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Underground > Games & Gameplay >

World Cup 2006

  
  

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Jake, Colossus of Clout
17:07 / 13.07.06
... but Jackie Robinson shouldn't have had to put up with hate and racism from all quarters for years, Jake. He only had to because he lived in a sick, hateful, bigoted society, poor guy.

Couldn't agree more. I was just using him as an example of a player who didn't melt down when faced with verbal abuse.

I enjoy watching football, Jake, I just can't stand cheats and abusers. They spoil the game for me.

I think we could probably stand to define "abusers" a bit more clearly for the purposes of this discussion. Would you consider Pedro Martinez or Roger Clemens throwing brushback pitches to be abuse? Intimidation is a huge part of a pitcher's game, and I think baseball would be much the poorer without it.

What about when Mike Tyson said he was going to eat that dude's children? Would that be abuse? Because I thought it was hilarious. Tyson wasn't actually planning on frying up the guy's kids (well, I guess you never know with Tyson), he was just being an asshole for the cameras. To me, the press conference trash talk is one of the best parts of boxing. I don't remember the match, or who Tyson's opponent was, but I remember that line, because it was classic crazy Iron Mike shit.

For a final example, in the final game of the Wizards/Cavaliers NBA playoff series, Gilbert Arenas (I think it was him) was fouled at the end of the game and had to make both free throws to keep the Wizards in it. LeBron James, the Cavs star player, walked up to him, put his hand on his shoulder and said "you know you have to make these, right?" Arenas, visibly flustered, missed both shots. Was it wrong of LeBron to mess with Arenas' head in such an important situation?

I think all three of these situations are perfectly acceptable, and even good for their respective sports. In my opinion, hatespeech should be banned, but any other form of trash talking is perfectly acceptable.

Cheating, on the other hand, is always wrong. I don't know if this is an issue in Europe, but over here there is a huge furor over steroid use in baseball. I personally think that anyone who uses steroids should have their records stricken and be banned from baseball. Cheating gives an unfair advantage. Trash talk is equally available to all players as a resource.

You also seem to be under the illusion that I feel Zidane was hard done by, I don't. It's not Zidane versus Materazzi in my mind. They both did wrong. They should both be punished.

Fair enough. I'd like to know exactly what was said before fining or suspending Materazzi, though.
 
 
elene
18:40 / 13.07.06
OK Jake, I hear you. We're just totally different.
 
 
astrojax69
22:51 / 13.07.06
and jake, it was probably entirely freudian when you said:

I misquoted. When I said "mental abuse," I should have said "verbal abuse."

you really meant both, and there is really no excuse for abuse; physical, verbal or especially mental - this latter type is often the hardest to detect, has the most deleterious effects on the victim and is difficult to quantify to mete appropriate punishment.

but it is not excusable.


that given, the media doesn't seem to be in possession of the facts and i too reserve judgemet on marco until there is sufficient evidence. but i don't try him, fifa do. i trust they are investigating fully. i leave it to them. i am not hopeful of an adequate solution.


sport (especially football, imho) can and should be wonderful to participate in and watch for its drama and poise and skill without it requiring underhanded tactics involving abuse. why shouldn't we want it to be so?

(and using milke tyson in an argument for some level of abuse with grace in sport is hysterical!)
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
03:55 / 14.07.06
and jake, it was probably entirely freudian when you said:

I misquoted. When I said "mental abuse," I should have said "verbal abuse."

you really meant both, and there is really no excuse for abuse; physical, verbal or especially mental - this latter type is often the hardest to detect, has the most deleterious effects on the victim and is difficult to quantify to mete appropriate punishment.

Actually, it wasn't Freudian at all. I merely corrected myself because I was trying to use the exact same terms as elene, who said:

I hope you never have to put up with a constant stream of physical and verbal abuse from someone

I was just being meticulous, because I was responding to an exact quote.

(and using milke tyson in an argument for some level of abuse with grace in sport is hysterical!)

I never said anything about Tyson being graceful in his verbal tirades. The only person I attached the word "grace" to was Jackie Robinson, as someone who endured horrible abuses with grace and class.

When I referenced Tyson, it was for an entirely different purpose. I was using Tyson, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens and LeBron James as examples, citing particular actions that might be considered abuse in their respective sports. If you look at my post again, you will see that I was responding to a completely different statement than I was with Robinson. Elene said:

... but Jackie Robinson shouldn't have had to put up with hate and racism from all quarters for years, Jake. He only had to because he lived in a sick, hateful, bigoted society, poor guy.

I then said:

Couldn't agree more. I was just using him as an example of a player who didn't melt down when faced with verbal abuse.

And this is what I had to say about Tyson:

What about when Mike Tyson said he was going to eat that dude's children? Would that be abuse? Because I thought it was hilarious. Tyson wasn't actually planning on frying up the guy's kids (well, I guess you never know with Tyson), he was just being an asshole for the cameras. To me, the press conference trash talk is one of the best parts of boxing. I don't remember the match, or who Tyson's opponent was, but I remember that line, because it was classic crazy Iron Mike shit.

I called him crazy, but never mentioned anything about him being graceful.
 
 
Peach Pie
15:01 / 14.07.06

Apparently Materazzi's defence ran along the lines of "I did not insult his mother. Mothers are sacred" and "i don't even know what an islamist t*rr*rist is". he certainly sounds like a bit of a wanker.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
17:05 / 14.07.06
Hmm, sounds like MAterazzi has seen Southpark:

Teacher: Kyle, concentrate!!!
Cartman: Maybe he should be sent to a concentration camp.

When Cartman realized he had lost a bet by making a Jew joke he then said something to the effect of:

"Kyle, Kyle, I just found out that during World War Two the Nazis put Jews in places they called Concetration Camps. Oh man, I am so embarassed, I didn't know that, I just thought you could go to a camp to help with your memory and stuff"
 
 
Peach Pie
13:16 / 15.07.06

Yes, that hits the spot pretty perfectly. Incidentally, your post was the second of read today where a cartman quote was employed on a message board to demonstrate a serious social ill.

i thinks it was milan kundera who said we value children not because they are the future but because mankind is moving in the direction of infancy. or responding to a spoilt, overgrown brat by giving him a nice shiny trophy.
 
 
astrojax69
00:32 / 16.07.06
a freudian slip is precisely one where you mis-call something and then correct it, but the initial 'mistake' shows up a deeper truth in the psyche.

anyway, i think your whole thesis, jake, was about grace, so to use tyson at all - i understand you call him crazy and i agree he is certifiable - i still maintain limits the impact of your overall point...

italy still won the world cup. although a french dude is trying to have the game replayed, through a court decision. and serie a is wide open this year. mebbe parma can get among the winners!! go parma....
 
  

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