying games cause gender bias in the larger society. I think people are saying, with reason, that gender bias in games and gamer culture causes fewer women to be involved, which perpetuates gender bias in gamer culture.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
23:30 / 17.04.06
Do you mean that dealing with potential objections in a persuasive article is an underhanded rhetorical tactic? Because that sounds to me like a basic principle of good writing, which means that you would be advancing the "cheating by using words" argument.

Not at all. But dealing with, as he appears to, all potential male objectors by saying "you are male (ha!), therefore you are in receipt of X,Y and Z class privileges, therefore you are automatically barred from arguing against my points because you are inherently prejudiced" seems to be to me, well, a bit strong. Painting with a brush so broad as to make the picture meaningless, so to speak.

I would say not that he is defensive, but that those who defend the gaming industry against fair criticisms of male bias using the defensive tactics he lists are defensive. Which includes both the comment by "Ben" and your post, in my opinion.

Good heavens, I wasn't defending the gaming industry. I described myself accurately as mostly disinterested; TTRPGs hold little appeal for me. I have very little agenda on the subject, and I don't question that there is bias in the gaming industry, of course there will be a thousand biases and prejudices; roleplaying is probably one of the most complicated human activities, after all, and there is full scope for every -ism in the book.

What irks me, I suppose, is that he is saying "all roleplay is male-biased, and if you disagree you are in denial" when the majority of tabletop roleplay groups I know appear to exhibit no such bias. I've seen all male groups, too; but it doesn't seem right to me that he should lump all groups together - even those which, if they are influenced by prejudices, are invisibly influenced, that is, there is no discernable effect - and say "you're all part of the problem! - even you, you people who aren't doing anything wrong, well, you are really!"

I have been a member of many fairly balanced male/female gaming groups, and I observe that in these cases, the social groups were composed of a fairly balanced ratio of female and male friends. But the correlation does not imply causation— couldn't it be that guys who are sensitive to gendered power dynamics are more likely to be friends with women with whom to game?

It's possible, I agree. Although I'd suggest that a group of people to whom gender is truly not an issue would be at more of an advantage than those conversant in gendered power dynamics...

And with a predominance of white people in the group, there's going to be a lot of white privilege being displayed and taken for granted, which will likely make him even more uncomfortable, especially if when he tries to challenge assumptions of privilege he's called "over defensive" and such, and before long he's not coming to your parties.

At the risk of derailing the topic, I'm curious as to how that white privilege - or indeed male privilege -.would be expected to manifest during a tabletop roleplay session. Although to refer back to the original article, maybe it would go something like this:
GM (anglo-saxon male): "Ok, so you're all standing by the statue in Lincoln Square*."
Objector: "Arg! Lincoln is both white and male! Your game includes references to a history which is dominated by white male figures! Your game is biased! I'm out of here!"
Seriously, he's claiming a lot of things are inherently sexist, but which are not necessarily so. For instance, a list of American Presidents is not sexist or racist in itself, even though it is composed entirely of white males. The list is neutral; it is an observation, a window, nothing more. An observer might conclude that the social factors which have led to the events recorded in the list are racist and sexist, but would be wrong to consider the list itself at fault.
I don't dispute that a roleplaying game could be more than just a neutral window on the world - it could contain elements of -ism by design, it could be a tinted window - but that is not necessarily the case.

*Manchester, of course.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:57 / 18.04.06
roleplaying is probably one of the most complicated human activities, after all

Just above Egyptology and just below nuclear physics, I believe, in the official rankings.

My experience here is anecdotal, but based on stories of women going into gaming shops and being stared at and followed around. Possibly Games Workshop has changed since.

Meanwhile, Kay, I notice that you are using a series of rhetorical devices yourself. Your imaginary situation is an attempt at a reductio ad absurdum, and the exaggerated, exclamation-mark heavy portrayal of how your hypothetical gamer would speak seeks to parody the position as (you guessed it) hysterical. You also use that as a springboard to start talking about the list of American presidents as a simple fact that is not in itselff racist or sexist, which is very interesting but which I did not see mentioned in Matt Jones' article, any more in fact than I saw him argue that one should depart the table in a flurry of exclamation marks if anyone mentions the name of a man - the logical analogue to your imaginary situation. As such, I have a feeling that the implicit error in:

Although I'd suggest that a group of people to whom gender is truly not an issue would be at more of an advantage than those conversant in gendered power dynamics...

should be clear at this point. First up, you change id entity's "sensitive to" to "conversant in" - that is, suggesting that he was describing an academic discipline of some kind rather than an awareness of the processes of daily life. Id entity's position seems uncontroversial - people who know how not to alienate women are more likely to have female friends, and if they game therefore they are more likely to invite their female friends to experience gaming. I'm not sure how gender truly not being an issue factors into that, as you are assuming that id entity was describing some sort of (you guessed it) politically correct group with a big box of exclamation marks ready to fire. I think this might have coloured your perception of what was being said.


My big starting question here would be whether we have decent statistics on the male/female split in tabletop gaming. If his measurement of six to one is about right, then it's going to be very unlikely that that level of gender imbalance will not have cultural consequences. However, that was one anecdotal count. Id entity's is another. Do we have anything firmer on participation levels?
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
09:42 / 18.04.06
Just above Egyptology and just below nuclear physics, I believe, in the official rankings.

I was being serious. Roleplay could be described as the interaction between several objects of extreme complexity - the minds of the participants, each composed of however many gazillion linked neurons. Pictograms and h bar are staggeringly trivial by comparison.

Your imaginary situation is an attempt at a reductio ad absurdum, and the exaggerated, exclamation-mark heavy portrayal of how your hypothetical gamer would speak seeks to parody the position as (you guessed it) hysterical. You also use that as a springboard to start talking about the list of American presidents as a simple fact that is not in itselff racist or sexist, which is very interesting but which I did not see mentioned in Matt Jones' article

Ok, I was referring to (in the second part) "3. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that by and large people of my gender made it what it is.

4. If I visit national monuments, I can assume that they’ll be dedicated to people of my gender."

I concede he was describing them as elements where he perceives gender privilege operates in life, as opposed to specifically stating that they are problems with roleplay. If he can use them to, uh, illustrate his point in his article, I think it's fair for me to comment on that - and I do consider this sort of pronouncement to be hysterical (ha!) overreaction, to be seeing enemies where none exist.

Id entity's position seems uncontroversial - people who know how not to alienate women are more likely to have female friends, and if they game therefore they are more likely to invite their female friends to experience gaming. I'm not sure how gender truly not being an issue factors into that, as you are assuming that id entity was describing some sort of (you guessed it) politically correct group with a big box of exclamation marks ready to fire. I think this might have coloured your perception of what was being said.

Ok, that's fair enough. I must have been seized by a combative spirit at that point.

My big starting question here would be whether we have decent statistics on the male/female split in tabletop gaming. (snip) Id entity's is another. Do we have anything firmer on participation levels?

That's what I'd like to know, too. I do agree that there are elements of gender bias in roleplay - I just disagree that that means every roleplayer shares in some collective guilt and responsibility for it, or that roleplaying materiel and panoply necessarily is a significant cause of bias, which I couldn't help but feel the article implied.

In short, I suppose, I read the article as:
"All roleplay and all roleplayers are the problem!"
Which didn't, for me, match up with my personal experience, which is of seeing some 'problem' all-male roleplay groups and some (more) roleplay groups where gender was no kind of issue whatever. But, as you say, we would need more data, really; I could accept the (perhaps flattering) idea that the groups I know could be a misrepresentative sample on grounds of being composed of 'nice' people...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:07 / 18.04.06
Yes, or that you don't notice gender inequality or action prejudicial against women in your roleplaying groups (or, if we continue to follow the idea that you are a disinterested party, the roleplaying groups you observe), because that behaviour is totally normalised, which was rather the point of the article, I think.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
13:21 / 18.04.06
Yes, or that you don't notice gender inequality or action prejudicial against women in your roleplaying groups (or, if we continue to follow the idea that you are a disinterested party, the roleplaying groups you observe), because that behaviour is totally normalised, which was rather the point of the article, I think.

I *am* a disinterested party, honest, guv. I haven't taken part in a tabletop game for years, but I know an awful lot of people who play.

I'm more than slightly worried as, having just asked a friend whether she thought there was evidence of gender bias in one of her groups, her response was "well, there was this one incident" rather than "of course not".

But, um, we could really do with some more general observations / raw data here, I think.
 
 
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16:51 / 18.04.06
I can oblige your request for an example.

At the risk of derailing the topic, I'm curious as to how that white privilege - or indeed male privilege -.would be expected to manifest during a tabletop roleplay session.

Here are my experiences with a ShadowRun game which was not gender balanced, and run by a friend of mine who had few female friends (which I mention only because it came up earlier). In this game, the GM ran his games much like a cinematographer, which contributed to some awesome dramatic moments, but also a certain inflexibility on his part when we foiled his plans. I had observed that his plots ALWAYS hinged on a very attractive woman seducing and betraying at least one of the characters, and I (unfairly) designed my character with this in mind. Predictably, he had an attractive female character attempt to seduce my character to try to learn the group's plans. A scene much like this one followed:
GM (speaking in his sultry female voice): "Well, now that you've spilled wine all over my dress, you'll have to take me to dinner to make up for it."
Me: (briskly): "Sorry, not interested. Send me the cleaning bill."
GM (gleefully): "Roll to resist her seduction attempt."
Me: "Should it be an autofail on her part, or do I just get something like ten free successes for being gay?"
GM: "... Your character isn't gay!"
Me: "Are you mandating that as GM? I heavily hinted at it in my backstory, and I've been playing him for the last four weeks as having a crush on Sam's character which he knows isn't going to go anywhere."
GM: "You have to tell me if your character is going to be gay at character creation! And anyway you weren't playing him as a gay character, you were playing him as a straight guy. There was nothing gay about him."
Me: "Why? Do other people have to tell you if their characters are going to be straight? Are you saying that to play a gay character I have to play a mincing effeminate hairdresser or else I'm doing it wrong?"
GM: "Well I guess we have to redline the scene. Thanks for nothing."
Straight privilege teaches people that heterosexuality is the default, and that gay men are immediately identifiable by their adherence to gay male stereotypes. Male privilege teaches people that the purpose of women in games is to be a sex interest who either has cosmic powers and inevitably betrays the male characters, or who has no power at all and is a helpless victim. They are never the characters' steady employer or the regular street-doc, or the savvy street-sam who supplies the characters with information; their femaleness is the defining feature of their characters. This is why this guy couldn't keep female players in his games, and he had a hard time with queer ones, too. Does that help you any?

But dealing with, as he appears to, all potential male objectors by saying "you are male (ha!), therefore you are in receipt of X,Y and Z class privileges, therefore you are automatically barred from arguing against my points because you are inherently prejudiced" seems to be to me, well, a bit strong.

I don't agree that's what he's doing here. I agree with the point that all people are beneficiaries of certain privileges, and all people raised male or living as male are beneficiaries of male privilege. I do not agree that this means we are barred from arguing against his points, and I do not see where he does that. Some examples of grounds on which one might argue against not only his points but anyone who points out sexist behavior are mentioned and refuted, briefly, but this is not the same as saying "You cannot argue with me!" Unlike, for example, the way privilege often argues "Anyone who disagrees with me is being oversensitive." The author instead says "You may disagree with me, but if you dismiss my argument on the grounds that women are just being oversensitive, you're using an argument informed by male privilege and sexist assumptions."

If you want to attack his arguments, you might do so by saying, for example, that trying to court women into gaming is inherently predicated on sexist assumptions. I think that would lead to an interesting discussion.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
18:37 / 18.04.06
They are never the characters' steady employer or the regular street-doc, or the savvy street-sam who supplies the characters with information; their femaleness is the defining feature of their characters. This is why this guy couldn't keep female players in his games, and he had a hard time with queer ones, too. Does that help you any?

It's a blunderbuss example of blatant idiocy and prejudice, yes. I'd imagine any GM who could only portray female characters as one of two stereotypes would have a hard time holding onto good roleplayers. Well... ok, I'd imagine that if I was slightly more enthusiastic about tabletop roleplay.

I have not disagreed that there are examples of prejudice in tabletop roleplay. I continue to disagree that prejudice is necessarily all pervasive in a significant way. If one GM is an idiot it is not the responsibility of other roleplayers to rectify that; it is not their fault. If they can do something (amicably!) about it, all for the good - but I don't think the approach "I have decided we are a community, and that therefore I am my brother(ha!)'s keeper, and somehow to blame for, uh, his sexism" is sensible. Particularly if it's one person unilaterally deciding to accept blame on behalf of everyone else...

If you want to attack his arguments, you might do so by saying, for example, that trying to court women into gaming is inherently predicated on sexist assumptions. I think that would lead to an interesting discussion.

Difficult! I suppose that trying to attract people of a particular mindset into gaming could not be perceived as -ist. If the mindset in question is "feminine", but the appeal is not "to women because women are automatically feminine" then I don't think the appeal could be accused of sexism. Feminine, having connotations of gender as it does, is perhaps not a good word for the mindset.

At a more limited level, someone might say, for instance "this RPG will be heavy on social interaction and low on hot dice-rolling combat action" without sexism. If they said "this RPG will be heavy on social interaction yada yada therefore it will appeal to women" it could be considered sexist.

I'm having difficulty framing my thoughts on this one, gimme a hand, would ya?
 
 
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19:09 / 18.04.06
It's a blunderbuss example of blatant idiocy and prejudice, yes. I'd imagine any GM who could only portray female characters as one of two stereotypes would have a hard time holding onto good roleplayers.

Actually, he had a consistent population of mostly male gamers who were good roleplayers who enjoyed his cinematic style, recognized its limitations, and weren't horribly inconvenienced by them. On occasion, when women were present, one of the guys would admit (often unprompted) that his portrayal of female characters was sexist, but would usually go on to defend it as exemplary of his genre or stylistic influences. The GM, IIRC, often used the "it's the genre" line when his portrayals were challenged, or would say something like "I base these situations on my own life, and women have always betrayed me." One of the regular players was known for taking issue with my occasional cross-gender character playing because, as he said, "No man can play a woman that is not offensively stereotypical." I mention this last because I feel it's a sign of a negative influence from gaming with this GM, on other people, but I have no real evidence that they are causally connected. I feel there's a correlation in that some time after the GM moved away, this player finally ventured into the realm of playing a female character, and did so quite well and non-stereotypically (she was a half-orc fighter with rangery tendencies).

This is not limited to one case. You asked for an example; I gave you a very clear one. How about the way in many games the female NPCs are nearly always mages and healers, not fighters, guards, rulers, judges, or rangers? How about stat adjustments for female characters? How about the way GMs may favor brute-force solutions to problems and be unable to make adjustments if a player's style is to cooperate to solve problems? How about the way gaming groups are often led by the person who asserts their opinion the loudest and the most dogmatically, leaving people who are socially conditioned not to engage in this kind of communication excluded from the decision-making process?

I have not disagreed that there are examples of prejudice in tabletop roleplay. I continue to disagree that prejudice is necessarily all pervasive in a significant way. If one GM is an idiot it is not the responsibility of other roleplayers to rectify that; it is not their fault. If they can do something (amicably!) about it, all for the good - but I don't think the approach "I have decided we are a community, and that therefore I am my brother(ha!)'s keeper, and somehow to blame for, uh, his sexism" is sensible. Particularly if it's one person unilaterally deciding to accept blame on behalf of everyone else...

I continue to assert that you are making that argument up in your head, since I nowhere see it advanced in these two articles or this thread. Please, show me where it exists.

If you're taking issue with the very fact that people should be talking about sexism as a possible problem in the gaming industry/subculture, then I strongly disagree; I think it should be talked about. However, I don't see anyone saying that they will take responsibility for someone else's failings, or that they will take sole responsibility for fixing all the problems of the gaming world.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
21:25 / 18.04.06
I continue to assert that you are making that argument up in your head, since I nowhere see it advanced in these two articles or this thread. Please, show me where it exists.

It's lines like "The grounds for part 2 are that you have to also agree with me that men have a position of privilege. We all have to dig that in order to move any further on this." and "As with all those ‘arenas,’ there’s a whole set of privileges associated with being a man vs. being a woman." that gave me that impression. That's very inclusive language!

"All those things I listed above are kind of quiet and subversive, or else they’re all too easily dismissed away as the acts of individuals. So instead it’s as if privilege isn’t there. The things that men enjoy with their privilege become what’s ‘normal."

It's exactly what he's saying, no? All men supposedly enjoy this privilege, all men are the problem even when they don't know it. Don't you think that's a bit off?

If you're taking issue with the very fact that people should be talking about sexism as a possible problem in the gaming industry/subculture, then I strongly disagree; I think it should be talked about.

I think it should be talked about. But I don't particularly feel the need to find prejudice where none exists, and I don't appreciate - surely you understand! - being told (repeatedly, now) that "those who say there is no prejudice are simply blind to it". Suppose there is a game running which is unbiased (or, rather, which is only biased to such a small degree that there is no noticeable detrimental effect). Someone saying "there is no bias in that game" would be treated as wrong, or misguided, under that kind of reasoning. I would like to retain the right to say, of games which have not appeared to me to be biased, "they were unbiased" without being automatically treated as mistaken, if you see what I mean.

I'm not up for a fight, y'know. And I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what you said before, for example, that trying to court women into gaming is inherently predicated on sexist assumptions. I think that would lead to an interesting discussion. The root question, I think, is the far more general: "to what degree can decisions be made based upon characteristics generally shared by a group of people", which, I suppose, is the eternal question at the heart of all -isms. "Is it right to attempt to appeal to the 'most common' behaviours of women?" or somesuch.
 
 
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06:32 / 19.04.06
All men supposedly enjoy this privilege, all men are the problem even when they don't know it. Don't you think that's a bit off?

No, I don't. At all. I wouldn't say that all men "are the problem," but I absolutely agree that all men have male privilege to some degree, and especially when we are not conscious of how we use our privilege, we often perpetuate oppression against those denied it. This is a central premise of every anti-oppression advocacy I've ever encountered: Those who have privilege are often blind to it, and as we are blind to it, even though we are good people and have the best of intentions, the way we unconsciously exercise our privilege often inconveniences or even oppresses others with less power in society.
I'm sorry to see that you're unfamiliar with this line of reasoning. I'd like to suggest that you read some things about privilege, such as:

Male privilege defined

Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

Male privilege checklist

Christian privilege (to give an example which might be clearer to you, or it might not; I'm only guessing)

Teaching About Being an Oppressor

This might be a good start; as it stands we have a communication breakdown. I will not agree that just because you don't see privilege/sexism in action, it doesn't exist. If you do not see a possibility that you have privileges you are unaware of, and that the lack of these privileges by certain others results in difficulty or discomfort for them, then it will be hard for us to understand each other.

As I understand it, you are justifiably irritated at the author's assumption of certain prior knowledge or familiarity which you lack. I hope your irritation at this point won't discourage you from learning more about the issue. If you come to fully understand the arguments on which this author's articles are based, and you still disagree with them, I think we'll have a more productive discussion.

I realize this sounds an awful lot like "You must agree with me or you are wrong." I am saying, like the author, that if we can't meet somewhere on this point, then because my argument takes this point as a given, we will not be able to meet at all, and I'm sorry this leaves you somewhat at loose ends.
 
 
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06:39 / 19.04.06
trying to court women into gaming is inherently predicated on sexist assumptions. I think that would lead to an interesting discussion.

As regards this:

I think one would have to demonstrate that trying to prevent gaming environments from being uncomfortable for women equated to trying to "court them." I don't think the two are the same— I'm talking about trying to remove an obstacle, rather than trying to create a new market. But, of course, you'd have to allow that the obstacle might be there in the first place.

Incidentally, I empathize with how irritating it can be to be told that unconscious actions of yours might uphold an oppressive system; I have to check my defensive reaction whenever I am told that I am acting oppressively out of my white privilege. But I am aware that my defensive reaction and my irritation are usually signs that I am wrong, and often if I give the person who is sharing their concerns with me the benefit of a fair hearing, I learn something interesting and useful about my own thoughts and behaviors. It's a benefit I can't have if I refuse to listen from a center that includes the knowledge that I could be wrong.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
09:02 / 19.04.06
I'm sorry to see that you're unfamiliar with this line of reasoning. I'd like to suggest that you read some things about privilege, such as:
Male privilege defined

It's interesting to see that the UK ranks considerably in advance (8th) of the US (17th) on the World Economic Forum survey of 'Gender Gap Index' (and, indeed that the top five places are held by our neighbouring countries around the North Sea and that the sixth and seventh are held by Canada and New Zealand). If the survey is substantially correct, then the different conditions pertaining could help explain why I'm finding so many of the listed "points where male privilege applies" highlighted by American authors to be patent rubbish when applied to the culture I know. That's not to say that the UK is in any sense free of gender bias, just that some forms of gender bias which appear to be taken for granted as prevalent in the US are absent or largely absent here.
Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
As noted above, many of the points of privilege simply do not obtain in the UK. Furthermore, many points listed appear to me to be, generously speaking, misunderstandings.
For instance, things like: "I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented" or "I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race" do not necessarily imply privilege if they are simple reflections of demographics. This sort of statement needs restating as "I see fewer people of my race/gender represented than I would expect if there were no discriminatory mechanism at work", which does not, perhaps, work quite so well as a soundbite but which has the advantage of not necessarily implying discrimination where none may exist.
Male privilege checklist
Again, about half of the listed points just don't apply, or apply in very much reduced form. I'd rather not discuss each point on all these lists individually, although I will if you like. At least some of them stand out as ones which could actually be demonstrably incorrect.
Christian privilege (to give an example which might be clearer to you, or it might not; I'm only guessing)
I must confess, it's not really my scene.
Teaching About Being an Oppressor
I find the language used in this one quite deeply offensive, as if the author had decided to embrace the "all men are rapists" viewpoint with a masochistic fervour.

What bothers me most, I suppose, is that all these authors, who are clearly acting out of good intentions, appear to me to be finding prejudice where none need exist and, worse, to have accepted as a working rule the idea that if you can't see prejudice you're not looking hard enough. I'll grant that conditions could be that much worse in the States, but I still feel that in many places the authors are manufacturing their own examples of discrimination. The existence of dogma - that working rule - is, in my eyes, a very dangerous thing. It's a persuasive idea; certainly it is sometimes correct; but not all the time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:11 / 19.04.06
I think one would have to demonstrate that trying to prevent gaming environments from being uncomfortable for women equated to trying to "court them." I don't think the two are the same— I'm talking about trying to remove an obstacle, rather than trying to create a new market. But, of course, you'd have to allow that the obstacle might be there in the first place.

To crosspollinate a little - this reminds me of a book called "How to get girls (into your comic book shop) - a guide written by two women on how to make comic book shops a more welcoming environment for female shopppers, whose experience of retail might be different. A lot of this stuff was really very simple, and actually applied to attracting a more varied clientele generally - not putting in so many window displays that it made it impossible to see in and dark inside, hoovering, putting a variety of products on display - and other parts were things that might seem painfully obvious to we jolly sophisticates - don't assume that women in your shop are looking for Barbie comics, or are there to get something for their boyfriend, don't follow them around, if they ask a question don't address the answer to the guy they are with, don't tolerate other customers talking about them loudly, and so on. As a document, it's very interesting - it's possible that the writers had simply had very bad luck with their retail experiences, or were lying, but it did suggest that there were groundwork issues that needed to be addressed before "courting" really became an issue. Is this a coomparable situation?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:14 / 19.04.06
I find the language used in this one quite deeply offensive, as if the author had decided to embrace the "all men are rapists" viewpoint with a masochistic fervour.

Young man, there's a place you can go...
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
18:04 / 19.04.06
Where I am currently living there have been 2 major gaming shops, both privately owned (Albuquerque doesn't have a Games Workshop) by women. One of them I worked at for a couple of years before it went under, the other one where I currently game.

While the store I worked at (Store A fo ease of this post) was open there was a woman behind the counter more then half the time, and everyone who shopped there knew who she was. During actual gaming sessions there if she was not playing then there were usually no female players. Over time the numbers grew, but only to 1 or 2, and usually the female gamers were playing quick games, like MAgic, Lunch Money etc.. while groups taking up the back room were almost always male.

At the current store I have only ever seen 1 woman playing in the back, and she is married to one of the regulars, so may have been assimilated, I did not know them prior to their marriage to say for sure.

The point I am making, if I am making one, is that these stores were owned and operated by women, the women behind the counter were more often then not the most informed people in the store, and the stores were set up in a way that made them inviting to women. There were still no women gamers. I wonder if the issue here is less that the male gamers are biased and pushing away women who might enjoy gaming, and more that the industry has no idea how to cater to women in any way, shape or form.

An example I would use of this would be the artwork in the D&D books, where no matter how battle ready a female character might be stats wise, her outfit in the art is always some kind of chain link half shirt and mini skirt.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
18:35 / 19.04.06
This sort of struck me while I was trying to put things into words earlier.

Things which influence a person's decisions are a continuous spectrum. In other words, our prejudices, and anything we take into account when making a decision, are enormously complicated things; beyond any simple analysis whatsoever (as, fundamentally, we're taking about massively interlinked networks carrying a stupendous amount of information, to wit, our brains).

However, a person's decisions may be discrete. Importantly, when dealing with matters bureaucratic there is a better chance that they will be discrete than otherwise. In other words, a decision such as "does this person get the job" is a discrete decision. A decision such as "how much do we pay this person for the job" is a continuous decision.

Anyway, what I was musing on was that if one influence is comparatively strong (let's call it "duty") and another influence is comparatively weak (let's call it "prejudice"), such that "duty" will always beat "prejudice" - in much the same way that, although I might occasionally feel a passing desire to, oh, I dunno, scream at some of my more annoying colleagues, I'll never actually do it! - then if the decision to be made is a discrete one, although the person is prejudiced, that will never actually matter.

I suppose the essence of this is that, for instance, a prejudiced person might not be influenced by their prejudices to the extent that they would let it be a consideration as to whether someone got a job with them, but that the amount they paid the person would be influenced by their prejudice - unless that amount wasn't up to their own judgement...

It's a horrible thought. Equality through bureaucracy!
 
 
gridley
18:42 / 19.04.06
An example I would use of this would be the artwork in the D&D books, where no matter how battle ready a female character might be stats wise, her outfit in the art is always some kind of chain link half shirt and mini skirt.

Yes. One of my greatest stumbling blocks in trying to lure female friends into RPGs has always been the artwork in the books. Part of me always wants to defend it because it came out of this tradition of great fantasy pulp covers by guys like Frazetta and Vallejo and it's staying true to its roots. But I'm also embarassed when pointing some bit of text out of these books to women gamers, because it feels a bit like forcing some disinterested party to look at your pornography magazines because you think they might be interested in one of the articles. Fortunately, most of my female friends at least dig the kitsch value of the art, but quite a few have been distinctly put off by it.

A bit off-topic, but I've been playing World of Warcraft quite a bit lately and have noted the differences between how some particular pieces of armor can look one way on a female character and a very different way on a male character. I can probably dig up some screenshots if anyone's interested, but there are many cases where... say... this particular chainmail chestpiece will show up as little, belly-baring half shirt on a female, but then if you model it on a male, it covers their entire torso.

Of course, the paper doll fashion aspect of the game is a big appeal to a lot of players and there are plenty of non-revealing armor choices out there for both genders, so no one's forcing you to wear something you don't want to, but I sometimes wonder if there are players who feel put off by all the half-naked warrior women running around them.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
18:48 / 19.04.06
I find the language used in this one quite deeply offensive, as if the author had decided to embrace the "all men are rapists" viewpoint with a masochistic fervour.

Ok, ok, forgive me. It was the use of language such as "Should I decide to rape a woman in my quest to feel superior", "To demonstrate my superiority, should I feel the need to physically assault my "wife"", "Moreover, should abusing my "wife" not be sufficient, I can additionally turn my perversely exercised authority on my children." etc. etc. ad tedium which annoyed me. The author of that could have made his points without couching them in such provocative language, as if these were normal behaviour for the men he's describing (=all men; he starts off his list with "I can be reasonably sure that most jobs I might apply for I will not only have a better chance of getting them than a comparably qualified woman", which can reasonably be understood as pertaining to everyone male, and gets nastier as he goes on). It's unnecessary.

So, yeah, I suppose his "shock tactic" has, at least, had the effect of making me read his article.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
18:57 / 19.04.06
Half naked warrior women!
The artists should be tied up and forced to read Ash until their eyes bleed. Set at the end of the fifteenth century, female protagonist, written by a woman learn-ed in history and experienced at wearing proper armour and fighting with a sword. And an ex-LRPer and writer of erotica, to boot... (/fanboy)
 
 
Isadore
22:24 / 19.04.06
...he starts off his list with "I can be reasonably sure that most jobs I might apply for I will not only have a better chance of getting them than a comparably qualified woman", which can reasonably be understood as pertaining to everyone male, and gets nastier as he goes on.

Is this not true, though? I've certainly had trouble with certain sorts of interviewers because it's apparently what's in your pants, not your head, that matters to them. And with more sorts of gamers, for that matter; I've been pushed off by more than one group because of my gender.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:06 / 19.04.06
And with more sorts of gamers, for that matter; I've been pushed off by more than one group because of my gender.

Ah-hah! First person narrative. Could you give us a bit more info on this, Celane, if it's not too upsetting?
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
23:07 / 19.04.06
Absolutely it's true. It was the way he started his list with something sensible, and by about halfway through was into "if I feel like raping someone, I can get away with it" as if there was some kind of obvious natural progression, that irked me.

Maybe I'm oversensitive. I obviously am, 'cause I'm worried id's dismissed me as unreasonable...
 
 
Isadore
23:19 / 19.04.06
Ah-hah! First person narrative. Could you give us a bit more info on this, Celane, if it's not too upsetting?

Sure. The most recent example was the on-campus sponsored role-playing group at my university a few years ago. I asked one of the members, a fellow who lived in the same dormitory as myself, when the meetings were, as I wanted to join, and possibly bring an interested friend (also female) with me. He said he'd ask the group, and the next time I ran into him -- with them -- said that no, they decided that "having a girl around would throw off their game." My friend got rather annoyed and wanted to bring it to administrative attention since school-fee-supported clubs are supposed to be non-discriminatory, but she was graduating soon with lots of research and conferences and whatnot going on, and so, left the decision up to me; I felt that if they were going to be jerks we didn't want to deal with them anyway, and didn't press the matter. So far as I know, that group self-destructed and the university now has a new and different role-playing group which I have not, as yet, investigated. Since then I've stuck to role-playing with people I already know.

Hope that clears a few things up, or helps, or something.
 
 
Isadore
23:51 / 19.04.06
I suppose it is worth adding that I've had very positive experiences with groups ranging from mostly male, with myself the only exception, to entirely female. It really does depend on the people. I also had a very friendly relationship with the owner of my FLGS and his family. There were the occasional jerks who went to my FLGS at the same time I did, of course, but the owner tells lots of amusing stories on his own blog, so in some respects I was lucky not to run into more of them.
 
 
*
08:10 / 20.04.06
I obviously am, 'cause I'm worried id's dismissed me as unreasonable...

No, I'm just unprepared to back up the entire basis for anti-oppression activism in this particular thread, and I have a lot of stuff in real live life going on right now. I'll come back to this later, I promise.

I will let you in on a seekrit though. I just copy-pasted a lot of links I had in a bookmark folder entitled "Privilege." It's been a long time since I read some of these last. My impression of the prof's piece from last time I read it was that the point is that the category "man" is constructed to have these powers in our society, and (for example) while very obviously most men do not intend to exercise the power to rape, we may threaten women with that power without ever intending to— the way we look at people, speak to people, or take up space can have the effect of reminding others of that gendered power dynamic. One of the ways we start to work on that is to remember "In comparison with this person, I have X privileges and powers— if I really want to have an egalitarian interaction, I have to be conscious of how my privilege and power affects our communication." But the prof is talking to people who not only get this core concept, but spend much of their professional lives examining it, and it was not a good choice to link you to.

I have to figure out a way to get across to you that an interaction between a man and a woman is affected negatively by social gender inequalities, in a way which we don't easily see, as men. Even though inequality is almost all-pervasive, that doesn't always mean it causes a particular problem— you give the example of demography. If a tourist video for a particular island shows only white people, this could be racist— or it could be that the island is in the Orkneys, and there are just very few people of color around. But if the island is one off the coast of North Carolina which is well-known as a tourist destination for the extremely wealthy, then the demographics might be a sign of a deeper racial issue, probably one that is not particular to the island or the video. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. However, it may or may not be relevant, and there are ways of figuring that out.

Anyway, I'm derailing my own thread. I'd love to hear more from you, Celane. I could talk more about my experiences gaming when I used to live as a woman, but I'd rather not have to. It always seems a little disingenuous.
 
 
Isadore
18:32 / 20.04.06
The rest of my examples are from high school or earlier, and I feel they are not particularly interesting; kids are just cruel and stupid and stuck on themselves sometimes. I tend to expect more from adults.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
22:00 / 20.04.06
Specific examples of male privilege when gaming (some of these are from LRP, but I think the two groups are similar enough for that still to be useful). Some of these are more blatant then others.

1. The assumption that a female gamer won't know the rules and will need 'help' with creating her character.

2. The assumption that if a women turns up to the same LRP event as her male partner she must be there because he is.

3. "Women can't fight". Not only have I known many female LRPers who could kick my arse in combat (which admittedly isn't difficult, I go for the 'shriek and hide in a bush when combat starts' tactic), I've known many who are among the best LRP warriors I know.

4. The young man at university who accused me, in all seriousness, of not letting him join my Vampire game (which was 50/50 female/male) because I "wanted to keep the women to myself". As opposed to the far more obvious conclusion that I didn't want him to join my game precisely because he said things like that. And I didn't like him.

5. The idea that female gamers are some mystical other (not confined to gaming, obviously) so want entirely different things from their roleplaying. Whereas most women gamers I've known want games that aren't shit, much like me.

6. Pseudohistorical arguments for female characters having to take a 'traditional' role. Ignoring the fact that we are playing a game with elves, dwarves and fireballs. Which isn't really a fucking historical simulation.

7. Most horrifically (and this is thankfully a lot rarer in my experience) women who have gone a long to an all male group for their first game, whereupon the GM has decided it would be a hilarious idea to have their character raped. I also know of a handful of similar incidents in LRP. Though I will say that the vast majority of gamers I know go ballistic at this kind of thing.

All of these are either incidents I saw firsthand, or things I heard from other gamers who I trust implicitly.

In terms of open misogyny coming from sections of the industry, I'd point people in the direction of Pimp the Backhanding (offensive link) and its underlying message that violence against women is funny.

There's an excellent article on that game here.

To say, as the original article does, that there are serious issues of male privilege in the gaming community isn't the same thing as claiming that every individual male gamer or gaming group is misogynyistic. But I agree totally with the author that this is an issue that needs addressing.

(I haven't started on the question of white privilege in gaming because I think it's a big enough issue, as is this, to be discussed separately).
 
 
gridley
14:05 / 21.04.06
In terms of open misogyny coming from sections of the industry, I'd point people in the direction of Pimp the Backhanding (offensive link) and its underlying message that violence against women is funny.

Wow, that's awful. I can't believe White Wolf publishes that. I haven't played their games since the late 90s, but I remember them as being easilly the most woman-friendly gaming publisher around. What happened to them? Are they under new management and trying to change their image?
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
14:19 / 21.04.06
Pimp the Backhanding????? What the fuck is wrong with them?

As staded by Gridley, they were the first company to be female gamer friendly, afaik, and this is what they are putting out now?

Christ.

Also, as a discussion topic, do we dare bring up the men-gaming-as-female-characters-badly thing as being a possible cause for women gamers feeling alienated in the gaming world? On line, for example, in World of Warcraft almost every time I am in a group with a female character some idios starts saying "R U femal IRL???". I know in tabletop games it always makes me mildy uncomfortable when a guy plays a girl, because it generally does revert to horrible stereotyping (not always, but often). Any thoughts on that?
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
15:51 / 21.04.06
First off apologies to id for my earlier derailment of his thread.

3. "Women can't fight". Not only have I known many female LRPers who could kick my arse in combat (which admittedly isn't difficult, I go for the 'shriek and hide in a bush when combat starts' tactic), I've known many who are among the best LRP warriors I know.

Agreed. But it's worth bearing in mind that LRP combat generally disallows grappling, using brute force to disarm or break weapons, using brute force to knock your opponent around, hitting hard enough to break bones, and sticking large sharpened lumps of metal through other people (alas!). Which reduces it's applicability to 'real' combat somewhat, although the skill required to fight well in LRP is very high.

Generally, I would agree that there is absolutely no 'psychological' barrier to women fighting in melee, and no 'skill' barrier. However, brute force does count for something, and as men are, generally, stronger than women - I believe it's something like 30% on average - women fighting in melee will be, generally, at a disadvantage.

It's an interesting point, because I think someone mentioned earlier having "different stats for men and women" as being a possible sexist element in RPGs. Would it be sexist for an RPG to reflect reality, and give comparitive "strength" stats of 4 and 3 (whatever) for men and women? Further, the usual trend would be to balance that (I won't go into a rant about the iniquities of balance in RPGs here!) by arbitrarily assigning female characters some corresponding bonus to something perceived as a social attribute. I submit that that would be sexist.

Also, as a discussion topic, do we dare bring up the men-gaming-as-female-characters-badly thing as being a possible cause for women gamers feeling alienated in the gaming world?

Speaking as a hapless trans-wannabe, it drives me nuts, or at least into a state of quiet despair. That being said, the usual female reaction, so far as I've seen, to bad-male-gaming-as-female has been more along the lines of rolling eyes at the idiocy than outright outrage.
 
 
Isadore
17:45 / 21.04.06
I know in tabletop games it always makes me mildy uncomfortable when a guy plays a girl, because it generally does revert to horrible stereotyping (not always, but often). Any thoughts on that?

That's called 'bad roleplaying'.

In the group that I was (for a long time, at least) the only woman in, we had a fellow who was extremely creative and often gamemastered -- but when he played, he almost always played female characters, inevitably lesbian, and invitably perky to the point of spastic. He did a great job at it, too. At one point he had a LE elven cleric with very high strength and dexterity dancing about in full plate mail with a mace she named Freedom, and every time she attacked he'd cry out, "Freeeeedommmmmm!" It was wonderful.

Sure, there was a common thread running through all of his characters. He took the crazy genki role in our gaming group, and he did it well, because he was crazy and genki when he wasn't out there getting beat down by Real Life. We all had roles in the group that we ended up replaying, system after system, character after character, because it was what we liked to do and what we were good at. I certainly had a role in the group that I filled: I was the 'straight man', the practical one. I always gimped Empathy to max out 'more important' things like Intelligence and Agility. Most of my characters came from a criminal or downright demonic background, which, combined with low Empathy, meant that I was usually the one left investigating people turned inside out after everyone else left the room vomiting. Likewise, we had a fellow in the group who was always the combat bunny; we made fun of him for keeping dice rolls hidden and often joked that he used loaded dice because he failed so rarely. (He was ex-military; go figure.) We had another guy who was disloyalty personified, and was usually stabbing the combat bunny in the back, often literally. My SO was usually the Po' Boy in the bunch, and invitably gimped his hygiene and grooming skills, which led to great hilarity. (One had only to look in his dorm room to see how appropriate such characterization was.) We were all over the top and a bit stereotyped, and we liked it that way. We weren't doing it to be mean or make fun of anybody, we were doing it because roleplay was our way of getting together and pretending to be something we weren't (or, more likely, were) in a non-Real Life environment where we could blow things up and negotiate with the super-intelligent ferrets who lived in our abandoned warehouse and fight the Catholic Church's diabolical genetic engineering experiments (see the aforementioned ferrets), etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.

I don't think stereotyping is a bad thing in roleplaying if it's done well -- that is, in more of a Campbell jive of heroic and not-so-heroic archetypes than "Well, that's how [group] always acts, so I'm going to make fun of them." I don't like archetypes powered by Meanness; I like archetypes powered by Fun, for both the player and everyone else involved.
 
  

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