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The problem with charities

 
  

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nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:09 / 24.12.05
and by problems, I mean those that spend as much on administration as on their primary focus, whether it be disaster relief, medical research, the have-nots, etc.

are there programs by which employers will pay their employees for otherwise volunteering at a charity? Would this cut down on administration costs? Would that also improve the type of work and skills available to the charity? What would be fair? Volunteering for a week every year? A year every seven years? As dictated by forces of nature?

the following happened a couple of years ago. An acquaintance of mine is a goddess of organic gardening. She offered to provide information about the link between pesticide use and rates of breast cancer in lieu of money for their fundraising. She was politely refused.

This may have been the decision of one individual, I'm not sure how far it was pursued. However, I got the impression that there was a certain systematic denial happening.

I imagine this isn't entirely an isolated incident, however, I have basis to figure how prevalent it is. I have the feeling that in the case of really huge charities that generate a lot of money, there's a greater chance that people in priviledged positions are willing to perpetuate it, rather than find a cure or solution.

Particularly if the priviledged people were formally responsible for businesses that turned profits.

Bureaucracy is like muscle tissue. The more you have, the less efficient each individual fibre/person is.

any thoughts?
-not jack
 
 
Quantum
15:10 / 27.12.05
Most charities spend very little on administration. The staff are paid less than in equivalent positions in other fields and often volunteer as well or do extra work for free.

The statistics are often skewed as well, sometimes money spent on fundraising is included in admin statistics, sometimes not, and they're often presented as percentage of total expenditure so smaller charities seem less efficient. For example I think Childline spends about 1.6% on admin but about 30% on fundraising, because they don't have much money so they have to do a lot of fundraising.

Are you worried there's a fat corrupt cabal of charity administrators siphoning off funds from the gullible public? I don't think it's a big problem, myself, there's plenty of corruption to worry about elsewhere.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
06:41 / 29.12.05
true enough. most of the charities i've been involved with aren't flush by any means.

however, there's some pretty hugely established ones, the United Way, for example, that have a pretty large operation. As such, they have a big bureaucracy. As these things tend to go, the larger the bureaucracy, the less efficient it is.

true, there are corruptions that have a greater imperative to action.
that said, i think what's ultimately got me concerned is a trend i've noticed in disease research that seems to generate money as a solution towards curing cancer.

i'm not belittling or undermining the people that work towards finding a cure and relief for the afflicted. More power to them, honestly. May the wheel ever turn in favour of the healers.

What concerns me is that the means of fundraising has been modelled after money-generating businesses, often because board members are volunteering time and expertise which is often obtained in the private sector.

a lot of money changes hands from the patients' care, to the salaries of the physicians, nurses, attendants, support staff, all the way to the designers, manufacturers, marketers and salespeope of the technology used, etc, etc.

the economy thrives on this, in its current state.

as much as it does anytime money changes hands. that's the pity. It is a completely amoral system, and worse, indifferent.

in the example of my friend who wished to volunteer her time and experience and food to bring to people's attention the connection between pesticide use on food and the incidence of breast cancer, she was refused.

(when did adding poison to the food chain become so fashionable?)

it may be that it was a fundraising campaign, the goal of which was to raise funds. however, to deny any approach to finding a means of preventing and treating cancer seems to me a bit short-sighted.

but the economy thrives.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:17 / 29.12.05
No offence intended, but was it possible that the charity, which presumably dedicated a lot of its time to dealing with cancer in some form, already hhad access to plenty of people with access to information on the relationship of pesticides to breast cancer?

Because this strikes me as interesting - what we have here is kind of the "undeserving recipient" response. Let's say we see a homeless person on the street. Feeling sorry for him or her, we decide that, although we have no money to give them (or we have no wish to give them money, perhaps because we fear it will go on a purchase we do not believe is desirable, such as alcohol or heroin), we will give them the ham sandwich in our backpack, which might have a cash value of £2.50. The homeless person responds that regrettably he or she is a vegetarian, and as such this gift is useless to him/her, and restates the desire for change.

At which point, do we feel that the recipient of our charity is being ungrateful or difficult? If we had attempted to buy a magazine with that ham sandwich as a mechanism of exchange, we would have been politely rebuffed.

Now, this is comparing charities to mendicants, which is awkward but reflects certain similarities - money given to either has no immediate return, apart from perhaps a warm feelings of having given to those less fortunate (or as unfortunate, depending, but anyway). In this case, your friend was contacted by a charity seeking funding. Your friend was unwilling to provide funding, but did offer something else which in her opinion was of equal or greater value. However, the charity was not looking for that something else, so it was clearly not of equal or greater value in the eyes of the charity. Next question is, is this a reason a) to accuse the charity of being "ungrateful" or b) to suspect the charity of being more interested in fueling a bureaucracy than in helping people? I would probably say no. There may be other information not so far provided, but, as mentioned, if you are a cancer charity, say, with access to vast amounts of data and expert opinion from experts in the field of oncology, then you are probably nnot going to value highly offers of data and expert opinion from an expert in the field of organic gardening.

Back to bureaucracy - your position appears to be based on the idea that administration is useless, and therefore that charities with administrative staff are being somehow perverse in having them. This is an extension of the idea that small, local charities are best-equipped to keep their operations slim and maximise the amount of money that goes to the worthy cause. Fair enough, but a) some issues are not local issues, and so presumably cannot have purely locval solutions - a charity which uses the vast disparity in wealth and purchasing power between the developed and developing world is by definition going to need a purchasing and logistics operation, say. The United Way is, as I understand it, an umbrella covering a large number

So, at present I think your position is garbled. Teasing the strands out we have:

1) Capitalism is not a good system, and therefore any charity working wityhin capitalism is not operating within a good system - this is perfectly reasonable, but it's not the problem with charities, it is the problem with capitalism.

2) Some charities see the raising of money as a way to advance their goals. See (1), really - as long as money is needed to achieve things, charities will need money.

3) Administration is an unnecessary expense, and therefore breaks the bond of trust between donor and charity, as the donor will expect the full value of their contribution to be given directly to the needy. Personally, I don't think such a bond of trust exists - if I give 50p to somebody shaking a bucket, I know that some of that will go to defraying the cost of a bucket. Charities may be able to secure many goods and services at reduced rates or pro bono, which is good, but the need to pay for certain things like accountancy or auditing is not really the charity's fault. Likewise fundraising - see Quantum above:

Most charities spend very little on administration. The staff are paid less than in equivalent positions in other fields and often volunteer as well or do extra work for free.

Also, of course, your contention:

As these things tend to go, the larger the bureaucracy, the less efficient it is.

Is a truism, but not one supported here by any actual data. "Bureaucracy" is a good scare word, but it doesn't actually mean very much in this context. Let's call them "administrative staff". How many administrative staff does United Way, for example, employ? How much does that cost? How much more money could go direct to those in need with fewer staff, and how much would be lost through oversights by overworked administrators, for example?

4) The ham sandwich. A particular charity was not suitably appreciative of what you believed to be a valuable gift, and thus is not deserving of the kind of gift that they were looking for. Thing with this is probably that there were good reasons why the charity was not interested in that data - they already had access to equivalent data, they were focused on providing palliative care rather than activism, or they felt that the cost of your friend's contribution, in administrationm, peer review and so on would outweigh the benefits - that is, that they would have to create a new bureaucracy (if you will) to process research, rather than efficiently employing the one they already had in existence for processing monetary contributions which they then give at the other end to people with established administrative systems to process that money into (for example) research and administration.

I think your position needs attention. You have already stated that this is not a problem with the concept of charity in itself, or indeed with all charities (only the ones with problems). So, give us an example of a charity with problems (United Way, if you like), and explain to us, with specifics, how it illustrates your complaints - essentially, of overspending on administration and of inflexibility to the detriment of the work it is doing.
 
 
Persephone
13:35 / 29.12.05
1) Capitalism is not a good system, and therefore any charity working wityhin capitalism is not operating within a good system - this is perfectly reasonable, but it's not the problem with charities, it is the problem with capitalism.

I started a post about this yesterday (honest), and this was the main point. Even if you don't say that capitalism is not a good system, it is definitely the dominant system & it is a different system to charity --I think. I mean, is it. I guess I'm interested in this question more from a theoretical than practical standpoint.

Thinking about it...

A) Charities are a separate system from capitalism? Where the motive for charity is altruism, and the motive for capitalism is profit?

Or B) Charities are a mechanism of capitalism, a self-repair mechanism that still operates on the same principles of the main system?

It keeps coming to mind that all you heard about the hurricanes was, Give money. Give cash money. It seems like such an expression that capitalism is so totally dominant. I've had thoughts that the best thing I could do to support worthy causes is to maximize my time at the cash machine --you know, work wherever the money is. Get the money, and give the money. Like that would be the best way to maximize my utility.
 
 
Persephone
13:37 / 29.12.05
Cf. Bill and Melinda Gates as Time Magazine's Persons of the Year.
 
 
alas
14:59 / 29.12.05
I'm noticing, again, that there may be an unspoken US/British distinction at work in this conversation that may need some attention (or may not). The key difference, from my perspective, US charities have to do more work that would be under the government's purview in Britain, because we have so decimated any social welfare functions of the government. I'm not sure exactly what difference that makes in this conversation, but I suspect that people are kind of speaking past one another because the systems are somewhat different in subtle ways. I also suspect the lack of a genuine, government-supported social safety net may make US citizens more paranoid about their charity dollars.

I hope it's not thread-rotty to suggest that one practical thing you can do if you're trying to figure out which charities to give to, and want to give to an "efficient" one, is to use charity evaluators like these, which are focused on US Charities):

1) Charity Watch, by the American Institute of Philanthropy.
2) Charity Navigator
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:07 / 29.12.05
The key difference, from my perspective, US charities have to do more work that would be under the government's purview in Britain, because we have so decimated any social welfare functions of the government.

A good and worthwhile point. In the UK we (well, some of us, anyway) get quite agitated abut charitable donations (particularly the "good causes" fund of the National Lottery) going to things like hospital wards. because we believe that such things should be funded from general taxation, and if they are not then the government is fudging its sums.
 
 
Persephone
16:37 / 29.12.05
Doesn't that sort of give you the creeps, though? The idea of an "efficient" charity? I mean, obviously --you want a charity to be efficient, you don't want your money wasted. It just worries me when you get these thought patterns cropping up in all places. And I think that charities do try to be efficient in that very capitalist sense, squeezing the most possible value from their workers for the least possible price. (My post above was actually written from the standpoint of working for charity, compared to giving money to charity.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:54 / 29.12.05
Interesting one - I mean, possibly working for a charity is a bit like working for a political party - the pay is less than you would get at a comparative level in the private sector, because it takes into account a sort of belief offsetting - you clearly want to be doing something you believe in (charity or politics), because if the only factor affecting your decision about where to work was salary you wouldn't be working in charity or politics. The employer points out to you and to itself that the money it saves by paying you below the private sector level goes to advancing the (charitable or political) ends you seek to advance.
 
 
alas
02:39 / 30.12.05
Interestingly, "Charity Navigator" was founded by people who worked for charities. Here's a snippet from their "history" page (note that they use the word "effective" rather than "efficient"):

We knew that America needed charities, and we also knew that most of them were not only well-intentioned but well-managed. But we were insiders in the charitable world, and even we had a difficult time determining which charities were the most effective and which deserved our support. The charitable marketplace had simply become too large to navigate without some help. We feared people who were less knowledgeable about the sector than we would simply not give to organizations out of fear that they could not be positive that those organizations were trustworthy.

We knew that even the most cynical of observers would admit that the number of genuinely dishonest charities in this country was infinitesimally small, but we also knew that the misdoings of a few stained the entire industry, gathered disproportionate attention in the media, and scared away some potential givers.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:20 / 30.12.05
not-jack, I am not sure about this but have you considered that the information might be useless unless evaluated by an independent body? An organic farmer might not be considered independent where information on pesticides is being bandied around and it's ultimately possible that the charity did not have enough money to have the evidence evaluated in that way?

Is scientific information required in order to make any kind of statement about such things? Legally are charities simply allowed to use information that has not been examined absolutely? This is a point of curiosity to me as I'm really not clear on the way that information is processed, particularly for medical charities that might find themselves in alot of hot water if they make a claim that is widely unsupported.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
05:51 / 31.12.05
the arguments and questions you've thrown back at me are valid, and have made me reconsider why I brought the subject up in the first place.

I think that what I'm more opposed to than charities themselves, whether wastefully run or not, is the creation of a business market out of the ill.

such that pharmaceutical companies are among the most profitable industry. The way industries remain profitable on such a large scale is by constantly introducing new products. which means new medicines. there are a finite number of ailments that require medical treatment, so how is it possible to constantly introduce more?

certainly not by finding a cure to anything.

so, what roles do charities play in this sick facade?

that's more at the heart of my concern about the situation.

wrt to bureaucracy - each individual person working in a hierarchical administrative system will become less efficient as the size of the administration grows. The overall amount of work being done might increase, but the amount per person decreases. I didn't mean that bureaucracies weren't inefficient on small scales.

-not jack
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:13 / 31.12.05
I'm afraid I'm still unable to follow your logic here. Bit by bit..

I think that what I'm more opposed to than charities themselves, whether wastefully run or not, is the creation of a business market out of the ill.

I think the first question here is "how does this relate to charities?" You ask this yourself further down, but are you limiting your inquiry to charities working in healthcare? If so, then we can limit our enquiry, but we probably need to ask what it is about charities in healthcare that differ from charities elsewhere.

such that pharmaceutical companies are among the most profitable industry. The way industries remain profitable on such a large scale is by constantly introducing new products. which means new medicines. there are a finite number of ailments that require medical treatment, so how is it possible to constantly introduce more?

certainly not by finding a cure to anything.


OK... we've got two issues here. One is the business practice of big pharma, with reference to the way it interacts with patents. The other, I think, is the common conspiracy theory that pharmaceutical companies do not produce cures because they can make more profit selling palliatives. However, cures do exist for conditions, and drugs can be developed and sold that either act as cures, suppress symptons or achieve the same effect as previous drugs but with greater efficacy or fewer side effects. Also, other conditions become susceptible to treatment or study in different ways - it is now possible to treat and/or cure conditions, or research treatments which were previously inaccesible. As such, I'm not sure your contention is based on accurate information.

so, what roles do charities play in this sick facade?

Right now, no idea. What role do you see charities playing in it? Funding pharmaceutical research? Perpetuating the idea that pharmaceutical research is necessary?
 
 
Ganesh
12:50 / 31.12.05
I think that what I'm more opposed to than charities themselves, whether wastefully run or not, is the creation of a business market out of the ill.

such that pharmaceutical companies are among the most profitable industry. The way industries remain profitable on such a large scale is by constantly introducing new products. which means new medicines. there are a finite number of ailments that require medical treatment, so how is it possible to constantly introduce more?


Separate issue, really, but certainly one worth discussing in another thread. In my own field, for example - psychiatry - one might reasonably posit that certain diagnoses (social phobia, sexual dysfunction) and illness models (depression = 'chemical imbalance') have been aggressively facilitated (and, given its role in research, even invented) by pharmaceutical companies specifically in order to sell psychotropic drugs.

(The fact that so many of us are apparently so willing to uncritically accept these disease entities suggests it's a fruitful avenue for ongoing exploitation.)

I don't see charities as especially pivotal to this process, though. They're certainly not the biggest of big baddies here.
 
 
sleazenation
00:50 / 01.01.06
(The fact that so many of us are apparently so willing to uncritically accept these disease entities suggests it's a fruitful avenue for ongoing exploitation.)

I think that this could well feed into the concept of 'innocence' Alas mentioned in another thread about a different subject. Coupled to this is probably the concept of 'responsibility'. Unfortunately questions of to what level buying into the concept of disease becomes a means of claiming 'innocence' and avoiding 'responsibility' are probably best left to another thread....
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
01:45 / 01.01.06
However, cures do exist for conditions, and drugs can be developed and sold that either act as cures, suppress symptons or achieve the same effect as previous drugs but with greater efficacy or fewer side effects

what new cures have come out in the past hundred years?

it strikes me that there is a great focus on treating symptoms as opposed to treating illnesses. Which isn't surprising for a medical field that developed patching battle wounds together. If the leg is wounded, treat it.

sadly, same doesn't count for other ailments. The symptoms are a sign there's a problem, not necessarily the problem itself.

selling the "cure" which masks the "symptoms" is in fact selling a veil for your body's immune system's communication with you.

the cure to cancer is to stop putting toxic poisons into our food chain, for starters. The tumors are a symptom indicating that there's a problem with us ingesting the toxins we're dumping into our food chain.

you can raise money to find a cure, which is really a relief from painful symptoms.

who's working on the cure? Not anyone standing in the way of environmental cleanup.

I think the "symptoms" of charities is indicative of a greater problem (as a few people have pointed out).

we really too much on throwing money at problems to solve them. It may be used for temporary relief, but the problem persists.

going to delve back into my cave to ponder on this some more.

ta
-not jack

ps "conspiracy theory" downcries are needless dismissals of potentially revelatory pattern recognition.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:13 / 01.01.06
So, you'd say that radiotherapy and chemotherapy, for example, are not attempts to cure the cancers from which people are suffering, but rather attempts to cure the symptoms of a disease, that disease being the use of pesticides?

Um. That's fine, but it's not a diagnostic pattern I think you'll find people using very often.

Further, what does this have to do with charities? Specifically, are you saying that it is the aim of, say, cancer relief charities as a whole to ensure that people continue to get cancer, as evinced by a situation in which your friend's offer to provide some form of information about organic foods was declined? Is this the Joseph W Campbell thesis?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:11 / 02.01.06
not jack, is your response to the pharmaceutical industry based around drug patents? Because your responses seems reminiscent of the drama around generic drug companies and the distribution of HIV medication (and I would suggest you really consider that in terms of this thread rather than cancer which seems to me far more complex because of the myriad different types and contributing causes of the illnesses).
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
19:44 / 02.01.06
eh?

problem: ill-health
symptom: cancerous tumours
current solution: treating symptoms

problematic role of charities: raising funds for treating symptom
(some actually raise money to research the causes and mechanisms of cancer, as opposed to treatment. I refer to the latter).

cancer is a complex disease. I'm using environmental factors as an example of one contributing factor in its development.

Since 1851, when the first hospital dedicated to cancer treatment was opened, how much progress have we made in eliminating it, or at least lowering its incidence?

i'm not decrying the development of treatment or drugs to ease the symptoms. My point is that they don't address the cause.

What have we truly accomplished in the past 150 years, with respect to this particular affliction?

we've managed to increase the amount and varieties of toxins in our food chain with increasing frequency. We eliminated DDT, but have added roundup, gmos, and aspartame.

???
- not jack
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:22 / 02.01.06
I'm sorry but I think this thread is suffering from your inability to communicate. You think cancer is complex. That's true because cancer is a term used for a myriad number of conditions- in fact it's more like the word disease in that it describes a certain mode of attack on the body. The first cancer hospital was opened in 1851- interesting information but how that is applicable is unclear to me as you appear to be talking about research rather than treatment and research as funded, used and applied by charities.

If you don't like the way it's treated than how do you think that should be done? I understand that you want to treat the causes but what do you actually think those causes are (apart from certain chemicals in food) and how do you treat those outside of abstinence?

You're talking about a number of different types of condition, caused by a number of different factors, which researchers are still trying to understand. Moreover the cure has to be something that stops the body malfunctioning and they're still not absolutely sure why this happens in some people and not everyone. So this is something that is fundamentally not understood by people because of its complexity.

If you have a point to make I suggest that you reduce your argument down to the type of cancer you're talking about (rather than simply referring to the causes of cancer), what you feel the role of charities is in more depth and if you have something to say about the research than how you personally think it should be researched. At the moment I just don't get what you mean at all because you haven't outlined the changes, simply vaguely criticised the current treatment and research.

I understand that certain chemicals are put into our foods that shouldn't be. I just don't understand how that point fits into anything beyond that point. Pressure groups have asked the government to ban aspartame and saccharin and hydrogenated fat and oil from our foods and their response has been that there isn't enough conclusive evidence. This is only one contributory cause though.

So, if you could stop for a second, focus on one part of your argument and outline it in clear detail, taking into account the problems that scientists have with the very nature of cancer and explaining what you think they should be doing and how they should conclusively discover these causes I'm sure a large proportion of the medical and indeed civilian community would appreciate it.
 
 
Ganesh
23:23 / 02.01.06
symptom: cancerous tumours

No. A symptom is an indicator of the presence of disease perceived by the patient (and usually not outwardly visible) eg. pain, fatigue, nausea, dizziness. "Cancerous tumours" would be the disease process itself.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:53 / 02.01.06
Also... our modern way of life may make cancer indeed more common. But it existed a LONG time ago- wasn't it Hippocrates who named it? Could be wrong there, but WAY before our pesticides and GMOs, cancer was there, eating away at various people's bits. I think what you're seeing as "cause" may in fact be exacerbation.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:14 / 03.01.06
how much progress have we made in eliminating it?

And there's another thing- how do you propose to eliminate something that people have a genetic predisposition towards, is contributed to by the very vehicles that we travel in everyday and has no natural cure?

Do you regard drugs like herceptin, radiotherapy and surgical advances as having done nothing?

What kind of cancer are you talking about?
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:18 / 03.01.06
nina,

radiotherapy and medications treat the symptoms.

I've already mentioned that this is an advance in an easing of suffering, but not in curing the problem.

we could consider not driving, or pouring chlorine into the drinking water, and preserving innoculants with heavy metals, and approving toxic chemicals as food additives...

or we could continue to treat the symptoms.

no natural cure, but a very unnatural cause.

what kind of cancer? call it metastatizing, uncontrolled tumourous growths as a key symptom.

the disease? chronic toxin intake.

carbon monoxide isn't exactly metabolism-friendly.

--not jack
 
 
doozy floop
18:40 / 03.01.06
it strikes me that there is a great focus on treating symptoms as opposed to treating illnesses.
[...]
this is an advance in an easing of suffering, but not in curing the problem.




With regard to charities unable to make use of specific gifts, it's worth bearing in mind that each charitiy will have a specific charter or series of aims which have qualified it for (official) charitable status. These can be very funny things, in the UK at least, having to meet with national guidelines for what can and cannot constitute a charity, and can be restrictive: if a medical charity has been granted charitable status in order to provide palliative care, it cannot start participating in medical research on a whim.

When I say they can be funny, take this as an example. In the UK, a charity can operate in order to relieve financial hardship, but not to resolve financial hardship, i.e. it can work to alleviate poverty, but not to wipe out poverty, theoretically because the latter is an impossibility. Alternatively, in some other countries - I think Switzerland is one - the opposite is true: their charities can only aim to remove financial poverty, and not simply relieve it.

That said, I would be extremely suprised if charities engaged specifically in medical research had as their objective solely the alleviation of suffering and not the discovery of preventative measures as well. It's just something to consider when trying to offer help to or work with charities.

Your primary concern seems to be that the World of Cancer Charities is not paying sufficient attention to that which you consider to be the cause of cancer. I would suggest that a great deal of research is going on within the charitable sector - and indeed, in the private sector - to uncover as much as possible about the causes, and I'm sure they would appreciate your donations or, if you have skills that they need, your time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:41 / 03.01.06
Uh, Tenix, did you read Ganesh above on what a symptom is?

More generally, I think I see where a lot of confusion lies. When you qualified your title - "The problem with charities" with the somewhat circular "not all charities, but the ones with problems" - you meant specifically the problem with some, but not all, of the charities dedicated to cancer, specifically those who seek to fund or conduct research into palliative care for cancer sufferers rather than research into cures for cancer. However, by "cure for cancer", I think you mean "the successful promulgation of a healthy lifestyle", or something to that effect. Therefore, any charity involved with cancer which is not currently seeking to get people to eat organic, stop driving cars and so forth.

This certainly bumps up against one of the problems with charities - in order to enjoy charitable status, they have to fulfil certain requirements, as Doozy mentions above. As such, it would probably be difficult for a charity represnting itself as a cancer charity to devote all its efforts to, say, organic farming.

On another level, I think there's a flaw in your analysis. To whit: who on Earth doesn't know that healthy foods and clean air contribute to a greater chance of avoiding cancer, along with not eating too much red meat, not smoking and so on? Findings from all sorts of studies, produced by organisations charitable, private and institutional, bear this out. As such, it is possible simply that your friend was not coming in at a high enough level to make her contribution of value - since work on the link between pesticide use and breast cancer might already be being done or have been done by or for that charity at a peer-reviewed level.

So, it's a bit tricky. I'm also interested in the transactional exchange from the point of view of the charity. In the absence of further information, I'm assuming that your friend was contacted by a fundraiser, who was seeking a monetary contribution. Your friend offered instead to provide information on her specialism which she felt was relevant. That is, she wanted to complete the fundraising transaction, but did not want to provide what was being sought - money. From the fundraiser's point of view, this would not complete the transaction. Therefore, the difference is not at the first level about systematic suppression of information, but rather a dispute over whether one form of data (statistics on pesticides and breast cancer) is interechangeable in value with another form (bank details and a sum of money to extract from them). Your friend thought yes, the fundraiser thought no. Is that about right?
 
 
Quantum
13:15 / 04.01.06
Point of info here, there's a *lot* of research into cancer compared to other conditions, and the bulk of the funding goes to private research, the results of which are considered valuable information to the funders (usually megapharms). This means that there is a strong motivation NOT to share results with competitors, which leads to duplicated research and blind alleys.
Charities DO share research, in fact there are charities set up specifically to help co-ordinate charity cancer research. So there's an example of charities being very efficient/effective.

Can we have some examples of charity inefficiency? Ones with problems? I ask because a lot of apparent inefficiencies have good reasons behind them.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
15:59 / 04.01.06
true enough.

my apologies for diving into this without a clear idea of what I'm trying to flush out.

I think the stimulus for it was a report on the fate of all the money raised last year for victims of the tsunami. In trying to generalise this to a broader topic, I introduced a personal peccadillo.

egads.

one passing comment, regarding our knowledge of healthier environments = healthier people: we may know it, but what good is it doing us if we sell more cars, introduce more additives and add more poisons into the very land water and air from which we make ourselves?

(going to address this in the
health thread)

it's one thing to know that commuting by oneself in an automobile is harmful. It's quite another to stop doing it.

anyway, thank you all for your considered responses. I'm going to muse on this more thoroughly. I appreciate the feedback.

--not jack
 
 
The Natural Way
10:27 / 05.01.06
I can't remember which charity it is, but, getting back to the charities-have-specific-remits thing, at least one of the UK based cancer charities does concern itself with the causes of cancer and combatting them.
 
 
Not in the Face
15:11 / 05.01.06
In the end the question of do charities have problems and are they doing the job that they should be depends on what you perceive a charity being there to do in the first place. Add to this that fact ideas of efficiency are rather subjective.

For instance many charities that provide social-type services have an ethos of working with individual clients in depth and over time, providing a range of services that meet the various needs of the clients and tend to see these needs as inter-related. This view is often contrasted (by those charities at least) with a 'bums on seats' approach of public or private sector groups. Clients of these charities tend to have a very high cost, sometimes but not always off set by lower wages in the sector and use of volunteers. The question is whether this approach is more efficient to the maximising numbers approach?

One possible answer depends on whether the clients conditions are permanently changed for the better.

There is some evidence in the US that people seeking employment who face multiple barriers - poor literacy, bad housing, racial/sexual barriers, lack of transport, lack of confidence etc are better served by charities than private sector employment agencies because of this difference in approach. However research in the UK in care for the elderly has found no appreciable difference between charities and public or private sector care homes so it is more likely to come down to the particular economics of the sector than whether an organisation is a charity or not (although I do have some issues with the way the latter study worked)

With regards cancer charities and the causes of cancer, I think the question should be - is it the job of charities to convince people not to engage in harmful behaviour and how do they do it most efficiently? The most effective way is to lobby government to introduce/enforce public health measures and many cancer charities have political affairs staff to do just this. However if charities spent their income on large promotional campaigns would it really be a good use of money? Most people would ignore it and the charity wouldn't have the resources to continue a large scale campaign over a long term.

The biggest exception of this I can think of is the NSPCC 'Full Stop' Campaign - and that has been criticised for not really doing anything to actually stop child abuse as opposed to simply promoting the NSPCC as a worthy organisation for Joe Public to give its money too.

Another big issue in the UK is that in law charity trustees have almost absolute discretion to direct the use of charity funds to any activity they believe advances the charity's legal objects - the biggest restraint is the desires of the funders which must be followed. And so the efficiency of charities is very much constructed by the perception of the trustees.

Personally I see admin costs as a very weak indicator of effectiveness and one that can actually damage the service provided to clients. Because admin costs are seen as bad many charities have very weak 'centres' even though their individual projects are well funded in order to avoid looking as if they have high admin costs. One result is that the management, including the trustees, are often poorely supported or equipped to effectively manage the organisation. Another effect is that charities hide their admin costs within project budgets which presents a false view of the real cost of running a charity and so endangers the long term viability of the charity.

Also the issue about paying admin costs has affected issues such as sick and maternity pay, pensions, disability access and training budgets of staff all of which have been lumped under this heading by some funders and where none payment of them has a direct impact on the ability of the organisation to meet client needs.

Incidentially doozy flop the term relieve financial hardship is a holdover from the 19th basis of modern charity law and can be used to mean exactly the same as 'resolve' for charities that do intend to work towards eradicating poverty because UK charity law regards poverty as comparative - someone unable to purchase a television in a street of television owners would be considered eligible to benefit. The difference between UK and Swiss wording of relieve and resolve is probably more to do with semantics than intent but the point remains the same that there is a restriction onwhat the charity can and can't do
 
 
Not in the Face
15:21 / 05.01.06
Incidentally I should confess that my job within the charity I work for could well be considered admin costs under some interpreations of the term, as I manage a project across 7 different organisations and in theory the funder could have dealt with them directly and so my point of viewpoint is rather skewed.

For instance I have read some arguments that take the other viewpoint and argue that only entirely voluntary agencies that receive no government support should be considered charities and that everybody else, us included, should simply be considered a private company as the admin costs represent a distracting factor from the mission of the charity as, it is arguyed, charity managers will pursue the survival of their own salaries over the good of the charity.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
15:49 / 05.01.06
ultimately,

throwing money at a problem never solved anything. It is an understandable, yet unfortunate motivator.

-- not jack
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:05 / 05.01.06
Not Jack. Not in the face has just made two long and detailed posts on how charities function and where possible strengths and weaknesses lie. Any chance of a more thoughtful response to the work ze's put into those?
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:48 / 05.01.06
goodness and not in face, my apologies for kurt overgeneralisation.

a more thoughtful reply pends

-not jack
 
  

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