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Freedom of the Press versus Islamic Blasphemy

 
  

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Mistoffelees
09:35 / 05.02.06
Legba
Mistoffelees, I know this must be an upsetting situation for you but I sincerely hope we're not going to lose you over it. Surely you can see how offensive the cartoons were?


Concerning yesterday´s crimes, I don´t care how offensive they are, burning down embassies can´t be justified as an acceptable reaction. Look at Pakistan. Their reaction was, to officially call in the ambassadors. Why can´t Palestinians, Iranians or Syrians do that, too?

Haus
Call me obvious, but the muslims living in Denmark who first got cross about these cartoons have neither vast oil reserves nor nuclear weapons. In fact, I would go so far as to say that very few muslims have both nuclear weapons and vast oil reserves - the number of muslim states (or rather states with majority muslim populations) with nuclear weapons currently stands around one (one without great oil wealth), and the states with vast oil reserves often do not apportion that wealth according to strict principles of social equality.


Of course, you´re right about this. But I saw generalization as the only response to Boboss´ naive generalization of rich Western world/poor Islamic world. I pointed out with my hyperbole, that many muslim countries are anything but poor.

And again, the reactions are all out of proportion, and that´s what is bothering me. Yes, those cartoons are extremely offensive. But there are more peaceful ways to get your point across. Acting that violent over cartoons will not get much sympathy and understanding from the "rich western world" (20% unemployment in my "rich" city alone, and many towns in Britain aren´t that well off either, or so I´ve heard).

I´m not throwing one billion muslim people in a pot. Obviously, it´s a fanatical minority that committed these atrocities. But it looks to me, as if muslim governments/press are putting Europe all in one pot. A couple of people maybe 100, are responsible for the cartoons. And now 250 million people have to feel guilty?
 
 
illmatic
10:21 / 05.02.06
Many muslim countries are anything but poor

but.... a lot of these states have hugely unfair distributions of wealth, and this inequality is and has been directly supported by ermm... our governments. See Saudi Arabia, pre-revoultionary Iran and Kuwait, for a start).

I think you're fallng into "us and them" thinking far too quickly.
 
 
Spaniel
10:35 / 05.02.06
Jesus Christ, no one is fucking naively generalising. I was speaking broadly to make a point.

Look, Mist, I'm sorry if I've offended you, and of course I don't approve of burning down embassies, but I can't help but feel that comparing the offense caused by burning your flag with the offence caused by these cartoons is akin to a white man crying foul when he's called "honky".
 
 
Spaniel
10:44 / 05.02.06
And, er, what Illmatic said.

Does this stuff really need pointing out?
 
 
Mistoffelees
11:03 / 05.02.06
Jesus Christ, no one is fucking naively generalising. I was speaking broadly to make a point.

Okay, I accept that. I just react really sensitive to this "rich western world". I grew up living with my parents in a one-room appartment, and I know a lot of people that can´t be considered "wealthy", either.

Look, Mist, I'm sorry if I've offended you, and of course I don't approve of burning down embassies, but I can't help but feel that comparing the offense caused by burning your flag with the offence caused by these cartoons is akin to a white man crying foul when he's called "honky".

I´m not angry with you Boboss. I have realized that you wrote your posts, when that hadn´t happened yet (or was not on the news yet). I apologize, too, for wanting to put you in an ivory tower.

Still I see a difference between the flag and the cartoon incident. The cartoon was insensitive, it ridiculed their religion, understood. But burning flags of other nations for me is like a declaration of war (not by their government, by the people who burn them). And as a reaction, it is different to the cartoon:

The cartoonists and press people obviously didn´t know the extreme consequences of their actions, or they never would have drawn/published them in the first place.

The flag burning was done intentional, with the knowledge, how people in the respective nations would feel about it. The cartoon was an avoidable accident responsible by people, who didn´t know that their provocation (I guess, that may have been part of their intention) would result in this fallout. The flag burning was a payback, a revenge, done fully intentional. It is different. And that goes ten times for what happened later on.

Now I agree with Jack. They should have stayed at boycotting Danish products (which I´ll be buying tomorrow - http://www.daenischessen.de/).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:12 / 05.02.06
The cartoon was insensitive, it ridiculed their religion, understood. But burning flags of other nations for me is like a declaration of war (not by their government, by the people who burn them).

Except that Islam occupies a partial existence as a quasi-state also - which is precisely why "for me" is so important there...
 
 
Mistoffelees
11:27 / 05.02.06
Illmatic, I´ve been generalizing only that one time. And I explained, that I did that as a reaction to a generalization.

When you were quoting me, I had already stopped generalizing (saying "many").

It looks, as if you may be generalizing in your post, though ("our governments"). I wouldn´t know what my government has done to hurt those countries. The Palestinians, for example, got huge amounts of money from my government over decades. We payed for their whole airport (which got completely destroyed, and not by "our governments"). And what have the governments of Norway or Denmark ever done to these nations (other than the cartoons) that deserve this treatment?

And how are "our" governments responsible for the "hugely unfair distributions of wealth"? The wealth is a result of the oil, and that has not been put where it is by any man. I write this only to try to make you see, that I believe the accusation of me generalizing (or have I done it more than once?) seems unfair to me, especially when I´m the only one pointed at, while others generalize in the same thread, and are not held to task for it.

(I´d really need some smileys in this post, but recently I´ve read "smileys no" posts by established Barb Posters, and that has discouraged me.)

I don´t know if we should broaden the discussion in this thread by talking about how the western world is responsible for the poor/richness of muslim nations. That would need/deserve a thread of it´s own, I believe.

And I have to admit I don´t know enough about that topic. I confess, right now I´m only in this thread to try to explain myself/my position. Legba´s "I sincerely hope we're not going to lose you over it" was alarming to me. It read as if voicing your anger/hurt could be enough to end up as being considered a troll and having no chance to correct that view, once it´s established. And that would suck, as I really like this board.
 
 
Axolotl
11:56 / 05.02.06
Mistoffelees: I have a certain amount of sympathy for your views, I also have a certain amount of sympathy for those offended by the cartoons (not that that justifies all the responses). However I have to take issue with your claim that:
"The cartoonists and press people obviously didn´t know the extreme consequences of their actions, or they never would have drawn/published them in the first place"
While I doubt they knew exactly what the response would be I feel they had to know just how offensive these cartoons would be to muslims and that they would therefore provoke an extreme response.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:13 / 05.02.06
Hahaha! This is becoming the most grotesque comedy yet, and that's saying something!

So howsabout all this 'UK, better pray, 7/7 on its way' (very tasteful) and 'Massacre those who mock Islam' and 'Behead those who mock the prophet Mohammed' placards in the streets of London? Very holy. Very Divinely inspired. Fair points, I'm sure you agree? Haha!

(Apologies in advance for labouring a point, I should stay out of the Switchboard, really. I'm on a cloud, you see)

"Good Evening, its February 5th. Today, in the Theatre of the Absurd, the vast majority of the Ensemble cast failed miserably to Awaken to the simple, ever present truth that they are merely actors in a self created, jointly edited narrative of their own authorship. Lost in their roles, apparently enjoying the confusion with alarming zeal, this ignorance has lead to yet another epic collaboration in a total mockery of all notions of decency, love, compassion, brotherhood and sisterhod, good humour, justice and truth, while wrapping itself in the sacred texts which points to exactly those noble aspirations and lofty ambitions. Everybody seems extremely determined to continue feeding this plotline to its inevitably messy denouement. Watch this space for further updates.

And now...Sport!'
 
 
illmatic
12:15 / 05.02.06
Mist: Yep, I was generalising: I assumed you were American (just looked at your profile)....

I wouldn´t know what my government has done to hurt those countries.

Neither do I, I must confess - I don't know how the German government has acted in relation to oil rich states. I am aware of how the US has acted though, with "us" (the UK) as one of their major allies. And it's been a lot to do with propping up corrupt and undemocratic regimes when it benefits "us". And while I agree with you that a new thread might be better to discuss the specifics of this process and the power relations it engenders, surely this - power relations - are implicit to the whole discussion?

To spell it out a bit - I think a popular awareness of some of these issues amongst Islamic populations creates sentiment against an unspecified "West", and the cartoons connect with that - the latest insult to Islam, and Islamic people, following hot on the heels of Abu Gihrab, and Guatanamo Bay. Thus I can understand the strength of anger against them.

I'm not saying this is anger is right, or that the burning of embassies is justified (NOT AT ALL! and a lot of banners displayed on protests made me feel sick), just that I think that you can't divorce the events from this context.
 
 
Mistoffelees
12:18 / 05.02.06
Phox, we can only agree to disagree on this. In the last days, the impression I got is, that noone in the west had foreseen these violent reactions. I believe the potential for insult was severely underestimated.

My opinion: they thought it was a blasphemy like "any other blasphemy" in the recent years. Like the reactions to the painting of virgin Mary drawn with dung as paint or the figure of Christ in a tank full with urine. Maybe they expected demonstrations and heated rebuttals in the muslim press.

I haven´t found any statement of the caricaturists or of the people who okayed the printing yet. That could help us to clarify this question.
 
 
illmatic
13:40 / 05.02.06
Off-topic

Money Shot: I've got to say I think your comments aren't helpful. As you say, you're on a cloud. Howeever, I think a lot of people would be impressed if, on descent from the cloud, the insights and the "high" converted into constructive social action and engagement with the world, rather than retreat from it.
 
 
Axolotl
13:56 / 05.02.06
Mist: I agree that the extent of the reactions were not foreseen, but considering the current political climate in the world I fully believe they knew a cartoon of Muhammad (which is offensive to Muslims in its own right) as a terrorist was likely to create a shit-storm of controversy. That doesn't excuse the violence, but I think the hugely crass and insensitive nature of the cartoons means their publication was ill-judged at best.
Here is the wikipedia entry on the paper that published the cartoons. It looks like being broadly right-wing, but to what extent I don't know.
 
 
odd jest on horn
16:41 / 05.02.06
Just to add some perspective to the situation of muslims in Denmark.

Here's a link to an article about the fight to get to build a single visible mosque in Denmark. This was a issue in the general elections one year ago, whether to allow muslims to build mosques or not, in a country which there is supposedly freedom of religion.

Of some interest is the timeline for the controversy. It seems nothing much really happened despite outcry among Danish muslims until some of them went on tour to the Middle East with the cartoons (and to be fair, some fake ones as well)

The current ruling party instituted the so called 24-year-old rule.

All of my friends who have gone to Denmark in the last 10 years have come back with very depressing stories how they have been accosted by non-immigrant Danes that wanted to get them involved in friendly banter about how those "damn s*nd n**gers" are destroying the country. Obviously not statistics to judge a whole nation as "racist" by, but slightly alarming nevertheless.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
18:20 / 05.02.06
Money Shot, your post in this thread is very below standard for you.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:22 / 05.02.06
The cartoonists and press people obviously didn´t know the extreme consequences of their actions, or they never would have drawn/published them in the first place.

And the reprinting of the cartoons?
 
 
sleazenation
20:00 / 05.02.06
It was, as i have said, the pouring of burning napalm onto troubled waters...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:15 / 05.02.06
it's seen as a western voice; and that's something one needs to be aware of whatever one is saying.

I think this is a bit limited. The actions in London this week were performed by people living in the west.

Mist I think, flag aside, that some of the reactions have indeed been disproportionate. Burning down buildings and carrying placards bearing slogans like 'Behead those who mock the prophet Mohammed' are pretty unacceptable.

burning flags of other nations for me is like a declaration of war

How do you feel about British people burning an American flag to comment on Bush's leadership of the US?
 
 
penitentvandal
20:40 / 05.02.06
I can't help but feel that comparing the offense caused by burning your flag with the offence caused by these cartoons is akin to a white man crying foul when he's called "honky".

I fail to see the point of this. I would say calling a white guy 'honky' with no provocation is offensive, frankly. I think you might have been on firmer ground if you said it was akin to a white man who's just called a black man a 'nigger' crying foul when he's called 'honky', though even then that's not a fair characterisation of what Mistofeles actually said.

IMHO, if you're going to complain that you find something offensive then the way to deal with it is not to start going out of your way to offend other people in a tit-for-tat manner. But then obviously that's just crazy talk, as, being a 'rich' white European I clearly can't expect those silly Muslims to act reasonably. How utterly daft of my honky ass to think that.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:22 / 05.02.06
Okay, I want to tackle this flag thing further.

Primarily I want to point out that Islam is not a race but a religion. This is important because there is no flag, there is only Mohammed. He is central to the faith of every muslim.

I see a difference between the flag and the cartoon incident. The cartoon was insensitive, it ridiculed their religion, understood. But burning flags of other nations for me is like a declaration of war (not by their government, by the people who burn them).

But representing the leader of an entire religion as a terrorist is akin to demonising the religion. This isn't a nation, it doesn't have a geographical location, it's under far broader attack from the press.

Now I don't believe that the response has been proportionate as I have already stated but a flag is a piece of cloth that represents a nation state and to burn it is to express simple displeasure. It doesn't map on to delaring war, it maps on to displaying anger at the actions of citizens of the state. Those citizens both published the cartoons and purchased them. Anger towards the more violent and condemning actions- calls to behead people, arson, that's fair enough and something that I also feel but I think you need to examine your response towards the flag a little more heavily. It seems to me that you invest in a symbol of the nation state to a startling degree and that bears a lot of thought because it leads to a vast number of questions about what the flag really, truthfully means.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:46 / 05.02.06
But burning flags of other nations for me is like a declaration of war

Do you REALLY believe this?

I mean, REALLY?

I'm guessing I've declared war on my own country several times, and the US at least a couple.

Fucking hell. If I'd known, I'd have at least made sure I had some troops or something.

Declaration of war?

Doesn't that actually need some kind of weird thing whereby some heads of state actually, y'know, declare war?

Burning flags?

Fucking hell. I SO missed a meeting.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:09 / 05.02.06
Hang on, are we trying to understand Mist's position or just beat him into the ground here? I don't think he's really going to consider his position on flags when this much sarcasm and anger is directed at him. Flags are representative of a force, that doesn't mean everyone recognises that force and representation in the same way. Let's try and get into his framing of this symbollism and consider it before we condemn. It seems to me that he has a strong emotional tie to a notion that would interesting to hear about.

Mistoffolees I would really like it if you would explain your position and your response to flags.
 
 
Mistoffelees
23:48 / 05.02.06
Nina, I don´t understand yet, how to explain it satisfactorily, so I´ll have to think about, how people can take flag burning so lightly. Maybe in my anger I have worded it too strongly. Possibly, it was a kind of "gut reaction", as when somebody pushes your button and ticks you off.

And Stoatie, you´re only quoting a part of what I said. It is "But burning flags of other nations for me is like a declaration of war (not by their government, by the people who burn them)."

So "Doesn't that actually need some kind of weird thing whereby some heads of state actually, y'know, declare war?", doesn´t fit here. No, you don´t need a head of state for that, as Osama (or any other terrorist for that matter) for example has shown. A couple of followers with knives was all he needed. The word war was in every headline of every newspaper the next day.

Or another example: the first World War was supposedly started by a troubled young man shooting two aristocrats. So, the heads of state may only be needed later for doing the paperwork and mumbling catchphrases like "Bring it on!".

Of course, I said, that it´s a "declaration of war" by the individual who lit the flag. I don´t really expect a war, every time some idiot behaves like this.

Maybe I could put it like that:
Burning the flag means there can be no basis anymore for mutual respect, understanding or reasonable communication. Without that, how can there be peace? So it´s war by default.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:00 / 06.02.06
I'm burning a flag, right now.

I'm not gonna tell you whose flag.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:36 / 06.02.06
The word war was in every headline of every newspaper the next day.

Newspapers don't create a war though and I don't see any evidence of a real, direct war. There is no concrete enemy excluding one man who appears occasionally on video footage.

Burning the flag means there can be no basis anymore for mutual respect, understanding or reasonable communication. Without that, how can there be peace? So it´s war by default.

I think we're going to have to wait for your definition of what a flag means because these statements have a very vague meaning without them. You are saying that an action by a group of people on a street lacks respect and understanding. That doesn't equate to a war by default, it equates to a protest action and whether that protest is aimed at your own nation or another one does not change the amount of force employed in that action. In order to have a war it has to be declared by people with some kind of power over others. I think that this thread would be less vague if we could get to the meaning that you are ascribing to this symbol and work from there.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:04 / 06.02.06
Forgive me if I misunderstand, but I think Mistof is saying that a group that burn's a nation's flag is disdaining any form of constructive engagement with that nation's authorities - it's a sign that it has no interest in talking things over, basically. So, the relationship between the group that burns the flag and the emissaries of the state, be they police or diplomats or whoever, has broken down completely. So, if nto war then at least hostility exists between that group and the representatives of the nations whose flag has been burnt. On the other hand, this is why ambassadors very rarely burn flags. The flag-burning has been done by individuals rather than representatives of states.
 
 
Digital Hermes
04:40 / 06.02.06
Just to add more gas to the flame...

I think, in terms of discussing the event, if we avoid the comparisons and approximations, if anything because the comparison will lose something in the translation. The comparison of a white person being called 'honkey' leaves aside that insulting a faith is (possibly) deeper then attacking a skin-colour. In the former case, what is being attacked is not just the person you read about in the holy texts, but a whole cosmology, and afterlife system. And if you follow that faith strongly, as many followers of Islam seem to, any level of threat to that cosmology might affect them at a level that the West can't really empathize with or wrap a conception around. Here in North America, even the most fundamental religous folks I know can't be whipped up into that kind of fervour; it's just not how Western societies work.

(Keep in mind I'm not saying one is better; I'm describing what I've observed.)

That said: I find the level of violence that has erupted to be unsettling, and making difficult any large-scale sympathy for Islamic fundamentalist groups. Though the cartoons may have gone too far, firebombings do not seem to me to be anywhere near acceptable discourse in reaction to them. Flag burning is obviously a hot-button topic, as evidenced by the discussion here; I think it's clear that these flag burnings were perhaps not intended with the same lightness or implied self-revolution that is described here, by those who describe having done it. Though we can agree and maybe understand how the cartoons would and do anger Islam, is there anyone here actually advocating the mob violence and destruction (curently minor though it may be) that has occurred?
 
 
Digital Hermes
04:45 / 06.02.06
(Maybe we should start another thread about flag-burning; it seems as though there's lots of meat on that subject, too.)

Again on the flag-burning: Though both cartoons and flags are symbol-based methods of communication, flags are followed and recoginzed by a larger contingent then cartoons, (for the most part) so I think it's safe to say that burning flags constitues more of an ideological attack at a large group of people then burning or otherwise destroying a page of cartoons.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
05:33 / 06.02.06
Though we can agree and maybe understand how the cartoons would and do anger Islam, is there anyone here actually advocating the mob violence and destruction (curently minor though it may be) that has occurred?

I don't think anyone's advocating it. We're advocating dialogue and peaceful resolution- but if we're going to do that then I think we we need, at some level, to try and understand the violent reactions from the point of view of the position by which they are acceptable. In other words, we can't just sit here and condemn them, as that won't get us anywhere.

Again on the flag-burning: Though both cartoons and flags are symbol-based methods of communication, flags are followed and recoginzed by a larger contingent then cartoons, (for the most part) so I think it's safe to say that burning flags constitues more of an ideological attack at a large group of people then burning or otherwise destroying a page of cartoons.

I keep cropping up with these "points to remember", but still: the cartoons were created "in cold blood" by individuals with a comfortable level of material well-being, a high quality of life, and a level of creative freedom- the newspapers, basically.

Whereas the flags are being burnt as part of a group action by people who are both very angry, and thus acting irrationally, and also in a much worse position regards both quality of life and available channels with which to express their feelings.

So this act of flag-burning is not the same as people in, say, France burning a British flag over farming subsidies- that would be a totally innapropriate reaction because France has constructive channels open that are there to let it air any problem it might have with England.

No-one's saying the flag-burning is a Good Thing; what we're saying is that the people doing it are not 100% (or even 50% in my opiniion) to blame for it, and the situation should not be read without taking the wider context into account.
 
 
Spaniel
08:14 / 06.02.06
Velvet, I never said that calling a white man "honky" couldn't be considered offensive. Call me controversial, but I just don't think it's anything like as offensive - and damaging - (under normal circumstances) as calling a black man "nigger", and that's how I feel about this whole flag thing. Some of these cartoons, IMO, work to further marginalise Muslims, and that is a very bad thing indeed. Burning the German flag, at worst, causes a great deal of offense.

Also, I wasn't trying to offend Mist with my last post. I am genuinely sorry if I caused him any offense. By going on to talk about honkys etc... I was trying to explain how I feel about the comparison in question (and I'm fairly sure the comparison was made), and not give Mist a kicking by the backdoor.
He's angry, and I can relate to that. I said in my first post that the furore around these cartoons makes me uncomfortable, and as the days go by and embassies burn and I have to read yet another placard slagging off the West, I get even more fidgety, but I balance my anger with the understanding that there are good reasons why Muslims feel as they do.

But then obviously that's just crazy talk, as, being a 'rich' white European I clearly can't expect those silly Muslims to act reasonably.

And, please, can you just fucking stop with that shit? I've gone to great deal of trouble to explain my position, and that kind of misrepresentation feels entirely unfair, not to mention a little spiteful.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:19 / 06.02.06
Sort of OT, was going to PM, but thought it might belong here:

Money Shot: I've got to say I think your comments aren't helpful.

Compared to which ones, helping what? Helping move this discussion forward? Don't worry, it's got the weight of momentum on its side, it'll steamroller right over my little asides. Helping the situation the thread is about? Well, its in good company, then.

I think a lot of people would be impressed if, on descent from the cloud, the insights and the "high" converted into constructive social action and engagement with the world, rather than retreat from it.

Hah. It is not my interest, intent nor goal to impress anybody, let alone 'a lot of people'. Job done there, then.

'Constructive social action' eh? Like what? Posting to a micro-community on the internet? Woah. Steady now. The wheels of revolution can be hard to stop once set in motion by such monumental social action. The road to hell is paved with warrah warrah fishpaste.

Or howabout this : Do nothing. How's that for engagement with the world? Constructive enough for you? Let it be, as the Beatles might have it. Get your own house in order before you start interfering with the World, or the social structure. Accept it. For all of its beautiful people tripping over their own bullshit - just embrace it and get on with your life.

No one here in this thread is doing fuck all 'socially constructive' to address the issues of the groundswell of popularity for fundamentalism within Islam which encourages and endorses crowds of people dressing their babies in 'I *HEART* AL QAIDA' bandannas, parading with signs glorifying the mass murder of 52 people in these very streets not 6 months ago, back in the selfsame streets, and calling for 'beheadings' and 'massacres' of people who do not share their fundamentalism, dressed as suicide bombers. It's just idle chit chat.

The power hegemony implicit in flag burning? What a joke.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:54 / 06.02.06
M$ - if you'd like to talk about the protests, go for it. If you just want to make it clear that you are better than those who do, based on some telepathic understanding that this exchange is worthless and that nobody else in this thread is doing anything productive, then job done.
 
 
illmatic
08:58 / 06.02.06
Posting to a micro-community on the internet?

Dude, I have all kinds of problems with Barbelith's relation to real world events, don't get me wrong. I think a lot of the discussion on here is fruitless and serves only to pass time, and amuse people while they work in office jobs they don't like. However - occasionally admittedly - I do find things posted here that have alter my conceptions and thinking, and the way I act.

Get your own house in order before you start interfering with the World, or the social structure

I feel that part of getting your own house in order is remembering that there is a world of which one is a part, and that one can act positvely within, rather than ignoring it or "doing nothing". Going well off topic, but I think this is part of spiritual work, taking the "fire from heaven" and actually putting it to use, involving oneself in the messy business of human interaction, trying to ground all that fucking insight, openess and compassion in the world. I linked to a great essay in the activism thread that spells out a lot of this stuff, give it a read and see what you think.

I'd rather engage with this very frustrating endeavour, to try and work towards moments of mutual comprehension, people moving out of their fixed positions and identifications , than say that such a happening is a priori impossible.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:41 / 06.02.06
Why did you feel the need to edit your post, Haus? You previously mentioned it (my post) was a sign of 'deteriorating standards in the Switchboard' and that you were moving it for deletion. Suddenly, all this stuff about telepathy. What happened? Presumably the other mods did not agree? You didn't have to edit your post, surely?

As far as I can see, I am talking about the protests, albeit with reference to Illmatic's post appealing for constructive social activism. You see all that stuff about incitement to violence, and incitement to hatred, and fundamentalist intolerance of abstractions leading to actual death of human beings, and glorification of violence in the name of sacred texts which advocate peace and union with the Divine life-giver of the Universe? That's me, talking about the protests.

So, instead of flexing your clever-put-down muscles, when we all know you are Mr. Universe already, why don't you, or Illmatic, make a couple of suggestions for how I might go about constructive social activism with regard to this current outpouring of total, mind wrenchingly depraved lunacy?

Just the things you yourselves are involved in, for now, the stuff relating to this that you are already a part of for bringing about 'constructive social change' in the face of religious fundamentalism and violent protest on the streets of Europe. Maybe after a brief discussion of that (or those) we can move onto larger scale projects for those with more time or ability to engage with such.

Or not, whatever suits you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:17 / 06.02.06
You didn't have to edit your post, surely?

Well, I didn't have to, no, but in the face of Illmatic's far more reasonable and acute summary of the problems with your position, it seemed reasonable to do so. I'd probably start by suggesting you have a look at your use of the term "feel the need" above - it can be removed from the sentence without affecting the sense, and creates a certain and rather psychologised gloss.

However, actually I did not mention deleting your post. I mentioned that the fact that I was not moving your post for deletion was perhaps a sign of a general slipping of standards. Misquotation, by intent or through inattention, is unlikely to be helpful.

So, as for constructive social activism. Well, starting small, you probably work and live alongside members of the muslim faith - how are you treating them? Do these protests change your perspective? Did 7/7 change your perspective? On a purely personal level, you could think about that.

Next up, it might be worth thinking about the social causes of the radicalisation of muslims. Think of segregation, poverty, linguistic separateness. Consider how these thing might be addressed. If you are a parent, perhaps discuss with your child's school what sort of provisions are made.

Of course, one wellspring of what you describe as total, mind wrenchingly depraved lunacy might be deep senses of injustice at broader relations between East and West. Alienated and deprived of a voice, seeing their concerns ignored and their families left in poverty, people are susceptible to being radicalised. So, there's a case for political lobbying there to try to help address some of these injustices, both socially within communities and politically, for example by supporting moves to free muslims currently being held without trial in defiance of international law.

On the ground, people seem to be strangely more expert on what is real or not real Islam, often through a process of inspiration. It might be profitable to read up on Islam and its curent interpretations - possibly with a view to joining an inter-faith group and talking in that environment about what might constitute constructive engagement within a particular community.

At a higher level, one of the points where this situation could have been averted was when the Danish government was contacted by muslim groups inside Denmark. At that point, an opportunity for dialogue, which may or may not have been constructive, was apparently muffed. So, a bit of a look at how governments interact with religious groups might help one to work out hwo one would like to encourage one's own government to behave, and steps to take to achieve that.

However, all of these practices and others are assisted by discussion, thought and consideration. Your first post to this thread, laughing - that's laughing - at how from your enlightened position you saw all of this as theatre seemed somewhat at odds with what is apparently something you take very seriously indeed.

So, to change tack slightly - Money $hot is concerned about violence on the streets of Europe. What parallels and differences can we draw between these incidents and other incidents of mass action and/or violence (although the deaths so far have taken place outside Europe) in Europe? For example, the riots in France in November? The unrest in Bradford? Violence at the WTO meeting in Genoa? Can these riots be treated as national incidents, or is a transnational, transcultural respons required?
 
  

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