BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Reading digitized comics? Do you do it? Are you scared of it? Admit it.

 
  

Page: 1(2)3

 
 
Jack Denfeld
15:52 / 07.03.06
I hope you all get your houses robbed ,see how you feel about it then...
I'll feel like I should download everything, so the burglars can't steal any actual physical copies of my cds and comics.
 
 
Spaniel
16:10 / 07.03.06
Downloading comics, whether you think it's morally wrong or not, is not the same as robbing someone's house and if I have to explain the difference between the two acts then either you're not thinking hard enough or you're suffering from a worrying failure of empathy towards those that have actually been burgled.

Course, I'm not entirely sure you're for real...
 
 
dmj2012
17:41 / 07.03.06
I have a few gigs worth of downloaded comics. Interestingly most of them are for comics I already own physical forms of. I've then shared copies with a few folks to turn them on to good comics. I now have several friends who had never read comics before who are going out and buying entire runs in graphic novel format. People who weren't spending any money on comics before.

Now this probably says more about the types of people I hang with rather than being representative of comic pirates as a whole, but it does go to show that in some cases the ability to share digital copies of something brought in new consumers to a product.
 
 
T Blixius
18:23 / 07.03.06
Downloading Comics is Theft.

I do not agree with this. Theft occurs when something physical is taken. Downloading is simply making a copy. Theft is if there is a monetary loss due to that thing being taken. I can tell you now, I would never have paid for the invisibles, or even known about it, Grant Morrison, or his other more recent work (which i have paid for, at least, the stuff i've liked) if it wasn't for downloadable invisibles being available. So at least in my case, I've actually become a customer due to downloading. In fact, I have bought several issues of the Invisibles that were available to me even though i owned digital versions becasue there is a big difference between the physical object and a computer screen. And that difference is worth money, at least to me.

Now I realize that every situation is not the same, especially if people are downloading and reselling, that's obviously wrong, or if people are downloading and never buying ANYTHING, also that's wrong. But I'm a person, that if I had never been exposed to the invisibles by either (1.) downloading it for free or (2.)reading a friends copy for free (essentially the same thing), then I wouldn't have been a customer of Morrisons' EVER. How this can be likened to theft, i don't know, because i'm sure there are plenty of you that have read a book or comic of your friends that you didn't buy. Is that also theft ? I don't think so. It's just a little more widespread now.

The same thing with CDs. I have downloaded many CDs, didn't listen to them much or didn't like them, and threw them away. However, I have downloaded much music I really liked, and because I feel the artist (and even the label) deserves payment, gone out and bought those albums. (and made nicer lossless FLAC copies too ;0P) Those are albums that I would not have bought without being able to freely listen and make up my own mind. They ought to offer free listening of this in record stores, and make record stores more like a library, where there are quiet booths and people can listen via a networked computer system to all the releases in the store, then if they really like something, they can buy the hard copy or transfer it to their computer or device digitally and securely (and at a discount, good idea!) But these things are not being done, and they won't be done, and that, along with the ridiculous overprice of the music CDs, is what is causing the music industry so much trouble. It's simply greed and refusal to accept a new paradigm.

Comics are in a better position than music because seeing something on the screen is not as nice as having a hardcopy, period. Especially if those hardcopies use innovative printing techniques and materials, you just can't reproduce that.

I would also like to point out the issue of quality. It's been well known in recent years the quality of both comics and music has been in decline, and yet when something good comes out, it still sells and makes a lot of money. I think the companies in question, and those involved need to worry less about such so-called theft and more about ensuring a product is actually worth the very expensive price in an economy where luxury items are the first things to be cut during a downturn period.
 
 
Good Stuff
11:24 / 08.03.06
And I can't agree that copying an artisitic work ISN'T theft. At least under current laws/attitudes.

Copyright is becoming less relevant in a world where copying is effortless, instant - and I imagine that will result in some big changes in how we view Intellectual Property and creative output.
I have no idea how it will be resolved, though.
- I suppose one way is massively automated, sophisticated TotalControl!('print screen' will have to go out the window of course). With automatic lawsuits, loss of electronic privacy, spyware in everything, and serious sentencing.
But given that is virtually impossible, we'll have to come up with a more creative solution.

I get my comics from the library. I've read Invisibles loads of times, but I am yet to buy a single TPB of it. Does that make me reprehensible? I expect not.

(I will add that getting into GM has made me buy other works of his, TPMs and single issues. and I have been buying various titles for years on and off)
 
 
juju eyeballs
13:54 / 08.03.06
I mainly read digitized comics. There are two reasons for that, (a) I'm a student with very limited funds, so I can't keep the TPBs flowing, which brings me to the other reason (b) availability of comics where I live. There are one store who sells TPBs, and the range is pretty limited too.

I really like the idea of subscribing to comics online, for a small amount of money per issue. It would allow me to follow comics more than I do atm.

And I can't really say that I prefer the TPBs before digitized comics. The single issues and .cbrs are easier to handle/read than TPBs.

And it is also worth a mention that digital comics was my entry gate to comics & the invisibles.
 
 
matthew.
15:25 / 08.03.06
I was thinking about the above when I was trying to read the first collection of Seven Soldiers that recently showed up on shelves. I was trying to read what's close the spine but I couldn't without breaking the spine of the book, which is a big no-no. Then I checked my downloads and read the exact same issue on my computer.

BUT... you can't see the entire page layout with your eye unless you zoom out, and then you can't read the dialogue. As well, a two-page splash page leaves a bad taste in my mouth when it's on a monitor.

Or, on the page, there's a column-like panel stretching the length of the page. If there's dialogue at the bottom of a panel, one might miss it.

I also find that if a single issue has a very specific design to it, like a literal arch traced through all the pages, like an issue of Cerebus, it's hard to notice that until you switch to thumbnail view, which means you can't make out the details....
 
 
stabbystabby
09:38 / 04.07.06
i do both. i read downloads to see if i like them, then buy the trades if i do.
 
 
unbecoming
10:13 / 04.07.06

downloading music,comics,software,whatever for free is nothing short of theft...no other way to look at it,I hope you all get your houses robbed ,see how you feel about it then...


this would only be the case if the robbers made a digital reproduction of my home and then stole all the stuff from that.
 
 
unbecoming
10:16 / 04.07.06
shit. didn't realise there was 2 pages to this thread. *generic stupidity noise*
 
 
Sniv
12:26 / 04.07.06
As well, a two-page splash page leaves a bad taste in my mouth when it's on a monitor.

I'm not entirely sure about that, matt. One upside of digi-comics is that usually, when you turn the page, you don't know what's coming. In a paper publication, it's all too easy to flip through the book and spoil the lovverly splash pages. When I read Rann-Thanagar on the PC, the splash pages were incredible and surprising, and the ability to zoom in and out added to the expereince in the hectic space battle (the series was a bit poop though). Same with Doom Patrol, when I read that there was many a page click-turn where I was genuinely shocked by what I found, especially towards the end of the series when everything starts to go... well, y'know...

My point is that there are advantages and disadvantages to both print and digi-comics. Although, when star-trek style PADs become the norm, I will be in .cbz heaven...
 
 
Grady Hendrix
13:33 / 04.07.06
Downloading comics is theft. There really are no two ways around it - if you live in the US or Canada the law pretty clearly says it's theft and no amount of clever arguments can change that fact.

I download quite a few comics. I buy issues that I want to support (Ed Brubaker's DAREDEVIL, THE ULTIMATES, THE WALKING DEAD until recently - now I download TWD because I got so bored with it) and I buy big fancy hardcover comics that I want to own. My personal justification is that downloading is no different from what I used to do which was stand in Barnes and Noble reading trade paperbacks for free (sorry, but that's how I read SEAGUY).

I'm sure everyone has their own personal justifications, but the biggest issue with digital comics that should be dealt with isn't the morality, or name and shame tactics, or anything other than the fact that this is a missed market. Just as music downloading was rampant before Apple figured out the best way to profit off of it, and trans-Atlantic literary piracy was rampant in the 19th Century before folks improved distribution in order to profit off it, comics downloading is an indication that there's a market that no one is exploiting. The second a major (Marvel or DC) starts making old and new comics available at a low price point, in an accepted format (probably .cbr), using some kind of unobtrusive watermarking to decrease the chance of piracy, is the second they'll probably start to rake in piles of cash.

Consumers of culture are always ahead of distributors and producers of culture and at this point it's the major company's opportunity to lose.

If I was a comics creator I wouldn't take the Metallica route and blame the fans for downloading my works for free. Instead I would have steam shooting out my ears that the major comics companies are depriving me of a potentially terrific stream of revenue and royalties because they're scared of new technology.
 
 
stabbystabby
23:32 / 04.07.06
weeeell... i'm not so sure. mp3's can be converted back into a reasonable facsimile of the original, so you can argue that's theft. (though, regardless of the legal judgement, that's a contentious argument)

But comics - i tend to think it's more like distributing prints of a painting. Distributing the prints doesn't take away from the value of the original, but the artist may get miffed that they don't get a cut of the profits of the print sales. And it's pretty hard (and expensive) to print out scanned comics.

I think there's something to the argument that with the explosion of cultural expression, it's impossible to afford, monetarily and spacially, to have hard copies of all the media you consume - but it's culturally necessary to keep abreast of pop culture. (at least in my field) i love to have my comic collection with me, but i'm not loading 500 cds and my TPBs of Preacher, Invisibles, Transmet, etc with me every time i go travelling.
 
 
Mario
23:45 / 04.07.06
I've only ever downloaded comics, and that for one of three reasons.

1) It's unavailable legally. (Miracleman)

2) I already own it, and want a backup copy.

3) I'm curious about the comic, but can't make it to my store/it's sold out. I usually delete these afterwards.

The legality is dubious, I admit.
 
 
stabbystabby
05:03 / 05.07.06
i'm in a similar position - i have transmet and invisibles on my shelf, so i don't feel bad having them on my pc. i have miracleman too, but would gladly pay Alan Moore for a legal copy. i do also have comics i intend to buy as TPBs when they come out. I have downloaded stuff like Liberality, just to see what it's about, but i have no intention of paying for (or keeping) that shite.

how do you think downloading scans compares to buying second hand comics? the artist makes no extra money either way, but there's no prohibition on buying second hand comics.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
06:16 / 05.07.06
I've bought the DVDs that have all of the different Marvel series on them, and just picked up the Deadworld CD, but find I have a lot of troubel reading them, simply because I want to have something physical in my hand so that I can lay on the futor or outside in the summer sun and read something lazily instead of at my computer, where I feel I should be more productive.

But, I love the format, and wish companies would use it to get their older, less popular inventory out for p[eople who'd like to read runs of House of Secrets or the other 70's horror books, or Marvel's Westerns and monster comics.
 
 
stabbystabby
12:01 / 05.07.06
are you buying these on ebay? i'm presuming these aren't official cd collections....
 
 
The Falcon
15:08 / 05.07.06
No, I think Marvel have released official CD-Roms, or whatever it is, of Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four #1-500. Whether that's what Solitaire's reading, I dunno...
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
15:45 / 05.07.06
Yep, they are official releases. Marvel has put out Amazing Spider-Man, Uncanny X-Men, Avengers and Fantastic Four, and Deadworld just came out last week from the publisher.

There are also some from Pure Imagineation that are releases of Public Domain material, which is probably the best way for small publishers to do this, rather than in comics that go for $6 for 32 pages.
 
 
stabbystabby
00:43 / 06.07.06
oh, cool, i hadn't heard of these. what format are they in? not pdf's, are they?
 
 
matthew.
05:15 / 06.07.06
I think the Spider-Man one is in .pdf. That's why I didn't buy it! .pdf blows chunks.
 
 
the credible hulk
05:46 / 06.07.06
Yeah, .pdf is AWFUL. I think CBR is a pretty great format, as simple as it is (renamed .rar files). Maybe it's just the simplicity of the software, but it does EXACTLY what it's intended to, extremely quickly and with a surprising array of program options.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
07:35 / 06.07.06
I download comics. A lot of comics, actually. I delete them if they're shit, and buy them if they're available in trade. I like to torrent comics to keep up with whatever godawful crossover is going on at the moment, and to read old series that I missed and aren't traded.

I consider downloading comics to be the same as borrowing a stack of issues from one of my buddies. All of my comics-reading friends live far, far away these days, so I borrow (download) comics from my new buddies (random people on bittorrent) and then give them back (delete them) after I've read them. If I find something I really like, I'll buy it. Reading comics on a laptop isn't a patch on reading a trade, in my opinion. It's like watching a low-res clip on YouTube compared to watching a movie in a theater or a big-ass TV. It's more of a teaser than anything else. I actually think I buy more comics now that I torrent them than I did previously.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
13:40 / 06.07.06
I want to second the previous post: before I started downloading comics I was buying one title per month (THE ULTIMATES). Now I download like a fiend and I buy 5 titles each month, on average.
 
 
Spaniel
19:28 / 06.07.06
The Ultimates comes out every month?
 
 
Jester
21:09 / 06.07.06
BUT... you can't see the entire page layout with your eye unless you zoom out, and then you can't read the dialogue. As well, a two-page splash page leaves a bad taste in my mouth when it's on a monitor.

I agree: I'll read the odd downloaded comic, but it's really awkward and unsatisfying. Generally, I've only read downloaded comics 1) when the material hasn't been published yet (like Lost Girls), or 2) when it's utterly mainstream and I wouldn't buy the comic if I didn't have the option of a download (like, umm... the entire collection of Buffy comics).

As for the idea that comics are overly expensive: yes, I agree, in terms of reading material, it's a lot to pay for a slender 5-10 minutes read. But if you think about it in terms of the huge effort that goes into producing panel on panel of art, it starts to seem like a better deal.
 
 
benchcoat
19:09 / 07.07.06
downloading comics is evil! Exterminators writer Simon Oliver posted a link to a torrent for all the current issues of his series encouraging downloads in the hopes of getting new readers. I did, it was great, I've bought all the back issues, and I'll get each new one as it comes out. It was like hearing a great band do an in-studio on the radio--I'd had a sample and I wanted more.

I've downloaded some old comics that I could never afford--like some 40's issues of Whiz comics, but if cheap reprints appear, I'd buy them in the future.

I'm unsure about downloading new comics--if I like a comic, it'll lead to me spending more money on comics. The Athena Voltaire crew hooked me with their web comic, leaving me primed to buy when they produced a paper version.

I think that comics may be better inoculated to harm from digital piracy than some other media due to the mind set of many comic readers. Many readers, like me, prefer to have the physical comics to read, even if I've got the option of a digital copy. Additionally, those with the collector mentality must have the actual issue.

I can think of two factors could lead to digital comics hurting the comic companies. If younger readers encounter comics as primarily a digital medium, they may not have the same drive to get hard copies as older readers. Digital comics also give the reader an opportunity to read the comic before buying it, and if the comic is an inferior product, it won't garner purchases from those who are merely curious.
 
 
Bamba
11:25 / 08.07.06
Like, it seems, a lot of people here, I download comics. In fact I remember being rather excited when I found out you actually could after years spent assuming it would be impossible for that medium to make the leap to some kind of electronic format (unlike music and videos which easily do ouf course). On a moral front it is distinctly dodgy, I'm consuming for fee something that I should be paying for. But, I salve my conscience by knowing that if I couldn't download stuff I just wouldn't read it. And I know this because that's exactly what I did for the year before I found Z-Cult, then the rather wondrous Demonoid.

It's just too expensive a habit basically. I can't be fucked with individual issues (in the same way I won't watch a TV series until it's been collected in DVD box set format) and with TPBs coming in at around £8 for one I can't afford that shit. I could, and have, devoured stuff like Transmetropolitan or Lucifer in a couple of nights but it would cost me around £80 to buy the full set of TPBs, and that's just not an amount of money I'm willing to spend in exchange for that amount of entertainment frankly. Other people are of course and that's cool but personally I'm not. After briefly getting into buying comics when I was younger I gave up completely once I realised the pure expense involved and that was it until my moment of BitTorrent enlightenment. I can also say for sure that if the entire comic downloading scene disappeared tomorrow I'd sigh disappointedly and go back to just not reading them again.

So, is what I do wrong? Inarguably. But does my downloading of comics actually deprive anyone of money I'd otherwise be throwing their way? Not in this case.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
13:54 / 09.07.06
You're right - I was only buying ULTIMATES every other month. Depressing.

Judging from the posts on this thread it would be really interesting for someone to do some real market research on downloading. I'd be curious to see answers to:

- do people download more new comics, or more old comics?
- do they download items that aren't readily available in other formats?
- do they have a local comic shop nearby?
- do they buy more comics now that they download or less?
- do their buying patterns change because they download?
- do they pick up series that they sample via downloading? How much does this happen?
- do they drop any series that they now only download?
- are they more likely to be more selective in their real-world purchases now that they download?
- what companies do they download from (more Marvel? More DC? More independent?)
- what format do they prefer?
- what price point or structure would they be willing to adopt to download comics?

I wonder if there's any way to set up a survey on Barbelith that folks could fill out and that could be tabulated down the road so that, for once, some real statistics about downloading patterns could get out there?

I'd be happy to put something together if there was a way to host it here. We could be on the cutting edge! And wear spacesuits!
 
 
matthew.
18:56 / 09.07.06
As long as that edge doesn't cut my spacesuit. I kind of like my oxygen.
 
 
Thorn Davis
07:44 / 10.07.06
"Downloading comics, whether you think it's morally wrong or not, is not the same as robbing someone's house and if I have to explain the difference between the two acts then either you're not thinking hard enough or you're suffering from a worrying failure of empathy towards those that have actually been burgled."

I suppose it's not literally exactly the same act, but I think this maybe shows a 'worrying failure of empathy' to those who've been victims of copyright theft. I've been burgled and that was as sickening and miserable an experience as people often suggest. However the first time I went online and found stuff I'd written being distributed by someone else (for profit in some cases), I was steaming mad. There's a kind of wretched ongoing helplessness to being a victim of copyright theft, which replaces the intrusive feeling of having your house broken into. Different, but equally unpleasant.

That aside, I'm suprised so many people here seem to prefer the experience of reading comics on screen. I remember when Marvel used to have stuff available on their website (maybe they still do?) and reading off the screen seemed like an extremely poor substitute. Aside from eye-strain, difficulty in enjoying two pages splashes etc, there's more basic problems. For example, it's kind of hard to kick back with a book when you're reading it on screen. I'm sure a lot of people enjoy putting their feet up on the sofa and chilling out with their books, something it's physically difficult to do with a PC.
 
 
Bamba
09:14 / 10.07.06
That aside, I'm suprised so many people here seem to prefer the experience of reading comics on screen. I remember when Marvel used to have stuff available on their website (maybe they still do?) and reading off the screen seemed like an extremely poor substitute. Aside from eye-strain, difficulty in enjoying two pages splashes etc, there's more basic problems. For example, it's kind of hard to kick back with a book when you're reading it on screen. I'm sure a lot of people enjoy putting their feet up on the sofa and chilling out with their books, something it's physically difficult to do with a PC.

I doubt your last point there's something anyone would argue, being 'tied' to the computer to read comics is a bit of a pain when you'd rather, I dunno, lie in bed with them or whatever. Having a laptop would maybe help a bit, add some of that portability that's missing, but I don't have one, and wouldn't even think about justifying buying one just for this, so I can't say for sure if it is much better in that regard. All that said, I've got a nice 19" TFT and when using CDisplay to read these things I don't find it any more of a hardship than reading anything else on screen. The scans are always high res and stretch nicely to fill your entire screen (no task bars or other shit on view at all) so I find I can still get lost in reading comics as I could do with a printed one in front of me. And the pages actually come out bigger than life size so an argument could be made against eye strain maybe? I dunno though, I'm on slightly dodgy ground with that one I realise. Anyway, when you see comics displayed without any of the usual desktop objects to ruin the immersion it does give a good impression of literally just being comic pages floating there in front of you is what I'm saying, although I agree that I don't think it's actually better than having a printed copy to leaf through.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
11:35 / 10.07.06
I have a laptop and it is a really enjoyable way to read comics, except for how hot it gets after being on for a couple of hours.

Also, if one of these digital book things takes off I'll be all over it like white on rice for reading digital comics. But there aren't any of them out there that I'm convinced will last.
 
 
Essential Dazzler
12:43 / 10.07.06
I totally agree that selling digital copies on Ebay and the like is wrong, but how different is me downloading a comic to borrowing it from a friend, reading it in the store, buying it second hand, or borrowing it from the library. I any of those instances creators make no money from me reading the work.
That question is less rhetorical than it sounds.
 
 
Bamba
12:48 / 10.07.06
I totally agree that selling digital copies on Ebay and the like is wrong, but how different is me downloading a comic to borrowing it from a friend, reading it in the store, buying it second hand, or borrowing it from the library. I any of those instances creators make no money from me reading the work.

I suppose the difference is that you get to keep a permanent copy of it. The upside of buying rather than borrowing something is that it's yours to keep and do whatever you want with, something that only the downloading method has in common with actually purchasing the thing.
 
  

Page: 1(2)3

 
  
Add Your Reply