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Woman-friendly Barbelith

 
  

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Saturn's nod
17:13 / 01.03.06
Celane: However, I do feel that the average male-identifying -- or, from what I've seen, neutral or trans-identifying -- poster is more apt to be perceived as an individual, whereas a female-identifying poster tends to get put in the 'WOMAN!' barrel of crabs. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, however.

Haus: Hmmm. I think a problem right now is that there is no real way to identify wrongness on this one, because the perception of barrelment is also going to be subjective. I'd like for that reason to see a place, probably a thread in the Policy, where over a length of time female-identifying posters could share perceptions and discuss what seems to them to be oppressive but unchallenged about treatment of women on Barbelith.

It's good to be positive in our revolution, let's go.
 
 
Persephone
20:48 / 01.03.06
Well, I've found that the word that you can't take away from Barbelith is cunt. I specifically mean when used as a pejorative & not as a celebratory exclamation of the ladypart. And I have witnessed people arguing that cunt doesn't mean ladypart to me, cunt means a bad person; and besides, we're used to saying it, so leave us alone. And whatever, I say cunt all the time --to indicate the ladypart, to celebrate the ladypart, and not infrequently to refer to somebody who's a real bitch. I don't care if Barbelith is a hostile environment; the fucking world is a hostile environment, and I live in it. But I don't take Barbelith seriously as a feminist space, I think that's kind of a merry joke...

See also pussy to denote a weak person.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:07 / 01.03.06
In Portuguese there's a similar thing: the word babaca used to mean, like a century ago, that same ladypart, but now it's used solely as "asshole". So much so that the original meaning has completely been forgotten.

It's weird how private bodyparts often become curse words (as in "this guy is such a dick" "asshole", etc)
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:11 / 01.03.06
Perhaps I was being intrusive there in a space I don't really belong (arrrgh, impulsive posting). I apologise for that. Should I delete it?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:53 / 01.03.06
Persephone: See also pussy to denote a weak person.

This might be a bit thread-rotty and probably deserves a thread in the Head Shop or somesuch, but it intrigues me that generally male genitalia is used to refer to mean-spirited behaviour, whereas female genitalia has a broader range of things it can signify; pussy equals limp or weak, while cunt signifies a harder-edged viciousness. Like there was a magical spectrum of vagina-behaviour compared to the single-state penis.
 
 
Olulabelle
23:33 / 01.03.06
DM, in this instance you're not being intrusive because your comment is relevant to the summary, but I would suggest that general comment on the use of gender related body parts as curses could be better placed elsewehere. I don't know if there is a relevant thread yet. There probably is but if not you could start one.

My, we're going to have so many threads because of threads at this rate.
 
 
Dead Megatron
00:00 / 02.03.06
I would suggest that general comment on the use of gender related body parts as curses could be better placed elsewehere

My point exactly. This was supposed to be a thread for women to express themselves (as said in the summary) and I derailed it.

I'll leave now
 
 
Smoothly
00:14 / 02.03.06
[Off-top]

the use of gender related body parts as curses could be better placed elsewehere. I don't know if there is a relevant thread yet.

There's this thread for starters.
 
 
Olulabelle
00:21 / 02.03.06
Thank you Smoothly.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:22 / 02.03.06
It's not so much that misogyny on the board goes unchallenged, but that I only see he same handful of posters doing the challenging. (Said challenges being followed as night follows day by accusations of political correctness gone maaaad, shrieking harpydom, being a sockpuppet of Haus', ect.)
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
12:15 / 02.03.06
(Said challenges being followed as night follows day by accusations of political correctness gone maaaad, shrieking harpydom, being a sockpuppet of Haus', ect.)

Apologies for the intrusion here, principly I'm reading this thread in an effort to understand and thus lessen my own negative impact.

Regarding the above, if that model is so prevalent then perhaps as a community we should try other methods to address the problem that lead to a less hostile resolution.
 
 
Sax
13:42 / 02.03.06
Can I just point out that with regard to the four-year-old thread Smoothly links to a couple of posts up I had a total about-turn in my thinking and usage of the word "cunt". Just in case anyone gets on my case.
 
 
Isadore
15:53 / 02.03.06
I find it interesting that, despite my perceptions of Barbelith as a 'hard-edged' sort of place, the first time I was ever actually attacked ad hominem was when I chose to identify as female in gender and speak up in response to a direct request for personal "feelings" (which I take to mean perceptions and prejudices) about misogyny on the boards. I'd commented on a similar sort of thing before in the Temple without any issue at all, but in a much more neutral fashion.

I must say, it solidified a few things. I'd say the atmosphere here is locker-room, but having never been in a men's locker room before and having had much different results when calling male friends in the Real World on their (subconscious or not) shit in mostly-male groups, I don't know that that would really suffice.

And, for the record, I don't consider myself a feminist. The very notion that women could be considered not people, or as a lesser or different group from "everyone else" (id est, men) is ... is just stupid to me, and bothers me very much every time I encounter it.
 
 
Sekhmet
17:59 / 02.03.06
Locker room? Really?

Am I an idiot, or just a very very bad feminist? Why is it that I've been here for this long and barely noticed this apparently horribly pervasive attitude?

I'm starting to wonder if I'm so thoroughly immersed in male-dominated culture that I don't even see misogyny when I'm swimming in it.

Honestly, I'm getting confused about this. It seems to me that 1) we have a few specific posters who are insensitive about feminism, 2) there have been sporadic incidents where this tendency has gotten ugly, and 3) that the board is male-dominated and therefore some areas have an aroma of testosterone about them.

But, by and large, I would hardly describe Barbelith as a "locker room" environment. That carries a connotation of sneering lewd jokes, ass-grabbing, leering, and very overt, intentionally offensive and belittling harrassment that I simply don't see here.
 
 
*
18:59 / 02.03.06
I would say "board room" rather than "locker room." I've certainly seen people be dismissive towards female posters, although it usually takes pointing out for me to get it as clearly as the women do.
 
 
Aertho
19:06 / 02.03.06
Where've people been dismissive of women? Seeing as I normally hang in Comics, I'd be hella interested in anything a woman said.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:21 / 02.03.06
Celane> I don't for a minute think that Barbelith's exactly a shining example of a board that appeals to the sexes equally, but I have to ask that if you honestly believe the atmosphere here is like "a men's locker-room", what on Earth do you compare the vast majority of other message boards to?

It's habit here to ask for specific examples of behaviours when people complain about them. I'm going to have to ask for some examples of that one.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:33 / 02.03.06
There are already more men than women posting in this thread.
Male and other non-female identifying posters... are respectfully requested to make an effort not derail or dominate the discussion. Perhaps by locker room Celane means that people tend to whip each other with wet towels when specifically asked to mind the slippery floor.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:34 / 02.03.06
what on Earth do you compare the vast majority of other message boards to?

The 19th century.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
19:50 / 02.03.06
Perhaps by locker room Celane means that people tend to whip each other with wet towels when specifically asked to mind the slippery floor.

Best description of Barbelith EVAR.

As I said, I don't believe I have ever encountered any overt misogyny on Barbelith, but I have certainly seen other people encounter it (as has been said in the Feminism 101 thread). I am not really aware of any latent misogyny directed towards me (although I believe Leap did suggest that I was like a child in a playground during the whole Leaptopia saga, which - given his position on teenage single mothers - might have been slightly sexist).

But there are definitely many more and more vocal male-identified posters on the board than there are female posters. There are many more threads dealing with relationships from a male point of view than from a female (in fact, has there ever been a Barbelith Juliet thread?). I also feel that there are different expectations of female-identified posters than of male. I feel this may be one reason why Nina, when she posts angrily, gets accused of hysteria (which, as she points out, is inherently misogynist). The female posters who seem to get most respect from the board in general, and from male-identified posters, seem to be those who post in what we view as a reasonable, 'rational' (as opposed to 'emotional' way). It seems to me that this is slightly different for male-identified posters, who can post angrily, or in the heat of the moment, without it necessarily being taken as indicative of their general character (not the right word, sorry - their general... presence... persona). The content of their posts may be taken to be badly-thought-out, or incorrect, or intellectually/culturally suspect, and this may cause some other posters to think badly of them; but they don't get called hysterical, as a general rule.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:57 / 02.03.06
has there ever been a Barbelith Juliet thread?

I don't think there has, a few requests for advice when things have been going wrong but I can't remember an undying love post.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:01 / 02.03.06
No, and perhaps that contributes to a possible locker-room atmosphere - lots of male-identified posters talking about their woman troubles, etc. I mean, plenty of female-identified posters join in, but still...
 
 
Olulabelle
20:02 / 02.03.06
The female posters who seem to get most respect from the board in general, and from male-identified posters, seem to be those who post in what we view as a reasonable, 'rational' (as opposed to 'emotional' way).

I think that's an extremely valid point and very well put Kit Kat and I would agree that there is definitely a difference of repsonse to male posters posting angrily than when female ones do so.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:51 / 02.03.06
Oh-kay. As an experiment, can we have no male-identified posters posting here for, let's say, the next 24 hours? I don't think it's unfair to provide a single piece of female-oriented space on Barbelith, and I'm a little disappointed that male-identified posters are having such trouble letting that happen. Can we stick to reading but not posting for a bit? Possibly the findings of this thread could then be discussed in another, co-ed thread...
 
 
Olulabelle
00:25 / 03.03.06
Thank you Haus.
 
 
alas
11:41 / 03.03.06
Ummmm--I'm not so sure about this call by Haus for this to not be a thread open to male contributors. Would I feel different if a woman had made that call? Fuck I don't know at this point...

I don't care if Barbelith is a hostile environment; the fucking world is a hostile environment, and I live in it. But I don't take Barbelith seriously as a feminist space, I think that's kind of a merry joke...

Ok. But is it inevitably anything? We're humans, we make choices. We decide how we're going to interact. Choices are made under pressure, and are shaped by history, but we make them.

Cynicism like this is useful on an ego level, I'll grant you, but it's basically a reactionary gesture.

Kit-Kat's point seems accurate to me.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:04 / 03.03.06
The problem with this thread is that you can't identify which experiences were primarily effected by your gender or necessarily remember when you were identified as expressing some sort of hysteria so what do I write here? My perceptions have already been shared, what we need is a discussion on how we approach these instances in the future. Pointing them out before hasn't done me any good, look at what happened in the Poliakoff thread, people chose to ignore it instead of pointing out that using sexist language about a character is unreasonable, instead of supporting me in any way personally. Because apparently I can cope with that sort of thing and people who can cope don't need to hear that others agree with them. Well that is just such utter shit. I layed into Deva a few months ago because I was so upset by all of this and had got to the point where I was actually completely incapable of separating different types of a lack of support, different types of criticism out from one another. You see, we're actually people and not magic balls of coping mechanism.

Accusations of hysteria have happened to me too consistently to pick out very specific occasions and often by people who I don't generally have a problem with (Yawn and Gumbitch stand out).

I'm sorry this post is very angry but I just don't understand why it took a fucking thread on feminism after 4 years of consistent bad treatment of me to get anyone to admit that perhaps they should have helped or even fucking noticed that people were behaving in this way. Normal, reasonable people. I'm 24 years old, I'm at least 5 years younger than most of the women who are prepared to ask other people here to shut up and tell them they're being sexist. I was 19 when I arrived here and I can't even count the times that people have applied the idea of emotional hysteria to me. Probably at least once every 3 months. I think it's fucking sick that we haven't spoken about this before, that I waited this long to say something. It took Qwik to kick the Feminism thread off, would anything except another accusation of hysteria have happened if he hadn't inadvertently supported the point? I actually doubt it. This is how I feel about barbelith, it has its moments, I even like it but I am so thoroughly disappointed by it.
 
 
alas
14:08 / 03.03.06
Nina: I'm watching my own emotions as I read what you just wrote. And thinking that it was years and years in a male-dominated academic scene that has trained my modes of argumentation and response, not always for the better.

I have learned that, as Kit Kat said: The female posters who seem to get most respect from the board in general, and from male-identified posters, seem to be those who post in what we view as a reasonable, 'rational' (as opposed to 'emotional' way). It seems to me that this is slightly different for male-identified posters, who can post angrily, or in the heat of the moment, without it necessarily being taken as indicative of their general character (not the right word, sorry - their general... presence... persona). The content of their posts may be taken to be badly-thought-out, or incorrect, or intellectually/culturally suspect, and this may cause some other posters to think badly of them; but they don't get called hysterical, as a general rule.

This is also true of my workplace (so much so I feel like KitKat's been to faculty meetings), so this is partly why I care about this topic so much.

And it's also a class issue, because the most successful female voices in that environment are the ones who conform to class-based (and, in this case, regional/geographic) expectations of behavior, which means the women who get the most respect are, of course, neither the administrative assistants (despite that some of them have advanced degrees), nor the custodial crew, who often have a very clear view of things going on in the institution, but even, beyond that, my colleague from a huge, urban Irish-Catholic family who has the "credentials" (the good school, the right dissertation adviser) & an intellect like a razor, but who doesn't mince words, has been pretty much written off by a good number of our peers and superiors as an unreasoning, manhating bitch. Purely on style, really, and its a style that has gendered and class markers.

So what to do? Questions like this throw me into a bit of a tailspin, which is good. My style is something I work pretty hard on. A purely rational style cuts me off from the most important places of my own knowing, so I know that that's not what I do exactly, but I work pretty hard to stay calm and put my reaction in words that I think have the best chance of being "heard," and won't simply serve to reinforce existing divisions or distract from the larger goals.

However, I really wouldn't want the whole world to sound like me, wouldn't want all of Barbelith to sound like me, and frankly. I'm not sure I always want to sound like me...
 
 
Babooshka
14:19 / 03.03.06
Accusations of hysteria have happened to me too consistently to pick out very specific occasions...

...I just don't understand why it took a fucking thread on feminism after 4 years of consistent bad treatment of me to get anyone to admit that perhaps they should have helped or even fucking noticed that people were behaving in this way...

...I was 19 when I arrived here and I can't even count the times that people have applied the idea of emotional hysteria to me. Probably at least once every 3 months. – Nina


Perhaps if you indulged in less angry outbursts (such as your above post) at the indulgence of your fellow board members, and faced the fact that four years of consistent criticism of your posting style perhaps means you need to modify your posting style, things would go easier for you. I haven't dealt with you in three years; by the looks of your current posts, there surprisingly isn't much growth or change in how you relate to people - especially those you have cause to disagree with for whatever reason.

Feminism isn't about demanding special treatment, or suggesting sexism when someone chooses to minimize engagement with you. Feminism is about treating people as people, and taking responsibility for oneself as a person in one's dealings with others. Nobody is responsible for your behavior but YOU, and nobody has to make allowances for you because you're female or you're younger. The onus is on you – as a person – to communicate effectively so that others will respond. If people aren't responding to you in a way that you'd like, placing blame elsewhere will only go so far.

It might perhaps be too much to expect my words to be seen as they are, as opposed to some personal vendetta against you due to unpleasantness between us in 2003. My history with this board is a chequered one, and not altogether pleasant to the memory. Barbelith was my very first experience with online communication, and it would be easy for me to use that as an excuse for mistakes I made in dealing with problematic situations here. It would also be convenient for me to claim that, because I am female and non-white, I was treated unfairly by other members.

The fact of the matter is, I was – and AM – very uncompromising, and will not hesitate to speak my mind if I feel there's a problem that needs airing. That caused me more difficulties on Barbelith than anything else – that I wouldn't shut up about something that was causing me distress, and my not shutting up was making others uncomfortable. In the end I left, which was best for all concerned. While it's fair to say that the problems I encountered did not disappear from Barbelith when I left, I accept responsibility for not being more effective in articulating my situation.

I'm not suggesting that you follow my example – every person is different, and handles things in her/his own way. Whether or not you choose to take a break from Barbelith is your own decision to make. But own your experience, and take responsibility for your behaviors and actions. Don't make excuses or automatically expect allowances or understanding from others. And if something clearly isn't working, change it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:45 / 03.03.06
Does anyone agree with her?

Might as well get it all out now, the whole idea that I think I deserve some kind of special treatment that's different to anyone else. That my posting style is over-emotional... come on, take a fucking shot.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:58 / 03.03.06
I'm just not going to pretend this is okay anymore. I'm fucking sick to the back teeth, I'm sick of being the person who dares say something. I'm sick of dealing with people like this.
 
 
ibis the being
15:05 / 03.03.06
Well, no, and actually faced the fact that four years of consistent criticism of your posting style perhaps means you need to modify your posting style, things would go easier for you is the kind of suggestion that could be and in fact has been aimed at a male poster like Haus. But he's never, as far as I can recall (which admittedly is not very far), been accused of hysteria or a failure to reign in his emotions. And seriously, the "go easier for you" bit is an almost stereotypical intimidation tactic.

I'm glad that Nina started the Feminism thread, because it's an issue that's been raised only in passing in threads engaged primarily with other subjects ("it" being misogyny on Barbelith) and was pretty much always summarily dismissed. Even by me. I admit that as a female not only here or more generally online, but also in real life social interaction, my habitual coping mechanism in the face of misogyny is to join the boys' club and try to hide, basically. I'm not proud of that, but at times it's "made things go easier for me."
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:12 / 03.03.06
It might perhaps be too much to expect my words to be seen as they are, as opposed to some personal vendetta against you due to unpleasantness between us in 2003.

A good way for people to assess this might be to consider whether "four years of consistent criticism of your posting style" is a fair and accurate description of how Nina's posts have been responded to on the board in general. Or indeed what choosing the approach you've chosen in the thread you've chosen as your return to the board after an extended absence might say about your priorities.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:05 / 03.03.06
Christ.

For the record, Baboushka, no, I don't agree with your summation of the situation.

And I first want to use this thread to salute NS for bothering to keep plugging away at this one in the face of alot of suspicion and outright holistility.

I've felt 'icky' about the othering and belittling of women that seems to be part of the Barbelith culture for quite a while, but it took N pointing it out to me repeatedly for me to acknowledge how serious it was.

I also didn't know how to raise it, so had been trying to work out what for me would be the 'right' way to do that.

Obviously I hadn't got very far with that, and so the culture wasn't being challenged.

And I wonder how much of that was wanting to present in the 'right' voice, the most acceptable voice, in much the same way as Alas describes above. Probably quite alot.

So I thank Nina for having the guts, and perseverance to keep fighting. For bringing the way the Barbelith culture Others women out into the open.



Okay, my view, part of which I've said on another thread.

There are the well-documented cases of outright mysogyny and statements which are hateful towards women. Which are responded to but.

a - as MC notes, only by the same few posters. That isn't an objection from a culture or a society and doesn't read as such.

Those posters find themselves feeling responsible for catching every example of mysogyny, and gain a reputation for in the best version 'doing the job so others don't have to' and in the worst 'being the PC police' etc etc.

So in becoming one of the posters who deals with this, one takes on extra job or work, and, I would say, gets more credit for it if one is a man.

How many times has one of the female id'd posters been valorised for 'fighting the good fight' in a way that some of the high profile male id'd posters regularly are?

This should not be about individual posters. It should be (and the 101 thread is finally beginning to make it) about the response of a society/community.

About examining Barbelith culture as participants and creators of it.

And when we're talking about the way it is embedded in the culture of Barbelith we need to be talking about a large-scale shift in the reopsnse, not the continued vigilance of a few posters.

b - I note that while we've banned people for anti-Semitism and other forms of racism, and discussed it and warned people 'officially'/deleted& locked regarding homophobic comments, we haven't thus far had such an official response/discussion to the casual throwing around of terms like 'slag' and 'bitch', nor to the more sustained mysogyny found in threads like Shadowsax's.

Which says to me that we, as a community do take anti-women hatespeech less seriously than other forms of the same things

And that is WRONG

There are lots of other comparisons to be made: the anger of a Flyboy or a Jack Fear is lauded as righteousness, sometimes critiques but more often laughed about in a 'go you'/'see the man swing his weapon of right and humour'* kind of why.

Why is the anger of a Nina Skrty not described like this. Why is it 'hysteria', and to be minimised/ignored/'told to go away/shut up

And as serveral people have pointed out the use of 'hysteria' to describe a women's anger is an inherently mysogynistic turn. Because hysteria is about nervous complaints, most often associated with 'the weaker sex' and is basically a short way of saying 'the problem is with you. And it's because you are a woman'.

See also, because you speak in a certain stylised way, it being okay to call someone a 'pussy'. Will dig for a specific example, but Jack Fear, I'm looking at you here.

Okay, gotta go, but there's gonna be more.

Again, I thank NS for getting this started.



* ok, I'm exaggerating slightly, but the point stands. And I'm sure Flyboy will understand that I'm not 'getting at him', or suggesting he post differently.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:19 / 03.03.06
Thank you everyone.
 
  

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