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A suggestion.

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Regrettable Juvenilia

10:07 / 30.01.06

What, like Though I doubt anyone was weeping and it's because they're better people than him?

Tryphena Absent

10:18 / 30.01.06

That was very rude of me and I shouldn't have posted it. I didn't say I haven't been annoyed but the tone in this thread has been more than annoyed. Why do we need so many people to say the same thing to one person in the most aggressive way possible?

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:18 / 30.01.06

Well, yeah.

Notwithstanding that volte-face... I think your message would work better, Nina, if the defensive tone had followed rather than preceded any replies to this thread. I don't particularly want to see the Policy used for sniping like this, and I hope that, if Hiccups genuinely and simply didn't understand why he was getting less than universal approbation for his ideas and the way he was expressing them, my post above might help him out. My intention is to help him to understand the reaction his behaviour was getting, and hopefully therefore to help him to achieve his aim of enjoying Barbelith.

Put another way - I don't believe that anyone has to go on being a twat. You can choose to stop doing that as soon as you understand what being a twat involves and the benefits of ceasing to be one in future.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:19 / 30.01.06

I'd sort of like to see a little backing off too. Let's not go overboard, eh? The relevant points would seem to have been made.

Tryphena Absent

10:21 / 30.01.06

Excuse me but when he was clearly asked to actually respond properly he did. When someone actually gave him the time of bloody day he responded, politely and without any sniping.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:38 / 30.01.06

It remains the case that continuing to use language and terminology that represented this as a necessary warning to people to deal with the irrational, crying, aggressive, unmerited, politically correct free-spech hating Barbeloids was going to get him into trouble. Therefore, it makes sense to me, if he sincerely does not understand what he is doing there, to point out the narrative of victimhood in his choice of words and suggest he looks at how it is affecting how his thoughts on this topic are received. Your contention seems to be that he gets to be rude, you get to be rude and nobody else gets to be rude, which seems unwise in terms of the balance of force. Ideally, nobody is rude, and if his rudeness is in fact unintentional then hopefully that condition can be reached.

Anyway, I have made my suggestion. I don't think it needs to be more "nuclear" - the range of responses from mockery to banning is set, and I don't feel we have to play up what reactionary PC facists we are beyond that. Others may disagree, and are welcome to edit the Wiiki accordingly - I've provided a version as a possible guide, as has Hiccups.

Hiccups - I am sorry if you were taken aback by a negative reaction to what you felt was a neutral and unbiased perspective - I regret my hastiness. I hope my explanation, possibly in conjunction with reading some of the threads on Political Correctness, will help you in avoiding such disjuncts between intent and reception in future.

10:50 / 30.01.06

I'm not rude. I'm tough but compassionate. A cop on the edge who doesn't play by the rules.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:03 / 30.01.06

It'll be your badge next time, Fear!

Tryphena Absent

11:25 / 30.01.06

Actually I'm saying that we have someone here who was on the defensive to start with, was attacked and got even more defensive. That if we want valued, constructive members of the board then we have to explain what's wrong to them when they've had time to cool off, in a responsive, open-minded fashion. Otherwise we end up with people who never get past the first hurdle they hit. Basically though we're creating the bloody victim.

I am not saying I have a right to be rude, perhaps I should quote myself back to you since you seem unwilling to read my post. That was very rude of me and I shouldn't have posted it

We are bullying someone because our response to this thread is disproportionate. Honestly I think your response is unkind and riddled with assumption- you think (punctuation) is sniping when I read someone who was putting forward an apology of sorts and slipped up.

This My intention is to help him to understand the reaction his behaviour was getting, if true, only tells me that you are going about this in completely the wrong way. Being friendly and calm rather than aggressive and accusatory is a bit more likely to help him.

*this was posted prior to Haus' moderation of the post it addresses.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:35 / 30.01.06

(Note - my entry above was shorter when Nina was responding to it, and as such she was reacting to a terser version)

Nina - when I was talking about you being rude I meant in general rather than to (punctuation) - see Is he meant to kowtow to you because I fucking wouldn't and neither would anyone with any pride, for example.

11:41 / 30.01.06

when he was clearly asked to actually respond properly he did.
perhaps i misinterpret.

is clarification needed for my question to recieve a response?

Tryphena Absent

11:45 / 30.01.06

Well there's not really much I can say to that. That comment came from disappointment.

Oddly enough I expect more from all of you than I do from someone who is new to barbelith.

11:56 / 30.01.06

i am ready to believe that ze, and possibly you, missed my question. it was only little, and surrounded by lots of other posts. when ze got back to the thread, it probably got lost in the flood of other, longer responses.

it'd be nice to hear it from (punctuation), mind.

12:07 / 30.01.06

Haus - so perhaps this whole thing is a brilliantly sustained ironic comment on how people get snippy on the Internet.

I have to admit, that was my initial reading of the aim of the opening post.

Tryphena Absent

13:17 / 30.01.06

i am ready to believe that ze, and possibly you, missed my question. it was only little, and surrounded by lots of other posts

I don't think you would have known what kind of posts were on the board when you first started here and I believe you would have asked a question like that, which is why I chose to bypass it.

13:32 / 30.01.06

Here, the wiki. I miss all the fun stuff on the weekends.

13:51 / 30.01.06

Hate to piss on anyone’s chips, but doesn’t Olulabelle’s Venn diagram suggest that Offensive Shit is fine, so long as it’s not also Stupid Shit?

22:41 / 30.01.06

Hiccups - I am sorry if you were taken aback by a negative reaction to what you felt was a neutral and unbiased perspective - I regret my hastiness. I hope my explanation, possibly in conjunction with reading some of the threads on Political Correctness, will help you in avoiding such disjuncts between intent and reception in future.

Well I'm sorry too. I'll take another look at what has changed in the Political Correctness thread in my absence (probably a great deal) and see what I can do (concerning my phraseology and general demeanour). I've also just checked the Wiki, and I think what is expected has been clarified sufficiently.

Finally: Nina, thanks. I really appreciate that you were willing to defend me and what I was trying to achieve within this thread.

03:04 / 31.01.06

(to Smoothly) - The wiki does say that you can discuss matters that risk being offensive as long as you're being smart about it (in not exactly the same words). Willing to back up proposals with reason, and willing to apologize if you actually go too far.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:08 / 31.01.06

Should we maybe include a line or two about classism, or at least poverty-ism? Coz if you come on Barbelith and you're all "haha, Sharons and Tracies, burberry hats, haha council estate, left school at 15, hahaha six kids," you'll probably get at least poked. I mean, you won't get the full-on roasting you'd get if you used an ethnic or sexual slur, but you'll likely get pulled up.

I'd sort of like to see something in the wiki about that anyway because I think it's important.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:32 / 31.01.06

I'd like to see something in the Wiki about it too, but has it achieved enough of a consensus?

12:01 / 31.01.06

Would it be practical (or desirable) for the wiki to feature a list of words that are to be used with extreme caution? That, I’d have thought, could include ‘chav’, ‘pikey’ etc.

Threads where the use of particular words have been discussed at length could be linked there. Advising what kind of language will ring alarm bells might give a better indication of what tends to go down badly here than an unfinished list of isms.

12:02 / 31.01.06

I'll raise my hand for it.

[Edit: 'it' being 'a line or two about classism, or at least poverty-ism'; +1 towards consensus, then?]

12:12 / 31.01.06

Yeah, I'd back that. I don't know if 'chav' has similar origins (does come from the Newcastle area 'charver'...anyone?) but 'pikey' (and 'tinker') connote, I think, anti-Romany sentiment as well as just against poor people.

15:02 / 31.01.06

There should be something in there, in bold type, I think, about the dangers of following the advice of board members when they purport to give you 'a tip' at 'the bookmaker's,' also.

16:16 / 31.01.06

Shoulda listened to the winner.

16:17 / 31.01.06

...of money. Rather, 'a' winner. Who is me. Who won money betting on Chantelle - well, actually, it was the missus after consultation with me.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:32 / 31.01.06

Children, children. Can we assume that this discussion has reached a conclusion now?

18:06 / 31.01.06

There's still the question of whether to include something about class-based slurs. And if so, how this would be phrased.

Tryphena Absent

21:11 / 31.01.06

LESS BETTING TALK STOP NO DEFINING WORDS STOP POTENTIAL FOR TROLLS TO USE EVERY ONE OF THEM SIGNIFICANT STOP BRIEF DIRECTION ON CLASS DISCRIMINATION GOOD IDEA STOP

Oh sorry, wrong thread!

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

21:16 / 31.01.06

STRONG TRUTH.

Umm... sorry.

Actually, I'm kind of in agreement in the "list of words=bad" thing. Partly for my previously-outlined idea that I don't really think it should be up to the community to constantly be trying to anticipate stupid shit people may do (it smacks somewhat of the ludicrous list of things you shouldn't do whenever you buy a new electronic item- "DON'T FEED THIS UNIT TO ANGRY TIGERS", that kind of thing), and also, on a less rational level, due to a thing I saw in the Daily Mail a few months back, which took great pleasure in listing every term a council had banned its employees from using. I know the logic's not the same, but it kind of rubs me up the wrong way.

I'm aware I may have argued the converse in the past... what can I say? If I did, I've changed my mind. I do that sometimes.

22:14 / 31.01.06

I know what you mean Stoat, Nina, but we already are writing a list of things you shouldn't do. But at the moment, by naming attitudes - racism, homophobia, misogyny, etc - we run the same risks and more. For a start, we have arguments about what constitutes racism, homophobia, misogyny etc. And then the problem of the etc.

One of the advantages of a list of alarm bell words is that it's harder to duck out of responsibility. If you use the word 'chav' and get a reaction, then even if you believe you were justified, you can't claim surprise at a demand for an explanation. It's not so much about *banning* words as saying: If you use this word, be prepared to account for it.

It's not without it's drawbacks, I agree. For a start, what words? But policy is an inexact science, and a shortish list of the terms that regularly spark argument could be listed (and linked to those arguments) without too much controversy, I'd have thought.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:46 / 31.01.06

*grumble grumble Social Darwinism grumble grumble choice of words that nobody had a problem with grumble grumble*

I kind of know what you mean. But... really, that's legislating for common sense! Not to mention common courtesy. I'd be far more in favour of a "if words or terms you use are considered to be hate-speech/harassment/the mark of a prize cock then be prepared to BACK THEM UP when questioned" than anything else. Apart from anything else, what's the betting the tabloids, or indeed people whose local slang is not actually known by many on the board (though which may still prove offensive to those who ARE aware of it?), can come up with new offensive terms faster than we can stomp on 'em? "Chav" had been in very, very common use for a long time before a consensus was reached that it was unacceptable on Barbelith.

Tryphena Absent

00:07 / 01.02.06

The word we forget is an important point, "oh but that word wasn't on the liiiissstt". What are we going to say? "Well it is now". That would suck and it would be a weak response to simply refer to the text above the list. What if someone uses the word cunt, could be deemed misogynistic in one context but not in another. Not a word I have a reaction to in everyday life. Does it go on the list?

Who the hell wants to actually write hate speak down on a page for any purpose? Especially such a clinical one. It just sounds soul destroying to me. I can't even say never mind write half the words that would go on a list like that. There would be words on that list that I have never ever used. I don't want terms that make me feel nauseous marring our wiki.

00:19 / 01.02.06

Previous thread on producing a list of unacceptable words.

Yeah. I’m with stoat and others on the futility of trying to anticipate everything that people may do. Rather than continuing with the whole ‘don’t do this!’ tack, and returning to the venn diagram thing instead: perhaps a circle with ‘clever stuff’ and a circle with ‘charming stuff’ and an big arrow pointing to the overlap with ‘please, please just do this’ written on it?

Only, with social interaction in the real world, you don’t normally need to be told how to be charming. Or how to avoid being charmless. You figure these things out from the way people respond as soon as you walk into a room and start talking, and even sooner if you do a little listening first, to see what kind of room you’re in. You only normally walk into the wrong room and start shooting your mouth off about the wrong things, and then get a kicking, if you’re too drunk to notice where you are or how people are reacting. That’s why I was sceptical about the premise behind this thread, which seemed to me to be shifting some of that responsibility and suggesting that there is an immediate ‘nuclear’ response on barbelith to anyone's little missteps. I don't think there is.

Barbelith does have a few threads on classism and class-based slurs, though: here and here for example. I’m pretty much All For linking to previous discussions, but not for anything which looks to save people from having to read barbelith before they start posting to it. I like it when the FAQ points straight back to the board.

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