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Woman-friendly Barbelith

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20:58 / 15.03.06

More temple references:

This post on Occult groups advises "attractive women" to check whether they may need to have sex with men of the Occult groups choosing.

Just noting it really.

10:10 / 16.03.06

'cause, you know, if you're an attractive woman and you're looking for an occult group, you're doing it for the sex, obviously, and that means you shouldn't settle for groups that make you fuck exceptionally ugly men; stick to the mediocre ones!

Where do these ideas come from? To be more concise, where do I apply the napalm and matches?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:11 / 16.03.06

To be fair, sexual exploitation of n00bs by unscrupulous groups and individuals is an issue. But yeah, I agree that the post in question could have been phrased a bit better.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:52 / 19.03.06

Le sigh.

Edited to say: The c-words were originally intact until I splatted them. Teh fachist mod, ect.

08:43 / 24.03.06

Am I being unnecessary? I can't tell.

I hate picking people up on things but I'm trying to do it more often (see also the thread on JT Leroy and James Frey in Books, where it had absolutely zero effect, but I wasn't sure whether I was right there either). I don't know whether I'm doing it effectively or not though. Help!

09:09 / 24.03.06

No, you're being splendid, clear and friendly-without-collusion, and bonzoid is being a git. (I was going to back you up on the James Frey thread, btw, but got too exhausted at the thought, so thanks for raising the point in the first place - if nothing else those two interventions and the responses thereto are really bringing home to me Nina's original points about the invisibility/acceptability of casual sexism/misogynist language on the board.)

09:25 / 24.03.06

Good, I am glad. I know what you mean about it bringing the point hom as well. I told Nina ages ago that I wasn't sure whether Barbelith was sexist, and I said in this thread that I hadn't encountered much sexism myself, and that I thought it had something to do with personal style - but having tried to intervene, and having encountered one dismissive response and one defensive one, I am rapidly re-evaluating all these things.

11:37 / 29.03.06

Bonzoid regrouped nicely.

09:16 / 30.03.06

Yes, that was really positive - I felt very heartened after that.

23:06 / 31.03.06

I have a big issue with Kovacs under the guise of Miss Wonderstarr, specifically here in the Gives me a Happy thread, commenting on how hir 'did his nails' whilst waiting for the puppy to not die.

I freely acknowledge that Kovac's name change made me feel uncomfortable from the beginning, but I was unsure as to why. In the thread about it people suggested that they didn't have a problem with the experiment if he was open and honest about it. This hasn't happened. Posters not in the know are already referring to Kovacs as 'she' and they have not been corrected. I think somewhere someone suggested that people should not deliberately be misled, and they are being.

Quite why this matters to me I don't know, maybe 'I'm doing my nails' is all part of Kovac's experiment but personally I feel affronted. What it feels like to me is a male poster in the guise of a female making comments which he deems 'fit' the female suit because they're frippery and 'that's what females do'.

I've asked Kovacs about this in the thread already but I think I've probably made things difficult in doing so. By saying no, Kovacs will be agreeing that he is stereotyping women. It's likely he may claim this is the point of his experiment.

I absolutely admit to have been waiting like a tiger ready to pounce on the Miss Wonderstarr suit, but I really don't think it's helping the site, or female or male posters. It doesn't appears to be a useful thing for anyone other than Kovacs who appears to be getting his jollies out of it by not correcting anyone presuming him to be female, and by pretending what women mainly do is paint their nails.

miss wonderstarr

06:25 / 01.04.06

I was buffing my nails. But I don't feel I should post on this thread, so unfortunately I can't really participate any further than that: I'd like to respond, but I don't feel entitled to within this space.

miss wonderstarr

07:10 / 01.04.06

However, I will add briefly that

1. I think Barbelith should be a "safe place" for transvestites (even lapsed ones) to present as another gender and be treated courteously as such.

2. As I explained to a number of mods last week, I've recently had irl complications with someone banned from this board (for good reason) and for that reason I really wanted to cut ties with the old ID. I asked for the transvestite backstory to be edited down, too, for the same reason. I can explain that in PM. [ETA I've just realised I told you in PM, Lula, so I think it was a little insensitive of you to post the above, in that light.]

So, while it's interesting to discuss, and there would probably be an appropriate place for it, I asked for the cross-dressing thread to be locked because of reason #2 above. As I suggested in my previous post, I don't feel entitled to take up much room on this thread. However, I would like to be treated as miss wonderstarr on this board, and that is who I feel I am on here.

08:09 / 01.04.06

I absolutely admit to have been waiting like a tiger ready to pounce on the Miss Wonderstarr suit, but I really don't think it's helping the site, or female or male posters. It doesn't appears to be a useful thing for anyone other than Kovacs who appears to be getting his jollies out of it by not correcting anyone presuming him to be female, and by pretending what women mainly do is paint their nails.

I think the issue of whether or not a given poster's online identity is "helping the site" is rather a bizarre, abstruse criterion for deciding whether or not to tiger-pounce on that poster. Ditto "useful". If someone chooses to present as a particular gender, they ought to be addressed as such. I think speculation as to "jollies" is rather unnecessary, and somewhat disrespectful.

Personally speaking, I have to say I'm finding myself reacting differently to Miss Wonderstarr than I did to the previous incarnation. I'm not sure why, but I'm finding this a more pleasant person to interact with. So... for me, it is "useful", "helpful", etc. to think of her as "she".

Incidentally, where did she pretend "what women mainly do is paint their nails"? I make reference elsewhere to being unhappy with my oversized gut but I'm not 'pretending what men mainly do is express unhappiness with their oversized guts'. Has Wonderstarr's personal inexplicably become generalised, in your mind, to the political? Why?

miss wonderstarr

08:21 / 01.04.06

I have to say I'm finding myself reacting differently to Miss Wonderstarr than I did to the previous incarnation. I'm not sure why, but I'm finding this a more pleasant person to interact with

I totally agree. I have just said as much to Lula in PM. I think I clearly have issues as a man (pride, ego, thin skin, refusal to step down, drive to destroy all challengers) that are far more easy for me to overcome as a woman. Yes, that's no doubt bound up with bundles of preconceived ideas about gender in me, but that's just how it's panning out (through how I feel as wonderstarr on here, how I am responded to and how I respond in turn), not a concerted and deliberate attempt to be someone different, a fake ficsuit. I feel I am someone slightly & subtly different now, though of course still a part of the irl "me". I would like to be treated that way.

eta: ONE reference to nails (which both men and women possess, and may take care of). I have also posted a great deal of lengthy contribution to Policy this week, and also, yesterday, to Comics, which has no reference to gender in any way at all.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

08:32 / 01.04.06

And absolutely none of the above could have possibly gone in the male response thread... why?

08:34 / 01.04.06

Without wishing to take up too much space here (perhaps we need a new thread devoted to 'online gender' or somesuch?) I think that, if this thread's aiming to be "woman-friendly", that means being friendly to all women.

08:36 / 01.04.06

And absolutely none of the above could have possibly gone in the male response thread... why?

Ask Lula. I'd say "because Wonderstarr is not male".

Less searchable M0rd4nt

08:48 / 01.04.06

Fine by me, but I wasn't under the impression that wonderstarr waspresenting as female, more sort of feminised. If ze's actually presenting as female then sure, that's more complex.

08:50 / 01.04.06

I don't really understand the distinctions. The 'Miss Wonderstarr' suit is, as far as I'm aware, female ("she" rather than "ze"). 'Ganesh' isn't, however, so I'll butt out now and continue in another thread.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:22 / 01.04.06

First off, I have to say that I experienced pretty much the same reaction as Lula to the 'doing my nails' reference. I interpreted it as a male poster satirising what he saw as feminine behavior, and my scratchy button was well and truly pressed. Having calmed down a bit and exchanged a few PMs with the poster in question, I've been moved to re-think that response.

I have in the past seen male posters, here and elsewhere, don a female suit for the express purpose of attacking what they saw as female weaknesses and negative traits. The resulting grotesque never passes for long, being composed largely of misogynistic fantasy, but during its brief lifecycle it can do a lot of damage. I think that's what made me feel uncomfortable.

As I said to miss wonderstar: I think the important point was that I didn't grasp the femaleness of the wonderstarr suit and was kind of thinking of it as kovacs in mascara, which I now realise was an error. That's what upped the scratchiness of the nails thing for me--I was reading it as a comment by a male-identified poster in a feminised suit, which gives it a different flavour.

There were also a few things I didn't know about this poster's backstory, for instance that ze is keen on personal grooming ect., which again puts things in a rather different light.

09:43 / 01.04.06

Another of those innocent-until-proven-guilty benefit-of-the-doubt moments?

Apologies. Gone now.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:13 / 01.04.06

So what, it's not okay to flag or challenge something at the scratchiness level? We have to wait for outright offence?

14:13 / 01.04.06

Not that, but, perhaps, proceed with caution and PMs when one is uncertain of motive?

I wasn't at all perturbed by miss wonderstarr's post, I don't know why not - I suppose because doing ones nails and other habits of personal grooming can be done by persons of either or any gender, or because I would be quite happy to post about doing my nails myself in such a context... I think also that it would be easy to fall into an inverse trap of assuming that any poster, MI, ex-MI, FI, other, must be trying to pander to stereotype when talking about their behaviour, rather than simply describing their behaviour.

It would have been a different matter if miss w had said something along the lines of, 'I did my nails, like a girl would, do you see what I did there', but I didn't read that in the post at all.

I do take your point about female suits used by some MI posters in the past though, Mordant.

19:20 / 01.04.06

Kovacs, I only only got your PM this morning and I posted here last night.

I apologise for not considering that your post was seriously about doing your nails, to me it read as a male poster who has decided to post as female making a comment that 'sounded' female.

That's how I read it but I see now that you may not have meant it as that. I was unaware of your online life choices at the time of reading or posting.

I think I do still have a problem with posters identifying as female if they are not when they are directly referred to by gender. I don't know why. It just feels like lying I think. Is that wrong?

Ganesh, this thread really isn't for you. There is one for you to comment on this one in if you need to. Can't you post in that instead?

15:28 / 12.04.06

I'm just noticing that I never did reply to E. R9's comment:

I don't for a minute think that Barbelith's exactly a shining example of a board that appeals to the sexes equally, but I have to ask that if you honestly believe the atmosphere here is like "a men's locker-room", what on Earth do you compare the vast majority of other message boards to?

I compare them to a forum I've been on for a few years now that I consider to be home, so much so that since it's been down (beginning of January; hacker trouble) I've been really missing my friends and the general atmosphere there. It's got its problems, it's got its drama, it's got its share of idiocy and asshattery, but it's my home. I'm so comfortable with it that I've met several people from there in Real Life (tm), something I really can't see ever happening with Barbelith.

The vast majority of messageboards are places I don't post. Ever. I've seen some where posters claiming to be female are repeatedly yelled at to post pictures of their naked breasts before they'll be believed. Compared to that, Barbelith is great. Compared to the forum I do consider friendly, this place could use a bit of sprucing up.

My SO may have summed my rather conflicted feelings up when ve said that every time ve sees me reading my 'home' forum, ve feels happy, warm and cozy; every time ve sees Barbelith, ve just gets angry.

One of my recurring mental blocks is that I have a hard time accepting imperfection in my own life without at least trying to make it more perfect. If I am going to be a part of Barbelith, if I am going to post here, then I am going to point out the flaws I see and try to correct them. If that's not acceptable, please, let me know.

16:15 / 12.04.06

Thinking about it, I'm also somewhat active on LiveJournal, and I don't run into sexism there very often either (my friends know better).

Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:20 / 12.04.06

I think that's it--with Lj you're in a smaller network and you can just get rid of anyone who keeps coming out with this crap. It's different in a fairly large space like Barbelith; also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, we've just had a big influx of new members. This is a Good Thing, but in any new intake you're going to get a few vocal idiots who are congenitally incapable of grasping the idea that they might have anything to learn about their attitudes to women.

16:28 / 12.04.06

Good point. Points. However, I'm not necessarily sure that the 'boy's club' atmosphere is entirely a New Poster thing -- but as one of the New Posters myself, I don't have the experience to say one way or the other. It's certainly something I'll keep watching and thinking about, though.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:55 / 12.04.06

It could also be that I'm just not picking up on everything I should. My own feminism is kind of embrionic, really, and shaky; I sometimes half-notice things but then dismiss them before I've even allowed myself to fully acknowledge that they might be out of line. I'm sort of hypersensitised to acusations of hypersensitivity, haha.

Tryphena Absent

21:48 / 12.04.06

There's so much I could say here but actually I'm a bit too fucking sick of this place to say it properly so I'll keep it short and honest.

Celane and I suppose ER9, this is a boy's club because most of the vocal members are male, the board rests entirely on individualism and individual decisions, there aren't any moderation policies, which means everything has to be discussed and argued out and all of the arguments about how to do things are primarily between men. It's actually pretty clear cut and of course it's not about new posters, that would be to ignore the ratio of male-female posters on barbelith.

I think I just convinced myself that this thread really is a good idea.

21:52 / 12.04.06

And it's quite possible that you're just used to it, and I'm not; you know the people here, I don't. So, theoretically, you can take what people say and interpret that with all the experience with them that you have at your disposal, knowing that you are Part Of The Group and that they're Okay Folks, whereas I as New Poster come in stark blind and predisposed to be, erhm, panicky about this sort of thing. (At least in my case; I panic a lot sometimes, and, well, you know how it is in engineering. Yeah.)

But yeah, to some degree New People will always need an Acclimation Period for stupid preconceptions to be beaten out and a bit of "Ohhhhhh..." to creep in. I certainly need that on occasion!

I think it's good for all of us to examine our behaviors and why we do things the way we do on occasion, so long as it's not paralyzing.

21:56 / 12.04.06

Never mind, Nina hit it on the head.

07:17 / 13.04.06

it's been said, i'm sure, but i miss you, nina.
if your influence is something we have lost, even in part, i reckon that's a crying shame.

you may hate this place, but it loves (and possibly needs) you.

sorry.

Tryphena Absent

22:47 / 14.04.06

Thank you toksik.

Now look Shadowsax has now called a woman who may very well be a rape victim a possible "immoral attention whore." Can we please talk about this in this thread and decide what we want from barbelith in this context because the fact that he's only being treated as a moron is really beginning to do my fucking head in.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:56 / 14.04.06

Oh fuck yeah, I've just come back to this thread to post exactly that. It's got to the point where my blood starts boiling every time I see that misogynist's nick in a thread. Sorry, but I don't see why we have to put up with an apologist for violence against any group on the board.

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