BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Sheeple and scum and humatons, oh my!

 
  

Page: 123(4)56

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:49 / 13.04.06
Why does there have to be an either/or?
 
 
Sam T.
12:23 / 13.04.06
From what I've read in this disreputable source of mine, not only is the HIV test included in some package, it is mandatory to do one in site before being allowed to enter.

A really good idea, and one which seems to be draining its fair share of money. Just look at the quality of the facilities they are building (Osho Auditorium, in the menu on the left).

Getting both laid and enlightened for a few rupies, how can you beat that? And if you are young, we have special discounts!

Imagine the attraction this can exerce on the average humaton. Let's face it, Quantum, how many people that really needed it were attending your meditation classes? As little as mine, I'm afraid.

And what is, alas, the likely outcome, when our beloved common shepple is looking for spiritual nourishment? Dianetics? Jehovah Witness?

Ain't the Osho Center:

a) Much more attractive than the alternative.

b) Way less dangerous.

Sure, some will come only to score. But they will need to adapt, and at least do some of the classes, if they want to hook up with that cutie in the orange sari. And it is likely that the gals in there will be attracted mainly by the spiritual side of the thing.

What best incentive is there to get enlightened?

(Tongue in cheek? I'm not even sure myself. I think we are looking at the prototype of the sect of the 21st century, and that it beats the crap out of the rest.

Also, read some Osho. I seems to me that the guy makes sense, mostly.)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:33 / 13.04.06
Sure, some will come only to score. But they will need to adapt, and at least do some of the classes, if they want to hook up with that cutie in the orange sari. And it is likely that the gals in there will be attracted mainly by the spiritual side of the thing.

I'm struggling. I really am.
 
 
Quantum
12:34 / 13.04.06
I think we are looking at the prototype of the sect of the 21st century

I think the Abbey of Thelema was the twentieth century, and didn't some people try free love communes in the 1960s, and wasn't there some guy and his followers in a compound (Jim Jones or Waco take your pick) so I don't think it's necessarily that new an idea.

Osho is alright but I find his stuff a little bit Celestine Prophecies, and I don't like his Osho Zen Tarot either, but that's just a personal bias, I certainly wouldn't condemn his work.

Mordant- In My Mind, meditation is introspective, and sex is pretty much extrospective (is that even a word?) because there's someone else involved. Sex magic huzzah, but I would find it distracting while meditating. Hard for me to attain no-mind when I'm straddled by a sexy naked person, I am weak of will.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:36 / 13.04.06
Wait, so you get an HIV test included in the welcome pack?

If you're HIV-positive, you won't be allowed into any Osho centre. Osho believed that anyone who was HIV-positive should be quarantined away from the general population. He also thought that AIDS could be spread through kissing, shaking hands, etc.

Here's one article by Osho where he gives his views on AIDS

I'd recommend Timothy Guest's My Life in Orange - an autobiographical account of a man spent his childhood in various Osho "communes".
 
 
Quantum
12:39 / 13.04.06
Gypsy, take this red pill and you won't have to struggle to understand because it will make you l33t and free you from your conceptual prison.

Or perhaps that's not what you meant? Mayhap a thread on sex in magic groups is in order?
 
 
Quantum
12:42 / 13.04.06
Thank you Trouserian, I am now reconsidering this part of my last post- "I certainly wouldn't condemn his work."
 
 
Sam T.
12:44 / 13.04.06
Sure, some will come only to score. But they will need to adapt, and at least do some of the classes, if they want to hook up with that cutie in the orange sari. And it is likely that the gals in there will be attracted mainly by the spiritual side of the thing.

I'm struggling. I really am.


That was 90% tongue in cheek. What I really think, is that if people want to hook up, there are a lot of more traditional, easier ways to do that.
 
 
Sam T.
12:49 / 13.04.06
If you're HIV-positive, you won't be allowed into any Osho centre. Osho believed that anyone who was HIV-positive should be quarantined away from the general population. He also thought that AIDS could be spread through kissing, shaking hands, etc.

Didn't knew that. I was thinking this was a kind of marketing ploy. You know, 'You'll score, and you won't need a condom'.

Suddenly, this whole affair feels less tickling to my french sensibility.
 
 
Sam T.
13:07 / 13.04.06
I think the Abbey of Thelema was the twentieth century, and didn't some people try free love communes in the 1960s, and wasn't there some guy and his followers in a compound (Jim Jones or Waco take your pick) so I don't think it's necessarily that new an idea.

%I'll pick Waco anytime, at least you got your V4V moment before snuffing it%

Sure, the idea isn't new. %But with the Osho center it now has got that consumerist twist in it that makes it irresistible in our present age.% Although after reading Trousers link, I'm not so sure anymore that it is such a fun house in there.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:07 / 13.04.06
Quants--I was mostly just being flippant.
 
 
Sam T.
13:52 / 13.04.06
Good news people! AIDS is a psychosomatic disease! If you have the will to live, you WON'T get it! I paste...

First, the roots of the problem:

"Man is becoming mature, aware that he has been cheated by the priests, by the parents, by the politicians, by the pedagogues. He has been simply cheated by everybody, and they have been feeding him on false hopes. The day he matures and realizes this, the desire to live falls apart. And the first thing wounded by it will be your sexuality. To me that is AIDS." - Osho

Then, how can you fight it? Easy!

"It does not matter whether you are painting or sculpting, or you are serving a dying human being -- it does not matter what you are doing, what matters is: Are you totally involved in the herenow? If you are involved in the herenow you are completely out of the area where infection is possible. When you are so much involved, your life becomes such a torrential force." - Osho

"Only meditation can release your energy herenow." - Osho

This don't match with believing that you can catch AIDS by kissing. I don't understand either how you can forbid people with AIDS to get into your center, they surely needs it.

Also, if you manage to get them back in the herenow with meditation, they should get cured or at least better.

A lot of things don't add up.
 
 
Quantum
14:25 / 13.04.06
I was mostly just being flippant.

No, Darque Heart, you were mostly crushing my delicate feelings beneath your boots of scorn. Barbelith is so mean, why can't we all just get along like those bears? They never used sarcasm, and look what happened to them.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:40 / 13.04.06
Didn't knew that. I was thinking this was a kind of marketing ploy. You know, 'You'll score, and you won't need a condom'.

If that's what you're after you'll find that commercial sex-workers in most large Indian cities can be found who will oblige you, as many of them are more concerned with being able to afford their next meal than the longer-term danger of AIDS or simply aren't aware of the dangers of unsafe sex due to lack of education.
 
 
Sam T.
15:14 / 13.04.06
If that's what you're after you'll find that commercial sex-workers in most large Indian cities can be found who will oblige you.

Whut? And get AIDS myself? No, thanks.

Never understood those who had unprotected relations with a prostitute. Never paid a girl to have sex, for that matter. I think I wouldn't be able...

No, the beauty of the thing was to imagine an AIDS free area where people would joyously partake of love and enlightenment. %Which is certainly a bit sad for people who have AIDS, but we could do special Thursdays for them%.

Ah, you know me.

As many of them are more concerned with being able to afford their next meal than the longer-term danger of AIDS or simply aren't aware of the dangers of unsafe sex due to lack of education

Looks like to me that this sums up the life of nearly everybody in India. Just replace 'AIDS' with anything from 'Asbestos' to 'Zoonoses'.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:16 / 13.04.06
Good grief. I had just worked myself down from HULK SMASH mode after the condoms-and-scoring post, and now this. I may actually explode.

Tempest, WTF is wrong with you? You need to come up with something a bit more self-aware than 'you know me'.
 
 
Sam T.
18:48 / 13.04.06
Been PM'ing like mad to try to understood what happened.

So here are a few things. First of all, if it wasn't already clear to everyone, I'm french, and english is a 2nd language. I don't think this is the problem here, but you never know.

Second, I've been told that my last comment was reeking of western sex tourism.

I'll be totally frank on this one. I've never, ever been with a prostitute in my whole life, and feel like I would be totally unable to, because even if it's only a sexual affair, I need something passing between a partner and me to be turned on.

Now I'm not saying that the idea of going to see a hooker doesn't turn me on, and I've been giving money to some girlfriends as a game in the past.

Now that you know more than you would have wanted about my sex life, I must add that the exploitation of men (or women) by men has never ceased to enrage me, but that after a while in this life, you find yourself adopting a point of view which would make the upsetting a bit more bearable. I've got cynicism. And I'm fighting it, because if you let it run too much, it will freeze your heart. At the same time, it's a relief. You just can't function all the time winded up.

Now, I'm aware of the situation in India, there is real misery. France was recently sending an used war ship full of asbestos to be taken apart over there. Because it is cheaper. Mainly, of course, because close to no protection towards this dangerous material was offered to the indian workers. After a run of some coincidental juridical bad luck, the ship never arrived in India and had to come back to France.

You know what I did read in the papers after that? That Indian workers were upset because they were counting on that job to get some money. This, happens all the time. I think there is nothing to say except that, as you all know, we are living in a pretty much fucked up world. And the worse part is that I'm slowly getting used to it.

I damn hope that all the bastards that exploit human misery with their dick come back home with a nice little souvenir, though, and that was the meaning implicit in the above post.

There, I'm angry again.

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:05 / 13.04.06
I damn hope that all the bastards that exploit human misery with their dick come back home with a nice little souvenir, though, and that was the meaning implicit in the above post.

Probably not as implicit as you think, I'm guessing.

Looks like to me that this sums up the life of nearly everybody in India.

What, poorly educated, poverty stricken and struggling to survive? I'm sort of doubting this is the case.

Please bear in mind that this criticism isn't personal. Barbelith is sensitive about these things.
 
 
Sam T.
19:58 / 13.04.06
Probably not as implicit as you think, I'm guessing.

Obviously.

Looks like to me that this sums up the life of nearly everybody in India.

What, poorly educated, poverty stricken and struggling to survive? I'm sort of doubting this is the case.


Really? Ok, I've looked it up, and about 40% of the population is under the poverty line. Same thing for illiteracy.

Please bear in mind that this criticism isn't personal. Barbelith is sensitive about these things.

No prob. I'll try to refrain from over-generalizing from now on.
 
 
penitentvandal
20:10 / 13.04.06
If about 40% of the population is below the poverty line, doesn't that mean that about 60% of the population is above it? Or, to put it another way, that most of the population of India is not actually scrabbling around to make ends meet?

Not that that makes it any worse for the 40% who are, like, but.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:20 / 13.04.06
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "What? And get AIDS myself" definitely in "banging the locals makes your cock drop off" territory?
 
 
Sam T.
20:54 / 13.04.06
Or, to put it another way, that most of the population of India is not actually scrabbling around to make ends meet?

God. yes, that's what I meant when I said I'll refrain from over generalizing from now on. I've reread myself, and it's not clear, sorry, bad editing.

(Will this ever stop?)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:09 / 13.04.06
Sam, I'm afraid you're just going to have to weather the storm. You've dropped a fairly big clanger and now you're going to have to do a bit of damage control. Keep your cool, be honest, and be prepared to take on board what people are telling you. You'll do alright.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:13 / 13.04.06
NB: "English is not my first language" has limited mileage as a defence around these parts when coming from someone who seems to be expressing hirself pretty fluently. So's you know.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
21:13 / 13.04.06
(Will this ever stop?)

I should've said: Barbelith is very sensitive about things like this, and generally does not accept "but you know what I was getting at" as any sort of feasable defense.

But, since you've apologized and stated that you intend to avoid the sort of generalizations that have raised some eyebrows, things ought to clear up (I hope).

It's just that, y'know, ugly things have happened in Barbelith's past and they sometimes started out just like this. So if you're feeling a bit hassled, no worries; just keep yer nose clean.
 
 
Sam T.
21:28 / 13.04.06
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "What? And get AIDS myself" definitely in "banging the locals makes your cock drop off" territory?

I have this slow sinking feeling that the more I'll explain... And I'm not even sure of what you mean there, it could just be an humorous aside. Anyway, I'll try.

1) I'm not talking about the obvious exploitation of the poor women here, and I'm also not talking about the fact that she has no other choice but to catch AIDS to survive. I think everybody agree on the inhumanity of the situation. I didn't talk about it, because trousers spelt it out explicitly. This was implicit when I said 'What? and get AIDS?'. At least I thought it was. But after all, you never know who you'll met on the internet, maybe I could hold the opinion that the life of the locals don't matter, etc... But i've already showed you my current degree of outrage, or its lack thereof, in fact it depends, in my above post.

2) I have always been of the opinion that you have to be one of the stupidest person in the world to want to shag any prostitute without a condom. Period. Try to guess why.

This doesn't seems to be obvious to the many people that are still doing it. Why it is so is beyond me.

3) I expressed weakly all those implicit feelings of mine in the short answer that started it all. Didn't think it would be pounded upon this way. Didn't expect any kind of reaction to that. My bad. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Keep it coming, I'm starting to kind of like it after all



(%I'm still interested in reactions to my grand idea of a revolutionary new way to envision enlightenment centers that would drag our friends the humatons to unwilling elevation of consciousness by baiting them with free, AIDSless sex%)
 
 
Evil Scientist
22:28 / 13.04.06
(%I'm still interested in reactions to my grand idea of a revolutionary new way to envision enlightenment centers that would drag our friends the humatons to unwilling elevation of consciousness by baiting them with free, AIDSless sex%)

It's rubbish.

...


...

To expand. It's not a grand idea, and it's certainly not a new idea. Using people as sexual bait to lure other people into belief systems is an age-old and ethically vicious way of introducing people into your way of thinking. It's prostitution, clear and simple.

AIDS-less sex orgies to recruit humanatons? Darwin wept!

Here's a suggestion. Stop underestimating people you consider to be humanatons. If your belief system is valid then it doesn't need to buy converts with sex.

Sorry if I seem a trifle snippy Sam, but your arguments really poke a sharp stick into my angry centres.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:47 / 13.04.06
Ah, you know me.

Remarkably well already, I feel.
 
 
petunia
01:21 / 14.04.06
Osho is indeed a strange one.

Though i feel a lot of the controversy surrounding him seems (imho) to be caused in part by the workings of the people who carry on his 'legacy'.

I went to the Osho 'Club MEDitation' (Geddit!?!?!) resort last year with a friend who knew Osho well, which made for an interesting angle on the whole thing.

As my friend tells the story - Osho was very interested in AIDS and the effect it would have on society from very early on. He was one of the first to say that it would become a massive problem, before anybody was really taking it to be a serious disease at all. He made sure to keep himself informed with all of the developments and scientific research as it happened.

Osho is well known as 'the sex guru' - many of his therapies and meditations would involve confrontation with sex(uality) and nudity, along with frequent orgies happening around his ashram. The idea being that, by allowing one's sexual desires to fully manifest, you will be able to move past them and into meditation - similar to his other cathartic 'active meditations'.

So with all the shagging and free love going on around his ashram, he obviously became somewhat worried for his sannyasins (his name for his disciples/converts/sex toys depending on how you see it..) and started to try to try to make them aware of the dangers of AIDS and HIV.

As early information on HIV/AIDS was rather sketchy, to say the least, a lot of the earlier measures Osho made and the things he says seem pretty.. backward - transmition through holding hands and kissing etc. The advice he gave changed from day to day, as information became more available. He started to tell people to use condoms, and started to teach that a monogamous relationship may be preferable to the free love he had previously advocated.

However, Osho's sannyasins payed little attention to his warnings. A lot of them were of the impression that as they were 'teh spiritual choesn ones!!', normal material disease would not affect them ("i can't get AIDS - i have really good karma, man!"). So to make them listen up, Osho made a rule that people would have to have an HIV test to enter his ashram. The (intended) effect of this was that the sannyasins would actually rubber up and start to practice safe sex in order to be able to go do their ashram thing.

Soon after the HIV tests were started, Osho died. With his death, Osho's rules (which were progressive and changing) became fixed and the HIV test remains to this day. Bizarrely, the test is rather ineffective at making sure those in the ashram are HIV/AIDS-free, as it takes around 3 months for the virus to show up in testing after you contract it (or so i hear).

So that's the story of the HIV test...

The ashram is kind of a cool place to be. It definitely has an energy to it, and it's a lovely oasis of plants, trees and marble buildings in the middle of mad, dusty Pune. The people who run it are often volunteers who vary in scaryness and intelligence. You can tell a lot of the people who are telling you how to do the various meditations have probably never meditated before, but that's no biggy.

There has apparently been a strange drive by 'those in charge' over the years to get rid of Osho's presence from the ashram. There was only one photo of the guy up in the whole place, and i think that was in the book store. He made a promise that all of his books in their original versions would always be available in a library at his ashram - he was very aware of what people will do after a 'master' has died and tried his best to avoid a religion forming around him. The library was shut 'for maintenance' a few years ago and while i was visiting last year, they had a book sale of 'bargain old osho books'...

The whole place is paid-entry nowadays and there isnt any element of a commune to it anymore. Think more 'Centre Parks' with a slight twist on meditation. But apparently it is still renowned as a place to go pull...

As for the AIDS article Trouser links...
I don't know. I'd like to read it as a metaphor - Osho using AIDS as a metaphor for humanity's loss of will to live. Perhaps he is trying to say that those who don't take care for their own personal wellbeing and leave themselves at risk through unprotected sex do so out of a loss of will to live - similar to the Nietzschean idea of decadence caused by a lack of will for life.

"Remember perfectly well that I am not a medical man, and whatever I am saying is from a totally different point of view. "
Perhaps he isn't trying to say that the actual AIDS virus itself is psychosomatic, but is trying to give an explanation for why AIDS poses such a threat to humanity - that we are 'decadent' and many of us have lost our will to live, which leads us to leave ourselves open to the spread of AIDS.

But this isn't too clear, and if it is what he is trying to say, he's not really helping the situation of his sannyasins (or anybody else) assuming they are safe because they have good karma...

It's worth bearing in mind that the article almost definitely wasn't a one-off peice by osho. He tended to give speeches that lasted up to 4 hours and would broach many topics. This article will have been edited from one of such speeches and so may (or may not) be taken out of context to suit the needs of the Osho company (tm).

Dunno.. Just a different angle on things i suppose...
 
 
petunia
01:33 / 14.04.06
Quantum-
"I didn't realise the transition from mind to no-mind demanded prolonged fucking"

What about Tantra, and all those lovely Taoist sexual practices i've heard so much about but know so little?

Surely these count as sexual meditation?

Aren't there countless ways to get to no-mind? Ballet, singing, running, dancing, fucking, spinning...

It don't matter what river you take, as long as you get to the sea...

And surely there is no 'transition' from mind to no-mind?

:-)
 
 
petunia
02:39 / 14.04.06
Dammit. that was meant to read

<pseudomystical>"And surely there is no 'transition' from mind to no-mind? <pseudomystical>

hmmm. seemed funnier at the time..
 
 
illmatic
06:59 / 14.04.06
This thread is more out of control than a angry greased pig.

Don't know if that's bad or good...

I'd like to read it as a metaphor

Osho may have written some nice works on mysticism and religion but the internal politics and "guru" cult in operation at his centres got completely out of hand. I'm not surprised in the least he wrote some terrible things about AIDS. This is what happens when several hundred thousand people surrender their responsibilty to you, and tell you you're enlightened. After a while you start to believe it. The whole thing fell apart in a massive corruption scandal with his number 2 absconding with millions, IIRC. Ashrams etc still going to a degree, I think.

Second T's suggestion of Tim Guest's book.
 
 
illmatic
09:10 / 14.04.06
Note to self: read entirety of other peoples post before posting.
 
 
petunia
15:44 / 14.04.06
Teehee!

Angry Greased Pig!

To poke the pig a little in the right direction again, it's worth mentioning that the large part of (if not, all) of the efforts of those who see themselves as 'awake', or whatever metaphor they choose to use, tend to simply fuel a new 'flock of sheep' (no, i don't like the 'sheeple' tag either, but it's a simpler metaphor to write than 'those who unquestioningly follow certain devices of belief, (mis)perception and law') who act like they're somehow different and special.

I suppose that's what this thread was getting at anyway.

Whether or not the guru in question is actually 'awake' or 'enlightened' or just a well-meaning teacher, or even a nasty nasty person who gets their kicks from telling people what to think; it all seems a little irrelevant when we see that each brand of guru has a gaggle of unthinkers following them.

It seems to depend on personal opinion whether or not this voids the message the specific guru was trying to convey . I find that a lot of the messages That Jesus Bloke tried to teach ring true and have a lot of depth and sympathy for human beings and Life as a whole: I'm not sure i can say the same for a lot of his 'followers'. The same goes for Osho in my mind - He was an intelligent and forthright speaker on many issues and seemed to hit the mark a lot more often than he missed. But some of his followers tried to poison the local townspeople...

But what's the lesson?

We gotta work that one out for ourselves ;-)
 
 
illmatic
16:07 / 14.04.06
it's worth mentioning that the large part of (if not, all) of the efforts of those who see themselves as 'awake', or whatever metaphor they choose to use, tend to simply fuel a new 'flock of sheep'

Very true. With the best teachers I've met, they seem to want to give up the "teacher" mantle, and aren't into being an authority figure as part of the "trip", tempting though it must be to one's ego. They seem to respond to efforts of "transference" or projection either with embarassment or a shrug of the shoulders. It seems to have got out of control for Osho, and Crowley's another one that springs to mind. Though lets not start talking about Thelema as well, or the greased pig will run amuck again and smash up the funfair.
 
  

Page: 123(4)56

 
  
Add Your Reply