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The Sopranos - Season Six (US and Canada only) (Spoilers!)

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
13:27 / 09.11.07
I think the point is that Tony is living on a knife edge, and so are the rest of his family - in a way they always have been, but now we're very aware of it. And maybe Tony's in a weaker position than he once was, but more likely I think is that we've eventually realised how he's never going to really change, just deteriorate. There's only two endings for a guy like him, as he once said, although as 'Stage 5' showed, really in the end there's only one.
 
 
Mug Chum
13:33 / 09.11.07
Yeah but - and it might be just me - that particular edge only gets finely sharpened if we accept a possibility (to a point where I entertain the certainty) of Tony's death in that scene's never-ending coming, so we can fall under his POV and feel the punch of the anxiety and fear he feels at every single moment, and will continue to do so if he lived.

So, at a certain level I feel "one" ending pretty much feeds the other.
 
 
Mug Chum
13:36 / 09.11.07
One more thing.

The Sopranos discussions in the 'lith really made me want to hunt down the seasons I didn't catch, rewatch some I've seen and read all the threads again.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
15:51 / 09.11.07
Regardless, I still like to imagine the possibility of Tony's death. That tiny ambiguous moment of ever present anxiety and uncertainty is what made it good for me. Had he just lived and we just left off as we came in, well... I can imagine that already with this ending so...

Right, that's just it, I think. The ending was carefully set up to justify either imagined outcome. When Chase talks about no Da Vinci Code, I think he's saying that you're never going to get a definitive answer, that the clues will only add up to ambiguity. So you have to engage the ending.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:10 / 11.11.07
ending made sense to me. wasn't that the cops/feds/law gathering in the diner to bust him? they didn't seem like mafia hit men.

they're going to arrest Tony and bang him in prison - something phil said, because he hadn't done real time - made Tony less of a true mob boss. it's important for tony to do some time. for his job prospects and for the sake of the viewer's conscience.

i think the diner scene was a chapter-turning scene - the closure of untouchable mob boss lifestyle, and the opening few lines of of tony's next story. one set behind bars.

keeps the audience happy too. viewer feels good that tony has to pay for his lifestyle. viewer also feels good that loveable tony doesn't actually die.

just yet.

movie?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:59 / 11.11.07
The point is, we don't know. It could well be the Feds. It could well be a hit.

Rewatching the show, it's actually full of long periods of time in which certain plotlines teeter on the brink - think how long it took for all-out war to break out between Carmine's NY family and New Jersey, when it was threatened so often. Or how long Adrianna was working for the Feds, or how long Vito must have been concealing his sexuality... So often, when these things do blow up, it's over a small or unrelated thing, it's arbitrary. Tony could go - to jail, or just "go", as they always put it - at basically any time, and the factors that keep him hanging in the balance are pretty much uncontrollable.
 
 
Spaniel
17:01 / 11.11.07
Yawn, you really think there was a straightforward bit of closure buried in that ending? Clear, unambiguous signposts that the feds were coming to bust him?

Really?
 
 
PatrickMM
18:27 / 11.11.07
I find the feds theory hard to believe after earlier in the episode we see the feds basically give Tony Phil, the implication being Tony is a boss they can work with, while Phil is too much of a wild card. That fits with the conflict between the two of them, with Phil being staunchly old school and unwilling to compromise, while Tony talks to the feds about the two Arab guys to help protect himself.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:26 / 11.11.07
we see the feds basically give Tony Phil

No we don't. We see Agent Harris give Tony Phil - and then later, we see him inappropriately exclaim "We're gonna win this thing!" when the news about Phil being whacked reaches him (thanks to Television Without Pity for the reference). But even without knowing the reference you can see that Harris isn't acting with his bosses' approval: hence the fact that his tip-off call to Tony is made secretly, while he's having an affair with a colleague. There's no implication to be drawn that the official Federal investigation dedicated to bringing Tony down is letting up. Tony wants to think that he's feeding the Feds into on terrorists and in the process helping keep his country safe and getting the Feds onside, but it's pretty clear that his info isn't worth much and Harris has just started to identify with him a little too much.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
09:52 / 12.11.07
While the ending does seem to be open either way, I think I prefer the idea of the life going on. Having watched most of it again on DVD recently (something I'd recommend; the only downside is a tendency to go on about 'clipping' people in pub conversations, but that'll hopefully pass soon) one thing that stands out is the way nothing ever really gets resolved. In the short term obviously, Tony's problems are dealt with, but (and this could be an argument in defence of a series that might otherwise be accused of having outstayed its welcome) by the end it's been pretty much hammered home that there's always going to be a rat to worry about, the looming threat of a RICO trial, and another Ralphie, Richie or Phil along in a minute or two. The repetition in the structure appears to be a part of the point, so I quite like the idea that this relentless grind is just going to continue, and that Tony will survive and even prosper not because he's particularly gifted as a boss, or at all noble or heroic, but just because of the combination of dumb luck, brute strength and monumental insensitivity that's got him this far. Also, and while it's a bit crass to say so, the idea of the bad guy going unpunished has a certain dramatic appeal, this being America in the Twenty First century. 'This is not an exit' and so on.
 
 
Spaniel
10:36 / 12.11.07
But of course life going on could equally mean Tony gets whacked or Tony goes to prison. That is life in the gangster world
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:32 / 12.11.07
True. And I suppose it's hard to imagine Tony going on with business as usual, at least to begin with, given his staffing problems.
 
 
Spaniel
14:39 / 12.11.07
Well, I also think some variation on business as usual is possible. As Petey mentions above, if the Soprano's teaches us one thing it's that the things which we think are built up to be consequential within the show seldom are - that's one of the biggest reasons why I think insisting on a certain reading of the ending is bloody ridiculous and completely misunderstands how the show works.

Did that make sense. Hope it did. Running for train...
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
03:24 / 25.11.07
boboss: yes. I really do.

although the 'uncertainty' narrative is a more intelligent reading.

maybe i just wanna see T behind bars.

fat c*nt.
 
 
Spaniel
11:46 / 25.11.07
I just think it's a more obvious reading, hence my incredulity
 
 
Spaniel
15:03 / 25.11.07
(and you are, of course, an intelligent fella)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:09 / 25.11.07
Yawn, matsya has been slapped for this so you will be too, mind the language please?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:22 / 25.11.07
- yawn -

sure.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:47 / 25.11.07
and boboss: your interpretation is of course a more credible reading.

however, I'd say what's attractive about that reading is that it allows each viewer to settle on the closure they are comfortable with. and I obviously plumped for an ending which would lead to Tony doing time behind bars.

the open ended reading makes all endings 'correct'.

I think, given that its a tv show and therefore at the mercy of countless factors beyond the author's definitive story (the death of the actress who played tony's mum for example, obviously impacted on the overall arc (I think)and there must have been other unforseen things which changed how the story developed), so bearing all that in mind, the open ended reading of the ending has to be the best fit, the only fit. agreed.

but as I've said, it also allows each viewer to 'make' their own ending. as my 'closure-obsessed' brain chose to do. (perhaps becoming a news journalist in the past few months has finally blown away my love of open-ended storytelling. Invisibles seems so far away now...)


our lady - I sometimes forget this isn't a pub chat. I'd hope you'd see my naughty words in that context. but whoever slapped matsya - shouldn't we report them for assault?)
 
  

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