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False Images Of Oz (in British advertising and culture)

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
01:00 / 04.02.06
(This started off as a reply to Olulabelle's post in the switchboard but it grew. It's quite long, so feel free to pick and choose bits to take up the argument. I see this thread as a broad discussion kept at headshop standard. There are some related threads here and here. )

I've often thought that in the UK we have a dangerous false image of Australia as a sort of paradise continent (I'll try and run through the signifiers, and would like you to reply to agree or disagree with the proposition or just generally give your thoughts. Having never been to Australia, I can't claim to know "the truth" about it, and the following is from a UK perspective having spoken to some Australian students and reading various internet pages).

The word Australia, in Britain, conjures up a scene showing jungle, mountains, and desert (powerful nature which is there for our viewing pleasure), kangaroos, crocodiles and spiders (bizarre primeval fauna, a biological monster show which is dangerous yet controlled) topped off with a load of happy, good looking white people in cork hats (the men) and bikinis (the women) sitting around a barbecue and drinking beers (they are descended from us, of course; but these people do not lead mundane lives of toil like us, they have conquered paradise, surviving all it's dangers, they have had their weak stripped away; physically, sexually and existentially they are become a kind of north-european ubermensch).

Hence we have this whole industry built around this shorthand for primacy- holiday flights to Oz, Foster's beer which is sold on the basis of it being Australian, clothing lines (e.g. Airwalk) that draw on the imagery of extreme sports and surfing and aim to make the brand synonymous with the assumed "lifestyle", and of course the TV programs Neighbours, Home and Away and Steve Irwin: Crocodile Hunter.

To get a handle on this, compare it to the received image, of say, Brazil- there are still jungles and snakes and spiders but they are dangerous and unhealthy, untamed; the people who live there are seen as either mad, over-emotional and dangerously sexual whilst being kitsch half-whites (the spanish), or dark-skinned and primitive and into "voodoo" and virgin sacrifices (the indigenous peoples, when they are seen at all).

Hence Brazil, or Brazillian-ness, is harder to use as a selling point than Australia. While to an extent Brazil as a place can be sold to the young and self-identified "adventurous" consumer of holidays as an "extreme experience", Brazil the place is only really good for providing shorthand "dangerous" environments for game shows or adventure serials and it's people will either be devious "false-westerners" who try to trick the hero (the Spanish), exotic and devilish one night stands of either sex (any number of adverts for latin-style alchoholic drinks), or nameless Tribal Warriors who get in the hero's way and who he will kill in the hundreds as he tries to get his hands on the secret artefact.

Moving back to Australia, what we don't appreciate, what is hidden and played down and what might well "break the spell", is firstly the genuine present of Australia, specifically the recent racism but more generally the unemployment, alchoholism, teenage pregnancy and in fact all of the other problems which affect northern Europe today (Home and Away is no more a realistic depiction of a country than The OC); and secondly, the atrocity-ridden history that lies behind Australia.

This includes the destruction of entire species of animals, some of them the last surviving of their lineages, wiped out in the space of a few decades. And which animals were wiped out? The ones which were actually dangerous, in any real sense, to humanity: yes, a crocodile or a spider might kill a human being, but it was the Thylacine's predation of sheep flocks that posed the real threat to (white) humanity's presence, and it was hounded down; to true extinction, at a conservative estimate, or to practical extinction at a liberal one.

This gives the lie to the image of the modern Australian hu(man) living in constant conflict with dangerous nature, and thus constantly proving his manhood, because the animals which are there now do not present a serious threat to him on anything more than the individual level. Even these have been killed away to the point where they are a curiosity, barely more than a hold-over from pre-human history. In a test of dominant animal species, most of Australia comes up flies, not Crocodiles (in much the same way that India comes up flies not Tigers, or England comes up flies not Wild Boar, Russia flies not Bears). A person in Birmingham, UK, is more likely to get ill from an insect-transmitted disease than a person in Australia is to be eaten by a Crocodile.

A similar fringe state is occupied by the easily anthropomorphised animals (the Kangaroo) or the quirky and "cute" (the Koala) that serve so well to sell products with (cuddly toys, Skippy, Roo & Kanga).

This past also, of course, includes the anihilation of Australia's indigenous peoples. Let's get a figure, here: 90% of the indigenous population was lost between 1788 and 1900. That's one in ten.

You may think it odd to mention this human loss of life after mentioning the environmental changes that the westerners brought, because, in the conventions of our writing, it suggests a lower status. I'm not trying to confer this status at all; I'm relying on you to have this reaction because it helps to realise exactly how the Aborigines were thought of by the Westerners: as less important than sheep.

The main point is that this past and the present to which it constantly contributes are nearly always absent from our images of Australia, and in the absence of genuine experience the false images take centre, and then total, stage. Why is this bad? I think we all know but I'd like to see someone else phrase it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:46 / 04.02.06
I'd like to come back to this later, but Legba - as a point of info, Brazil is a Portuguese rather than a Spanish-speaking nation. Also, I think the voodo/virgin sacrifice stereotypes are not generally ascribed to the indigenous peoples, but rather to the descendants of a different group of people who were imported into Brazil.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:50 / 04.02.06
There's a pretty amusing/odd other half to that Brit false idealisation of Australia: here in Oz, people have this idea of British backpackers (those who journey here seeking the image, Steve Irwin, crocodiles, etc) as total losers. They lob on yr floor for years; they're obnoxious, they drink; they're stupid, they don't wear sunscreen and are either all-pale or badly sunburnt, etc Now, the British travellers I've met have always been very lovely, and intelligent, not like that at all. (Maybe it's cuz of who I hang out with...) But there's a certain Australian resistance to that idealisation, is what I'm trying to point out.
 
 
trouble at bill
16:59 / 04.02.06
Will also come back to this I hope - this is a fascinating thread, and the line about the ubermensch is one of the most intriguing suggestions I've seen here on the 'Lith for some time, so thanks Mr Rex. For now, if I may continue the factual pedantry for a second, Candomblé, not voodoo is the religion in question, associated as Haus rightly points out with the black residents of the country, not the indiginous population. Also on a political note, while it is great to see Mr Disco back, I am not entirely comfortable with the use of a smiley and the word "amusing" in the context of what is surely negative national or ethnic stereotyping? The relations between white Australians and British immigrants or visitors have sometimes been and sometimes still can be a relatively unharmonious one, or so "winging pom" relatives of mine who emigrated to Oz in the 1950's claim. But anyway, back onto topic...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
21:44 / 04.02.06
To Haus and Bogg: yes, you're both right in your corrections. I should have made it clearer that I wasn't absolutely au fait with the exact nature of the generalisations, and in doing so I've made a few of my own. Thanks for pointing them out.

Would also like to add that, in case it wasn't clear, this isn't an attack against Australia itself, it's about how people in the UK see it and how people use stereotypes to sell stuff.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:30 / 05.02.06
I am not entirely comfortable with the use of a smiley and the word "amusing" in the context of what is surely negative national or ethnic stereotyping?

Hey Bilious, it's quite possible that I am a descendant of your relatives who emigrated to Australia in the 50's. Me Da came from Liverpool on a boat when he was five. The smiley wasn't meant to indicate straight amusement at ethnic stereotyping. More of a wry amusement at the total discursive confusion seething under the surface of what might seem a fairly simple relationship between Britons and Australian colonisers.

To put the boot on the other foot for a moment, our publicly-owned broadcaster seems to be stuck repeating the same mid-50's period British rural comedy/dramas -- "The Grass Is Greener" is one, I think. Resulting in the fantasy that Britain is full of apple orchards, stone walls, rustic farmers wearing galoshes, Tudor cottages, etc. I imagine your response to that might be similar to my response to 'Neighbours' or Steve Irwin.
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:08 / 06.02.06
Neighbours is great at the moment! You should really watch it.
 
 
Loomis
07:46 / 06.02.06
Is it really news to anyone that holiday brochures and tv shows aren't the most accurate source of information about a country? Is anyone really surprised to learn that Australia is a normal country with all the pros and cons of most Western countries?
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:56 / 06.02.06
Whilst there may be a generalised mis-conception of Australians in the media, I don't really think it's accurate to suggest that the British view the country through a distorted "Crocodile Dundee" cultural lens. I'd suggest that the reason that the wildlife and scenery gets so much attention is because it is so different from what we have in the British Isles.

From my own perspective, I've always been fascinated by the Barrier Reef. When I did the whole backpacker thing back in 2001, going diving on the reef was my biggest motivator for the journey. Environmentally speaking it wasn't the least selfish thing I've done. Tourism wreaks a lot of damage on the reefs (arguably though the attention of the tourist trade is what ensures the Australian government ensures conservation efforts continue).

Did I have mis-conceptions about what Australia would be like? Of course. But I wasn't assuming I was going to get mugged by Redback spiders the second I stepped off the plane.

The British as a society, may well be guilty of ignoring the damage that our colonisation had (and still has) on Australia. There are certainly elements guilty of ignoring the terrible things done to the native people of Australia. These are the elements that might also believe the British Empire was a glorious, blood-free escapade.

This thread could just as easily be about British mis-conceptions of the US. Or Australian mis-conceptions of the British (you think Eastenders or The Bill are accurate snapshots of life here?).

There is always a tendency to romanticise the far-away places that we may only visit once or twice in our lives. I'm sure there are people in the world that would assume you'll be kicked to death by football hooligans as soon as you step off a train in Waterloo.

Of course we shouldn't airbrush out the atrocious parts of history (insert "Those who don't learn, doomed to repeat." style utterings here). I have to say I was very impressed with the scope of the Sydney Museum's exhibit on the supression of the native Australians, it opened my eyes to a lot of things I'd never heard about.

As I say, I had mis-conceptions of Australia. But these were banished by the simple (these days) act of visiting the country.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:21 / 06.02.06
Is it really news to anyone that holiday brochures and tv shows aren't the most accurate source of information about a country?

Quite possibly, at least from my experience. I know lots of people who only know about Mexico, Tenerife, Ibiza and Corsica in terms of holiday resorts and beaches.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:11 / 06.02.06
Which is to say that no, people don't take their impression of a place purely from those sources, but that these sources are a larger influence than most of us realise. Yes, people get their information from factual books (for example) as well as being exposed to advertising- but they are exposed to repeated adverts almost 24/7 (I include myself in "they", by the way.)
 
 
Axolotl
18:00 / 06.02.06
"But these were banished by the simple (these days) act of visiting the country"
Weevil Client List: While long distance air travel is much, much cheaper now than even 10 years ago, I think you may be over stating your case here. I reckon a fairly large proportion of the UK could not afford to visit Australia, especially if you're talking about people who have families. It's not especially important, but it's a bit of hot button of mine. Sorry for the semi-thread rot.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:29 / 07.02.06
Weevil Client List: While long distance air travel is much, much cheaper now than even 10 years ago, I think you may be over stating your case here. I reckon a fairly large proportion of the UK could not afford to visit Australia, especially if you're talking about people who have families. It's not especially important, but it's a bit of hot button of mine. Sorry for the semi-thread rot.

Well, I didn't say it was cheap, I said it was simple. But point taken.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:07 / 08.02.06
To get a handle on this, compare it to the received image, of say, Brazil- there are still jungles and snakes and spiders but they are dangerous and unhealthy, untamed; the people who live there are seen as either mad, over-emotional and dangerously sexual whilst being kitsch half-whites (the spanish), or dark-skinned and primitive and into "voodoo" and virgin sacrifices (the indigenous peoples, when they are seen at all).

Hence Brazil, or Brazillian-ness, is harder to use as a selling point than Australia. While to an extent Brazil as a place can be sold to the young and self-identified "adventurous" consumer of holidays as an "extreme experience", Brazil the place is only really good for providing shorthand "dangerous" environments for game shows or adventure serials and it's people will either be devious "false-westerners" who try to trick the hero (the Spanish), exotic and devilish one night stands of either sex (any number of adverts for latin-style alchoholic drinks), or nameless Tribal Warriors who get in the hero's way and who he will kill in the hundreds as he tries to get his hands on the secret artefact.



I'm a Brazilian, and aside from the already-pointed fact that mine is a Portuguese-colonized nation, and not Spanish (with later touches of Italian and even a little German), and it's Candomblé (with its darker side, Macumba) instead of Voodoo (btw, Candomblé is an African-brazilian religion, not native-Brazilian: that part is played by Santo Daime), I kinda like all those clichés: they are great to mess with the minds of too-white European types (no offense intended, amigos, it's just fun to screw with other people's prejudices).

And, just as we're talking about misconceptions and clichés, I usually think of Australians as just another kind of Brit, only that they live in a sunny place, it's all the same (native-Australians are seen as a different people all-together).

From the biological (zoological and botanic) point of view, and I'm speaking as a former biologist, Australia is like a whole other planet, or maybe some sort of atavic "Lost World". I mean, marsupials being the dominant mammals? Talking about weeiird!

I'm not saying these opinions are any more correct than the previously mentioned, but since we're talking about media-stimulated clichés...
 
 
rising and revolving
14:35 / 09.02.06
I think it's worth considering that there's a lot more back and forth between Oz and the UK than there is between say, Oz and anywhere else. So regardless of whether it's cheap enough for anyone to go to Australia (or vice the versa) it's cheap enough that lots of people have. Which means if you'd like to know what Australians think of Oz, you can find one to ask.

This is substantially less true of Brazil, I would imagine. But I could be wrong (not to sure about relative population density in UK).

The other thing to keep in mind is that Australia has a small, small, population. 20 million odd. We travel overseas a lot, and to the UK more than just about anywhere else - so, relatively speaking, there are a LOT of Aussies in London - but that's still not a lot of Aussies.

Australia is probably less up to date with the UK these days that it once was. It used to be that a lot of our cultural input came from the UK - television (a lot of BBC teev), magazines (from Womans Weekly, which basically used to be the royal watchers mag of choice, to Eagle and Dan Dare) and lots of other reference points. Including lots of people who'd moved over relatively recently.

However, these days most of the media is American, and the most recent wave of immigration is asian (this has a different meaning in the UK to Aus, I think?) rather than European. Different country now - and different again since I was last there (been about four years now).

Also, the racism is hardly recent. Racial tension in inner city has been running hot for years now - as has organised crime and gang violence. Not that it really speaks for the rest of the country, mind you - I would have been deeply shocked to hear of similar riots in Melbourne or elsewhere. Even so, racism is a consistent issue in Australias history from the moment of white colonisation onwards.

I do find it a little strange though that you're trying to compare the received image of Australia with ... the received image of Australia. Your discussion of the "genuine present" of Oz is just as much a received image - although at least this time one crafted by actual engagement with Australians it's nonetheless not much better or more "genuine".

I do see the tension you're trying to draw here between the image and the reality - but isn't it hard to do without any actual reality on which to base the understanding?

Oh, and mere petty pedantry. 90% is nine in ten, not one in ten.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:38 / 09.02.06
R&R, your points are valid and accepted. I'm glad people (including actual Teh Ozies!1) are interested in this topic as it's fairly nebulous.

From the biological (zoological and botanic) point of view, and I'm speaking as a former biologist, Australia is like a whole other planet, or maybe some sort of atavic "Lost World". I mean, marsupials being the dominant mammals? Talking about weeiird!

It's also like South America before the land bridge between it and North America got thrown up by volcanoes (or simillar), and allowed the N. American mammals acess to what had once been the Marsupial Jungle Wonderland Experience.

I sometimes feel I might be developing "placental mammal's guilt" when I think about how we (well, mammoths and deer and what not) wiped out all the giant ground sloths and marsupial "sabre-tooth tigers" (convergent evolution: the sabre tooth tiger archetype evolved a bunch of different times in the cat family proper and almost as many times among the pouch brigade, fact fans).

At least the tree kangaroo lives on, and there's some more been discovered in Papua.
 
 
Loomis
08:25 / 10.02.06
asian (this has a different meaning in the UK to Aus, I think?)

Yep. In Oz, asian means south east asian, ie China, Japan, Vietnam, etc., whereas in the UK it means the sub-continent.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
14:20 / 10.02.06
I think many Britons also have a proprietal interest in perpetuating the myth of Australia as some kind of paradise. It's something Britain 'created' - so there was the whole penal colony business, but that's neither here nor there. Some people still view Australia as a kind of success story - the little brother done good, thanks to the love and guidance of the benevolent older brother.

I don't know about other Australians, but I've certainly had people in England telling me, because they like me, of course, that I'm British really. Of course I'm not suggesting this is how all or most people in Britain feel, but I think it goes towards the explaining the idealised view you present at the outset of your thread.

And so many people have ties, either family or friend, between Australia and Britain. Go out to visit someone for a couple of weeks when it's sunny and you're carefree and seeing loved ones - it's both easy and reassuring to idealise that place.

On the general friendly, cuddliness of nature - I'd have to say that where my family lives, there's slightly more of the spiky, bity, killiness of it all. Black snakes in the garden, crocodiles in the river, tropical diseases from the very threat of a little stagnant water (they have pot plant police - how cool is that). I think that outside the big cities, and people do live there, the relationship between people and environment is still very different to that in the UK, for example. There's not a decent spider in sight and don't get me started on the lack of decent snakes...

Loomis (or indeed anyone else who wants to enlighten me) - since I became aware of the difference in the UK/Australian use of Asian I've been wondering what term the UK would use to refer to what Australians call Asian?
 
 
rising and revolving
15:42 / 10.02.06
One other thing.

In reference to the idea that Australia is some kind of unspoiled paradise ... well, it is. Probably not of the kind that you think, but even so.

I've travelled a fair amount now, and most of that time has been spent living in foreign cities for substantial (6 month to 2 year stints) including both Vancouver and Montreal which are commonly at the top of 'most livable city' lists.

Frankly, Australia has it pretty good. The food is fresh and phenomenal. The air is unbelivable. The weather is amazing. The beaches mind boggling. The people friendly. The flora and fauna unique.

Hard to beat, really. So, while it's probably coloured a bit by my ex-pat experience, it seems one of the hardest things about the discussion is the fact that a lot of the myths are true. It's just the picture that goes together from there is a little flawed.
 
 
Loomis
09:10 / 11.02.06
In some ways I would actually say that many Australians have a false image of the country as well. The whole notion of "God's country" (yes, people use this term without a trace of irony). It's one thing that really bugs me. When a Brit discovers that you choose to live in the UK rather than in Oz they say why on earth would you do that, but if a Brit moves to Australia then most Aussies tell them they've done the right thing. There's just such a lack of self-deprecation that can irritate me. Especially when you're there with your British partner and every other person gives you the third degree about how you could possibly want to live in a cold damp place with crap food, bad teeth and no showers. And not just taking the piss - they seriously believe those things.

Loomis (or indeed anyone else who wants to enlighten me) - since I became aware of the difference in the UK/Australian use of Asian I've been wondering what term the UK would use to refer to what Australians call Asian?

Not sure really. I've heard people use "oriental" but I wouldn't use that myself and I don't think it's accepted anymore. I can't hear it without thinking of dodgy racist stereotypes. I suppose it's not a geographical distinction that needs to be made very often in this part of the world, and vice versa in Australia with the subcontinent. You only develop words for things/people you need to refer to regularly.

Speaking of collective terms, we need one for British people. Briton just sounds too old-fashioned and saying British person all the time gets a bit unwieldy.
 
 
rising and revolving
16:42 / 13.02.06
"In some ways I would actually say that many Australians have a false image of the country as well."

Absolutely. Can't see the forest for the trees, and all. I tend to think I'm in a somewhat better situation than many, due to having spent five years living in other countries, but even so I'm a long way from having an unquestionably 'true' perspective.

"The whole notion of "God's country" (yes, people use this term without a trace of irony)."

'God's Own' is the common appelation (Godzone, if you prefer) and ... it's a different slant to the one you'd common perceive, I suspect. For starts, it's not very common these days. Secondly, it's a very different concept to the American perspective of the US as a land under the special provenance of God.

How?

If I had to outline the difference, it would be one of presence. The US God[1] is considered to be actively overseeing and overlooking the US and its affairs. The Australian God in reference here is an absentee. If present at all, it is present IN the land and of the land. It is God in the manifestation of natural, awesome beauty that dwarfs the men and women who stand beside it. It is the God of wide open space, the God of fucking enourmous rocks.

This is neither a vengeful or protective God, as I get it.

And yeah, you can say it without irony, but not without an appreciation of the fact that the whole deal is Gods work. It's just this bit is where he came when he was done to sink a few tinnies and kip on the beach.
 
 
Saltation
11:44 / 16.02.06
speaking as an aussie, i can heartily recommend brits read this book if they want to learn a bit about actual australians. it only makes a couple of mistakes --primarily, one paragraph merely parrots the PC line re aborigines rather than finding out how well it fits reality-- and the whole is excellent.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:47 / 16.02.06
What is the "PC line re aborigines", Saltation?
 
 
Saltation
17:08 / 16.02.06
Read the book!
 
 
Saltation
17:18 / 16.02.06
Something i'd like to throw into the pot for discussion, is that despite its apparent homogeneity, australia has one sharp cultural divide internally: the south-east, and the rest-of.

not a new observation: i first came across the idea in a series of books written by the chap who sharply shortened teh korean war and whose "Psychological Warfare" book is still textbook for military schools; but when later having the opportunity to travel and work more widely round australia, i discovered it to be extraordinarily apt.

when you're looking at contrasts between image and reality, this is another factor to consider.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:59 / 16.02.06
Saltation, you said that the book in question "parrots the PC line re aborigines" - this relies on their being a "PC line re aborigines" that existed before the book, in order for the book to parrot it. What is that "PC line"?
 
 
Loomis
20:36 / 16.02.06
Saltation, I don't think it's fair to expect us all to read that book in order to understand your reference. If you make a comment in a thread then you should be able to explain what you mean. Might also be an idea to read the Head Shop thread on political correctness before parroting any lines about pc.
 
 
Saltation
21:38 / 16.02.06
Fair enough. I'd assumed from the phrasing of the question and some stuff i'd seen on other threads that the first question was a deliberate set-up, preparing the scene for a flame fest. Which i have no interest in. So i was flip.

(i just took a poke at that headshop->politicalcorrectness thread (thanks for the heads-up), but it's bloody huge and the first 13 screenfulls (@1600x1200) and the last 2 all of a theme and much of a muchness, so i will leave a proper reading of it for another day and proceed under steam of assumption re remainder, as nothing i've so far seen in that largeish chunk was different from my preceding understanding. If you know of a key twist or development later in that thread, please alert me.)


However, if you are genuinely interested, the pc line re aborigines goes something like this:

Aborigines do not get a fair go, they are repressed and victimised, unable to get proper houses or jobs, they have appalling medical conditions and live in absolute poverty with no proper education or chance to lift themselves out of the mess, all due to the malicious policy and attitude of the whites, who have historically held them down and discriminated against them and continue to do so. Government policies even in modern times have been drawn up specifically to attack aboriginal society and culture and self-respect/identity as a race. Their pride as a race is being destroyed by the constant discrimination against them practised by the white invaders, who have stolen from them their country and now refuse to offer the aborigines the same respect and opportunities they offer their own kind. They are subject to racism at every turn.


HOWEVER
This is linkrotting rather badly -- there are huge depths to this which, if discussed properly to allow general understanding, will hijack this thread. I regret mentioning the flaw in the book if it serves only to distract people from the key point of mentioning it: that that book offers an unflattering and fairly accurate view of a surprisingly wide range of australian culture.

The discussion is re whether false images of oz have a dangerous impact on brits.
To that extent i thought mentioning the book was a useful contribution.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:12 / 17.02.06
Since this thread seems to be about a discontinuity between perceptions of Australia and reality, and you are positing a difference between a "PC line" and reality with regards to a chunk of the Australian population, I don't think it would be rotting the thread to continue discussing this issue. In particular, I'd be interested to hear how you think the situation in reality differs from the "PC line". If you don't want to do that here, then this thread on racism (and/or the alleged lack thereof) in Australia might be the place to do it.

(Incidentally - and this is off-topic - I'm not aware of questions about what people mean by "PC" ever being used to set-up a "flame fest", unless we have different definitions of flaming. Used to set-up a discussion about the concept of "PC" in which the person who used the term inevitably ends up being unable to articulate what they mean by it - maybe.)
 
 
Loomis
09:15 / 17.02.06
Again, Saltation, I think you need to provide further clarification. I understand your concern that it might not fit perfectly in this thread, but sometimes that happens and it's not entirely outwith the remit of this thread. In any case, Shaftoe has linked to another thread for you to use if you prefer that one.

Now I realise that you probably consider your pc remark not to be the main point of your post. However, it's precisely the fact that you deem the comment to be so uncontroversial that it can be dashed off without need of justification that provokes our desire for that very justification.

You've given us the "pc line", but as you've implied that it doesn't fit with reality, then it is incumbent on you to explain how. I don't mind which thread you use; indeed, feel free to start a new one specifically on that topic.
 
 
Saltation
16:18 / 17.02.06
the last sentence of this:
>"(Incidentally - and this is off-topic - I'm not aware of questions about what people mean by "PC" ever being used to set-up a "flame fest", unless we have different definitions of flaming. Used to set-up a discussion about the concept of "PC" in which the person who used the term inevitably ends up being unable to articulate what they mean by it - maybe.)"
, only serves to underline my concern, as it conflicts with a balanced reading of what i've seen so far on barbelith (pathological extremes excepted at both ends of the spectrum) and thus reinforces my initial interpretation of the initial question.


KEY POINTS OF THIS POST:
• i am very sorry now that i mentioned the error readers should be cautious of when reading that book's presented point of view. it has distracted from the discussion: "How people in the UK see Australia".

• i will not pursue race-focussed discussion here.

• i personally object to 99% of the Content of what i posted being discarded in favour of a chance to examine a favoured meme.


-- <disjunct but background>
formal statement:
i laud and assist the goals of political correctness:
        equality, ease, respect, opportunity;
        offered and available to all regardless of background.
but i do not confuse the prophet's words with the religion.
and i do not confuse the religion with the priesthood.

paraphrasing:
"i disagree with what you say but will defend your right to say it.
and for precisely the same reason, i will defend other people against people who say no-one must disagree with you.
but be aware that 'People' can include Me and 'People' can include You."

even-handedness of respect unfortunately implies even-handedness of respect.


formal statement:
i regard culture (incl. sub-cultures) as being far more important an influencer of superficial behaviour than genetics: australia and its immigrants being spectacular examples. as are children and parents. (do YOU dance like your dad?)

but for people who don't understand how gifts can destroy a person more completely than assault, i suggest they either investigate how the UN changed the way it distributes aid in central Africa so that people would accept it, or that they read this book: "The Situation is Hopeless but not Serious: The Pursuit of Unhappiness" -- no new ideas if you've actually observed human behaviour, but it's a lovely short summary that saves a lot of re-re-repeating: can be read in a couple of hours which saves me talking for that long or me typing for a couple of months.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
18:58 / 17.02.06
I'm not quite sure you needed to go into that much detail just now, Saltation, but it's good to see that you're getting into posting here. I would, however, recommend that you read through the PC thread. I'd recommend that to everyone, actually.

As the starter of this thread, I'm quite interested to know how you think your example of the "PC line" (Aborigines do not get a fair go...etc) is wrong or to what extent it oversimplifies things, and indeed to what extent it is beleived? I think it'll fit quite well into the thread.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:35 / 18.02.06
Saltation - I think you could do with reading the PC thread. Apart from anything else, it could really do with your contribution, as you appear to have knowledge about the aims of Political Correctness, and therefore presumably also its leaders and core texts, that nobody has so far been able to produce. I'm sure your insight and knowledge would be much appreciated.

Back in Australia - it seems to me pretty obvious that the perception of treatment of aborigines is one of the (false?) images of Australia we are discussing. Perhaps it is not something that the industry that sells Australia as a sunny tourist destination feels a need to point up, but this apparent PC orthodoxy must come from somewhere and be held by some people. This set of orthodoxy-holders presumably includes people in Britain, who, for want of a better term, indulge this view of the aborigines as mistreated in order to achieve an aim - condemnation of Australian society, a feeling of superiority or perhaps a desire to accept as trustworthy those sources which present this view, say. So, we're pretty much bang on topic. Why is this view prevalent? Cui bono?
 
 
Baobab Branches and Plastic
14:47 / 24.02.06
The main point is that this past and the present to which it constantly contributes are nearly always absent from our images of Australia, and in the absence of genuine experience the false images take centre, and then total, stage. Why is this bad? I think we all know but I'd like to see someone else phrase it.

I don't know why is this bad? Because it's false doesn't necessarily make it bad other than if you're a govenment official IN australia passing laws etc on Australians based on this falsehood.

Most (perhaps all) knowledge is partial anyway... people go to places in essence to learn about that place. Most tourists travelling to Australia learn more about the native inhabitants, land, climate, etc when they are there. In some sense then the 'selling of Australia' in adverts (which Neighbours and Home and Away can be considered) leads people to find out more about Australia.

A greater issue is how Australians see themselves, the lack of asian or aboriginal characters on Australian TV for years is concerning, in so far as it shows the weave of the general Australian psyche. That Australians' (regardless of race, colour or creed) concept of what is an Australian is still blond blue eyed NW European IS actually bad in that it leads to social (and increasingly legal/medical/educational) exclusion. However these aren't issues typical of Australia so much as typical of a globalised world with an increased level of human migration (perhaps the most since the end of the last ice age).

I'm not defending Australia's humanitarian/social/political record in any sense but I really don't think the UK's impression of Australia matters other than reinforcing to Australians what they already misconceive of as Australian.

That said, times are changing and the whole 'we are one nation though our colours are many' projects have done much to promote alternative views of what is Australian. To the extent that now some people consider themselves 'true' Australians - meaning they align themselves with the images, morals, and values of 1950s suburban Australia - which in turn modelled itself on typifications of rural life and values. But conservatism abounds everywhere.

Cultural conceptions and reproductions of itself are practicable illusions built on illusions built on illusions built slightly on situational necessity, but mostly on illusion and as most anthropologists would argue the danger of this is seeing 'things of order as the order of things' i.e. static reification.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
00:00 / 25.02.06
I don't know why is this bad? Because it's false doesn't necessarily make it bad...

I'm not talking about false images as in, I don't know, ap icture of a flower with a smily face. I'm talking about societal myths, things that are not thought of as false.

Why are these false images bad? Is it really not obvious? Maybe you should ask, I don't know, some evil Christian-eating Jews- they were pretty prominent in Europe for a long time. Or what about those Africans who god didn't give the divine spark to, so it's okay to hunt them like game? Of course, we don't hold such views anymore, but you could always ask those crazy Muslims? Stockpile of bombs in every mosque, doncha know...
 
  

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