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Freedom of the Press versus Islamic Blasphemy

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
15:19 / 07.02.06
Slightly flippant, I realise, but I think it's important to keep political and religious separate at least in this sense. There are good (that is, comprehensible rather than morally commendable) political reasons for a lot of what Iran, for example, is doing, and there are suggested political reasons for this latest round, at the bottom of which pyramid we have people who are just behaving as, for example, Hindu Nationalists or American pro-Life activists might - by getting together in a group and bellowing. Offensive, scary and dangerous, certainly, but one might do well to think about the impact reportage has on perception.
 
 
Digital Hermes
19:39 / 07.02.06
I do understand what you mean, but I'm trying to focus, if anything, because of the thread summary, on the Muslim extremist situation. And the whole political correctness issue came into play for exactly this reason; that it becomes difficult to critisize even the violent extremists, because the criticism seems to be applied to the whole faith, no matter what it actually said. Or other examples of non-Muslim violence are provided to show no-ones hands are clean. But I don't think I ever said 'we' (being anyone who isn't 'they') are clean or innocent.

but one might do well to think about the impact reportage has on perception

Oh yes. You'll get me agreeing wholeheartedly on this one. But like anything, it's not just as simple as a headline touching off violence. There is an undercurrent that the headline is speaking to, that these religo-political leaders are using, to incite the anger that we see.

What I'd like to discuss is a) how is Islam being used to spark such a firestorm? and b) can\should non-Muslim countries censor themselves because of a militant group in a faith? Any faith?
 
 
Char Aina
19:46 / 07.02.06
how is Islam being used to spark such a firestorm?

bush says 'they' hate freedom and 'our' way of life.
'they' say 'we' are the great satan and hate 'their' devout nature.

its an easy demonisation that also makes the subtle point that 'we'(whoever 'we' may be) are great people who value great things.

the backdrop of actual violence committed by all sorts of people around the many complex issues means that one can say we need to be violent ourselves to combat the straw terror.

that in turn excuses our violence, being as it is in the service of Good against Evil.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:25 / 07.02.06
Oh yes. You'll get me agreeing wholeheartedly on this one. But like anything, it's not just as simple as a headline touching off violence

Actually, I meant "you are seeing lots of pictures and reports of muslims committing violent acts. Think about why."

Political correctness discussed here
 
 
Digital Hermes
21:55 / 07.02.06
I'll leave off the debate about our mutual misunderstanding of political correctness, and bring it as basic as this:

This thread is about, according to the title, "Freedom of the Press versus Islamic Blasphemy." I'd like to talk about that in this thread. I'd like to talk about the fact that numerous news sources have documented an extreme level of violence over a drawing, admittedley a controversial one. But penmarks (should) never equal firebombs.

If you are positing either a conspiracy to keep us from seeing the real news, then fine, say that. Or if these numerous news sources are simply facilitating a power structure that relegates Muslim issues to a negative role, then say that. But I'm not sure exactly what you're pointing at in regards to this thread.

For me, though it does become more complex, the simple fact that there are burned buildings and people dead because of a domino of mob violence, over the offense of a cartoon, seems tragic and wrong. And likewise, for other nations to not publish news or opinions because they fear violent backlash? Also wrong.
 
 
Char Aina
22:25 / 07.02.06
But penmarks (should) never equal firebombs.

uh...
what?
penmarks can be declarations of war, dude.
these may not have been that, but people routinely fall out quite spectacularly over ideas communicated through visual media of all sorts.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:58 / 07.02.06
If you are positing either a conspiracy to keep us from seeing the real news, then fine, say that. Or if these numerous news sources are simply facilitating a power structure that relegates Muslim issues to a negative role, then say that. But I'm not sure exactly what you're pointing at in regards to this thread.

Well, in regards to your comments, you said that it was your belief that Islam was unusual in having extreme elements. I sought to examone what I thought was a misunderstanding. You identified various acts of policy with religion, which again I sought to examine.

Putting Islam in a "dangerous extremist" box all on its lonesome is a bit of a cliché, and not one that requires a news conspiracy to advance it - it just happens that the US military is active in largely muslim areas, so the focus is there. That boxing, I think, has a deleterious effect on one's understanding of the situation.
 
 
Digital Hermes
01:10 / 08.02.06
Putting Islam in a "dangerous extremist" box all on its lonesome is a bit of a clich&eachute;, and not one that requires a news conspiracy to advance it - it just happens that the US military is active in largely muslim areas, so the focus is there. That boxing, I think, has a deleterious effect on one's understanding of the situation.

Two questions from this comment.

1) Is it your implication that I, in my previous posts, am boxing all of Islam into an extremist catagory? (I think I usually try to acknowledge that the violence is not representative of Islam as a whole, but if I haven't made it clear before, I hope I have now.)

2) What is your understanding of the situation? Because if question 1) is answered as yes, then I take you to mean that all of my previous posts have reacted to a false assumption perpetuated by western newsmachines with the viewpoint delineated by the American military.

And as a subset to 2), 2a) perhaps, assuming we can allow that firebombs have been thrown because of cartoons, where do you weigh in on that specifically, boxes aside?
 
 
Digital Hermes
01:18 / 08.02.06
Well, in regards to your comments, you said that it was your belief that Islam was unusual in having extreme elements. I sought to examone what I thought was a misunderstanding. You identified various acts of policy with religion, which again I sought to examine.

What I was hoping to discuss was the fact that amoung the major monotheisms, it seems as though Muslim militancy is more public then most. Now, you've reacted to that as a matter of reportage, which I can somewhat accept based on some of your other posts. The policy/religion element was something M$ and I had debated a bit already, in the sense that they are entwined; the mob religous fervour may be directed by someone less religous and/or fervent as a choic e of policy, but in this case at least, they seem entwined.

{By the way, Haus, I've got to say I'm really enjoying this debate. Although it seems to be getting heated at times, I'd like to thank you thus far for some rousing discourse!}
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:47 / 08.02.06
1) Is it your implication that I, in my previous posts, am boxing all of Islam into an extremist catagory? (I think I usually try to acknowledge that the violence is not representative of Islam as a whole, but if I haven't made it clear before, I hope I have now.)

Ah, no, not my intention at all. Rather, that you are boxing Islam as "the religion with the extremists". You've qualified this now by limiting the religions under examination to monotheistic religions, and that the extremism is most public in Islam rather than unique to it. That creates a lot of space, however - possibly almost to the point where it ceases to be a useful identifier. I'd certainly say that militant Islam is more public, at least to somebody relying on the Western media, because militant Islam is _news_ - it has positioned itself as an opponent of the West, and does showy things like kidnap and behead Americans. Having said which, of course, there are plenty of secular reasons why that is happening.

As a comparison: I mentioned Rwanda earlier, but how about the IRA? A majority catholic organisation that blows stuff up - does that make it an example of extremist Roman Catholicism?

Publicity is also an issue as it refers to how (and that) things are recorded, and also the opportunities available for people to achieve their political/religious aims. So, a Palestinian civilian shooting an Israeli soldier is a distinct type of action from an Israeli soldier shooting a Palestinian civilian, for example, because one has the legitimating force of a military organisation and ultimately a civil authority behind it. It is much harder, among other things, to read an Israeli soldier shooting a Palestinian civilian as in any way other than a secular act of law enforcement/state control. Likewise, I'd suggest, Iraqi civilians killed by US forces are far easier to ascribe to a secular cause than the killing of US forces by Iraqis/Syrians/whoever - as such, you can just sort of whack in extremist Islam as a quasi-tactical motivation.

So, that. If we're looking specifically at these demonstrations, then we probably have to try to compare them in intensity, spread and casualties to other demonstrations inspired at base by religious fervour, and then try to find a control group of another monotheistic religion of a similar size the devotees of which have a similar standard of living, access to information and so on. That's a big problem, because there kind of isn't one - Your best bet is Christianity. If a newspaper had gone out specifically to break one of the key tenets of Christianity, and a group of people had then gone on tour with this and falsified evidence to this effect... well, I'm not suer what would happen. There are an awful lot of people under the umbrella of Christianity. George Carey talked about people in the west, and specifically the secular west, not really understanding what it is to live in a religious state, either civically or personally, and I think that's a fair point.

So, there's that. There is also the question of whether many of these demonstrations are in fact politically motivated and possibly also politically organised, assembled and funded.
 
 
doctorbeck
11:53 / 08.02.06
>how about the IRA? A majority catholic organisation that >blows stuff up - does that make it an example of >
extremist Roman Catholicism?

as far as i can see the IRA was a very different thing, effectively a political (marxist) nationalist organisation fighting for a free and united ireland (for protestant, catholic and non-christians), it did not base it's idealogy on biblical sources or attempt to justify it's action from scripture, so really not a catholic organisation at all. now i wonder if it is easy to explain a lot of what are seen as fundamentalist muslim groups from mthe same perspective, basically nationalist movements but using scripture as a justification for their actions as well as political / nationalist ones?

sadly it decended into secarianism, gansterism and drug dealing but that's a different matter
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:09 / 08.02.06
now i wonder if it is easy to explain a lot of what are seen as fundamentalist muslim groups from mthe same perspective, basically nationalist movements but using scripture as a justification for their actions as well as political / nationalist ones?

Somebody give that man a prize.
 
 
sleazenation
12:49 / 08.02.06
There is an interesting article on Salon at the moment here which points out that there is a element of double standards and political motivation at the paper that orginally comissioned the cartoons that kicked off this who shebang.

Apparently The paper was offered and declined similar cartoons featuring Christian religious figures on the grounds that they might offend people. Apparently Editors at the publication point claim that the difference between the two cases is the Mohammed cartoons were comissioned... which doesn't really strike me as a terribly convincing defence...
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:20 / 08.02.06
True, but it rather depends upon what the charge is. Did the editors act on ideological grounds, picking out Islam for special treatement? Yes, almost certainly, but that strikes me as...not very interesting. "Stop press! Journalist accused of bias!"

I think that relating that to wider issues of how Islam is treated is more interesting, but for the topic at hand surely the question should be whether they had a right to publish the images rather than whether we *like* the fact that they published them. Perhaps I'm missing the fact that everyone is agreed that they were well within their rights to publish?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
19:55 / 08.02.06
It seems impracticable to restrict someone's right to make a crass, ignorant twat of themselves. Even if it leads to more crass, ignorant twats causing mayhem, destruction of property and loss of life.

C'est la vie, apparently. For more examples of this see : history.

Sorry, I'm back on that page again.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
08:38 / 09.02.06
I'm backtracking a bit, but I think tying into the question of nationalist movements... using scripture as a justification for their actions is Haus' question a page or two back:

What parallels and differences can we draw between these incidents and other incidents of mass action and/or violence (although the deaths so far have taken place outside Europe) in Europe? For example, the riots in France in November? The unrest in Bradford? Violence at the WTO meeting in Genoa? Can these riots be treated as national incidents, or is a transnational, transcultural response required?

I'm inclined to say that the riots do bear parallels to previous riots relating to race etc. Ostensibly, large-scale rioting prompted by a few cartoons may seem rather mind-boggling, but these cartoons, in particular the most contentious one (of Mohammed with - hilarious! - a bomb in his turban), are not just spectacularly racist/Islamophobic in themselves (and I certainly take issue with some in this thread who have downplayed their offensiveness, as though they could just be any innocuous picture of Hello Kitty or suchlike), but tie in to a hugely widespread popular discourse painting Islam as a religion of terrorism, and Muslims generally as backwards sand-dwellers who should be viewed with suspicion.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the specific sparks leading to particular race riots - perhaps someone who is could produce specific examples? - but I'd assume that some, blatantly beyond-the-pale as they may seem in retrospect, would not necessarily be the most egregious incidents of racism and oppression to date at the time.
 
 
The Falcon
09:03 / 09.02.06
Mark Steel's weekly column on the subject this week reaffirms a number of points made here, and has the added bonus of being amusing as ever.

You apparently have to pay for it, though.
 
 
Jack Fear
09:24 / 09.02.06
So much for a free press, then.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:27 / 09.02.06
Pingles: Indeed. The prohibition on portrayal of TPM is not strictly observed by muslims. Which possibly is another misunderstanding point - the secular left say "But we're not muslims - therefore we don't have a problem with depicting TPM pictorially, and you have no more right to complain about that than you have to stop us drinking wine or eating pork", whereas the muslims are offended precisely because the portrayals are by non-muslims, and appear to be using TPM to insult Islam.

Quite an interesting article by an American muslim here.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:57 / 09.02.06
Forgive me if I'm being seduced my misreprepresentations from the "far left", but I was under the impression that other rather less unsavoury depictions of TPM by non-Muslims had been pretty much A-OK before, and also that the prohibition against depiction is an interpretation by certain clerics, rather than something universally condemned by all Muslims (I note, though, that in the Link above, Lenin doesn't state the source of the particular picture he links to, and its appearance instinctively leads me to think it's likely drawn by someone who does indeed follow Islam)?

But even if this is not the case, I don't think it's too far a stretch to suggest that any animosity towards depiction in general is likely to be compounded somewhat if said depiction is accompanied by a not-very-implicit Islamophobic (and, going by both your earlier identification of Muslims as belonging to a kind of quasi-state, and the conflation of "Muslim" with "brown-skinned people" or "sand-dwellers", racist) slur...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:04 / 09.02.06
but I was under the impression that other rather less unsavoury depictions of TPM by non-Muslims had been pretty much A-OK before, and also that the prohibition against depiction is an interpretation by certain clerics, rather than something universally condemned by all Muslims

Not sure about A-OK - are you referring to anything in particular, Pingles? The article I linked to, however, does support the idea that positive/quasi-devotional images of TPM are mass-produced and sold among muslims, whether produced by the faithful or not (and how, at the point of sale, could one be sure?). So, yeah - I can see a lot of value in the proposition that the cartoons were a shot in the culture wars without an awful lot to do with free speech, except tangentially. The intention seems more to have been to stir up trouble, and having done so to shake one's head sadly and say that Islam is clearly incompatible with European values of free speech.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:53 / 09.02.06
No, I wasn't referring to anything in particular - thus my questioning whether it was just an impression gleaned from the Lenin's Tomb post I linked to. Surely, though, recent history can't be completely devoid of depictions of TPM by non-Muslims... does anyone have any information about any such images and how they have been received?

But yes, a picture of TPM with a bomb on his head is quite clearly going to have implications beyond the simply fact that someone has drawn TPM.

Also, looking over at the Christian Voice/BNP thread, Legba suggested that the outrage over Jerry Springer: the Opera and its blasphemy was a good comparison. This struck me as not quite a fair comparison, and I think this feeling is related to the broader discourses relating to Christianity and Islam in the West (and I think it's fair to include the US as well as Europe, as arguably providing more extreme examples of the ways in which both religions are treated); namely, Islam is widely represented as an inherently vicious and backward religion, and its followers considered by many to be to a person irrational terrorists, while Christianity... well, there's variation as to whether it's considered untouchable or fair game for a bit of poking, but the number of people claiming that its existence lends itself only to people being blown up are relatively few.
 
 
alas
14:08 / 09.02.06
Going back a bit, to Our Lady's comment I suspect (and could well be wrong) that in Islamic countries worshippers get their information from their mosques, the mosques then plug in to a larger theocratic government structure. You don't get that here.

Ok, it's a little different, admittedly, but in this article from Harper's a couple of years ago"Jesus Plus Nothing", Jeffrey Sharlet makes a claim for a fairly powerful group of extremist Christians in Washington DC, who include some fairly high ranking officials, who seem to have something like this as a goal/structure in the US. He continues this exploration of the political aspirations and church-based structure of the Christian right in America, in his more recent article 'Soldiers of Christ: Inside America's Most Powerful Megachurch'.

I'm not suggesting these christians are all ready to bomb an embassy themselves, but it paints an interesting if rather scary picture of these churches as deeply intertwined with politics in the US. And arguably, they don't have to go bomb the embassies of "infidels": GWB is doing it for them, using young recruits from the poorest parts of the country. They just put their yellow magnetic flags on their SUVs, although maybe its the one with the cut-out cross in the middle and "pray for our troops", rather than just the secular "support our troops," written piously across it in cursive script.

My sister is a member of this network, and I'm pretty sure was a member of the big church in Colorado Springs described in the second Sharlet article back when it was a storefront. She homeschools her kids and sees the Middle East conflict, and many domestic issues (abortion, gay rights) in explicitly biblical terms. They oppose teachings in school that suggest the world wasn't created in 7 days. They want prayer in school, the 10 commandments displayed in our courthouses....

Political religious conflict is not new, and, in fact, I don't think one can understand the military approach of GWB's administration without understanding his religious world view.

I am open to hearing how my analogy is flawed. (In fact, I might sleep better nights if I am wrong). But right now, I just don't see the Christian Right in the US as radically different, in its goals and agenda, from the more extreme elements of Islam.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:54 / 09.02.06
Good point, Pringles; I'd just like to clarify that I wasn't specifying an absolute comparison, more just a definite example of Christians trying to block something.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:19 / 09.02.06
I think it's more offensive when someone from one religion makes fun of other people's religions, as it's the case. I mean, most jokes on Jesus are made by christians (or, at least, atheists who were raised in a chritian environment). If a, say, zoroastrist made fun of my religion, I'd get pissed. And the Muslins, additionaly, see themselves as a persecuted minority sieged by the world, which makes them that much more zealous about their culture. It's like the N-word. If a black person says it, other black people may not give it a second thought, but if a white person says it, hell breaks loose (and rightly so, I believe).

But, regardless, this is getting waaay out of hand. Anyone knows what's the death toll so far over a few cartoons? Talking about over-reaction
 
 
illmatic
20:43 / 09.02.06
I thought you were going to keep stupid comments to that thread in the Conversation?

Perhaps actually try reading the rest of the thread and you might see that the whole "hey, it's just a cartoon" issue has already been addressed at length.
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:34 / 09.02.06
My only concern here is with people who are dying over this issue. I'm serious about that.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:37 / 10.02.06
READ THE THREAD.

I'm serious about that.
 
 
Digital Hermes
19:13 / 10.02.06
Just to get back to the whole freedom of speech/press issue:

Here in Canada, a Halifax professor is being protested against because he put the cartoons on his office door in an attempt to begin a dialogue, in an academic setting. This strikes me as an over-reaction, especially considering his numerous attempts at trying to start such a dialogue. The university itself declined to have any sort of talks on this current event.

A lot of this seems like muzzling out of fear. Which worries me. In Canada, we have hate crime legislation, which ends one's ability to speak your mind as soon as it enters unmitigated, unverifiable statements of hatred against another social group. But to not be allowed to talk about a controversy that is going on, by posting cartoons that seem inflammatory, yes, but not a hate crime (in the sense of calling for the deaths of all Muslims) seems the wrong way to go about it.

Some of my problem with this issue is that there seems to be yet more onion leaves to peel away. For example, I don't know a comprehensive amount about Islam to be able to speak clearly about what their faith holds. I'm not intimate with the Koran, essentially. So I'm not sure what the average Muslim is supposed to do when faced with situations like this. Which makes it hard to judge the controversy and come down with one-side-right-the-other-side-wrong pronouncements.

An interesting side element is the possible polarizing this may be causing. Inciting non-militant Muslims into violent protests, if anything by the religious and social pressure involved. Does anyone know more on this side of it?
 
 
quixote
02:28 / 11.02.06
I'm tired of bullying by fundamentalists of any stripe.

If they don't want to see something, they don't have to look at at. End of story.

Free expression is balanced by the ability to ignore it, not by censorship.

We could use a great deal of improvement in making it effortless for people to avoid seeing offensive messages. (Ads come to mind.) But nobody, bullying fundies included, has the right to censor expression.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a "dissident Muslim," who knows a thing or two about what free speech is worth and how much it costs, has recently come out saying the same thing.
 
 
quixote
02:49 / 11.02.06
There are some side issues regarding the whole cartoon controversy.

1) Islam, ie the Koran, has no more prohibition against imagery than Christianity. Some fundamentalist Muslims just take the prohibitions against idolatry to an extreme. See Amir Taheri, Feb 8, Bonfire of the Pieties.

2) The following connections were made by The Religious Policeman (a Saudi with a great sense of humor!).

The cartoons came out last September. Nothing happened. They were re-published in an Egyptian newspaper some weeks later by some people who were trying to stir up a protest. Nothing happened. Then came the hajj, and the by-now-usual lack of organization and security that allowed several hundred pilgrims to be trampled to death. This is only the third (4th?, 5th?) time this has happened in recent years. There were mutterings that the Saudi government should "DO something." The current round of cartoon hysteria was started in Saudi media and spread from there. Nothing happens on Saudi media without the say-so of the government. Now, nobody is talking about the trampled pilgrims.

As Alice might say, curiouser and curiouser.
 
 
Axolotl
11:40 / 11.02.06
Quixote: Summing up Islam as the Qur'an alone is rather a simplistic view (and Muslims who do so are considered apostates by most other Muslims). If I recall correctly the main source of the prohibition of imagery are the hadith, which form an important part of Islam and are nearly universally acknowledged by Muslims to be vital supplements and clarifications of the Qur'an.
I would agree that there are various vested interests involved in using these cartoons to stir up hatred and violence. That doesn't necessarily invalidate the offensive nature of them.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
00:35 / 12.02.06
There's a good article by Fareena Alam at The Observer 'Why I reject the anarchists who claim to speak for Islam.
(just as a side note, I reject equating the current protests with a political philosophy shared by Henry David Thoreau, Oscar Wilde, Leo Tolstoy and many others, but that's beside the point)

I found this paragraph particularly good: 'We must stop thinking of ourselves as "the tribe of Islam",' declared Imam Zaid Shakir, an African-American scholar and civil-rights activist. 'Until we start to think of ourselves as the children of Adam, concerned about the welfare of all our fellow human beings, we are missing the point of being faithful. These are days when there is a lot of talk about defending the honour of the Prophet. What would it do for the honour of the Prophet if Muslims mobilised their tremendous resources to eradicate hunger from this planet?

What would it say to the world if Muslims mobilised to end the conflict in the Congo or to make generic Aids drugs available where they are not?' The crowd burst into enthusiastic applause.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:00 / 12.02.06
Its not a terrible piece, but this paragraph,

Freedom of speech is not absolute. It has to be in service of something, like peace or social justice. How have these cartoons, and the hypocritical defence of them, served these ideals?

seems to declare that she either doesn't get the point of free speech, or doesn't believe in it. While the first sentence is true, insisting that speech must be worthy is something that the most oppressive censor will gladly agree with.
 
 
alas
14:50 / 12.02.06
Stanley Fish's op-ed in the New York Times today is worth reading, "Our Faith in Letting it All Hang Out," which I think I actually somewhat agree with, although I'm not convinced his use of 'liberalism' is as careful as it should be, and I'm sure I'm convinced by his taking this stance, as I'll explain below. However, Since NYT has that annoying registration policy and rapid conversion to pay-per-view archive, I'll excerpt the entire conclusion to the piece:

... the editors who have run the cartoons do not believe that Muslims are evil infidels who must either be converted or vanquished. They do not publish the offending cartoons in an effort to further some religious or political vision; they do it gratuitously, almost accidentally. Concerned only to stand up for an abstract principle — free speech — they seize on whatever content happens to come their way and use it as an example of what the principle should be protecting. The fact that for others the content may be life itself is beside their point.

This is itself a morality — the morality of a withdrawal from morality in any strong, insistent form. It is certainly different from the morality of those for whom the Danish cartoons are blasphemy and monstrously evil. And the difference, I think, is to the credit of the Muslim protesters and to the discredit of the liberal editors.

The argument from reciprocity — you do it to us, so how can you complain if we do it to you? — will have force only if the moral equivalence of "us" and "you" is presupposed. But the relativizing of ideologies and religions belongs to the liberal theology, and would hardly be persuasive to a Muslim.

This is why calls for "dialogue," issued so frequently of late by the pundits with an unbearable smugness — you can just see them thinking, "What's wrong with these people?" — are unlikely to fall on receptive ears. The belief in the therapeutic and redemptive force of dialogue depends on the assumption (central to liberalism's theology) that, after all, no idea is worth fighting over to the death and that we can always reach a position of accommodation if only we will sit down and talk it out.

But a firm adherent of a comprehensive religion doesn't want dialogue about his beliefs; he wants those beliefs to prevail. Dialogue is not a tenet in his creed, and invoking it is unlikely to do anything but further persuade him that you have missed the point — as, indeed, you are pledged to do, so long as liberalism is the name of your faith.


(Stanley Fish is a former lit. professor at Duke in its heydey, now a law prof at Florida International Univ., who has recently taken to deep criticism of "liberalism"--which he uses, I think, pretty loosely. I've seen him speak and read his op-ed pieces whenever I come across them, and I can't quite pin him down: he so delights in creating an image of himself as a kind of curmudgeonly contrarian--an older Chris Hitchens in some ways--that I can't quite tell how much he actually believes his own arguments. Which, for me, makes me somewhat skeptical of this claim for grounded morality. The Wikipedia entry on Fish also finds a kind of slipperiness in Mr. Fish... ).

If anyone wants to read the whole thing, PM me.
 
  

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