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Sheeple and scum and humatons, oh my!

 
  

Page: 1234(5)6

 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:24 / 14.04.06
I'm prepared to believe even Jones, Koresh and Asahara had good intentions way back at the beginning- power does corrupt, though, and that kind of temptation's gotta be hard to resist.
 
 
Quantum
11:26 / 17.04.06
There are living masters who manage to avoid the corruption though. In fact there's an argument that anyone with a really good message is *going to* end up with a following, and if they are actually wise then they should be able to avoid the ego-trap.

Slightly tangentially, I am very much of the opinion that a living master is much better than following a book (as Osho was aware I think), as their teachings change and grow they can tell you, dogma is avoided, you can deside for yourself whether they are genuine or a fraud by meeting them, and you know nobody has edited their work for their own agenda or twisted their teachings or elided the important stuff. Contrary to, say, Christianity.
 
 
Bruno
09:39 / 18.04.06
Sorry for the late reply again.

Illmatic said:
What do you think of historical consciousness?
It’s a term that makes sense if you accept Marxist categories of analysis. As I don’t, it doesn’t hold a lot of meaning for me.


With all due respect Illmatic, it seems quite clear that you don’t have a clue what these categories of analysis are. Which presumably would be a prerequirement for accepting them or not.

The argument re false consciousness is just going in circles so I will leave it be.

I will write about historical consciousness since I havent done so yet, and I think it is of relevence to the thread. It is difficult for me to articulate and define these concepts lucidly; I will do my best. (it's a long post)



1.
Beginning with consciousness.
There us no such thing as the one "true" consciousness, right? Truth is by its nature multiple and infinite. There are states of consciousness.
Some states of consciousness are necessary for survival; without accessing the states of consciousness necessary for acquiring the basic requirements for living, the individual would die.

This is where Marx’s theory of history begins – the basic premise is the relation of the human organism with the environment. This is necessarily a social relation, since we are social in nature. (The theory of history is explained in ‘The German Ideology’)
Marx took a practical and materialistic methodology -and not ideology - so as to avoid the abstraction, essentialism and transcendentalism in previous idealist philosophies of history. (to put him in context, the basis of his methology is largely a reaction against the mystification in Hegel the Hermetic and Feuerbach the Fantastic)

Consciousness is not a metaphysical concept, it only exists within real activity (praxis). The essence of man is his practical activity. It is immanent and not transcendental. (Marx prefers to start the analysis from Malkuth than speculating about Kether)

This real activity necessarily begins with the satisfaction of basic needs. So activity begins with production (the act by the subject upon nature). “All production is appropriation of nature on the part of an individual within and through a specific form of society.” (said Karl) Production is counterpointed to consumption; together with distribution they are part of a single system (one cannot exist without the others). Consumption also produces, and production also consumes (the simplest example is eating). (Marx really analyses the categories of production in the introductory chapter of the ‘Grundrisse’...short but challenging hardcore magic text).

When thinking about production it helps to visualize it with concrete examples; ranging from prehistoric hunting to industrial factory work to cleaning your room to breathing. What characteristics do they share; where do they differ?
Production produces not just the object of production, it also reproduces the way the object will be consumed subjectively. Within the act of production the system of social relations are reproduced. The subject, engaged in the act of production, is also itself produced by the act of production. (In psychological terms, the act of production reinforces itself, and reinforces the context in which it exists.) The act of production also develops certain capacities on the part of the subject, and allows others to atrophy.

A nice quote:
“The everyday activity of slaves reproduces slavery. Through their daily activities, slaves do not merely reproduce themselves and their masters physically; they also reproduce the instruments with which the master represses them, and their own habits of submission to the master's authority. To men who live in a slave society, the master-slave relation seems like a natural and eternal relation. However, men are not born masters or slaves. Slavery is a specific social form, and men submit to it only in very particular material and historical conditions.” (Fredy Perlman, the Reproduction of everyday life)

Capitalism is quite similar; its categories are eternalized and very rarely understood in a historical context. They seem natural but they are transient results of material and historical conditions. It is often very difficult to even understand how entrenched these modes of thinking are, how they have infused so many aspects of life, how difficult it is to stop thinking within these categories. Being impotent to widen our understanding of the historical moment, our apparent choices are restricted; our thoughts and activities are alienated as we reproduce the same system again and again.

In contrast to this, when our Imagination is strong, we can imagine that “another world is possible”. When we can imagine alternative modes of production and social interaction, with as little mediation as possible from the dominant categories of thought, we achieve a different relation with Time. This is in contrast to the limiting idea of time which we reproduce when still working within hegemonic categories of discourse.
In capitalism time is quantified, it is a commodity; we sell our labour-power in blocks of 60 minutes, we ‘save’ time, ‘waste’ time, ‘time is money’. Time is completely objectified, and thus the common experience of time is either that of conquering it or of being prisoners of it. Within the hegemony of capitalism we cannot unite with time as a single process (the unity of subject and object). We live within a very specific conception of past, present and future and of causality.

Historical consciousness is the empowerment of the subject as regards time; we can sequence events in time in multiple ways, we can break free from circular time. We can engage in a dialogue with it.
In terms of work on oneself this is of immense importance. Simply meditating on these ideas can bring about big shifts in consciousness, which have practical value.
In terms of communication and inter-subjectivity, historical thinking broadens discourse and different ways of relating to others.
In terms of the ‘proletariat’ (that is, all of us who sell our time and do not control production) achieving historical consciousness is a prerequisite for taking the direct actions which will result in the supercession of capitalism at some point in the future.

(False consciousness can maybe be defined simply as the absence of historical consciousness.)

I am hardly doing the ideas justice here, and I have left out the concept of alienation/reification and the actual model of history....

2.
Political approaches to achieving awarness tend to focus on altering social conditions, generally assuming that individuals will ‘wake-up’ after the changes (whether these changes take the form of a revolution or something more reformist e.g. civil rights). Magic-mystic approaches to achieving awareness tend to focus exclusively on the individual. They often imply or state clearly that this is ‘secret knowledge’ reserved for a select few.
In my opinion the boundaries between self and others are not very clear cut (hello schizophrenia). In fact, the very rigid definition of 'Me' which is entrenched and widespread is part of the historical-defined ideology of capitalism (and its emphasis on defining units, on personal profit, private propery, competitiveness and so on). (The Matrix Warrior is itself a historically specific form of egotism which seems unlikely to have developed in any other kind of society)

Within magic & mysticism we find many references and techniques for remembering oneself. Being aware and awake in this moment depends to a large extent on the relation of that moment to the events preceding it. The Work necessitates Remembering, bringing old experiences into a new focus, an awareness of continuity and flux, the faculty of reorganizing past events, the ability to learn from history. And learning seems to be the crux of any progress. If you can't remember, you can't learn. If you can't remember, you won't even know what the Work is.
(also the actual relation between Awareness and Memory, which (id)entity and Red Frog pointed out, seems very important somehow but I dont think I can explain things better right now.)

So, in defense of Marxism, its emphasis on Memory is important because it sheds light on the inter-subjective and communal nature of Memory. Marxism is maybe not the only system of thought where this takes place, but it constructs a very detailed map which is still highly accurate in many respects.

bru no
 
 
illmatic
12:07 / 18.04.06
it seems quite clear that you don’t have a clue what these categories of analysis are

I have am perfectly satisfied with my understanding the idea, and have no desire to enlarge upon it. I'm just bored to shit about arguing them with you. I only contributed to this part of the discussion in the first place to tell you're dead wrong to blur the boundaries of Marxism with Gurdjieff's material. Why is this so fucking hard for you to understand? I have first hand experience of working with this stuff for a number of years and I can tell you trying to squeeze it together with Marxism has NO FUCKING RELEVANCE. The only way to understand it is on it's own terms. Kkkkerist.
 
 
Bruno
12:38 / 18.04.06
Illmatic hahaha what a well structured and coherent argument. I'm at a loss for words... (-:
 
 
illmatic
20:41 / 18.04.06
I thought this was relevant espcially the cartoon. I won't link as I don't want to teef bandwidth.

... wrong forum, I know.
 
 
Bruno
08:05 / 21.04.06
Illmatic would you care to describe your experiences of self-remembering techniques?
Do you think the particular results are only possible through these specific techniques?
Do you think it is also 'dead wrong' to compare elements of the Fourth Way with elements of any other system? Is that also failing 'to take it on its own terms'?
 
 
illmatic
11:44 / 21.04.06
Illmatic would you care to describe your experiences of self-remembering techniques?

Okay, I'll try but it's actually really hard...because I'm trying to describe quite subtle things about my own perceptions and realisations. I'm quite concerned that this won't translate through a screen, particularly without the experience to back it up. Experience is the best teacher, really. This is part of my objection to the blurring of the boundaries with Marxism. It's hard enough to describe anyway... Also, I must admit to wanting to keep at least some of the techniques of the group that I am involved with private.

Onward... I worked with a combination of passive (ie static, seated) and active (as one goes about ones' daily business) meditation - for instance, I'd continually bring my attention back to a particular sense throughout the day for a 7 day period, then switch to another sense. For instance, one might use the colour red as a cue to wake up and bring you back to the moment. I'd work on this in conjunction with developing my awareness of the internal dialogue and practising it's cessation. Firstly, you simply discover how hard this is... and then after a while, one starts to realise and feel the implications of this work for all aspects of oneself - one's hangups, and one's sense of self. You cease to be as concerned and identified with the internal dialogue and it's contents and your sense of self *shifts* to ....something else.

This process also gives greatly enhanced confidence, relaxation, grounding and compassion. It gives great insight into areas of "blockage" to a degree that can be quite uncomfortable. I feel I haven't expressed the profoundity of this, for me, but there you go. As Gurdjieff says "life is real only then, when 'I Am'" Also, I have to add, it's a lifelong process and work I'm still engaged in. It's not something one completes.

Do you think the particular results are only possible through these specific techniques? Do you think it is also 'dead wrong' to compare elements of the Fourth Way with elements of any other system? Is that also failing 'to take it on its own terms'?

"I don't know" is my answer to the first question. I haven't tried every techniquew out there so I can only say what works for me. I think the actually tecniques themselves are are shared in common with to a lot of Eastern religions, as well as more "secular" approaches to self-realisation, so "no" is my answer to your second and third questions. However, I do think it's a big mistake to compare them to political and philosophical systems, in fact to compare them to anything that doesn't have an experinetial core, as I've tried to make clear above.

Reading back over my answer, I feel there's a lot of stuff I've missed out but that'll do for now.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:06 / 21.04.06
I am not sure i buy this whole waking up thing, it reeks of a philosophical con trick, much like mystery schools that say, the world is suffering or sinful and the only way is through me. Its not as tight as that but does presuppose that somehow everyday consciousness or just watching t.v is somehow not being awake to greater such and such or to a revolution in perception.

I actually think these everyday activities are just as awake, a few schools of thought would agree with me, this whole consciousness has to be in a special place to be awake, reeks of elitism from the outset.

What if there is no technique that has to be learnt, no special way, just being as you are doing what you do. Answering the phone is just as conscious and awake as meditating, as is taking a dump.

Not to pooh pooh the idea that somehow having an altered state of awareness is more desirable to having an everyday experience of self/selves, but i am. I have practiced meditation on and off for 17 years, i still do, perhaps that has effected the way i see everyday events, but may be not, may be there has always been a joy in doing simple things.

Is it the distance we try to put between ourselves through altered awareness and that simple joy of exsisting and being that perhaps creates a looking down my nose approach to what are everyday events and situations.

Its very easy to get lost in technique and ritual, but not find application or awareness while waiting for a bus, or sorrow for a lost pet, or the anger when i feel the world is against me, all of these i think are just as aware, and a tiny part of the tapestry of consciousness that goes into a days life.
 
 
Sam T.
21:26 / 23.04.06
I think it is me who did the TV part. If that is what you are referring to, I simply want to explain that it was specifically an example.

What I meant is that most people ain't aware that their consciousness is changing. All day long. They think that they have an unmoving, always-the-same-whatever-happens-except when they-had-a-drink consciousness. They don't reflect on it. they don't notice the changes. I don't say that they are less conscious, or humaton, or anything. I, too, have an ever changing consciousness. From time to time now, I catch it when it changes, and have some detachment from it. It's no big deal, I've trained myself to do it. Anyone can.

When people are angry, they are only angry, they are fully angry, they are anger, and nothing else. Same thing with joy, sorrow, etc... they are getting caught in the illusion that their current state of consciousness is the only one that exist. They don't catch the discontinuities. I know that my consciousness is very different when I've been watching Tv for one hour. I'm feeling myself changing consciousness when I watch Tv, this is very pronounced. I'm still getting in the state of consciousness that Tv commands. But I'm noticing it.
 
 
Sam T.
21:34 / 23.04.06
Now, does this preclude getting totally absorbed in a state of consciousness? No, it is still happening to me all the time, getting caught up. As it has said before, I don't think it is possible or necessary to be self conscious all the time. On the other hand, most people I know don't study their consciousness at all, and I think all of them would gain from doing a little meditation.

Just tell everyone you know, that you bet them that you can do a very simple thing, and that they are unable to do it:

"Can you sit on a chair, and do nothing, absolutely nothing, for five full minutes?"

Ask around you. You will be amazed of the answers. And if the answer is 'Yes', ask them to try it.
 
 
Sam T.
21:57 / 23.04.06
Just noticed Illmatic post.

To answer to:

Do you think the particular results are only possible through these specific techniques?

"I don't know" is my answer to the first question. I haven't tried every techniques out there so I can only say what works for me. I think the actually techniques themselves are shared in common with to a lot of Eastern religions, as well as more "secular" approaches

What Illmatic specifically described in his last post is incredibly similar to 'reality-testing' methods used for inducing lucid dreams. I got nearly all my 'self awareness' things from this source, which is completely secular. I'm sure Gurdjieff comes first, but the techniques in themselves are pretty much neutral.

This link above refer to lucid dreaming, but you can pretty much transpose... Oh, just read the whole thing, this guy writes better than I do.
 
 
penitentvandal
07:25 / 25.04.06
You can tell a lot of the people who are telling you how to do the various meditations have probably never meditated before, but that's no biggy.

Actually, I think it kind of is...
 
 
petunia
17:30 / 25.04.06
Yeah, velvetvandal. Looking back on that, i'm not quite sure what i meant. I think it was probably something along the lines of "but that's no major surprise, as there is a common trend throughout the world for people who have no idea about something to be the most vocal about whatever it is they know little about".

Obviously, this is a concern, because most people who visit the Osho center (or any other similar place, i assume) stand the chance of being taught incorrectly and ending up with a misguided understanding of what they are doing. I guess i was lucky in that i had somewhat of an 'insider tour' of the whole thing.

I think my cynicism just leads me to believe that it's pretty inevitable that any message will get altered (purposefully or not) when passed along from its originator. That's why Chinese whispers is so fun :-)
 
 
Bruno
20:52 / 25.04.06
Illmatic interesting post.

However, I do think it's a big mistake to compare them to political and philosophical systems, in fact to compare them to anything that doesn't have an experinetial core, as I've tried to make clear above.

First off 'philosophy' is a super-subjective word, meaning literally Love of Wisdom. Outside of the context of Europe during and after the Renaissance, most of what is labelled philosophy balances the theory with practice (some examples off the dome, Pythagoras, the Stoics, Kabalah, Bagavad Gita, Confucious, Chuang Tse). And one could also argue that any practical activity implies a philosophy of sorts.
But looking at philosophers in Europe from Descartes on to Leibniz and Spinoza, Hume, Berkeley, Kant and Hegel etcetera, all of these cats, they are so abstract and cut off from actual experience. Reading that kind of philosophy and processing it, questioning it etc is fairly good mental exercise, similar to chess, but by the end personally I also find it unsatisfactory. Precisely because it seems to be irrelevent to actual life.
Then along comes Karl as a young man and says "The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it." (the 11th thesis of the Theses on Feurbach - they're short, a good intro to Marx). The basic criticism Marx made of philosophy was that it was alienated from lived activity; it elevated the abstract world to the status of the 'real' world, simultaneously denying the physical world its reality. It's the same criticism he made of religion.
Despite the fact that Marx continued to write with specialized economic jargon and the schizofrenic sentence structure of hegelian philosophy, I would argue that Marxism has an actual experiential core.

Basically the idea is that living conditions are fucked up, once we are conscious of this we start a revolution (transformation ritual) and satisfy our needs, actualise our desires. We observe other attempts at revolutions we have attempted and learn from our mistakes. The difference from most experential systems is that the Experiencer is collective and not just an individual.

On an individual level though I see the practical value of Marxist writers in that they present specific kinds of linguistic constructs which the mind can use as weapons to defend itself from some forms of viral ideas. In this sense I can see some similarities with Gurdjieff's exercises as you have described them, but not to any wow-its-exactly-the-same-thing kind of extent. My point is just that Marxism is not an abstract philosophical system but rather a potential practical magical paradigm, and I think you were a bit quick to dismiss it.
 
 
illmatic
06:46 / 26.04.06
I agree with your comments re. Eastern & Western philosphy, expect I'd lump Marx in with Hegal and the others, precisely because of the jargon and intense economic focus that you identify.

The difference from most experential systems is that the Experiencer is collective and not just an individual.

That's a pretty huge difference, though, no?

My point is just that Marxism is not an abstract philosophical system but rather a potential practical magical paradigm, and I think you were a bit quick to dismiss it.

I think you'll concede this is quite a "unique" reading of Marx. Thus my attitude.
 
 
illmatic
06:48 / 26.04.06
I might ask as well, in a practical sense, what actions have your interests in Marxzzz made you undertake? Have you, for instance, joined a union? Agitated for change in your workplace? etc etc.
 
 
Bruno
09:25 / 26.04.06
I agree with your comments re. Eastern & Western philosphy, expect I'd lump Marx in with Hegal and the others, precisely because of the jargon and intense econmic focus that you identify.

Illmatic have you read him?

jargon: don't all systems have jargon, e.g. Gurdjieff, Kabalah, even chaos magic.

intense economic focus: Marx is often analyzed in two phases, the Young Marx and the 'Mature' Marx. The young Marx is far less economistic.
Although I have agreed with anarchism/communism since I was maybe around 15, I didn't read Marx (except for the manifesto) until I was around 24 and I began with the Theses on Feurbach and the 1844 Manuscripts. By that time, I had already had some strange magical experiences and had read a few occult books, and I was completely blown away by Marx, he was such a fucking mystic it was ridiculous. Once I got the hang of his idiosyncratic style, the texts really touched me as few writings have. And I was struck by the way he flipped mysticism on its head and advocated practical-critical activity, it seemed to me just like magick in a sense.
The later works of Marx on economics (eg Das Kapital) are highly specialized and I won't pretend to know them too well, I have just read bits and bobs. He had a deep interest in political economy and tried removing the veils disguising its nature. My impression is that the older Marx was trying to make his ideas more scientific and factual, therefore more valid.
I always found economics boring.

The difference from most experential systems is that the Experiencer is collective and not just an individual.
That's a pretty huge difference, though, no?


Yes but I think it is important for any system to balance the two. Overemphasizing the individual leads to egotistic self-absorbed "I'm doing work on myself" pseudo-enlightenment which works within a bubble cut off from other people.

I might ask as well, in a practical sense, what actions have your interests in Marxzzz made you undertake? Have you, for instance, joined a union? Agitated for change in your workplace? etc etc.

Nothing I just sit at home reading Marx jerking off chain smoking ordering pizza and eating my toenails.
Seriously though. I sometimes go to demonstrations but they don't thrill me. I try and engage conversations that touch on criticisms of the status quo, used to do this at places I worked too. I never found a union I agreed with, right now I am a freelancer anyway. I used to go spraypainting over billboards but haven't in a while...

Illmatic since you're into Reich, what do you think about the Mass Psychology of Fascism and the link between character structure on one hand and political beliefs and activity on the other?
 
 
illmatic
09:33 / 26.04.06
I modded to add a commnet which I'll repost here.

"Don't you think you have a unique - even eccentric -view of Marx? Certainly it's one that isn't shared by most Marxists that I've met. Does anyone else share your reading?" That's pretty much the reasons for my dismissal.

I'll answer the other points a bit later.
 
 
Quantum
11:07 / 26.04.06
a "unique" reading of Marx

Or to look at it another way an unusual conceptual scheme for understanding magic. Personally I think it's a little impractical and arbitrary, like devising a paradigm based on the Barbelith front screen*. AFAIK Marx wasn't devising a system of magic, but a system of economics. You can map some of his concepts onto occult thought, but, why?

*the mystical 14 Fora/Sephira map onto an extended Tree of Life, the Temple is Forum Six/Tiphereth/The Sun, the Hidden Armory Forum bridges the Abyss, the colours resonate to the themes within the fora, as you master them you internalise their qualities etc etc.
 
 
illmatic
11:23 / 26.04.06
most Marxists that I've met

That should read any Marxists that I've met, and any that I'm aware of, bar you.

I did find your account of reading Marx interesting though. Not enough to want to read him myself though! But, as I said as far as I'm aware, he talks about collective activity, not individial actions, and as you concede, it's a huge difference. So when you say:

Overemphasizing the individual leads to egotistic self-absorbed "I'm doing work on myself" pseudo-enlightenment which works within a bubble cut off from other people.

I would say that can be true, sometimes. However, its a huge generalisation. I don't think it's some sort of failing not to be interested in politics, the complex conceptual schema of Marxism, and more focused on working on yourself, as you seem to be implying.

What you're doing here here is bringing political goals - which can only be realised collectively, into discourses which are much more focused on the individual. Thus the difficultly of making the mesh - to justify you have to assime that everybody who doesn't want to do this is egotistic and self-absorbed.

I think generally, yes, it is a good thing to be involved and active in the world, but you don't need the complexities of Marxism to do that. Arguably, they get in the way.
 
 
Bruno
13:45 / 27.04.06
Does anyone else share your reading?
Magic&Marxism thread shows some crossover (posts & links)...

Marx wasn't devising a system of magic, but a system of economics.
Marx was primarily a critic of economics rather than a creator of a system of economics. His writings cover a far wider range than just economics (sorry but havent I already pointed this out more than once).

Personally I think it's a little impractical and arbitrary, like devising a paradigm based on the Barbelith front screen*.

It's nowhere near as arbitrary. Marx wrote specifically about arriving at consciousness and resolving the conflict between subject (the self) and object (nature). I think this conflict and its resolution is probably the core of most mystic traditions.
In Western Europe modern philosophy was born, partly by trying to resolve the problem scholastically, using only the mind and reason. Giving rise to Cartesian dualism, Kant's noumenal/phenomenal and so on. Hegel resolves it dialectically (understanding that it is a historical process and thus removing the question from a frozen hypothetical moment) but his identical subject-object is abstract, it is the enlightened philosopher.
Marx rejects this kind of consciousness and unity of subject-and-object unless it is manifest in lived activity. By doing this Marx moves the focal point from the philosophical-theological mode to the more practical magic-is-applying-will-to-cause-change mode.

Plus I think the enlightenment ideal of "man as creator of himself" (as opposed to "man as a slave of god's almighty plans") which is basic to Marx is itself a magical position and I would say it has its roots in the mixed ideas of kabbalism, hermeticism, neoplatonism etc which arguably sparked the whole enlightenment.

Also Marx's categories are based on observation, and concepts such as 'class consciousness', 'alienation', 'ideology' and so on have actual referents which influence everyone. I think Reich offered a lot of insight into the actual mechanism by which they influence us.

But, as I said as far as I'm aware, he talks about collective activity, not individial actions, and as you concede, it's a huge difference

But I have also noted that his categories can be useful on an individual level too.

I don't think it's some sort of failing not to be interested in politics, the complex conceptual schema of Marxism, and more focused on working on yourself, as you seem to be implying.

I'm not implying that everyone should read Marx. As for 'politics' it's an interesting word, how exactly would you define it? The personal and the political are intimately tied together aren't they.

What you're doing here here is bringing political goals - which can only be realised collectively, into discourses which are much more focused on the individual. Thus the difficultly of making the mesh - to justify you have to assime that everybody who doesn't want to do this is egotistic and self-absorbed.

I never assumed that, I just said "Overemphasizing the individual leads to egotistic self-absorbed "I'm doing work on myself" pseudo-enlightenment which works within a bubble cut off from other people."
The specific discourse (this thread) I think is coming from the position where the individual and the collective are both called into question, although we have drifted a bit far from the topic.

So to maybe try and shift direction, I ask again, anyone who is into Reich, what do you think about the Mass Psychology of Fascism and the link between character structure on one hand and political beliefs and activity on the other?
 
 
Bruno
13:47 / 27.04.06
Right now I am typing on a keyboard on a laptop computer which 'belongs to me', I own it, it is mine. Apparently there is some intangible connection between me and it, which almost everyone believes in. Because I own it, if someone takes it they will be imprisoned by people whose work it is to defend this idea of property.
I am at the library, there are lots of books here which belong to the library, which is an abstract entity larger than the physical space it occupies, it too can also own things. The library is built on land, which used to be wild but then someone made a map and drew lines on it, measuring it and calculating its value, deciding that people and entities can also 'own' land.
All material conditions can be analyzed in these terms, and although it is not nice to think in these terms, they are basic to how your social-physical environment is functioning. Welcome to capitalism, quantify. I 'own' this thing. It's an imaginary relationship between me and the thing. It's like a spell cast over everything. Marx is a magical attempt to write the spell out of existence.

Has anyone read 'The Dispossessed' by Ursula LeGuin?
 
 
EvskiG
14:12 / 27.04.06
Fabian raises a very good point. In western society, people are under an interesting spell in which they see money (and wealth) as THINGS rather than relations.

For example, when people claim to own money, all they are asserting is that as part of a consensual agreement others will agree to grant them goods or services -- regardless of whether they have done anything to "earn" or otherwise warrant such goods or services. When people claim to own land, or a computer, or a toothbrush, all they are asserting is "if you try to take this thing I have claimed from me, I -- or some entity that claims authority -- will resist or retaliate."

What Marx did was try to break that spell by pointing out that the rules governing money and wealth in a capitalist society -- or any other society -- are not ordained by God or nature, but are merely a consensual social agreement, and can be replaced by another agreement if enough people decide to do so (and if the (likely fierce) resistance to the change can be overcome). And that some agreements would be better for most people, and society as a whole, than the present one.
 
 
Quantum
14:37 / 27.04.06
Marx is a magical attempt to write the spell out of existence.

By who? By Marx? Does your research indicate he considered himself a magician, mystic or occultist? You could as easily say he was the Pope of the church of Communism, that the manifesto is the bible and he was the anti-capitalist messiah. But it wouldn't be literally true, would it? He wasn't ACTUALLY a priest, and he wasn't ACTUALLY a magician. It's a metaphor.

You can be a socialist and magician, even develop a Marxist magical system, fair enough, but the man himself wasn't a magician (in the normal sense) unless you count all influential thinkers ever as magicians too, which makes nonsense of the term. Was Liebniz a magician? Popper?
 
 
EvskiG
15:08 / 27.04.06
I'd certainly say that those people were magicians, although nowhere as influential as Marx.

Anyone who makes a substantial part of humanity live in a new "reality tunnel" is a pretty damned good magician, whether it's the Buddha, Paul, Martin Luther, Galileo, Hitler, The Beatles, or Karl Rove.
 
 
Quantum
16:19 / 27.04.06
So Einstein was a magician? Watson and Cricke, Buckminster Fuller, Capra, Stephen Hawking? I'd call that a radical interpretation of the word.
 
 
EvskiG
16:42 / 27.04.06
I don't think it's that radical.

In Magick in Theory and Practice, Crowley essentially deems Paracelsus, Newton, Berkeley, Loyola, and many others to be Adepti Exemptus because they founded influential schools of thought. He also recognized Pasteur, for example, as a powerful magician:

"A body of black magicians under Anna Kingsford once attempted to kill a vivisector who was not particularly well known; and they succeeded in making him seriously ill. But in attempting the same thing with Pasteur they produced no effect whatever, because Pasteur was a great genius --- an adept in his own line far greater than she in hers --- and because millions of people were daily blessing him."

Remember, Crowley defined magic as the science and art of causing change in accordance with will. It seems to me that most if not all of the influential thinkers we've been discussing have done exactly that -- and often succeeded beyond their wildest dreams in making the rest of the world accept those changes as reality.
 
 
Quantum
18:05 / 27.04.06
So, when I scratch my arse*, that's magic and I'm a magician- sweet, I'll throw my wand away.

*Change in accordance with my Will
 
 
EvskiG
18:33 / 27.04.06
As Crowley said, every intentional act is a magical act.

If the height of your magical ambition is scratching your ass, go for it.
 
 
Quantum
18:43 / 27.04.06
Every intentional act is a magical act? You're sure about that? You think Crowley's definition of magic is complete, comprehensive, and universally applicable?

I disagree with Crowley. Not every intentional act is a magical act. Scratching my arse is not the height of my magical ambition, it's a mundane act.
 
 
Quantum
18:54 / 27.04.06
Magic 'supernatural occurrences or feats.'
Supernatural 'Something that is not of the usual. Something that is somehow not natural, or has been altered by forces that are not understood fully if at all. '
wiktionary

Is my arse supernatural? Not today and hopefully never. Is my scratching it an act of magic? Of course it isn't.
 
 
EvskiG
18:56 / 27.04.06
Am I SURE about that?

I'm not sure that I'm sure about anything.

I'm certainly not sure that any definition, theory, or system of thought is "complete, comprehensive, and universally applicable."

I'm just observing that there's a reasonably well-established view in magic that one doesn't have to be an incense-and-incantation kind of person to be deemed a magician.

I happen to agree with that view, and apparently you don't.
 
 
*
19:04 / 27.04.06
For example, when people claim to own money, all they are asserting is that as part of a consensual agreement others will agree to grant them goods or services

I don't think it's precisely consensual; I think it's enforced by a power structure in which people participate with varying degrees of agency. Between myself and the individual who makes an object and gives it to me in exchange for the symbols of the agreement, it's pretty highly consensual— I wasn't compelled to want the object, and ze wasn't compelled to give it to me, and we could have negotiated a different amount. Between myself and my landlord, however, even though I live in a co-op, the agreement is less consensual; I NEED a place to live, and I pretty much NEED this one. My landlord, the USCA, does not need me— they have other students eager to fill my spot if I refuse this particular agreement.

In the wider sense, I can choose not to believe in money and refuse the very agreement itself, but the system will punish me for it. That's not consensuality if the power dynamic is imposed on me. (And none of this "The slaves make the slavery;" what about the masters making slavery? Acknowledging that I have some agency and therefore some responsibility doesn't make me solely responsible for my own oppression— and saying that all the power is mine does not make it so.)

As to whether or not this is magic, I'm not sure whether an understanding of it as magic is useful for helping people live with or escape this system. By magic, we can redefine magic to include or exclude it, according to our Will, but what does this actually accomplish? Does it make banishing the system, beating the system, or just coping with the system easier for the people who are suffering under it? The main thing that I see it doing is making a different avenue of "fighting" the system available— one which offers more gratification for an unknown quantity of effectiveness, which I am concerned may encourage people to abandon very necessary forms of resistance in exchange for wanking into a silver cup.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:04 / 27.04.06
I'm completely in agreement with the idea that one can be a magician sans incense, sans ritual, sans funny hats, sans everything but a will-ful drive to stick one's thumb on the scales of reality. However if the height of your magical ambition is scratching your ass, you're a bit of a prune. (And personally after much fucking about I find the incense helps. YMMV. Wouldn't know about the hats.)
 
  

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