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My first DMT experience

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10:37 / 14.03.02

Well, monkeyboy, I dont know what to say really. Ican comment that I have a more shamanistic than learyesque view on entheogens. However I can not speak for anyone but myself, cant say why everyone should take our stories with a grain of salt, they are our experience, and we have just described what they did for us. Noone has tried to impose anything on anyone else. All we said is that the experience has changed us, and I didnt know that having a lifechanging spiritual experience was a purely western phenomena?

On the other hand, you didnt make it clear if you had tried this particular plant or if you just compared it to your own experiences with others. However I can add that I have been under the influence of ayahuasca in totally other realms, more traditional shamanic spaces, populated with more archaic entities, a lot more dreamlike and probably significant only to me. But that doesnt make that or the other experiences more or less real, its just two different places. Very different I might add.

And if you read through stories by traditional users, ayahuasca has been used for thousands of years, you will find that a lot of their experiences doesnt differ that much, just the words that they use to describe them, and of course I admit that I am influenced in my way of describing them by my culture.

This hardly matters though, its there for everyone who wants to take a ride there.

13:18 / 14.03.02

Monkey,

If you would be willing to share your own experiences with psychedelics of this level from your perspective and background, I think this would add much to the discussion. Certainly, when dealing with drugs of this nature, one's background will have a tremendous impact on how they interpret the experience. For instance, if one isn't exposed to the idea of geometry and complex information structures, they may interpret the experience in a completely different way, using different models to describe what they see. What was your education prior to taking these drugs, and what sort of experiences did they show you? If you took them now, do you think they might be different?

16:32 / 14.03.02

DogStar, et al.

Apologies if my post seems directed at you in some derisive manner...was not meant to be the case. But I'm in finals week here and rushed my statements a little, on top of which they unflatteringly represent my snarkier side and my directional biases within this area of discussion - precisely because most of the papers I'm writing are about the intellectual appropriation process of colonialism. And as someone born in one colonial context and raised in several others, I tend to take the whole thing far to personally at times...especially when sleep deprived and jiving on caffeine.

Basically, split my last post in two: the first half would be friendly observation about relativism of the language of the hallucigenonic experience, and the philosophical/ontological problem of whether two trippers can actually exchange information, although in retrospect it was certainly not framed as amiable. Dogon say "Nommo," McKenna says "machine elves," but you can never be entirely sure if they're describing the same phenomena because of the overarching similarities or entirely different ones because of the details.

The "high/low" and "expansion" observations I was making was directed specifically at the work of Leary and McKenna, who in fact do make that distinction, rather than your own descriptions. And my problem with those two in particular is the fashion in which they propound their own philosophical systems to their consuming audience as derived from and continuous with indigenous sources, thus claiming authenticity, where such a claim is not valid on comparison between supposed source and derivative.

17:30 / 14.03.02

Well, no offense taken. For me to the one of the biggest obstacles when it comes to integrating this kind of experiences have always been how much is derived from my subconcious, the collective cultural conciousnes etc...and if it reallty makes any difference.

Also of course I use different analogues when I relate these events to barbelithers than I do when I for instance told my parents about them.

I agree on the expansion thing, can be a hard thing, I know there is a big risk of developing a messiah complex after some experiences, just look at all UFO sects and people channeling, taking all the voices in the head as gospel.

However, I do think that McKenna made it very clear that he really didn't have a clue what the hell was going on. Granted he was ranting quite a bit, but if you read some of his more solemn text he was like Philip K Dick, quite confused on what all this really meant.

Leary is another issue, although I got the feeling that he was more into the psychological /personal sides of hallucinogens and how to reprogram the mind for this current world.

I feel that I might be muddying the thread a bit, so I'd better quit now.

17:46 / 14.03.02

This weekend I plan to do a DMT trip in tandem with a friend, take the hit at the same time then wait till we are coherant again drop some mdma, which will hopefully keep us talking and ranting at each other. Going to have someone else there as well to take notes.

Will post notes early next week.

DogStar

13:25 / 15.03.02

Uhh, not terribly experienced in the field BUT, if you're planning on using MAO inhibitors to lengthen the trip, I wouldn't plan on dropping MDMA, since it's basically an amphetamine.

13:51 / 15.03.02

Could anyone tell me if there is any relationship between DMT and Salvia Divinorum. I've smoked Salvia maybe half a dozen times and the experience seemed to be similar to any descriptions of DMT. It also kicks the shit out of any other drug I've taken for sheer intensity. I would also tell Dog Star to be careful when mixing the experience with MDMA. I went on a Salvia session one night and after it was finished I took an E. I had also been smoking coke. At the time it was fucking great but the overall mix got very confusing. The scary part came the next day when I just completely sort of blacked out for only a few minutes. During this time I said something with no recollection of what I said or why but it really freaked one of my friends out. None of them were offended but they wouldn't tell me what the fuck it was. They actually reassured me everything was OK but for about two weeks after this incident I had a big, big dose of the fear. Normally I just shrug off any anxiety associated with hallucinogens but for the first time in years this really freaked me out. Could have been sleep deprivation but basically I hate losing self control at all - even if it is really short term.
Anyway good look with your further experimentation and safe tripping.

14:12 / 15.03.02

Thanks for the concern over my health. I've been taking drugs for a very long time now and always do research before new mixes now.

DMT & MDMA are a very good mix.

MDMA is not an amphetimine.

The DMT/syrian rue would be done seperatly from the mdma. I think after being 4 - 10 hrs in a DMT trip I will be quite talkative enough.

Dog Star

14:22 / 15.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Dog Star:
MDMA is not an amphetimine.

No, its a meth-amphetimine.

Actually, taking the E after you come down from the DMT trip would probably be just fine. I just wouldn't recommend doing it the other way around. I don't know how well DMT would react with the excessive levels of dopamine MDMA can release. Powerfully, I'd imagine.

17:55 / 15.03.02

yeah, MDMA is short for Methylene-Dioxy-Meth-Amphetamine, if memory serves. It wouldn't be the DMT I'd worry about, it'd be the harmala or whatever. separate = good.

Salvia isn't related to DMT - in fact, it's not related to any psychedelic alkaloids at all. It may not even be an alkaloid (I'm a little foggy on that, but as yet, the science is foggy as well).

Actually, here:
quote:A. Salvia contains a substance called salvinorin-A. Salvinorin-A is the most potent naturally occurring vision inducer. Only LSD is potent at a smaller dose and LSD itself is not present in nature (although related but less potent lysergic acid amides are present in plants like morning glories). Salvinorin-A is not an alkaloid as its molecule contains only carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms. Technically it is a neoclerodane diterpenoid.

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: grant ]

20:03 / 16.03.02

i haven't been able to get salvia to work very well. my impression of it so far, in its experiential comparison to DMT, is that salvia is a softer, cloudier, weaker, vegatable version of DMT's pure godmachine. if that helps.

i'd be curious to hear how you got such a strong reaction from salvia. i've been smoking a 6x extract powder but have yet to enter the eternal 2-dimension parallel universe, etc, that i've read so much about.

09:20 / 17.03.02

thanx for the erowid link dogstar, a source like this could come in real handy.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

00:00 / 18.03.02

The Lycaeum is a really useful resource- a searchable database of interesting plants and chemicals. Purely for information purposes, you understand.

13:23 / 18.03.02

Well interesting if not revelationary weekend. The other guy I was meant to take it with had a death in the family so wasn't up for it at all. I ended up doing three more 50mg doses of DMT which didn't come close to the first experience, the first two I done back to back after the first didn't take me over the edge.

It was really dissapointing, got to the door/chrysanthenum image and just folded back down into normal space/time. Afterwards I felt a sudden understanding of those near death experiences. Where people describe seeing a white tunnel and it pulling away, describing feeling an incredible sadness. That's what I felt a real sadness like "Oh, I'm not getting in."

So while it was real nice it felt more like playtime, nice images and colours for a bit. I discovered afterwards what the problem was. I had bought a nice new glass pipe and it condensed the DMT smoke back into an oil, which meant I was getting only half a hit or less.

But while I Was cleaning the pipe out, heating it and chasing the oil, I got some really good insights into the nature of DMT. No hallucinations at all apart from a changed perception of the DMT itself. I could see this oily film radiating out from the DMT, like oil on water. A deep red colour and it seemed to be spreading over my hands. Interesting that I didn't experience any other visual hallucinations. It leads me to believe that DMT is like an organic, viral radiation.

At one point I got really deppressed, before I discovered what the problem was. I was thinking fuck maybe it just needed to work once and it has changed me and that's it. Now I'm never going to experience that perception/contact again.

So yeh it felt like the DMT was really trying to get onto/into me. To make changes.

Was interesting to have a physical grounded perception of what was happening, but for the future I know the DMT trip has to be as full on and as strong as is possible to get any real benefits from, unless you just want a pretty playtime in which case take something cheaper that lasts longer.

So guess I am sticking to my old wooden pipe. The experiment continues.

15:17 / 21.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Mystery Gypt:
i haven't been able to get salvia to work very well. my impression of it so far, in its experiential comparison to DMT, is that salvia is a softer, cloudier, weaker, vegatable version of DMT's pure godmachine. if that helps.

i'd be curious to hear how you got such a strong reaction from salvia. i've been smoking a 6x extract powder but have yet to enter the eternal 2-dimension parallel universe, etc, that i've read so much about.

Personally, I've never experienced any effect from salvia but that was because i only smoked it once through a faulty gravity bong.

I am planning to buy the living plant next month though.

MysteryGypt: Try smoking the leaves instead of the powder. I mean, if you have powder you might as well try snorting it. Or maybethat's not a good idea.

15:19 / 21.03.02

quote:Originally posted by grant:
yeah, MDMA is short for Methylene-Dioxy-Meth-Amphetamine, if memory serves. It wouldn't be the DMT I'd worry about, it'd be the harmala or whatever. separate = good.

Salvia isn't related to DMT - in fact, it's not related to any psychedelic alkaloids at all. It may not even be an alkaloid (I'm a little foggy on that, but as yet, the science is foggy as well).

Actually, here:

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: grant ]

I remember hearing news from the drug community that they (whoever "they" are) found out that there are other hallucinogens in salvia divinorum other than divinorum-a. But, last time I checked (a year ago) nobody had discovered what those substances were exactly.

08:55 / 22.03.02

The first time I smoked salvia I didn't actually know what I was smoke. It was in Holland where you can buy it from any smart shop. One of my mates handed me a pipe and told me to inhale as hard as possible and told me just to hold it for as long as I could. Before I exhaled it hit me and everything went fucked up. I didn't recognize anyone in the room and felt like every point of my body in contact with the chair or floor was infinitely smooth. I was convinced that everything has been totally changed( I can't explain) or that a whole lot of people were playing a trick on me. From other experiences I "remembered" hallucinations long after the dug wore off. I know I'm not explaining this well but it was one of those things. Its been nearly a year since the last time so I would be interested in anyones recommendations of mail/net ordered stuff. I've seen some addresses in magazines for UK based shops - any recommendations would be welcome.

20:23 / 22.03.02

having done a fair amount of each... seperate & together I would equate them as follows...

DMT: is like a machine, designed to drop(kick?) your consciousness directly into hyperspace. Variations seem to be based on how far & how long the journey is...

Salvia: she's much more like a personea... a guide that can teach your consciousness how to enter hyperspace & can carry you there... (if asked properly).

There IS a certain organic qiality to Salvia that contrasts the "chemical" quality of DMT. I've gone as far & even "father" on Salvia than DMT of late... but this I would also atribute to "skills" developed over a continual courtship with that plant spirit.

I did them both together once & found that Salvia enabled me to "stear" my hyperspace-consciencness-carrier in many more directions than the up/down in/out aspects DMT has taken me on.

MAO inhibiters are a whole other trip of course... would't really mix 'em with anything...

22:15 / 22.03.02

quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
MAO inhibiters are a whole other trip of course... would't really mix 'em with anything...

The whole point of MAO Inhibiters is that they enhance and expand other drugs. While they do things on their own, they really shine when taken with another drug.

DogStar

22:37 / 22.03.02

I understand that....

however, to date my experiences with them have not needed any mixing, and I certainly have had my share of polypharmicy.

To each their own of course...

11:00 / 23.03.02

What are MAO inhibitors? Could you give me any examples?

17:26 / 25.03.02

Passionflower's a pretty common (mild) one.

So are a whole host of antidepressant meds (although they're long-term, not short-term). The ones with the weird side effects and the dietary restrictions.

Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) is the most commonly discussed one in DIY ayahuascas.

There's a *lot* more info at www.erowid.org .

17:54 / 25.03.02

Syrian rue
... AKA Serious Ruin

01:07 / 26.03.02

Hi. This thread is timely for me as I'm soon intending to have my first DMT experience too. I've known about it for a long time (anecdotal). I must admit I only skimmed most posts because I don't like reading trip accounts. I find they cloud my view, literally. But I've got a few Qs someone might be able to answer? this is really a new thread isn't it?

Anyway I have got some Phalaris Arundinacea Picta (reed grass) containing DMT I hope. I don't know whether commertial growers try to reduce DMT content or not. Everywhere (net) I have seen this grass mentioned I have seen no mention of the "picta" suffix. Does anyone know what it means?

also does anyone have a quick (rel.) and easy (rel.) way of turning grass/ plant into smokable format?

Thanks

Tucker

17:14 / 26.03.02

try a wheat grass juicer.

17:15 / 26.03.02

dry juice to resin, then smoke.

17:37 / 26.03.02

this did not work for me, though.

17:38 / 26.03.02

perhaps an MAOi would help.

17:42 / 26.03.02

You can also soak pleanty of the grass in denatured alcohol...say for an hour or so... then tak a blow dryer to it so as to evaporate the alcohol... the resin can be collected on something like a pot bud or other material, tobacco? & then smoked....

20:32 / 28.03.02

Thanks for the advice on preparation... So no-one knows what the botanical suffix "picta" means?

17:15 / 29.03.02

The web is a powerful tool.

picta/pictum/pictus
painted (like picture) - often a variegated or multicolored plant

Chances are, it's a subspecies or common variation with multicolored leaves.

04:29 / 30.03.02

Thanks grant. Your my hero. Finally an answer. I had a feeling picta had something to do with pigment (similar). Now the question is does that affect the DMT content... ONly one way to find out I guess...

Thanks again

Tucker Tripp

19:59 / 01.04.02

Well...

How was it?

02:13 / 24.03.04

Meditation and Shamanism can take you to the same place -- without the drug.
A great place to learn Shamanism or find out where you can is through The Journeywork Institute (The Foundation for Shamanic Studies) in the states run by Michael Harner is an amazing place of investigation of non-ordinary reality. http://www.shamanism.org/ (There are many.) Workshops are all over the States and Canada. That feeling of 'feeling as if something was mended' is real and expansive. And you can 'change your story'. (What we think is what we get. Just what are you thinking of anyway?)

Dharma meditation is another path to knowing the mind. What a freeing experience to realize "there isn't an end". Yes, all fear can disappear, and as each one drops off, what a mass of extra energy.

Be well...

04:31 / 24.03.04

Thanks, tbird... though I can't help but perceive a bit of anti-drugness in your post. This thread is specifically about the DMT experience, not how or if you can get to the same place without DMT.

Among those who have never tried psychedelics or tried them briefly and moved on, there is a common tendency to belittle the experiences as inauthentic. Meditation, ritual, exertion/exhaustion, trance, and psychotropics are all methods to open up the mind to new ways of thiking and perceiving. I would never say "well, you know having the Wheels of Creation charge over you in full technicolor after a hit of DMT is so much better than straining for 10 years to hold a glimpse of the Absolute". No, both are valid paths suitable for different types of individuals.

Harner does a lot of stuff out of Santa Cruz here and he offers a great service. But I can't help feel that it's sort of "shamanism-lite" or maybe Native American Camp. If you look at real tribal shamen (i.e not just tribal members... or white men pretending they are tribal members) they almost invariably use some very extreme form of gnosis, whether it's trance dancing, hanging from hooks, or ingesting powerful hallucinogens. These are the methods to push the edges of consciousness and experience.

I'm not discounting any form of meditation or practice, but I feel it brings one to a very different place than psychotropic shamanism.

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