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diZzy

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
—| x |—
04:41 / 06.02.02
A little pre-reading preamble. In the following post I use the letter Z: please do not be annoyed or put off or otherwise intimidated by the occurrence of Z. It is inspired by some other Lithers use of ‘ze’ in place of he or she. By ‘Z’ I mean the set of {us, them, he, she, you, I, and other such words that reflect this division}. I hope that this makes the following easier to understand…

Does Z remember a short while ago when there were Zs screaming fight, fight, fight? And then there were other Zs who were attempting to dispel the illusion of false separation? Right left, up down, black white, etc, all the same, ya?

And in that thread, Z could refer back (if Z so decided) to the High/Low Booby trap, which was also about collapsing duality in terms of upside down pentagram vs. right-side up pentagram operations, so to speak.

More recently Zs have been listing Z’s favorite deities like these Zs might list Z’s favorite bands or books or whatnot in other areas of the vast Litherland community. Yarr, it’s all one big interwoven web—that’s jive Z! But what was immediately interesting, to Z anyway, was the nudge-nudge, wink-wink distinction between Z using a deity or deities, and the deity or deities using Z. Z is taking it for granted that the nudge-wink distinction was intended to avoid falling into a similar High/Low booby trap, and acknowledge the flip side of the coin, ya?

But then Z might be prone to ask what is it really?. Which, some Zs assure other Zs, is a question that has been unanswerable for many, many, many a Z’s age, and shall likely remain an open question for many more. And yar, history sure plays a role in the lives of deities and Zs, but when it comes down to it asking if magick is real is much like asking if real is real, at least that’s how it feels to Z.

While Z can’t answer the question of what is really real without begging the question, perhaps Z can answer the question of what it is to exist as a Z who holds that what is really real is that which is real to that Z. But maybe all Z could do here is point, and maybe the words which are history--Z’s relics of endless events gone by--fall away. Perhaps it is there in that singular state which is absolutely empty and yet is absolutely full that Z is born anew/dead again. But notice that Z still cannot even answer Z’s second question, and if Z speaks aloud or in Z’s head Z falls back into the days gone by, the history that divides, the words that tear Z to shreds. So it seems to Z that even if what is really real is what is real to Z, this remains inexpressible, and the moment Z tries to describe it to Z, Z once again falls into a similar booby trap of division.

Here Z quotes Persephone for the wonderful, “I believe that all words contain their opposites; but that you have to keep in the back of your mind and not the front, or else you’d get nothing said or done.” When Z does Z divides. Or else Z doesn’t do. What Z is trying to get at here is that if Z wants to avoid the same sorts of high/low booby traps by believing that Z use deity/ies and deity/ies use Z, then what or who is Z? Who is Z working for/employing?

In other words, when you (as a Z) commune with your chosen deity/ies and they/you do their/your bidding, who are you? Who are you really?

Or is this forever unanswerable, like what is really real? Do we not even know our own identity?

Z really wants to know!

O + I = Z (mod Z)
 
 
ciarconn
11:30 / 06.02.02
Well, I don't do deities properly speaking, but I'll try to answer anyway.
Who am I when they work my way?
I am a believer whose faith constructs, together with everybody else's faith, that thought construct.
Do they exist indepndently from us? They are not dependent on each of us, but they do depende on the whole humanity to sustain them.
Sorry if I do not sound clear, I'm just coming out of a flu, and, well, sill don't feel well.
 
 
Ierne
11:36 / 06.02.02
But what was immediately interesting, to Z anyway, was the nudge-nudge, wink-wink distinction between Z using a deity or deities, and the deity or deities using Z. Z is taking it for granted that the nudge-wink distinction was intended to avoid falling into a similar High/Low booby trap, and acknowledge the flip side of the coin, ya?–modfive

My comment about the Gods "using" me was a vast simplification of a rather complex interconnection – my bad. Perhaps it makes more sense to say that we work together.

I did feel that asking what gods one "uses" smacked slightly of hubris; anyone who chooses to believe in–and thereby open oneself to–any form of Deity, will at some point realize that Deity cannot be "used". As for the variety of different deities mentioned in that thread, it might help to be aware that they are each a different aspect of the whole, like the facets of a diamond.
 
 
Wyrd
12:27 / 06.02.02
quote:Originally posted by modfive:
In other words, when you (as a Z) commune with your chosen deity/ies and they/you do their/your bidding, who are you? Who are you really?


I actually have different aspects depending on for whom I'm working. So, when one of the Deities show up and requests some work done, then I'm usually operating within a specific framework, with a certain amount of protocols involved. Sometimes one of Them might show up to impart some information, either for me or for someone else. In that case there's usually no shift in focus.

I don't have any control over when They show up. In fact, I don't work with Deities primarily, and I'm not dedicated to any of Them. My role is mainly as a trusted freelancer who can get certain tasks accomplished and who is called in for certain jobs because of pre-defined agreements.

Or something like that.
 
 
cusm
13:19 / 06.02.02
Sometimes, I meet them in dreams, where they give me messages, teachings, or sharp blows to the head as appropriate. Sometimes, in a moment of ins(des)piration, I'll reach out and commune with one, more prayer than magic, but the effects are the same in the end. Sometimes they are invoked within circle for ritual purposes. Sometimes, as with the loa, they take a more direct role in nudging me about to do things. I'm not too comfortable with direct possession, but they seem perfectly able to work around that anyway. Sometimes I drum, and they speak. Sometimes I eat a lot of drugs, and the lines of who is invokeing who become blurred. Sometimes they are within me, sometimes I within them. Sometimes, they just show up on their own unnanounced, such as when I play with their toys.

I don't do a lot of diety work as a rule, at least I haven't in past years. I do seem to be going more in that direction of late, however. Quite a bit, in fact. The interaction is rarely the same, but it is always respectful and never a case of their just "doing my bidding", or the other way around.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:18 / 06.02.02
Pretty much what Wyrd said goes for me as well.

Also, while I don't rule out the philosophical questions that your post brings up, if I start thinking along those lines I usually find myself being less effective in doing the work. YMMV.

I treat 'spirits' (whether they be Ancestors, animals, deities, energetic animistic versions of kitchen appliances, servitors) in the same way that I treat flesh and blood people: on an individual basis specific to the relationship.

Do I really know who I am? Nah. And I don't really think it matters. I know what I feel strongly about and what I stand for and against. I continue to know my heart better each year and how to manifest those passions into reality. I know how I want to live and how to face both life and death. Hopefully I'll be doing that better each year as well.

Even if we are gods wearing masks, masks who wear chinchillas, or just narrowminded cells in a huge organism, maybe how we live and what we do with our lives are who we are.

Give me a good hammer, nails, and the knowledge to perfect my crafts. I'll leave the rest to the magical philosophers.
 
 
Seth
18:05 / 06.02.02
You want the Knowledge? Most people would say you're welcome to him!
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
18:07 / 06.02.02
D'oh!
 
 
Ierne
18:11 / 06.02.02
Let's not feed the...you know.

please do not be annoyed or put off or otherwise intimidated by the occurrence of Z. It is inspired by some other Lithers use of ‘ze’ in place of he or she. – modfive

I've seen s/he and hir used often on Barbelith as well. A bit easier to use/understand than just plain "Z"...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:19 / 06.02.02
Promising thread, this.

Currently I'm working with the following model/approach:

The Divine is that in concious being which can concieve of the Divine.

Sometimes it's useful to access this via godforms or similar paradigms. It's a bit chunky to deal with all at once- the Infinite needs quite a big run-up.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
18:19 / 06.02.02
quote: originally posted by the ultimately sensible Ierne
I've seen s/he and hir used often on Barbelith as well. A bit easier to use/understand than just plain "Z"...


Yeah, I do have to admit that I had to reread more than a few of Modfive's sentences to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting the pronoun and therefore the meaning.

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Wyrd
09:33 / 07.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
I treat 'spirits' (whether they be Ancestors, animals, deities, energetic animistic versions of kitchen appliances, servitors) in the same way that I treat flesh and blood people: on an individual basis specific to the relationship.


Yep, I'd agree with this. While I've heard people say that "all god/desses are one" that's not been my experience - in that each one has a different vib that is distinctive. I've also seen politics cropping up between various God/desses, and sometimes They don't all get along. Like Lothar, I treat each one that presents itself to me as an individual.

Generally I've found that Nature and the Universe tends towards diversity, and one unified divine force doesn't seem to tally with it.

Though, I could well be wrong, and we've all got our own theories.

I certainly wouldn't address Kali as the Morrigan though - I'm sure it would piss Her off royally.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:33 / 07.02.02
I agree completely. Politics, agendas, and quite a bit of diversity play as much a role in the spirit world as they do in our physical world.
 
 
Wyrd
09:33 / 07.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
I agree completely. Politics, agendas, and quite a bit of diversity play as much a role in the spirit world as they do in our physical world.


Does it ever! I have one group of entities that are constantly keeping an eye on one another, and circling around to make sure that their territory is intact. There's plenty of intriguing going on at times. It makes me feel like a fucking diplomat on occasion. Then there are some Spirit groups that don't get on with one another, which puts me in the firing zone because sometimes they have to come into contact because of me. Sigh. This is the kind of stuff you don't read in the books...
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:33 / 07.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Wyrd:

This is the kind of stuff you don't read in the books...


Nope. In the books you get Love and Light!

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Suffocate
09:33 / 07.02.02
Z
 
 
—| x |—
09:33 / 07.02.02
It's late, and this Z has sleep close at hand, so Z'll address the important stuff later, and try to elaborate then. But for now Z merely wanted to point out that the insensible difficulties, which

quote: Ierne relates to us about:
...see[ing] s/he and hir used often on Barbelith...[which is a] bit easier to use/understand than just plain "Z"...


are intricately involved in the point of the piece. So when

quote:Lothar informs us that:
...I had to reread more than a few of Modfive's sentences to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting the pronoun and therefore the meaning.


Z illustrates the appropriate way not to read the piece, or at least to miss the meaning as it was meant.

Not trying to pick on you fine folks (or give ya' some piss or take some piss--I'm not really sure how all that works anyway) 'though, it's merely late and I have to be blunt, cut to the chase, not beat around the..., and so on.

'Till daybreak,
(3 ^ 2) – (2 ^ 3) = 1 (mod 5)

Ps (& Qs): What's 'YMMV' mean Lothar? Your main man vicar? You make me vomit? Your move mod V?
 
 
Ierne
11:40 / 07.02.02
Z illustrates the appropriate way NOT to read the piece, or at least to miss the meaning as it was meant...Not trying to pick on you fine folks... – modfive

If you want your point to be understood by others, don't obfuscate.

If you want to discuss language, go here. If you want to take the piss out of people, please go here.

However, if you want to ask us about how we percieve the magick we practice, and/or what part Deity plays in that practice, then you're in the right place, and you've already collected some excellent answers here.

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Persephone
12:12 / 07.02.02
Ohhh I don't know if I should speak up... but I am quite sure that modfive is not taking the piss out of anyone here.

I think that modfive's Zs are trying to express that below the level where we are divided into I, you, he, she, it, we, they is the Deep Mind where all is one. Which brings the question, in this Deep Mind then Z is you and Z is god ...all one. No structure, no hierarchy, no way to say who's zooming whom.

That is why you have to keep this in the *back* of your mind, as Lothar expressed:

quote:while I don't rule out the philosophical questions that your post brings up, if I start thinking along those lines I usually find myself being less effective in doing the work.

But I personally like to take it out and look at it once in a while, and I think that's what modfive is doing in this magickal context.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
12:52 / 07.02.02
YMMV is newsgroup/chat lingo for 'Your Mileage May Vary' (i.e., your equally valid experience may be very different than mine). It lives in the same neighborhood of LOL, ROTFLOL, IMHO, IMNSHO, etc.

I did understand your intent behind using 'Z', especially after reading your 'po' thread in the Headshop.

My 'rereading' came about because you asked some specific questions based upon your previous sentences. In order for me to understand and therefore answer those questions, I felt that I had to reread them.

I felt that taking the time to reread would be more productive than asking you to clarify things in another post.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:07 / 07.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Persephone:

But I personally like to take it out and look at it once in a while, and I think that's what modfive is doing in this magickal context.


Sure, we all do. Nothing wrong with that at all.

I think I'm in a weird position here in that in California, most of the spiritual practitioners I meet are very much in the 'we are all one', 'you are another one of me', etc. mindsets. Instead of the non-spiritual tendency to focus on the divisions, they have over compensated and have completely embraced the 'all people are one', 'all God/desses are one', and even worse 'all experiences are one'. In the end, some of these practices seem neutered: If everything is one then why do anything? Why take a stand on anything other than 'Love and Light'?

I guess I strive for balance in my practice more than anything else including balance in vantage points so that I can see the unity and the divisions. Because there *are* divisions.

One body with many different cells that do many different things all for the continued growth of the body. (imperfect metaphor but you get the idea).

Viva la difference! (yes, my french sucks)
 
 
Ierne
13:56 / 07.02.02
I've also seen politics cropping up between various God/desses, and sometimes They don't all get along...Generally I've found that Nature and the Universe tends towards diversity, and one unified divine force doesn't seem to tally with it.

I certainly wouldn't address Kali as the Morrigan though - I'm sure it would piss Her off royally. – Wyrd


Diversity is indeed a key factor in how the Universe likes to go about its business...and I agree with Lothar as well that all deities/people/experiences are not the same.

What I was trying to get at with my faceted diamond scenario is that it has many different ways to reflect light, and no two people will really see it sparkle the same way. Whatever energy fuels the Universe (in my humble opinion) manifests itself in a myriad of different ways, and each part of the Universe can pick up on that energy as it sees fit.

But yeah, I would approach Kali and the Morrígan quite differently too!
Shiva and Dionysos, albeit a far closer match, also have various nuances and differences in how They interface with bhakti/bacchantes.
 
 
—| x |—
07:02 / 08.02.02
What Z notices in some of the responses illustrates the principle of "as above, so below." There’s "protocol," "[p]olitics, agendas," a "group of entities that are constantly keeping an eye on one another, and circling around to make sure that their territory is intact," and "...groups that don't get on with one another." Sounds pretty much like things here on earth, ya? Yarr, it’s good when Z gets in there to muck about: heal, hoe and harvest! Not a hippie new age of Light and Love, but a hardcore examination (to know?), interaction (to will?), rectification (to dare?), but perhaps also resuscitation—shattered silence—of Z’s milieu.

Z is certainly not trying to take the piss and vinegar out of Z’s practice. Z desires all the power to Zs which work towards the betterment of Z. However, while it seems to be important to have well defined boundaries when Z works with deities, it seems that these boundaries merely place Z in another variation of the High/Low Booby Trap. Some Z above have openly declared "there are divisions," and Z sees this as being not much different from Z endorsing that there is High magick and there is Low magick. So, while Z feels that

quote:Lothar avoids a similar High/Low booby trap by treating:
...'spirits' (whether they be Ancestors, animals, deities, energetic animistic versions of kitchen appliances, servitors) in the same way that [he would] treat flesh and blood people: on an individual basis specific to the relationship,


there is another (potential) booby trap here of acknowledging a separation between Z and Z. Again, this is not an attack on any Z, but rather, as Persephone points out, a simple examination, one which concerns the variations of the High/Low Booby Trap as they occur in every Z’s life. It seems to Z that if Z decides to acknowledge a fundamental diversity in the Universe without a balancing unity, then Z cannot fully dispel this diversity from such distinctions as High and Low magick: Z has picked a side and with that Z carries a fractal division which extends, however minutely, into all of Z’s being.

Z wants to examine Ierne’s diamond in all its reflective brilliance! Z feels that the interference amongst every single ray of light is what creates Z in all the forms that Z may take; moreover, Z seems only able to examine Z by the existence of the relations which occur from the light’s fractured intersecting patterns. However, Z wants to examine this even closer. Does the light shine from outside the diamond or does the light shine from within? Is Z the patterns of light within the diamond or is Z the halo projected from its facets? Can Z answer these questions without falling into a H/LBT? Or is Z the diamond? In which case there’s no answer to be given because the questions are ill-formed.

Lothar’s striving for balance in Z’s practice seems to Z the way that Z comes to recognize Z’s identity. And Z does think identity matters, because if Z is not on a journey of discovery, then what the hell is Z doing all this for anyway? Which brings Z to the final meager note that there appears to also be a "booby trap" or imbalance involved in placing an importance on "magickal practice" at the expense of "magickal philosophy" (Lothar’s "Give me a good hammer...I’ll leave the rest..."). Or more precisely, promotes acting on Z’s ideas over examining the ideas Z holds. IZHO, there needs to be an aim for a balance here as well, ya?

Z + D = 0 (mod Z)

Ps (& corn): I have tried, for several hours now, to make this piece as coherent and friendly as I could while still getting at the issue. It has never been my intent to do anything more than draw attention to the variations of imbalance that can occur in our lives—the High/Low Booby Trap(s). Thanks Persephone for your mediating post—I’m glad you spoke up. And Lothar, that you are "...continu[ing] to know [your] heart better each year and how to manifest those passions into reality," makes me happy, because you seem to have a good heart and getting to know Z’s good heart is what I wish for all Z roaming around this ball of muck. Oops, was that some Love and Light slipping in there?

m5
 
 
Ierne
11:07 / 08.02.02
I guess I strive for balance in my practice more than anything else including balance in vantage points so that I can see the unity and the divisions. Because there *are* divisions. – Lothar Tuppan

Some Z above have openly declared "there are divisions," and Z sees this as being not much different from Z endorsing that there is High magick and there is Low magick... – modfive

You're so busy with your little "Z" game that you completely missed the point Lothar was making. Accepting – and participating in – the diversity inherent in the Magickal life does NOT equate with a dualistic good/bad, high/low point of view.

I have tried, for several hours now, to make this piece as coherent and friendly as I could while still getting at the issue. It has never been my intent to do anything more than draw attention to the variations of imbalance that can occur in our lives—the High/Low Booby Trap(s). – modfive

With all due respect, you're coming off as deliberately obscure, and somewhat condescending in that you assume that we are utterly incapable of comprehending the unity in diversity. I also don't appreciate your intimations of hypocrisy: Lothar, Mordant C@rnival, myself and others have made it quite clear on this forum (over and over again) that distinctions between "Low" and "High" Magick do not exist.

You really aren't asking us to do anything we don't already do as part of our Magickal practice. We just don't over-intellectualize it as much as you do.

[ 08-02-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Persephone
12:14 / 08.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
I think I'm in a weird position here in that in California, etc.


I see where you are coming from, Lothar. If I am not being too forward, it feels to me that you have a strong sense of unity as a foundation & where you operate is on a plane of diversity.

To use myself as a counterexample, in psychological tests I always score off the charts in the rational measures (thinking vs. feeling, judgement vs. perception). So I actively try to balance this by playing (very seriously) on the other end of the spectrum. So I talk a lot about, work a lot with intuition and the unseen, etc.

This leads me into argument with lots of people who want to show me the way of reason. That's when the Reason Monster in me rises up and squashes 'em and puts 'em on toast for breakfast...

<goodness, where from the depths of hell did that last sentence come from?>

...no no no, just sometimes I wish. I confess, I get very impatient and go yeah yeah yeah and make rude gestures like 'wind it up' ...luckily I've been taking these Patience and Empathy pills and ought to be feeling their effects anytime soon...!

But seriously, do you know what I mean?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:40 / 08.02.02
Persephone: Yup. I know what you mean and your pretty much right on with your statement about the 'plane of diversity'.

Back to the rest of the thread:

A large element of my partner's and my practice is in working with people who are not magicians/shamans/etc. People who are usually at the end of their ropes. (how many people would be willing to go to a 'shaman' and pay for spiritual healing unless they had no where else to go). Because of this I have to be very aware of the divisions and the distinctions. The work is not easy, it's not pleasant, and it can be very emotionally traumatic and spiritually dangerous.

The divisions inherent in the work are what need to be addressed. And the worker better be clear about those divisions and distinctions.

I find it interesting that most of the people who have posted in this thread have had pretty much the same experiences with 'spirits' yet Modfive, you seem to think that we haven't asked these same questions ourselves and that we haven't been given sufficient evidence to practice the way we do and to have come to the conclusions that we have come to.

Like Ierne said, you're playing a game. I hope Z has fun with it.
 
 
—| x |—
05:00 / 09.02.02
Yes, I have nothing better to do than to spend 3.5 hours writing in an "obsfucated" manner for people I might never even meet only to cut them down and piss on their world view in order to inflate my own lacking sense of self worth *just* to show these same people what an arrogant self-righteous prick I am. I couldn’t *possibly* have anything interesting to say because it’s *so obvious* that I’m here to waste all of our time and make the world an *even worse* shit hole than it already is. It’s all part of my little game.

Seriously: Argh! This is turning into exactly what it was never intended as! I’m not trying to be deliberately obscure; rather, part of what this thread was attempting to do was to point to the inexpressible. Of course this is where we always run into problems, especially here where all we have is text and a few feeble emoticons. I am trying to do the best I can with the medium I’ve got. Besides, it’s always darkest before the dawn, and maybe we’re at daybreak.

Which is not to be obscure, but say that I think we’re good to go without the ‘Z’ if anyone is still even reading.

It is not my assumption that *anyone* is "...utterly incapable of comprehending the unity in diversity." If I believed that everyone here was a stupid git, then all this would be totally futile! Besides, I’ve been around these parts long enough to know damn well that you people who have helped me draw out the issue to this point (yes you Lothar & Ierne) can and do have a reasonable comprehension of the unity in diversity. That said, I do not think it would be wise to assume that everyone who might read this thread does. Further, if I didn’t respect you people and the strength of your practices, I wouldn’t even be attempting to do this because I think that this might be some of the rough stuff that has potential to be "...emotionally traumatic and spiritually dangerous." But part of our role is to take ourselves apart and put ourselves back together again, so if your up to it, let’s proceed with this examination and exercise.

I think it likely that we all agree that ‘unity in diversity’ is a difficult and subtle concept, an idea that possibly none of us will ever completely understand or integrate fully. However, since this idea seems to play an important role in magickal practice (and I use this in a broad sense—a synecdoche), this thread has been an attempt to flesh it out some more. It is intellectual in flavour because I don’t see how this can be discussed otherwise. But I don’t think that is a good reason to dismiss where the thread has taken us, which is somewhere that I am finding increasingly uncomfortable, so I can certainly appreciate your discomfort, but I want to press on if your willing. So let’s spell it out starting with the two premises:

1. There is a symmetry of unity and diversity.
2. This symmetry is broken when we act (‘actions’ can be taken as anything we do, think, feel, etc.).

I think the conclusion from this is that whenever we act we succumb to something that could be seen as a variation of the High/Low Booby Trap. Let me explain what I mean:

We can picture all these dualities as points on the circumference of a circle. As individuals, we can work our way around this circle going "no actual duality at a, no actual duality at b, no actual duality at c," etc. (where a, b, c, might be ‘High and Low magick,’ ‘left and right hand paths,’ etc.). However, there seems to come a point where we are on the circle and we stop and say, "duality at x," where this x could be, for instance, the duality of self and other or the duality between the individual and the deity.

So, I think the conclusion here is that accepting duality at some point is necessary to have any sort of existence/experience and that where we decide to stop is arbitrary, but yet, reflects what is needed for/of the individual at that time. So it’s not quite that "[a]ccepting – and participating in – the diversity inherent in the Magickal life..." does "...equate with a dualistic good/bad, high/low point of view." But that by participating in the diversity of life in general (and magickal life in specific) we do accept dualities of one form or another.

With this in mind, maybe we ought not be so hasty to declare there is no High/Low magick distinction, for example, because perhaps some people stop at that point on the circle and need to accept that duality in order to have a functioning practice in the same way that others stop at different points on the circle in order to define the boundaries that work for them.

m5
 
 
Persephone
10:34 / 09.02.02
Hey modfive? I'm sorry you're frustrated.

<sits down with two cups of tea>

Listen, I loved your Zs. I thought they were resonant and beautiful. When I read them, I could almost see them shape-shifting and then returning to universal matter.

I don't think that what you are saying is just a game. That is, I don't think it is "just a." I heard something interesting last night, I was talking to Husband about what was going on in this thread --and, for context, Husband does not hold much stock in the unseen & gets very trepidatious when I wander in that direction, a little worried that <voop!> one day Wife will disappear into her unseen-- but anyway, I was talking about "game" and how words contain their opposites, and out of the blue he said:

quote:How very Latinate of you.

I asked very attentive, But what do you mean???

quote:In Latin, the word for school is ludus, because school is the place where you don't play.

Well I was in awe. I always knew that I loved Latin, not to mention Husband. By this trick, school takes on the playfulness of play and play takes on the seriousness of school. And that is exactly what I think about Z, that Z is {play} --I got these curly brackets from Flame On to denote "loaded" or resonant words, aren't they nice?

<sips tea>

I was feeling sorry that you seemed to be getting the short end of the stick here. But do you know, then I thought about all those Zen parables where the poor student-monks are always getting pushed into mud puddles or getting their noses bitten. So I hope you will be able to see past your frustration, or rather see that it is something that has been laid on your path.

<sets down cup>

But you know, this whole business with the Zs just doesn't resonate with Ierne or Lothar. It doesn't work for them. That doesn't mean that Z is wrong or that they are. If you can imagine, in this matter you are on different places on the path, and I won't say who is ahead or behind --and in fact I will say, the path is probably a circle and there is no ahead or behind.

And also last night I read this interesting passage:

quote:from Condensed Chaos
When practising ritual magic it's generally a good idea to behave as if gods are real--whatever you think about their being archetypes or reflections of bits of yourself or whatever. So in a Cthulhu Mythos ritual, nothing will help build the necessary tension than the adopted belief that if you get it wrong Cthulhu will slime you!


Which is to say that every time is not the right time to re-uncover that all is one and one is all. You don't want to upset someone's good work, eh?

<getting up to go>

By now I feel my neck is so far stuck out, and if you study your Latin you know what happens to people whose necks stick out! So I shall cover myself again in my cloak and hope that wrath will pass us over.

You gonna drink your tea?

[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: Persephone ]
 
 
Papess
11:51 / 09.02.02
Very nice reply Persephone!

Although, I understand and empathize with Ierne's upset at the seeming implication that she is not aware of the "Unity in Diversity" theory, (I have been accused of not understanding this myself!) we have to remember the limited method of communication here. Even with verbal, face-to-face communication, ideas can be misunderstood.

That said, I would like to applaud modfive for coming up with an obvious but overlooked metaphor for the high/low booby trap. I think the Circle holds a lot of promise.

Taking any point on the circumferance of the circle, it will have a natural and directly opposing point. Remove any of the points and we no longer have a whole and complete circle. Or we could say the circle is the whole point but then I guess would mean there was an opposing point somewhere along the circumference of another circle.

I am certainly no quantum physicist but I am wondering if this is a similar model to super-string theory. This seems familiar to me somehow.

quote:That doesn't mean that Z is wrong or that they are. If you can imagine, in this matter you are on different places on the path, and I won't say who is ahead or behind --and in fact I will say, the path is probably a circle and there is no ahead or behind. ~Persephone

This is a very respectful statement. Thank you again Persephone. Again the circle, the orobouros of life is the key. It would seem as if we have been going around in circles in regards to this whole matter and NO WONDER! I think we have reached some common ground here though and have all been able to take a step back from our own "points of view" in order to view the entire circle or, all points at once.

All points that have been made are truly relevant. This is a difficult concept to intellectualize and communicate. I think it is because while discussing one point of view, invariably, one is leaving out another. Discussing the "whole" on the other hand, can be quite redundant. The Whole after all, just exsists and cannot be defined without stating another point of view!

So, I think I have chased my tail long enough and I am going to join Persephone in another cup of tea.

Would you care to join me Persephone?

~May Tricks
 
 
Ierne
14:49 / 09.02.02
Let's break out the Webster's, shall we?

Dual adj{L dualis<duo, TWO} 1. of two 2. having or composed of two parts or kinds, like or unlike; double, twofold

Dualism n. 1. the state of being dual; duality 2. Philos. the theory that the world is ultimately composed of, or explicable in terms of two basic entities 3. Theol. a) the doctrine that there are two mutually antagonistic principles in the universe, good and evil b) the doctrine that man has two natures, phyiscal and spiritual

Variety n. {Fr. variété<L. varietas} 1. the state or quality of being various or varied; absence of monotony or sameness 2. a different form of some thing, condition or quality 3. a number of different things thought of together; collection of varied things

Diverse adj. {ME & OFr.<L. diversus, pp of divertere, to turn aside} 1. different, dissimilar 2. varied, diverisified

Diversity n. {ME diversite<OFr. diverseté} 1. quality, state, fact or instance of being diverse; difference 2. variety

Please note that there is no mention of "two" in the meanings of Variety, Diverse, or Diversity. Diversity and Duality do not equate with each other.

I think the conclusion here is that accepting duality at some point is necessary to have any sort of existence/experience... – modfive

If that works for you, fine. Obviously duality means a lot to you and you've obsessed quite a bit about it on this thread. It doesn't mean anything to me, and I don't find it necessary for my experience.


Persephone: I hope you enjoy all the Latin words in this post!

[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Papess
15:08 / 09.02.02
Thank you for the definitions Ierne.

Maybe the "spirit" of the content of this thread cannot be found in literal meanings of words.

I think that I will describe to you Ierne why I used the word diverse. I was trying to encompass the many dualistic viewpoints that axis about the circumferance of the whole. Granted, it is not the most exact term but in the spirit of many dual type points of view, diversity seemed to fit.

Maybe the problem is the limits of language but that should not stop anyone from trying to analyze and understand the world and the theories and philosophies we, as humankind create.

~May Tricks
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:40 / 09.02.02
I may well regret posting on this thread, but I thought I'd add my thought, just in case it makes sense to this 'Duality in Diversity'.

Subjective and Objective, like looking into the eyes of another human and realising that they are having a valid 'living' experience the same as you.

I was made aware of dimensional theory over the years and in some minds 'we'/humans are developing an experience that extends into and finally through the 4th dimension. For our 'minds' to experience this realm of 3rd dimensional experience it appears that mind processing requires the use of binary opposites, duality. (2 > 3)

It can be an imperitive of a path/practice to neutralise this duality processing, to allow access to other dimensional possibilities. (2 > 1 gnosis)

Again this may have no relevence, just writing from my intuition as ever.
 
 
Ierne
19:28 / 09.02.02
May: I don't believe I made reference to you or anything you've posted in my previous post. You have a habit of taking my comments personally, and you really shouldn't. That having been said, I'm glad you appreciate the definitions – it seems that much of this thread revolves around words and language, so the definitions are there so we know what the words we are using mean.

Back to the thread:
Most of us live in a dualist society, and in order to interface with that society one often uses terms that don't always reflect the perceptions of one's inner concepts of life. In dealing with Deity (or Magickal Force if one chooses not to deal with Deity), societal interfaces are not necessary and more often than not get in the way. Yet in attempting to explain one's inner dealings one has to use the languages our societies make available to us, which usually doesn't cut it (especially if one doesn't deal with inner reality in a dualistic manner).

[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Papess
20:13 / 09.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
May: I don't believe I made reference to you or anything you've posted in my previous post. You have a habit of taking my comments personally, and you really shouldn't.


Ierne I am not in the habit of taking your posts personally, unless you are addressing me personally.

I was merely responding to your literal translations. I have used a similar term like "Unity in Diversity" before in this thread. The term I used was "Unity in Duality" I was just taking part in the converastion of this topic by responding to you.

I thought I could describe why I like the term and what it means to me, even though it does seem to have an oxy-moronic quality.

Nothing has been taken personally at all Ierne. Just adding my own ideas here to the discussion.

~May Tricks

[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: May Tricks ]
 
 
Persephone
09:40 / 10.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Will 'it work' Wright:
I was made aware of dimensional theory over the years and in some minds 'we'/humans are developing an experience that extends into and finally through the 4th dimension. For our 'minds' to experience this realm of 3rd dimensional experience it appears that mind processing requires the use of binary opposites, duality. (2 > 3)

It can be an imperitive of a path/practice to neutralise this duality processing, to allow access to other dimensional possibilities. (2 > 1 gnosis)


Oh how cool! But isn't your equation supposed to be (3 > 2) then (2 > 1 gnosis)?

If I may play with that a little, I would say:

(3 > 2) (2 > 1) (1 > 2) (2 > 3)

If I could type in a circle instead of just a straight line, the thing would bend around and swallow its own tail so to speak. Gnosis would be somewhere in the center and all around.

May Tricks: I would be honored to pour you a cup of tea. In fact, tea for everyone!

[Well actually it is not tea in fact, it is only virtual tea. Do join me anyway...]

[ 10-02-2002: Message edited by: Persephone ]
 
  

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