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We need more conservatives

 
  

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Triumvir
04:18 / 20.03.06
Barbelith is great, don't get me wrong. Although I haven't been posting a lot since I came here, I've been lurking quite a bit. People are polite, smart, and all around excelent here. However, there's one thing Barbelith needs, and needs a lot of. Conservatives. On the whole, we are an extremely liberal community. We need some hardline conservatives here. Dare I say, even some fascists. Nothing spices up a debate like a fascist. One of the reasons that I dont post a lot here is because posting as a conservative (which i feel I have to to because there are so few of them here) makes me feel sad and tired. For my sake, 'lithers, invite your conservative friends here!
 
 
Joy Division Oven Gloves
05:27 / 20.03.06
What exactly are you looking for here? Jerry Springer? Are threads decending into yet more hilarious slagging matches your idea of debate.

We need some hardline conservatives here. Dare I say, even some fascists. Nothing spices up a debate like a fascist.

Are you still playing the reactionary? If it's tiring why not just stop? If you want to talk to fascists why not look up your nearest neo-nazi group and go and have a little chat. See how entertaining it is.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:51 / 20.03.06
MotherSuperior For my sake, 'lithers, invite your conservative friends here!

Or instead you could, you know, leave? So you've posted 18 other times and now you feel tired?
 
 
Ganesh
06:00 / 20.03.06
Or you could make the brave attempt to view the world outwith a faintly US-centric - and somewhat contrived - bipolar framework.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
06:00 / 20.03.06
I can see the point MotherSuperior(Jumped the Gun) is trying to make, although I don't think we need Fascists here just yet. Posting on the 'lith can sometimes feel like preaching to the converted, so perhaps a few opinions from the right might help to stimulate livelier debate...?
 
 
illmatic
06:04 / 20.03.06
Judging by the amount of resistance there's been to some of the ideas put forward in the "Feminism 101" thread, I don't think Barbelith needs more conservatives ...
 
 
Ganesh
06:07 / 20.03.06
Yeah, perhaps if someone could set out a working definition of things like "conservatives" and "the right", we might be amaaazed to find Barbelith hardly the "liberal" utopia it's painted as here.
 
 
Jub
07:23 / 20.03.06
MS - why do you think we need more conservatives?
 
 
Loomis
07:27 / 20.03.06
First Barbelith is full of fascists, then there aren't enough. I can't keep up.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:45 / 20.03.06
Hey, yeah! That's exactly what we need! To thrive, Barbelith needs a rolling programme of bitter acrimony and pointless screaming arguments. Because the pendulum has swung too far, you know? We risk becoming just another outpost of sissified, PC-infested Western culture. Someone has to keep all these strident feminazis and whining homosexualists from cramming their agenda down our throats! It's high time the spoiled softies were FORCED to confront an alternative perspective--for once in their lives!

From today, STORM SAXON IS STRIKING BACK!
 
 
BlueMeanie
08:46 / 20.03.06
I am personally sick and tired of the American-based conservative/liberal slanging match that's infested so much of the internet (such as the incessant flaming on Fark, for example). It gets really, really tedious and prevents any actual real debate.

I'm glad Barbelith hasn't fallen into such tedium, personally.

(Maybe there's an interesting discussion to be had of how the US political climate affects the rest of the world - I sometimes find myself a little over concerned with their politics, forgetting that the US is in fact a different country and not of any direct relevance to my life, other than via the discussions I may see online.)
 
 
Cat Chant
08:55 / 20.03.06
Nothing spices up a debate like a fascist.

I don't think that's true. I'm trying to think of a context in which it might be true, and I suppose all the contexts are very tightly controlled arenas where a spicy debate is being laid on for a spectator. I suppose you could see a message-board as such an arena, but I don't see Barbelith like that. Other people have posted more eloquently and passionately than me about the real emotional and bodily effects of online debate - here, for instance.

But for me, what the presence of a 'fascist' would do is not spice up debate, but make debate impossible. I value Barbelith as a space which makes certain conversations possible - say, conversations about femme identity, or cultural signifiers and magical practice. I'm not sure I even agree with my own metaphor here, but these conversations seem to rely on and to practice what Bracha Lichtenberg Ettinger calls a matrixial kind of intersubjectivity - where interlocutors are sharing each others' resources and energy (Ettinger's metaphor would be one of pregnancy, the relation to the other that one has in pregnancy - one that does not depend on defending one's integrity against an assault from another, but on an exchange with the other, on an ethical responsibility towards the Other). Spicy, antagonistic, debate is not the only good way to move thought on. In fact, I'd argue it's only a good way to do so for people who are lucky enough to be able to divorce their skill in argumentation from their whole-body/emotive investment in a topic.

I don't think this is very clear, but I need to be somewhere else now, so I'm going to post it anyway - I might be able to post a fined-down and coherent version later.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:07 / 20.03.06
This is something I see quite a lot, this idea that debate isn't really happening unless voices are raised and invective is thrown. To me what MS seems to be saying is that ze would like to see more anger and confrontation on the board, but doesn't want to actually have to deal with that anger and confrontation hirself. Instead, we have to bring in our "conservative friends" who will of course be pleased to engage in a textual slugfest for hir entertainment.

Good grief. It's like those Temple posters who hardly ever contribute anything--until the Temple erupts into one of its perennial ego rucks, at which point they'll wade into the morass of irrelevant, futile and painful accustation and attack that has derailed all meaningful discussion and driven half the posters away, in order to tell us how wonderful it is that there's finally some life in the forum.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:31 / 20.03.06
Hah.

Agreed, essentially. I don't think that Barbelith needs fascists - I don't think fascists add anything of worth to a discussion except noise. In part, this is because modern fascism is usually not practiced by very clever people.

People who do not really understand the concept of a discussion board at either end of the spectrum are generally bad for the quality of Barbelith - at the moment we can see "interventionist" posters - those with no interest in changing their views or interacting with others except in order to express those views - operating from the camps of various ideologies, and the negative effect is in all cases about the same.
 
 
Seth
09:33 / 20.03.06
Come to think of it, we haven't had a decent fight in the Temple for a while. I'll see what I can do...
 
 
sleazenation
09:49 / 20.03.06
So, in brief, what barbelith needs is not more contributions from any particular politcial standpoint. What it needs is more thought-out, clearer and more intellectually vigourous and intellectually honest debate. Kind of what it has always need really.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:52 / 20.03.06
I don't think I've ever seen a decent fight in the Temple.
 
 
Isadore
14:07 / 20.03.06
Sleazenation has it spot on.

Also, political ideology comes in a multi-dimensional spectrum, not a disjunction!
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
14:35 / 20.03.06
In part, this is because modern fascism is usually not practised by very clever people.

Hmm, I think that's complacent and somewhat dangerous. I wish it was the case. But the BNP wouldn't have achieved their current level of relative success if they were led by simpletons.

That aside, the I see two main reasons for not having fascists on Barbelith MS.

Firstly, as has already been noted, you allow fascists in and any notion of Barbelith as a safe space is out of the window. You're letting in a group who aren't just people who disagree with the %PC Hell, liberal authoritarians, Hitler was a socialist you know, yadda yadda yadda% consensus of Barbelith. They're an outright enemy of many people here for both political and personal reasons.

Secondly, any involvement of fascists in a forum will change the nature of that forum to an adversarial one, where the purpose of that forum is to respond to fascists. The nature of fascism, and the need to challenge it at every turn, makes that happen. It can be done well if that's your aim- the now defunct Red Action forum did it reasonably competently. But that is not, and should be not the purpose of Barbelith. So your frankly fucking splendid idea would actually lead to a massive narrowing of debate on Barbelith.

The only benefit I can see is that it would allow the "PC Fascists" brigade to actually see what a fascist really is. But that doesn't outweigh the costs. So you could always just go visit Stormfront for a bit. Let me know how it goes.

On the subject of more mainstream conservatives. I think your problem here is that a combination of a dominant position in geopolitical terms and the knee-jerk anti-intellectualism that can be seen in modern conservative discourse, has led to large swathes of the conservative movement forgetting how to engage effectively in debate. Especially when people use underhand tactics like reading books, using big words, and all that other liberal lefty nonsense.

Not really our problem. And I have trouble feeling ultra sympathetic. I suspect I may just not be a very nice person.

For future reference, when playing "let's you and you fight", it's not normally the done thing to announce that publicly.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:05 / 20.03.06
Hmm, I think that's complacent and somewhat dangerous.

Not really. Organisational intelligence and rhetorical ability aren't really the kind of clever you want to add value to a bulletin board. There's a vast gap between what I think of as "not very clever" and "simpleton". Otherwise, I agree with you entirely.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:56 / 20.03.06
Yeah, perhaps if someone could set out a working definition of things like "conservatives" and "the right", we might be amaaazed to find Barbelith hardly the "liberal" utopia it's painted as here.

Ho ho ho! This is my spessiality. The American political argot has a corrupt understanding of conservatism, and "the right" does not exist. I've been trying to get people to listen to me on this for years and will formalize my terms for you tonight, when I am not at work.
 
 
Ganesh
17:14 / 20.03.06
Cheers. The whole crappy "conservative"/"liberal" supposed dichotomy really pisses me off. I look forward to yer definin', Q.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:25 / 20.03.06
"I love America, apple pie, mom, and all that, my pockets stay fat, so step the fuck back."
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
20:28 / 20.03.06
Not really. Organisational intelligence and rhetorical ability aren't really the kind of clever you want to add value to a bulletin board. There's a vast gap between what I think of as "not very clever" and "simpleton".

I take your point on the BNP. On the whole, their intelligence is largely that of a 'tactical' variety, which doesn't translate into debate.

However, you do also have people like Patrick Harrington in the neofascist movement. I think it's undeniable that Harrington is intelligent, has an excellent grasp of philosophy (he has a degree in the subject) and is able to construct his arguments well, as shown by the writings linked to in the wiki article.

So the question is whether Harrington or someone like him should be welcome on Barbelith. My response (and I suspect we probably agree on this) would be a definite "no". Because, no matter how eloquently it's constructed and debated, the fascist ideology is completely anathema to the Barbelith 'project'.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:14 / 20.03.06
More conserves makes sense. With scones.

More right wing politicos on the Lith would be as welcome as explicit pics of Jeremy Clarkson's underwear. With Jeremy Clarkson wearing it.
 
 
Brigade du jour
23:58 / 20.03.06
Clarkson in pants? I stir ...
 
 
Homeless Halo
00:21 / 21.03.06
Conservatism? In American? *looks*

Sorry, don't see any conservatives.

Although I'd suggest that Dr. Argenteum (sp?) reconsider his/her/nongenderspecifics' position that American politics doesn't directly impact h/h/ns' life because it is not American. Seriously, we might invade your country next. In fact, it is likely.

Seriously though, there are probably more conservatives here than you'd think. I see lots of conservative tendencies already, and I've only been here a couple days.

Nonpolitical, me. However, in times of dire need I've been known to describe meself as Neo-Libertarian, just to watch them all nod as if that explains everything to them.
 
 
matthew.
00:51 / 21.03.06
Neolibertarianism explains the "self-interest" part of the philosophy, which incidentally, combines both conservatism and liberalism into a neat little cocktail of flipflopping. It's a policing government abroad, but a laissez-faire gov't at home? I think not.

Threadrot, aside, I definitely think that conservatives should have their say on Barbelith. I also think liberals should have their say. The only caveat? That both of them allow for adaptation in their worldviews. That both parties realize theirs isn't the only answer.
 
 
Homeless Halo
01:06 / 21.03.06
Your definition perhaps. The majority of self-identifying Libertarians in my circle are little more than anarchists with stylish haircuts.

My Libertarianism tends towards the "individualist anarchist" side of the spectrum, although there are a variety of positions available between any given set of party lines.

The conservatism comes in regards to Govt. spending and foreign policy, which is to say, actual conservatism, entirely unlike the conservatism that actually exists in America today. The Conservatism of penny pinching and international isolationism. The Liberalism comes in the interactions between said Govt. and its constituents and foreign allies and enemies.

The "Neo" part comes in regards to a sort of anti-Nihilism, a reaction against the prevailing bubbleheaded postmodernism of modern American Liberalism.

So, as noted previously, using vague value-laden terms to describe political beliefs is a mistake, most often made by politicians and people wishing to have easy answers to difficult questions.

Perhaps in the future, we could take the time to focus on specifics situations as opposed to broad generalizations made by complete strangers without adequate background information?

just a thought.
 
 
Slim
01:52 / 21.03.06
I would welcome more conservatives to the board with open arms, assuming they would be interested in finding answers and sharing ideas. The bottom line is that every now and then no matter how vigilant like minds are to "step outside the box" in an attempt to bring subtle issues to light, it may take someone already standing outside it to provide a valuable piece of input.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
06:14 / 21.03.06
Spot on, Slim.
 
 
---
06:43 / 21.03.06
We need some hardline conservatives here. Dare I say, even some fascists. Nothing spices up a debate like a fascist.

Classic.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
10:25 / 21.03.06
Goodness gracious, meme! Okay, gather round, children, I'll explain a few things to you.

In our political discourse, terms have come to carry a freight of implication and innuendo that sometimes obscures meaning. That is, most people don't know what the fuck they're talking about. And believe me, it is to the Man's advantage that smart, educated, and financially powerful people--we are the richest general citizenry in the history of the world--should run around spouting horseshit like Neo-Libertarianism, as if it means something. Now, some of my definitions may seem... ideosynchratic. Some people who are heavily invested in identifying as, for instance, I dunno, Welfare Democrats or whatever, have accused me of inventing terms, so I'm forced by convention to admit that there is a certain strain of crankism in my thinking. However, if you follow me closely I think you'll find that I am dealing mostly with horse sense and perspective.

Conservatism and liberalism are not opposing values, no matter what FOX tells you. The opposite of conservatism is progressivism, and in a healthy society you'd want both the conservatives and progressives to be vital forces. Liberalism, the belief in protecting the rights and priviledges of individuals from interference by the state or other individuals, is opposed by authoritarianism. So, in the United States at least, liberals are conservative, since this country is predicated on a liberal document (The US Constitution). Again, a healthy society will have a strong oppositional dynamic between liberalism and authoritarianism.

So much for the poli-sci. A little bit of historical perspective: After the French Revolution, when the (authoritarian) aristocracy was beheaded and all the smart fellows were figuring out how to redistribute the wealth of the Republic, there were two camps, two general ideas about the best way to do it. In one camp they said that the state--that is, a board of smart fellows appointed by the people, which is better than the aristocracy--should decide who gets what. In the other camp, they said that individuals should compete for wealth, and there shouldn't be any state involved. They all met in a big hall to talk about this and for convenience the guys in the first camp would sit on the left side of the room while the guys in the second camp sat on the right. So that's where we get our convention of Left vs Right. Ridiculous, no? Because those fellows couldn't have forseen technological advancements such as the corporate conglomerates that imperil both positions, since, while immensely powerful, they are neither The People nor The State. They wouldn't have expected the modern welfare state. Socialized medicine would've baffled them; they were only beginning to have anything resembling an actual medical profession. So, whichever side of the aisle you sat on, you'd be lost at today's political sea. The important thing to remember is that they were all Liberals. I think it would be a quantum leap forward in the rhetorical arts if we could simply get rid of the whole concept of left vs right and think instead in terms of power and personal liberty. Those French guys, they had just seized all the power and they were making the decisions. I bet if you'd asked some baguette-maker in the street, he'd have told you something different.

Does Candidate A claim he is going to empower me? Does he propose to protect my ability to empower myself? What in his background makes me believe him? Can I trust my own judgement in this matter or is there some emotional factor in play, such as my disgust for abortion or my horror of war? Are my emotional values* more or less important than my financial and political interests? These are the questions a reasonable person will ask, and which you never see anyone ask on television and hardly at all on the internet. Sometimes you can hear them being asked on NPR.

I am getting dangerously Ayn Randian here, but I think that the two biggest threats to this ideal empowered citizen and empowered citizenry, where people are informed and reasonable and have learned from history and all of that, are these sort of twin juggernauts, the radically politicized "church" and the corporation. They're aligned right now, which is why us poor Liberals are in such a fix, but the wheels are starting to come off and I don't know who's going to be more sorry. They have won control over the machines of government but they do not agree and their interests are really only aligned in that the corporatists don't care about abortion and the religionists don't care about the environment. Here is where my train of thought stops, because I dunno, I don't know how that shakes out and how we can protect ourselves. Comments welcome.


*Don't even get me started on values. And by the way, as long as we're doing a footnote, Libertarianism is juvenile bullshit.
 
 
matthew.
12:21 / 21.03.06
Don't even get me started on values. And by the way, as long as we're doing a footnote, Libertarianism is juvenile bullshit.

SNAP! That's a Chuck Norris Footnote if I've ever seen one.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:29 / 21.03.06
Fuck values, don't get me started on Libertarians. They're almost as bad as the Social Darwinists, I tell you.
 
  

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