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VMemes 101

 
  

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werwolf
06:29 / 09.03.06
excuse me, this might be threadrot, but it seems to me that you are discussing whether the given example was good or not (imo it was a very bad example) instead of discussing whether or not the theory of vMemes is going anywhere.
there have been other cases when an example that was meant to actually clarify things only clouded and garbled it up, while the theory in itself was quite worthwhile.

so, for example (although i wanted to wait until cassandra is finished) a question: if all of these phases are stacked on top of each other (if you remove one on a certain level all of the levels above will collapse, while the levels below will remain unharmed) do they also interfere with each other? so, for instance, does red put limits on beige?
 
 
*
15:54 / 09.03.06
it seems to me that you are discussing whether the given example was good or not...instead of discussing whether or not the theory of vMemes is going anywhere.

I can see why you'd say that. In this case I'm using the example to illustrate my problem with vMeme as so far presented, which is that it seems to promulgate the notion that some groups of people are "more advanced" than others. I think Cassandra's open to hearing that kind of criticism, and for my part I eagerly await hir fuller explanation of the vMeme theory so I can decide whether I am wrong.
 
 
Aertho
16:37 / 09.03.06
As you'll see with other "manifestations" of the vmemes, it's never the set-in-stone and strict word examples ...I suppose there is a dubious graying of synonyms -but manifestation, for me, translates as a(n) event or action when such a vMeme is expressed.

I sincerely don't believe that the !Kung San are analogous to neolithic humans, chimpanzees, or the terrible insensitive notion of "primitives". But perhaps, when the men and women are hunting and gathering, they are exhibiting BEIGE behavior. I fully believe you are more schooled in anthropology and welcome your criticisms and contributions. In my understanding, BEIGE-flavored individuals wouldn't even feel the need for having a distinct culture (ie naming themselves the !Kung San), much less sing, dance, and find imaginative opportunities for self expression. The naming, and the dancing, imply at least a PURPLE and RED flavoring present.

BEIGE for me, is seemingly more panicked, and severely self-focused... like those stories of children being raised in isolation and developing psychoses... but that's another thread I'm sure. Even the homeless have developed a specialized language, so I'm not sure there is a satisfactory "manifestation" of the BEIGE vMeme. As we go further, we may be able to distinguish between the higher colors with greater ease... as the attributed motivations are often and easily discernable from how one communicates their intent.

I will admit that Lurid's chimps threw me... and consequently had me sit and think for a while. I still don't know how to correctly engage that, as some primates can interact in human spheres.
 
 
Aertho
16:43 / 09.03.06
The vMeme levels are also argued as being successive layerings of expanding compassion as well, which is what I found most interesting and useful. I'll dive through some books to find the exact words used to describe that perspective.
 
 
*
17:12 / 09.03.06
So that sounds like the vMemes are modes of existence every human goes through daily, different ones being appropriate for different situations... like the fact that I am sitting here posting on Barbelith instead of getting lunch means I'm stuck in Barbelith-posting flavor and consequently not paying any mind to BEIGE telling me I really should eat something? I can see that being of use to me.
 
 
Aertho
17:32 / 09.03.06
different ones being appropriate for different situations

And this is where the whole notion of, for lack of a better word, advancement comes into it. Over time, more nuanced and stratified situations arise... over history, those situations become more prominant -due to increased technology, increased populations, increased media... but maybe I'm digging a new hole. Eh. Let me just continue with Zatanna and BLUE...
 
 
Aertho
22:01 / 09.03.06


ZATANNA
Zatanna, former member of the JLA and the third of the Seven Soldiers, is gifted with the magical ability to reshape reality by means of speaking backwards. She is, in effect, equipped with a pleasure principle deus ex machina, but events stemming from the uninhibited use of her powers resulted in an enormous guilt complex that prevented her access to that ability. In seeking out her father's lost tomes of magick, Zatanna's friends were mysteriously killed.

In dealing with the fallout of those events, Zatanna joined a therapy group, attended by an adolescent girl named Misty. Misty, idolizing Zee's power and skill, informed her that she too had magic powers and requested that Zatanna take her on as an apprentice. On the run from Zatanna's conjure-gone-wrong, Misty is instructed in basic rules over magick and life, mimicking in no small way Zatanna's tutelage under her deceased father.

After running into the ghost of Ali Ka-Zoom, the pair are met by agents of the Sheeda. Upon realizing Misty's secret origins, and narrowly escaping death, the two split up. Misty heads to Tibet while Zatanna seeks the assistance of the Seven Unknown Men. There, Zatanna is ambushed by the Terrible Time Tailor, Zor. Zatanna employs her conjured man to represent her in the battle of wills versus Zor. As the two mages grow in exponential sizes, Zee uses the opportunity to strike back at Zor, but falters. In a last ditch attempt to conquer her enemy, Zatanna reaches out to the only higher power available, the Seven Unknown Men.

The Men, who'd been watching as an audience, subdue Zor and grant Zatanna an audience with the shade of her father. Zatara informs her that she, herself, is the living embodiment of his books, his greatest spell, and his gift to the world. The following day, Zatanna reports to her counselor, and is stengthened by her words.

"Whatever you once did that you thought was wrong, you've more than redeemed yourself with all the good you've done. "
 
 
Aertho
22:11 / 09.03.06


BLUE
emerged 2,500 years ago
worldview PURPOSEFUL/AUTHORITARIAN

An ordered existence under the control of the ultimate truth. Life has meaning, direction, and purpose, with outcomes determined by an all-powerful Order. It enforces a code of conduct based on absolutist and unvarying principles of “right” and “wrong.” Violating the code or rules has severe, perhaps everlasting repercussions. Following the code yields rewards for the faithful. Basis of ancient nations. Rigid social hierarchies; paternalistic; one right way and only one right way to think about everything. Law and order; impulsivity controlled through guilt; concrete-literal and fundamentalist belief; obedience to order.


Life has meaning, direction and purpose; enforce principles of right living.
    • Righteous living produces stability now and guarantees future reward
    • Impulsivity is controlled through guilt; everybody has their
    proper place
    • Laws, regulations, and discipline build character and moral fiber


Manifestations
The Inquisition
patriotism
Puritan America
the Moral Majority
religious fundamentalism
 
 
Aertho
22:15 / 09.03.06


THE DEFENDER
In Level 5 there is a search for a transcendent purpose, a recognition of the importance of order and meaning, a universe controlled by a single higher power. Society could no longer function with the constant presence of Pitbulls, with war-like, gang-like, and warlord-like entities, so we had to grow up, to solve the problems created by Level 3 success. Here for the first time is the capacity to feel guilt. Pitbulls feel shame, but not guilt. In the Defender system, people gladly accept authoritarianism and sacrifice for the common good.

When Defenders first develop, it has to handle the threat of Pitbulls. And that’s why in the Old Testament you have such punitive measures as “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” If there is a heavy Pitbull component, then you have, in religious systems and legal systems, the very heavy punitive form of Defender. It’s designed to address the threat of Level 3, so as long as the Pitbull threat is there, the punitive expression of Level 5 will continue to exist. But as Defenders move away from having to contain the violence in Level 3, it goes on its life cycle toward its own healthier version, taking the form of more institutionalized systems, in which righteousness, discipline, accountability, stability, perseverance, and order prevail.

What also seems to occur in the brain is a heightened capacity for abstraction, and that abstraction ability attaches itself to a cause, an “ism”, for example. Examples include the Buddhist’s Eightfold Path, or the idea of Islam, which are both abstractions. So once again, we’re into a metaphysical zone, but this time the Turtle spirits are organized into “a mighty fortress is our God ...” And thus we have the birth of monotheism and Zoroastrianism and all the “isms” that suddenly started emerging about five thousand years ago. And while they had different content, the mode of thinking for all of them was identical.

Meme codes are like a blueprint, or like magnets. The meme code we designate “Defender” finds a transcendent purpose. What is that transcendent purpose? It could be Buddhism, or Judaism, or Islam. These religious expressions are what that meme code has attached to as a way to express itself. Therefore we can have holy wars between “isms,” both of which are in the Level 5 code. Because there’s a difference between the surface-level manifestations of a core value system, or meme, and the core system, or meme code, itself.
 
 
Nakkurusu
16:50 / 10.03.06
Where's Level 4?
 
 
Aertho
17:32 / 10.03.06
The numbers are Fibonacci... but I was once thinking about doing theoretical GYROmon a while ago. Level 4 would've been denoted The Zealot. Other theoreticals include Neocons, Generals, and Kennedies. But that's all just me playing.
 
 
Nakkurusu
19:19 / 10.03.06
Oh, that make sense. I hope I didn't come off as rude.
 
 
Aertho
02:03 / 18.03.06


KLARION THE WITCH-BOY
Bored to tears with the strict oppressive lifestyles of the hidden Witch-people, fourth Soldier Klarion imagined beyond the cave walls of underground Limbotown. Due to the controlling machinations of the religious Submissionaries, the Witch-people were all but ready to shut themselves off from the only access to other places. Through Teekl, Klarion witnessed the Submissionaries transform into a monster, and rushed off to warn the Witch-men. He was too late and was met by their slaughtered bodies, and the Submissionary monster, Horigal.

Thinking quick, Klarion used a totem to command the Grundy slaves to attack Horigal, and escaped with the help of a stranger Witch-man, Ebeneezer Goode. Goode took Klarion through the underground caverns of New York City and saw a subway, dead homeless pirates, a superorganism made of children called Leviathan, and the empty room where their god Croatoan was supposed to be. After discovering atheism, Klarion also discovered he was to be betrayed by Goode and captured by thugs. Klarion turned the tables by allying himself with the children of Leviathan, and attacking.

He ventured upwards and found the fabled "Blue Rafters" in Manhattan. He was in turn found by Mr. Melmoth, a strange benefactor who took in lost children and encouraged mayhem, vandalism, theft, and shifts in group dynamics. After inciting another boy to harm Klarion, Teekl again witnessed a betrayal, this time in Melmoth's supposed authority. The children, once aged to 16, were sent to Mars as slaves to mine gold. Klarion abruptly left Melmoth's care, but was persuaded to return to warn Limbotown that Melmoth was coming to raid their town.

On returning to Limbotown, Klarion was put to burn at the stake for madness and heresy. Instead or perishing, Klarion was saved through the timely arrival of Melmoth, who revealed himself to be the original, immortal Sheeda ancestor of the Witch-people. Melmoth easily dispatched of the Grundy forces leveled against him, but was repelled by Klarion, who'd used the Horigal spell to unite himself and Teekl into an unstoppable killing machine. Melmoth, burning alive, grew bored with the resistance and left. Klarion resolved to follow Melmoth and join the fight against the coming Sheeda invasion.


"I would like to be many things before I die, mother. Today... today I shall be a soldier."
 
 
Aertho
02:10 / 18.03.06


ORANGE
emerged 700 years ago
worldview ACHIEVIST/STRATEGIC

A marketplace full of possibilities and opportunities. At this wave, the self “escapes” from the “herd mentality” and seeks truth and meaning in individualistic terms, hypothetico-deductive, experimental, objective, operational, “scientific” in the typical sense. The world is a rational and well-oiled machine with natural laws that can be learned, mastered, and manipulated for one’s own purposes. Highly achievement-oriented, especially toward materialistic gains. The laws of science rule politics, the economy, and human events.


Act in your own self-interest by playing to win.
    • Change and advancement are inherent within the scheme of things
    •Progresses by learning nature’s secrets and seeking out best solutions
    • Manipulates Earth’s resources to create and spread the abundant good life
    • Optimistic, risk-taking, and self-reliant people deserve success
    • Societies prosper through strategy, technology, and competitiveness


Manifestations
the Enlightenment
colonialism
Wall Street
the growing middle class
 
 
Aertho
02:13 / 18.03.06


THE GYMNAST
Level 8 is about advancement, improvement, and progress. Once again, you play out the Defender theme to its ultimate. You make it very, very successful. And then what happens? The individual gets restless. “But I’m an individual. I want to assert my personal autonomy.” “No,” the Defender says. “You must stay in line and conform to the dictates of the system. Don’t you want to go to heaven? Don’t you want to have a retirement?” And the Gymnast says, “Yes, but I think I can produce a heaven on earth. I think I can increase the size of the cake.” Thus we had the great Enlightenment, which is simply the individual spirit breaking free from what had become very restrictive forces.

Now the Level 5 system, when it first appeared, was relevant, was necessary. But Level 8 individualization began to appear about three hundred years ago, when the sacred leaders became too punitive and also became discredited because they could not protect people from the plagues. And thus we had the birth, thank goodness, of the scientific method. We also had a growing belief in optimism, in changeability, a belief that we can indeed shape our future, that we are the stewards of the universe and therefore have dominion over it. We can carve out a good life for ourselves. And again, some fascinating things happened in the European brain that seemed to occur for the first time in the 1700s, the mathematical sense, the sense of cadence, the linear sense that made possible written music, that made possible quantification and measurement. These classical left brain capacities uniquely developed in the Western brain in the Gymnast system. That entire wonderful movement is begrudgingly classified as “Western,” but that’s really what it is.

If we don’t like capitalism or consumerism, which are expressions of the Gymnast meme code, it’s not the same thing as the meme code itself, which is the capacity to engineer things, to make things better. The creativity and ability to engineer that are inherent in that same Level 8 meme code can now be used to clean up the environment. That’s why we can’t afford to bash any of these memetic systems. We can challenge a manifestation of it, but without the Gymnast thinking system, we couldn’t solve medical problems, we couldn’t figure out how to clean up the water or the air, and we would sink back to the myth and mysticism of Defenders. Nobody wants that to happen.
 
 
Aertho
02:14 / 18.03.06
That's a funny second paragraph there. Best use salt.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:57 / 18.03.06
So why do you keep writing or quoting this stuff when you know that some of the claims are questionable, at best, and possibly racist?
 
 
Aertho
13:14 / 18.03.06
Eh. I'm an optimist.

I suppose I could go back and edit, but the damage is done. It was a copy/paste quote, and I've forgotten from exactly where, but it meant to suggest that European ORANGE zeitgeist was a result of the Renaissance, which was in turn a result of the cultural exchange between the Middle East and Western Europe during the Crusades.

So here you have the basics for the way vMemes work. One begins with "me" needs and desires, and when those are met, the self moves on to "we"-based thinking. So from immediate "me" BEIGE, one beings to percieve the world in terms of cause and effect and moves toward PURPLE to establish a sense of family and group affiliation, for safety. From monotonous frustrations there, "me"-based thinking arises again in the form of emotional aggressive RED, which in turn is controlled by another "we"-based system, BLUE. BLUE differs from PURPLE in that is a philosophical sense of safety, the Self isn't as physical. But as that gets boring, "me" emerges again in the form of ORANGE, without the aggressive tendencies of RED, and with the rules of the how the game is played in BLUE. ORANGE uses skills and speicalized weaponry to win and acquire. As that becomes stale, an emotional quality becomes paramount, one that is "we"-based and acknowledges others as peers, not as competitors.

Me, then we, then me, then we, then me, then we... and so on. And each climb higher sees less and less immediate needs and more causal relationships in the world.
 
 
Aertho
01:29 / 19.03.06


MISTER MIRACLE
We first meet Shiloh Norman, Mister Miracle, as he is preparing to enter his latest daring escape from a miniature black hole. Our fifth Soldier is, to say the least, surprised to meet Metron once past the event horizon. Metron mysteriously pleas Shiloh to take up his responsiblities to "free the New Gods" and accept his true destiny. After receiving visions of New Genesis and Apokolips, Shiloh is thrown out of the black hole, succeeding in his escape.

Later, at Shiloh's posh New York City penthouse, he and his manager ZZ discuss Shiloh's strange behaviour since the black hole escape. ZZ decides to shake Shiloh out of his funk by introducing him to professonal escorts, which goes awry when Shiloh freaks out. After a visit to his therapist Shiloh has another episode upon meeting a man in a wheelchair, and is suddenly being chased and gunned down by black sedans. Mister Miracle escapes by using a manhole as a trapdoor.

Shiloh meets again with his therapist, Doctor Dezard, who dismisses Shiloh's emotional episodes and "visions", and instead inquires about Shiloh's Motherboxxx device. In another session, Dezard manipulates Shiloh into asking a rival escape artist into becoming his opening act. At the Dome show, Mister Miracle meets his rival, Baron Bedlam, backstage, only to discover Bedlam's crew has brainwashed ZZ as well as his girlfriend Jonelle. Shiloh attacks Bedlam, and finds his rival to be a series of robotic replicants operating with one competitive operating system. Dezard appears and hold Shiloh while Dark Side whispers the "Anti-Life Equation", which Shiloh overcomes through understanding purpose, kindness and love. Dark Side commands his henchmen to beat, break, burn, and castrate Shiloh.

Shiloh subsequently commits suicide, and suddenly finds himself in another simultaneous life, instead of death. Experiences speed up, and Shiloh senses that something is terribly wrong with the sequencing of his life's events. He begins to remember his childhood dreams of being a super-celebrity escape artist, and the trajedy of his brother's death. He remembers his time as the warden of the Slab, and the events that led to his career as Mister Miracle. His lives continue to speed up and repeat in an unending cycle of pain and suffering, until Motherboxxx triggers a final episode: Shiloh perceives the Omega Sanction, a semi-sentient New God machine in the employ of Dark Side. Shiloh halts the repetition of pain by empathizing with hhis captor and asking Omega to escape Dark Side with him.

Shiloh reassembles himself inside the black hole, and has another vision of Metron, who states that this has all been but an initiation into the New Gods, and that Shiloh is ready to transcend the Life Trap and achieve his true destiny.

"...there's a fundamental force in me too. I gave my life over to representing something that's in all of us. So whatever's holding you down, wherever you are, however hard it seems... how about you and me escape together?"
 
 
Aertho
01:41 / 19.03.06


GREEN
emerged 150 years ago
worldview HUMANIST/COMMUNITARIAN

A human habitat in which we share life’s experiences, freed from dogma. Communitarian, human bonding, ecological sensitivity, networking. The human spirit must be freed from greed, dogma, and divisiveness; feelings and caring supersede cold rationality; cherishing of the earth, Gaia, life. Against hierarchy; establishes lateral bonding and linking. Emphasis on dialogue, relationships. Reaches decisions through reconciliation and consensus. Refresh spirituality, bring harmony, enrich human potential. Strongly egalitarian, anti-hierarchy, pluralistic values, social construction of reality, diversity, multiculturalism, relativistic value systems; this worldview is often called pluralistic relativism. Subjective, nonlinear thinking; shows a greater degree of affective warmth, sensitivity, and caring for earth and all its inhabitants.


Seek peace in the inner self and explore the caring dimensions of the community and environment.
    • Focus with GREEN is community and equality, attention to environmental concerns
    •Work is motivated by human contact and contribution, learning from others
    • Being liked is more important than competitive advantage
    • Value openness and trust, fear rejection and disapproval
    • Can become so bogged down and ineffectual, though, that people revert to go-getter individualism of ORANGE, the defined order of BLUE, or even the pleasure principle of RED


Manifestations
John Lennon's music
Netherland's idealism
Rogerian counselling
Doctors without Borders
Canadian health care
ACLU
sensitivity training
animal rights
deep ecology
Minneapolis-St Paul social services
Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream company
liberation theology
 
 
Aertho
01:46 / 19.03.06


THE LUNCHLADY
In the world of Gymnasts, the “good life” was measured in materialistic terms. So Level 13, this fairly recent memetic code, began emerging about 150 years ago, out of the Ages of Industry, to declare that in all of these undertakings, the basic human being has been neglected. The focus shifts from personal achievement to group and community-oriented goals and objectives, for in the worldview of Lunchladies, we are all one human family.

Level 13 begins by making peace with ourselves and then expands to looking at the conflicts in society too, addressing the economic gaps created by Gymnasts, Defenders and Pitbulls, to make a brotherhood we can all share equally. Gender roles are dissolved, glass ceilings opened, affirmative action plans are implemented, and social class distinctions blurred. Spirituality returns as a nondenominational “unity.” The positives of Lunchlady thinking include multiculturalism, ecological awareness, civil and human rights issues. A Lunchlady provides extraordinarily positive gifts — all meant to keep us from hurting each other.

What Lunchladies accomplish, is the cleansing of the Gyrovolution system, declaring an equality of all the different experiences of life. It weakens the control of Defenders and Gymnasts, allowing Turtles and Pitbulls to have their time on CNN. It works to find equality and sameness and sensitivity. And it is doing so for a very good purpose: because without Level 13, we could not go to the fully-activated Level 21. The only questions that remain are why and how one should go about doing that.

Every Gyromon has its downside or shadow elements. The positive side of Level 13 thinking is its attempt to treat all people fairly, and to not marginalize or exclude any of them. The downside is a “flatland” pluralism that goes from saying all views should be treated fairly to saying all views should be treated the same. This flatland pluralism erases all depth from the universe — nothing is deeper, higher, wider, more integral, more compassionate, more caring, or more loving. Everything is merely the same. This is supposed to liberate all views from nasty judgmentalism, but it merely flattens all views into equally meaningless drivel. When all views are the same, no views carry merit.

The atmosphere of postmodernism is therefore endless irony. You say one thing, you mean another, but under no circumstances are you to be caught actually harboring a conviction. This attitude can be wonderfully funny — think of any comedian. You cannot expect them to state any sort of value, belief, or meaning — because in flatland, there isn’t any.

Baby Boomers were the first generation to introduce this flatland pluralism to mainstream culture, but the younger generations were brought up under its influence. Gen X handled it by adopting the slacker attitude. If nothing is worth believing, then why work for anything? And Millennials just buckle underneath it. How does one grow up into a culture that doesn’t acknowledge growth? The comment you hear most often from college professors is that you can’t get these kids involved in any discussion about the merits of a particular view, because all views are supposed to be the same.

This in itself is ironic, because it’s the Boomer professors who started the whole mess. They started this flatland pluralism largely as a way to advance an agenda to promote an end to social oppression. The problem is that pluralism is not the way to end oppression, but to cement it in place, because the notion that all views are created equal makes it impossible to criticize the present state of social affairs, because no view is supposed to be superior to another. Instead of producing a generation of political activists, they actually produced a generation of social inactivists, who are without any sort of sense in how to carry a truly progressive agenda. That would demand making a series of major judgments — and that is what flatland pluralism prevents.

So we have entire younger generations of stuttering Lunchladies. Social judgment, will , and magnanimity have been largely crushed — one of the main legacies of boomeritis and flatland pluralism. The Me generation has completely ignored the notion of the We. The kids of today are left only with irony. All views are the same, and any belief must be deconstructed. Kids are left with flatland depression everywhere, forced end-of-the-road Lunchlady values, irony in all directions.

This is where it gets a little tricky. In this Lunchlady world of flatland pluralism, you can’t even state an answer to any question without getting laughed off the stage. Any depth is met with searing suspicion. A spectrum of consciousness is out of the question — there can be no degrees of depth anywhere, just the protection of equivalent surfaces floating on a sea of meaningless irony.
 
 
Quantum
18:53 / 21.03.06
As I am not quite grasping the point of this thread let me restrict myself to mostly commenting on Maslow.
His heirarchy of needs was supposed to be universally applicable across cultures and times, with the basic needs (food shelter water) having to be met before the higher needs could be addressed. Like a pyramid, you see. You don't worry about the purpose of your life if you are starving.
Vmemes seems more like a progression, mapping an arbitrary schema (in this case 7 soldiers/colours) onto the 'progress of civilisation' (a controversial concept itself). Can I suggest a read of the Promethea issue where Moore maps the same 'progress' onto the Major Arcana of the Tarot? It's a much snugger fit IMVHO, and also a single comic instead of 49/56/howevermany 7S issues there will be. Simplicity, Occam's razor and all that might favour Moore over Morrison in this case.
 
 
werwolf
06:52 / 23.03.06
adding my 2 cents here (although i guess "inflation" might have its actual worth at something around 0.00002 cents):

i believe there is a basic misunderstanding with the "progression" notion going on here. as far as i can tell the progression from one phase to another in vmeme theory does not exclude the levels before it. in other words, to be at one level all levels that lead to that level HAVE to be present and intact. if one of the "lower" levels fails or becomes extinct / eradicatted, all levels above that will collapse. so, i don't think we are looking at a linear progression here but more at a linked system of different states that have some inherent causality to and within each other.

i think what many people criticize here, what i deem to be a syntax problem, is how these various levels are being connected to various periods in history and time. i believe that to be misleading. if we view vmemes (or any meme) as an informal "idea" (whether it's conscious or unconscious or subconscious, instinct or whatever) then we will find that any "idea" can exist at any point in time. vmeme theory seems only to suggest that for certain memes to come into play others must be present, sort of like a basic foundation. what the anchoring to the various historical periods is supposed to do (imho) is to illustrate how one vmeme interacts with human society when it starts to grow and dominate.

btw: alan moore is also NOT suggesting a linear progression in "promethea".
 
 
Spaniel
13:31 / 23.03.06
Can I just ask, are VMemes supposed to be metaphysical entities? I can't imagine them any other way, and, that said, my instinctive dislike of multiplying entities beyond (what I consider to be) necessity has me humming at and hawing at this thread.
 
 
Aertho
14:43 / 23.03.06
No, I don't think of them as metaphysical entities... maybe meta-narrative entities, but what lead you to suggest that?
 
 
Slate
16:49 / 23.03.06
THREADROT:

Does the lunch lady have Bingo Wings?

sorry, couldn't resist...
 
  

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