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Sheeple and scum and humatons, oh my!

 
  

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EvskiG
19:27 / 27.04.06
(id), if you choose not to believe in money and refuse the very agreement itself, the system may punish you for it. But if a substantial number of people choose not to believe in money and refuse the very agreement itself, they very well may change reality. It's happened many times before, and is almost certain to happen again, eventually.

It seems to me that that's what Marx, as a magician (under my definition, and Mord's), was trying to accomplish.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:30 / 27.04.06
Philosophy of liberty

Just to add a little more to all the poop fingered meanderings, message about liberty from another order of the illuminati, not another one....

Flash presentation.
 
 
*
20:07 / 27.04.06
(id), if you choose not to believe in money and refuse the very agreement itself, the system may punish you for it. But if a substantial number of people choose not to believe in money and refuse the very agreement itself, they very well may change reality.

I agree, but that doesn't mean that my disbelief, or my magical action, is the only thing which needs to happen for this to occur. It also doesn't mean I'm participating in a consensual system as a freely consenting being. If I'm made to sign onto it at gunpoint, it's not consent; if I'm made to sign onto it under threat of not being allowed to eat, to have shelter, to participate in society as a free being, it's not consent. It's not enough that people just all stop believing in the system, they need a third option which is not simply "suffer."
 
 
EvskiG
20:28 / 27.04.06
Well, of course.

Mere belief or disbelief, Tinkerbelle-style, isn't enough.

But if a substantial number of people refuse to accept capitalist reality (including its postulate of money as a thing) as the only possible reality, and imagine and establish alternative structures for organizing production and exchange, they can create real change.

From what I remember from grad school, Marx discussed the idea of "transformation of quantity to quality." Get enough people within a system to act differently, for example, and the system itself changes.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
20:38 / 27.04.06
(And personally after much fucking about I find the incense helps. YMMV. Wouldn't know about the hats.)

Give it a try. You may be surprised how much a very tall hat can make you feel like Abraham Lincoln. I mean, it's either that or grow a beard and a big sad face, and I already got the hat, so y'know.


(I'm kidding of course, I don't actually have the hat)
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:06 / 27.04.06
If you acknowledge that marxiam is part of that system, as are capitalism, fascism and anarchy, and many other forms of politics, how can you change that system, all you are doing is changing the flavour of that system, but not the system, mixing the component parts around doesnt actually change anything, it redefines a new set of limitations, that for a time will seem more desirable to the old set, nothing actually changes accept the conceptions and appearences.

No matter which philosophy/ideaology is predominant the world (not the social/political world) remains very similar to the many cycles it has passed through and so do the spirits of the world.

Your just trying to change the icing on the cake.

The whole idea that somehow self an nature or self and other are in conflict, is what causes many of the problems, just as the duality of dark vs light causes conflict.

The reconilliation is acceptence of how the world is, not via thought, but through being in the world.

The demons of politics are summoned as much by rebels as they are by traditionalists, no matter which sides you ally too, you playing an ideaologys games and not you own.
 
 
*
21:41 / 27.04.06
I'm having difficulty interpreting your post, Wolfangel, but if I have understood you correctly, I think the point that you are making is that insanity and pretension are both capable of confusing the credulous and appearing as transcendence. I agree, and I can't think of a message more germane to the original topic of this thread.
 
 
EvskiG
21:53 / 27.04.06
Hmm . . . what's a way to express my thoughts that you'll appreciate from your enlightened position, Wolfangel?

How about this: "why do boddhisatvas forsake nirvana?"

Or maybe this: "first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is"?

This one will probably resonate best: "why does Illuminatus! include BOTH Hagbard Celene AND the Dealy Lama?"

Yes, I appreciate that when viewed from one perspective all conflict begets further conflict, and the only response seems to be to seek to reside in the eternal now and act accordingly. I also know that after attaining some degree of enlightenment, plenty of reputed mystics and sages from Jesus to Gandhi found it necessary and appropriate to take action for social change in the material world.

If you're a slave seeking your freedom, it's hard to appreciate that you're "just trying to change the icing on the cake."

Or as John Maynard Keyes said, "in the long run we are all dead."
 
 
Bruno
12:03 / 28.04.06
(id)entity and evski g I really enjoyed reading your posts.

In western society, people are under an interesting spell in which they see money (and wealth) as THINGS rather than relations. This is what Marx described as commodity fetishism and is intrinsically tied to his theory of alienation. What is really interesting is Reich's take on alienation; that it is mirrored in the body and the flow of energy. When Marx describes alienation as the subject using her own powers to create a power outside herself, which objectifies her and robs her of her power, it is not just a metaphor or an abstract relation, but a physical-energetic phenomenon. It is interesting too that Freud wrote about fetishism in terms of how libido is expended and focused.

I consider magical practice to be to a large extent working on the energy which Reich described, becoming aware of it, transforming it, conserving it, cultivating it, focusing it, and so on. IIRC in one of the intros to Regardie's Golden Dawn, orgone, libido, prana, chi and LVX are said to be terms for the same phenomenon; from my own limited experiences I think this is accurate.

The stimuli around us in capitalism often focus the libidinal energy towards consumption, sometimes completely blatantly but other times not so obviously. Desire, rather than being an expression of Will, tends to take the form of confused complexes which are then charged with our own alienated libidinal energy, overpowering Will.

The system is propped up by a structure of myths. Consumption (the junk trip: you are unsatisfied, buy and become satisfied) is just one of them. These myths are also charged with libidinal energy, this is how they acquire their strength. So becoming aware of these myths, doubting them and refusing to charge them with libidinal energies, is also kind of basic practice in my mind. As is the creation of new myths which empower and do not alienate.

I think working with the flow of energy is basic to having the strength to deal with the practical forms of resistance (id)entity is concerned about.

-bruno
 
 
Sam T.
12:32 / 28.04.06
Come on, that Crowley's definition of magic is, for me, totally tongue in cheek.

I mean, sure, proper application of will can change the world. But there are different kind of application of the will. You can do it by physical means or you can propel some new and more powerful/better replicating memes in the ideasphere, which is something, no doubt.

You can discover how some part of reality works, like Pasteur, and because you can deduce proper and succesful applications of it, the meme will propagate, because it is true and usefull.

But we're not talking about that when we're thinking about magic, now, do we? At least, I'm not. What I meant by magic is getting results by means that are not those outlined above, by means which are, as Q pointed, commonly called supernatural.

And I refuse to called those other means of getting change in accordance with will magic, and I'm sure that this is the common way this 'magic' word is understood by just everybody else on the planet.
 
 
EvskiG
14:23 / 28.04.06
I think Crowley was dead serious about that definition.

Personally, if I get the result I want, I'm indifferent about whether it came by supernatural or supposedly mundane means. And, over the years, I've come to believe that there's a lot of magic in the supposedly mundane.

From Magick in Theory and Practice:

"When Frater I. A. was in danger of death in 1899 e.v. Frater V. N. and FRATER PERDURABO did indeed invoke the spirit Buer to visible manifestation that he might heal their brother; but also one of them furnished the money to send him to a climate less cruel than England's. He is alive to day; who cares whether spirits or shekels wrought that which these Magicians willed?"

As Mord put it, there are a lot of ways to put your thumb on the scale of reality.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:53 / 28.04.06
But, butbutbut, I would contend that there's a big difference between scratching your arse and saying "Look, I dood magic, hyuk hyuk!" and what Crowley seemed to be talking about, which is seeking to bring the magic into the mundane--or rather to find the magic already dwelling there. The first is smug, arrogant and self-serving, it breeds only stagnation; by deeming all things 'magical,' the armchair mage has absolved hirself of all further striving.

What I'm talking about is a lifelong quest to seek out the magical, the spiritual, and the holy in everything one does. The simplest task can be magical, and the most sophisticated spells will fail if you don't provide a way in which their intent can be realised. Ultimately I believe that magic is about allowing the 'mundane' to become the conduit by which holiness is made manifest to us.
 
 
Sam T.
15:00 / 28.04.06
I think Crowley was dead serious about that definition.

If he is, then I don't agree with him.

Personally, if I get the result I want, I'm indifferent about whether it came by supernatural or supposedly mundane means. And, over the years, I've come to believe that there's a lot of magic in the supposedly mundane.

It seems to me that this amount a lot to says that everything is, in a way, magical. Which of course implies that nothing really is.

"When Frater I. A. was in danger of death in 1899 e.v. Frater V. N. and FRATER PERDURABO did indeed invoke the spirit Buer to visible manifestation that the might heal their brother; but also one of them furnished the money to send him to a climate less cruel than England's. He is alive to day; who cares whether spirits or shekels wrought that which these Magicians willed?"

Well *I* care. There is a world of difference to me to know if that man was cured by a spirit or by proper climate, or both. And I'm pretty sure that it would do a world of difference to quite a lot of people.

It all amount to the very simple question: 'Can we, by a mental act of will alone, without any kind of other direct physical intervention or utterance, modify reality, or make things happens?'

If the answer is 'no', then magic is nothing but dressep up psychology.

And I understand very well the 'change your view of the world to change your reaction to it which will then bring about proper results' part of it all. This is very important, but this is not what I'm talking about, and I don't believe this is only what there is to it.

Of course, I'm also all for joint approaches, and doing something more than just magic to get results is always a good idea, but that is not the problem I'm poking here either.

What I am forced to constat is that I am doing magic on things that are totally out of my grasp and that most of the time I got results just like I wanted them. I did manage to modify reality by an act of will. This, I call magic.

Writing a letter, or getting ideas out or finding a cure for cancer is not at all, at all, in the same bag.
 
 
Sam T.
16:10 / 28.04.06
Now, of course, if what is meant by all this is that writing a letter, etc... can become a magical act, I agree.

I just don't think it is, by default.
 
 
Sam T.
17:00 / 28.04.06
Just saw your answer, Mordant. I grok what you mean.
 
 
Unconditional Love
01:32 / 29.04.06
Just one thing, i am in no way enlightened or insane, but very much having pretensions to even think i know anything at all.

If you start from the point of view of slave or the oppressed, then what ever you percieve as master or tyrant will rule you in a self set up bout of conflict, externalise parts of the self onto society in order to create a justifiable enemy and create a suit of armour worn as righteous conflict.

Something i used to do about all the parts of me that didnt fit into my neatly concieved self. I dont want to admit that i am just as capable of being the enemy that i try to fight.

project values contrary to other values to create a sense of self worth formulated on the idea of conflict, that as a by product creates internal conflict and reestablishes the tension that was trying to be fought, created by a duality that is opposed in character rather than integrated into a perception.
 
 
Bruno
18:49 / 07.05.06
The distinction between the mundane and the magick is largely erroneous as I see it. It smells of the distinction between boring routine life and a Saturday night outing if you can see what I mean… mundane means dull, and to understand everyday practical activity as dull maybe indicates a lack of imagination. And imagination is generally regarded as one of the pillars of magick. There is also a strong parallel with the dadaist-surrealist-Situationist critique of the distinction between art and life; the Situationists in particular emphasized the creative potential in the most simple of acts, like walking in the street. Creativity also being a basic principle of magick. I think painting or writing poetry or playing music are fine as isolated activities, just as I can appreciate the value of isolated magickal activity but of equal importance is the appreciation of the poetic or musical or magickal within everything outside that isolated sphere. Especially when the magick or art is shared with other people.
The vow of the master of the temple ‘to interpret every phenomenon as a personal revelation from divinity’ also shits on the distinction. I sometimes do it but not all the time. The book of the law suggests the same thing where he says “Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.” I don’t agree with using this model all the time (if you like, sometimes restriction is not sin) but I think it says a lot.

And the word ‘supernatural’ which has been used here is I think equally problematic. It depends on one’s definition of the ‘natural’, and what is more magic than Nature? The idea that magic is somehow outside or above nature seems pretty alienated to me. ‘Supernatural’ is always culturally and historically specific, 200 years ago a helicopter or television would be perceived as supernatural. And so would written language to those who had no previous experience with the concept. And I can only try to imagine how the first people to speak must have appeared to those who never did. (These ideas of language as magick are based mainly on interviews with Alan Moore). Burroughs also believed that written language has its origins in inscribing symbols for the purpose of sympathetic magic. Basically ‘language’ is a network of concepts/symbols and the ability to manipulate them; magick could be defined as the same thing (although I would say that there are modes of magickal consciousness that function without language mediating the experience of reality.)
Personally I think magical acts happen all the time (whether in accord with Will or not), and to choose a nasty example because it is easy to understand, someone can be harmed by traditional magick methods (formal spells to curse) but I also think that the same effect can be caused without any formal magical practice, often just outside the realm of observable consciousness, e.g. the evil eye.
I also think that a lot of magical thought and practice has disguised itself; just as medieval magic changed its form in response to the attitudes of religious establishments, so a lot of magic appears in secular ‘mundane’ form.
 
 
Anthony
16:35 / 13.05.06
elitism isn't a bad thing.

i would say that as a supporter of the C.O.S and self-professed LHP practitioner with some RHP sympathies.

which is to say that i practice magick mainly for my self and for my own needs, and the monumental benefits on humanity as a whole are just an inadvertent consequence to me. though i do stick around to sow those benefits and reap the praises.

i actually couldn't give a f*** about humanity as a whole. it's sullied and fallen. so now i sound like a fundamentalist christian - do you get it?

as long as i'm alright, and the people closest to me... the rest of the world can get on with it. but it is going to benefit very soon when we get a record deal.
 
 
Quantum
17:17 / 15.05.06
200 years ago a helicopter or television would be perceived as supernatural.

A Georgian chopper *would* be pretty fucking magical don't you think? Technomagic perhaps, but you know what Arthur C Clarke says- any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from pink unicorns or something. If I had a helicopter in the Napoleonic wars I would be chuffed, and if 200 years later it was explained how it worked (combustion + aerodynamics etc.) that would be cool.
Maybe that's will happen here, and those saying how impossible it is will look foolish to the people of 2206.

Anth, you sound more Gnostic than fundie there.
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:48 / 16.05.06
which is to say that i practice magick mainly for my self and for my own needs, and the monumental benefits on humanity as a whole are just an inadvertent consequence to me. though i do stick around to sow those benefits and reap the praises

Out of interest, what form do you believe these monumental benefits take?

i actually couldn't give a f*** about humanity as a whole. it's sullied and fallen.

But not you eh?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:34 / 16.05.06
Please do NOT feed the fat-head. Any more obese, even Jenny Craig will have to admit defeat.

Or:

What a twat.
 
  

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