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We need more conservatives

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Regrettable Juvenilia

13:38 / 22.03.06

The fact that Barbelith is not really a place where one has a great deal of political diversity is, in that sense, a shame. On the other hand, it is clearly an attraction for many of us who like to talk with people who have similar outlooks. It isn't an easy balance, but I do wish we had more intelligent dissenters at times. Just to keep us honest.

We have plenty of intelligent dissenters - they just tend to come from a different end of the political spectrum from these always hypothetical super-smart ultra-conservatives or reasonable far-righters.

13:51 / 22.03.06

I'm not talking about people on the "far" right or ultra conservatives, Flyboy - the talk of wanting more fascists here is just silly. But the fact that we can question whether there can be intelligent criticism and opinion from the right is a tellingly bad sign.

(ok, I know that the left/right distinction is a problem, as ably pointed out by Mister Disco and Q...but you know what I mean)

13:54 / 22.03.06

I can see something in Mister Disco's suggestion here in the 'Conservative/Liberal psychology' thread that political "right" and "left" are dead and that the meaning of most other labels for political persuasions is so heavily context-dependent as to be of questionable use in generalised terms.

However we seem to be able to recognise 'far-right' and other forms of hate speech fairly well - perhaps just because they fall into the category of hate-speech?

Is there already a better way to describe kinds of political thought in relation to each other, apart from a spectrum? Is it useful to have a spectrum or map for political opinion at all? (Who has done research into correlations between different kinds of beliefs recently?)

14:19 / 22.03.06

Well, if there is a political rubic, the concept of 'honesty' would be a great addition to it!

For that matter, so would 'chill' -- as in 'the fuck out'. This polarization into two violently opposing camps stuff is really annoying.

14:22 / 22.03.06

Mother Superior, you're not being flamed (compare with the holocaust denier Zoemancer) and it's not because you're new. Unlucky timing is all. I don't think we need to balance our posters one way or another, let's just keep talking and see who joins in. There seem to be regular accusations of Barbelith as a left/liberal/PC tyrrany, or politically slanted one way or another- I don't see it myself.

14:36 / 22.03.06

This polarization into two violently opposing camps stuff is really annoying.

Absolutely.

What I find the most tedious is that after a while you can see the patterns that occur during such debates, especially online. One person makes a statement, and there is a set response from the opposing side - usually one sourced from Fox or other media outlets. In the end nothing seems to go anywhere, and there's no real debate per-se. I've never seen anyone change their minds in a heated debate, either. It's too much like losing.

It gets to the point where you could draw a flowchart mapping out how one side's points would be made against the other's that would be accurate 95% of the time. I've actually contemplated making this.

14:51 / 22.03.06

Do it!

16:29 / 22.03.06

Even if we accept that there is a certain homogeneity of opinion on Barbelith, what of it? Surely that very homogeneity is a triumph of the free market principle at work in the marketplace of ideas.

People gravitate towards the 'lith, and support it, because they like what they find here. It is what it is because that's how the membership have made it.

Are you suggesting that we institute some kind of quota system, in the name of diversity? That's not a particularly conservative position, is it?

That argument would hold water if Barbelith was a forum open to all. However, it isn't, and its amissions system is based upon invitations, with people for the most part, inviting friends, who, a good amount of the time, share ideological characteristics with the friend who invited them. Thus, if 'lith started with a predominanatly liberal group of posters, then its poster community would artificially expand in the liberal direction.

All I'm saying is that if you can defend your opinions in front of an intelligent opponent, it is likely your understanding of your own position will benefit. At least that is true in my experience.

thank you. That is exactally what I've been trying to say

MS: Do you personally identify as conservative? Why have you chosen that identification? How do you behave in accordance with that identification?

The point is, that I personally don't identify as a conservative. Within the liberal/conservative framework, I fall quite far to the left. I was just commenting on the fact that I percieved a need for the increased debate that comes from ideological diversity in a community.

16:36 / 22.03.06

However, it isn't, and its amissions system is based upon invitations, with people for the most part, inviting friends, who, a good amount of the time, share ideological characteristics with the friend who invited them. Thus, if 'lith started with a predominanatly liberal group of posters, then its poster community would artificially expand in the liberal direction.

Unfortunately, the admissions department isn't 100% invitation, so that rebuttal holds no water. How in the world did zoemancer get past this moat, then?

I was not invited at all to join. I begged and pleaded. In fact, I saved a draft of my request. No where in my essay is my political allegiance stated. I could have been a Holocaust denier, or a "conservative," or a "Tory," or even the Bearded Bard himself, and I would've got in.

And by the way, it wouldn't be an "artificial" expansion in the liberal direction. It would be exactly organic, like a virus. Your proposal to add more "conservatives" is the epitome of artificial.

16:38 / 22.03.06

"liberal direction"

?

I can understand that you feel you're not sitting at the cool kids table at lunch, but all schoolkid analogies aside, can you tell me what you mean by "liberal direction"? Is there an agenda, with defined means and a definite end, as you see it?

PLEASE. If you desire change, you have to be willing to contribute. Otherwise, you'll get thrown into Jack Fear's whiny nursery.

16:58 / 22.03.06

I percieved a need for the increased debate that comes from ideological diversity in a community.

Or, as Popeye's pal Wimpy used to say, "Let's you and him fight."

ONLY NICE THINGS

17:10 / 22.03.06

I can see his argument, although after a page of me-the-victim it's a little blunted. However, Barbelith isn't based on invitation - the vast majority of applications are from people who have come to it through googling the Invisibles or Chaos Magic. Hence Zoemancer. The applications process is currently mainly about ensuring that people exist and are not sock puppets or marketing bots, which is largely but not totally successful. We may have to revisit this in future.

17:46 / 22.03.06

Perhaps we could bolster Barbelith's entry process with some sort of Kinseyesque 6-point scale of Conservatism/Liberalism (since those are, obviously, the only poles around which one's worldview can conceivably be based)? Those from outside the US might require a little adjustment to fit the terms, but hey ho.

18:57 / 22.03.06

I really like Dr. Argentum's flowchart idea. I feverishly imagine printing the beast out onto fliers, which I could then hand out without a word when people start getting into those sorts of political 'discussions' that end in everyone entrenching themselves in the same holes further.

Once the retreads have been pointed out, perhaps folks can figure out that they're not, in fact, stuck in an old Sierra game with limited conversational trees? This is all, of course, wild hopes and dreams, but I would be thrilled to put some sort of foundation under them and call them a castle. Ehrm. If that makes sense.

20:17 / 22.03.06

I really like Dr. Argentum's flowchart idea. I feverishly imagine printing the beast out onto fliers, which I could then hand out without a word when people start getting into those sorts of political 'discussions' that end in everyone entrenching themselves in the same holes further.

In do think it's a good idea, to be honest. And most internet debates are completely predictable so it should be possible.

The best place I can think of for source material is Fark.com

22:37 / 22.03.06

Well, I bit the bullet and started a topic for flowchart creation, because I think it's a damn good idea too.

22:47 / 22.03.06

Within the liberal/conservative framework, I fall quite far to the left.

GRRAAAAAARRRGGGHHHHH!

Disco is My Class War

01:17 / 23.03.06

Perhaps we could bolster Barbelith's entry process with some sort of Kinseyesque 6-point scale of Conservatism/Liberalism (since those are, obviously, the only poles around which one's worldview can conceivably be based)? Those from outside the US might require a little adjustment to fit the terms, but hey ho.

While we're at it, Ganesh, while don't we just kick out all the people from complex non-Western non-English-speaking places where the political definitions aren't the same? You can't have a decent conversation with people like that, they keep side-tracking you with nitpicky arguments about definitions and shit.

At this stage, I would just like more Molotovs.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:10 / 23.03.06

Well, we tried a Holocaust denier... it, er, didn't work out so good.

I can totally see that we have a need of more intelligent and reasoned debate (which is why I like having people like Slim who don't always see eye-to-eye with the consensus in Switchboard- I like being forced to examine my "good" attitudes as well as my "bad" ones without it degenerating into shit-flinging)- doesn't follow that we need fascists. Having read a few other boards recently (notably the Conflict one, though that has an almighty amount of racism, homophobia and misogyny on it- not quite the message I get from Conflict myself, but maybe I'm listening wrong) the tendency seems to be that having fascists on "non-fascist" boards doesn't lead to healthy debate- it leads to a lot of flaming, and the board turning to shit.

A bit like introducing fascists into any other kind of community, really.

12:46 / 23.03.06

I think that there is definitely a common mindset at Barbelith. However, I would characterize it as a progressive one rather than liberal. Perhaps the difference exists only in my mind but I think many posters here are advocates of social change rather than liberal/leftist/communist ideals.

I appreciate your comments, Stoats. I was wondering where this Conflict Board is, I'd like to check it out.

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