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Return of the New Universe

 
  

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sleazenation
13:19 / 10.12.05
Because a sizable chunk of people keep buying it - kind of like a sizable chunk of people will keep buying Anne Rice's work (although it will be interesting to see if she maintains her readership after her reported decision to write more Christian-centred texts...)

John Byrne used to talk about the Byrne 20,000 (not sure what the exact number was). this was supposed to be the number of fans that followed Byrne from book to book. Back in the day, putting Byrne on a comic was apparently enough to boost its sales quite significantly. I'm guessing that Ellis, like Gaiman, Bendis, Millar, Morrison and a fair few others have their core group of fans that follow them arround...
 
 
Jack Fear
15:12 / 10.12.05
50,000, IIRC. Byrne's "faithful fifty."

It's probably down to 20,000 these days, come to think of it.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
16:49 / 10.12.05
... or 50.

I just got reminded by this last night by the comicbookresources coverage. Ugh. It's 1999 all over again.

"Let Warren fix it," was the cry heard as he developed the 'Counter-X' line with very talented artists and writers in most cases led bythe grimy claw of Ellis through the first stortyline. In each series, if I recall, we got a cigarette smoking dude who was 'above it all', etc etc etc and what amounted to a ragtag band of mutants more at home in an 80's US TV series than comics. The only one I remember liking as an idea was X-Man. They sold poorly and in two years it was like it had never happened.

In any case, the promotional material for Next Wave looks like the covers of two expensive writing journals cut together with comic characters inserted... standing. Mark my words but anytime comic characters are standing... I'm talking about action her comic characters... it's a bad sign.

My money is on lots of talking, action taking place without the heroes involved and the only time their legs separate to posture or run is after 12 issues of set up. Ellis is the king of the empty comic book.

If it weren't for the excellent art, his Planetary and Authority books would be useless.

Will it sell? I don't know. I'm not convinced he has the star power that he used to. I mean, he clammored up the walls about his pop comics which got outrageous press (even my mom knew about it!) and the minis slooooowly came out over 3 years... to very little acclaim. Then he shows up with his empty hands in the air to 'help out' his friend Millar with Ultimate Fantastic Four and essentially writes the most market-loving max-series since Secret Wars... which I've never heard anyone reading.

He's more of a failure than a success if you ask me, but I'm no Marvel Editorial Board. Maybe they know more than I do... but I doubt it.
 
 
Triplets
16:54 / 10.12.05
*brr* Did anyone else just cringe really badly?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
16:59 / 10.12.05
My super power is a little out of whack.

My physics are totally nuts... but only for six hours.

In case you're interested in the origin of my spite, I speak from bitter experience because I bought all his comics, loved them, hated them, etc. And he's a lousy lover.

More importantly, I was also involved with an anthology project that LOVED Ellis' style and edited my action story into two guys talking in a bar about some Caraaaaaaazy shot that happened off-panel. It's lazy writing. Mix My Dinner With Andre with The Dark Phoenix Saga and it's not much fun... though it'd be terribly funny to see someone try it.

You can cringe better than that.
 
 
eddie thirteen
20:09 / 10.12.05
"But there's a lot more that speaks to, if you like, the superhuman condition. Melding that with the notion that suddenly the laws of
physics can go and stay slightly nuts... In one six-hour session, I generated a bunch of notes about how and why this could happen, with some ideas from some old abandoned projects of mine -- "

SHUT UP, ELLIS!
 
 
This Sunday
01:19 / 11.12.05
I'd like to be bitter and cynical about this, but... ah, hell. Ellis' is in Tsui Hark Mode, sure, but 'Planetary' and 'The Authority' being completely useless without the art? The art definitely completes the sell, but, honestly, prose descriptions of ninety percent of the early Authority arcs... the obsessive fanboyish connections established cross-genre and supra-character(s)... "We're here to hit you," and similar lines...? Even in prose, these things might put a bit of a warm jolt up my spine and blister blue flowers at the base of my skull.
Is it all: Best Thing Ever? Does it have to be? I always wondered why the fact that the White Event hit everywhere on Earth, didn't seem to freak more people out. I mean, something of that scale, it's got to fuck with your head. I'm interested to see someone explore that.
Or is it John Byrne and Chuck Austen's retreating from the active, noticeable comics scene, leaving a void of critical displeasure that must be filled with chainsmoking cynics in rumpled suits?
Are we to be similarly put off when Morrison inserts higherdimensional fractalsquids into each new work, in one form of progress or another? When Larry Hama goes out of his way to non-white the cast each book he's on? Pete Milligan putting the shiny plastic veneer on all the characters while spelling out the STRONG TRUTHS in the undercurrents? Or when El Spielbergio the Magnificent has another heart-warming father-comes-round moment in his latest cinematic cashcow?
When does the writer/artist have to stop catering to the tropes and things they enjoy immensely, or are familiar to them in life, and write deliberately for an audience whether they're happy with - or excited by - it?
Did Nabokov need to stop inserting dirty-minded children into his novels? Was there entirely too much cosmic vagina of death underthesea and abovethestars, in Lovecraft's everything?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:36 / 11.12.05
Hey, you know what would be cool? If they remade Casablanca with Sean Penn and Damon Wayans, and set it in Los Angeles!
 
 
eddie thirteen
01:43 / 11.12.05
Nah. The Ellis hate definitely predates the retreat of Byrne and Austen. And I'll actually go so far as to defend John Byrne as someone who once displayed talent; crazy as he gets, my dislike for Byrne and his work is tempered by the cringing feeling that I'm watching a former great pee on himself and spit baby food at concerned visiting relatives in his ugly dotage. Ellis never contributed much of anything to begin with.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:44 / 11.12.05
Byrne was never that good.
 
 
eddie thirteen
01:50 / 11.12.05
Okay, but he at least didn't used to ink with his dick.
 
 
John Octave
02:05 / 11.12.05
Question: Why doesn't Ellis just go write novels instead?

I'm not asking this in some sort of "Why don't you fuck off, Ellis, and leave my precious comic books alone?" way, and I absolutely adore Planetary. But if he loves hard sci-fi novels and dislikes superheroes' stranglehold on the comics marketplace, why hasn't he thrown up his hands and frustration and quit the industry to write some hard sci-fi novels of his own? Wouldn't this seem to suit his style better? It seems like his long "let's sit down and talk about how physics work in fantastical situations" digressions would be less intrusive if they took up 10 pages in a 400-page novel, rather than all 22 pages of a 22-page monthly comic.

So why does he stay in comics? Is he particularly idealistic about the potential of the sequential-art medium?
 
 
This Sunday
03:08 / 11.12.05
I'm not going to voice ex cathedra for Crom, Ellis, or Jane down the street, but personally? Personally, I love the comics form, the possibilities and strengths inherent in the medium. If someone here doesn't love - or at least really enjoy - the medium, I wonder why they're posting here. If someone works in the medium and takes no pleasure from it, I'd have to wonder why they were working in it. Ellis has made clear many times how thrilled he is with a comic he had a hand in, how he laughed at the gags in his new series, or how he finally got a nine-panel grid to work for him. You can't get a nine-panel grid to work for you in prose. Those gun ballets don't work in a non-visual medium, so it's film, comics, or television. Comics offer a lot more in the way of budgeted representation, than either film or TV. Besides, nobody can reach off panel/screen in a movie, the way they can on the page. Panel to panel synchronicities, of the kind seen in Transmet, in Ghost in the Shell and The Invisibles, don't have the same reflexive impact on a screen of constantly moving and changing elements, because it's harder to go back and forth in a film. Comics beg an interactivity. And, often, they're faster and cheaper to produce than any other medium, for the narrative breadth.
What I don't get is why anyone ever brings up - in regards to any artist, writer, whomever - that they (a) love/hate superheroes, or that they (b) like/work in other mediums, and so should: (c) leave comics completely alone. Because that a+b=c only in some strange world where six-hour physics have been altered irrevocably.
Whether it's John Byrne or Grant Morrison - and both have had the demand/question put to them and their work - I just don't get the "Why in hell don't they just get the fuck out of comics, altogether?" as a concept. I really don't care for Alex Ross or Chuck Dixon, but I don't believe they aren't doing comics, or doing comics right. That they don't enjoy doing comics. Haven't a right, to do comics.
Ugh. I am bitter and reactionary and I'm probably digging my own grave, here, but really.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:14 / 11.12.05
Adrian Tomine has no interest in superheroes: why doesn't he get the fuck out of comics? Charles Burns can fuck off too. And Art Spiegelman too. Don't get me fucking started.

And all those Japanese cats, doing their little stories about samurai and card games and tennis and cookery and and gangsters and, like, relationships and stuff—please. They obviously hate comics. Well, comics as I define comics. So why do they bother?

Everybody knows that comics = superheroes.
Everybody knows that comics are for kids.

What the hell is wrong with Moebius, Jodorowsky, Jason Lutes, Kazuo Koike, Brian Azzarello, Neil Gaiman, Brian Wood, Chyna Clugston-Major, Seth, or Harvey Pekar? Did they not get the memo? I mean, hello?
 
 
eddie thirteen
14:30 / 11.12.05
Uh...except that I don't think anyone is saying that Warren Ellis should get out of comics because he hates superheroes. What I do think is being said is that maybe this hater of superheroes doth protest too much, as he keeps writing comics about them -- what's more, the same comics about them -- over and over and over. And, if he genuinely feels that his immense talent is abused by an industry that will only allow him to support his family *and* remain a paid subscriber to Suicide Girls if he writes those terrible things that are so far beneath him, perhaps he should take said immense talent to a medium that is more welcoming to his mindblowing genius.
 
 
John Octave
16:55 / 11.12.05
Um, yeah. Perhaps it was...unclear? My post wasn't saying "Warren Ellis, and others like him who have little-to-no interest in superheroes, doesn't have the RIGHT to write comic books." It's "I wonder why Warren Ellis, as a single specific and individual case, continues to write comics when, based on interviews and online columns he has written, it seems the industry frustrates him so. Is he particularly idealistic about the potential of the sequential-art medium?"

DecDay's response about the pleasure Ellis has expressed over his working nine-panel grid, etc, would seem to answer my actual posed and bolded question, removed of the offense taken to an imagined attack on non-superhero writers, so thanks for that. Yes, John Octave, Warren Ellis does particularly enjoy the storytelling possibilities the comics medium, just like all those other very nice artists and writers.

Also, Art Spiegelman has no interest in superheroes, but he's never written Iron Man, has he?
 
 
Jack Fear
17:03 / 11.12.05
What if he did?
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
17:31 / 11.12.05
Ellis loves superheroes, he just won't say it in public.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:49 / 11.12.05
That's a nifty bit of mind-reading, there, Hector. What's his favorite color and his mother's maiden name?
 
 
tickspeak
18:05 / 11.12.05
Taupe.

Interestingly, that's the answer to BOTH questions.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
18:10 / 11.12.05
Nah, I think he's right, actually.

AND Ellis loves the Micronauts. I mean, I had heard NOTHING about the series/toy franchise in years before Ellis brought it up in a rant: "Comic companies ask the readers what do you want and you say: 'Micronauts.' Fucking idiots." (or words to that effect.

Years later... Micronauts back in print.

He's a secret agent, I swear.

The Ellis I'm through with is the super vocal shit who yells to the mountains about what 'needs to be done' in comics and is so out of touch that he ends up contributing to what he has gone through such pains to define as 'part of the problem.' -Ultimate Nightmare/Fantastic Four/Iron Man... you know super-heroes.

In his defense, the series Global Frequency fit his ideals perfectly and for most people was succesful. It's a more stripped down approach to his Planetary scheme with short stories and a more diverse cast that can actually get involved in the stories where for the most part, the Planetary crew are outside of them. But I'm not interested in soiling anyone's enjoyment of the series, it's just my two cents.

Anyhow, has anyone heard anything else specific about his new series?
 
 
John Octave
18:20 / 11.12.05
What if he did?

I guess it would mess up this little chart I've made.

Art Spiegelman:
Has no interest in superheroes -> Doesn't write superhero comics

Warren Ellis:
Often claims to actively dislike superheroes -> Frequently writes superhero comics

The counterargument is that Ellis actually does have an interest in the idea of the "superhuman" (as he was on about in the interview), but just dislikes the restrictions and/or conventions of mainstream superheroes. Which is why writing Iron Man and Ultimate Fantastic Four seems to be such an odd fit for him.
 
 
eddie thirteen
20:02 / 11.12.05
But it's kind of a shit argument. What exactly would make "writing about the superhuman" different from "writing about superheroes?" In a book about "the superhuman," there's -- what? -- no crimefighting, no costumes, but superpowers, swearing and titties? There's nothing inherently wrong with any of that, but it's not exactly revolutionary, and it's also something in which the comics market has a demonstrable interest. (Supreme Power leaps immediately to mind, and -- while also not quite the most refreshing concept ever to hit comics -- it is produced by the very same publisher that just won't let Warren be Warren, and is also significantly better than anything he's written since...ever.)

Really, though, I think I-don't-want-to-write-about-superheroes-I-want-to-write-about-the-superHUMAN is just code speech for the love that dare not speak its name. But of course owning up to an enthusiasm for this kind of material -- or worse yet, owning up to an inability to write anything else -- or, for that matter, owning up to the fact that adding a silly pop science concept to a pre-existing idea makes it neither hard science fiction, nor one's own original concept -- would shatter the backbone, Shadowhawk-stylee, of the Ellis cult of personality. Because Ellis is a rebel, and he never ever ever does what he should. Without that, where would he be?
 
 
matsya
20:32 / 11.12.05
Nice wrap-up of the New Universe, Jack F. What I think is interesting, in this conversation that somehow once again got down to bagging out Ellis and Byrne - so unusual for barbelith - is that it was Byrne who was brought in to "save" the New Universe, and who was likely responsible for a lot of the superheroising of the NU that was the final nail in an already shut coffin.

For my money, I loved Star Brand - never got into the other stuff, though. It was my introduction to John Romita Jr. Though it kind of loses focus after issue 10 (11 being Byrne's first issue). I just recently bought 1-9 at a dusty old bookstore on the outskirts of town for a buck each and it was the best less-than-ten-bucks I spent that week.

And I'm looking forward to the coming months, when discussion about the New Universe will pick up. I've always wanted to know more about the behind-the-scenes of the NU. Shooter's a fascinating character, no? He tried a similar "what if superheroes were real" thing with the first few issues of his Harbinger comic, too.

Re: the not-creating-anything-new criticism of DC and Marvel, Steve Gerber's blog linked a while back to a really good article by Don Simpson, creator of Megaton Man, in which Simpson posits that DC and Marvel have been in a holding pattern re: creating new characters since the 80s, as a direct result of the creator's rights disputes that were typified by Steve Gerber's disputes with Marvel over ownership of Howard the Duck. I'm paraphrasing - it's been a while since I read the article - but since that time, Simpson says, comic creators have been reluctant to work hard on creating new ideas for the big 2 when they won't be adequately financially compensated for the work, though they are happy to write stories for existing characters. This leaves Marvel and DC with a stable of old ideas to service and very little in the way of new ideas.

It's not all black and white like that - new characters do seem to be being created every now and then, like the Gravity character that Marvel did a miniseries about recently, but anecdotal evidence does seem to bear out for Simpson's argument.

I'd link to the bugger, but Simpson's blog doesn't seem to exist anymore.
 
 
Jack Fear
00:50 / 12.12.05
Interesting Shooter interview from the Comic Book Resources archives: The NU bits are about 2/3 down the page, but here's what I thought was the relevant portion conceptually...

I said, you know, the original Marvel Universe -- Stan's conception of it -- instead of doing something Superman or Green Lantern, he was really trying to do science fiction. The Fantastic Four didn't have costumes in the first issue. He was trying to be down to Earth.

The problem is Stan doesn't have any science background and the minute you start working with Kirby, you're going to get Atlantis under the ocean, the Blue Area on the Moon, a repulsor ray. It's like Kirby does fantasy, period. He wasn't a science guy either. I said, so Stan's concept was why don't we do this more realistic? ... [W]hat if we went back to that moment in time where Stan said, let's do this more realistic. We have some science background. Let's do a science fiction comic book universe, where things are based more on real science, try to make it more real. We don't have Atlantis under the ocean and the Blue Area of the Moon.


Then gulp in horror as the whole thing goes down the crapper...

Right after that, this is about the time the company had been taken private and put on the block to be sold. I'm called up to Galton's office and he says "What's your budget for the New Universe?" I said, "$120,000." He said, "How much of it have you spent?" I said, "Not much, we just got started really." He said, "We have to cut your budget." I said, "What? We have to create these titles out of thin air." He said, "You'll have to do it with $80,000."

[Then] I get a call and he says "We're cutting your budget to $40,000." I said, "What?"

The next day, he calls up and said "How much have you spent?" I said, "About $20,000." He said, "Don't spend any more."


Which explains why some of the work was, er, subpar...

One of the things in my business plan [for the New Universe books] is that we were going to guarantee royalties or pay higher rates in order to get the big name artists to do this stuff. .... All that stuff got scrubbed. I was told, you can pay people their page rate, that's it. ... So basically, if you check the New Universe, the artists you'll find were people who couldn't get any other work.

Ouch.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
03:06 / 12.12.05
...jesus christ.

I fucking dreamed this place up. Like...3 years ago. Right up to the goddamned super-talisman that a let the bearer alter reality, including a fucked up old man giving it to a younger guy then trying to get it back. And an event that gave everyone superpowers.

Jesus fucking christ.

::sighs and shakes his head:: I swear to god, there are no original ideas anymore. Damn near everything's been done.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
10:24 / 12.12.05
Jack, others have put it better than me, but anyway: a writer whose work is sometimes the most interesting when in the superhero/metahuman/scifihero subgenre [and whose career doesn't depend on it, but to which he keeps coming back] has got to love that thing.

or at least like it only enough to make out, occasionally.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:16 / 12.12.05
I thought it wasn't that Ellis didn't like superheroes, it was that he didn't like doing superheroes he didn't own, and talked about how his fellow writers taking on stuff like JLA and Ultimates was a bad thing... until he started doing it too. Am I wrong?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:37 / 12.12.05
For what it's worth, imho Ellis is great when he's doing the stuff he loves. Orbiter was wonderful, Ocean was also lovely. Bits of Stormwatch too...
 
 
FinderWolf
16:48 / 12.12.05
Newsarama mentions that when it first came out, the New Universe titles sold as well or slightly better than Marvel's Ultimate titles now. That was shocking to me...I didn't know the NU books did good numbers back in the day.

also, Newsarama mentions this...

>> Most recently, Marvel’s Exiles series has re-fired interest in the New Universe, with its reality-hopping band of heroes landing in the NU at a point prior to the Black Event, a time when the heroes were still heroing, and the future looked brighter than it did after The Pitt.

I didn't know this either. I've never read Exiles, though.

As for Ellis' take on the NU, I just hope it'll be fun and entertaining, maybe even a bit inspired.
 
 
Benny the Ball
17:04 / 12.12.05
I hope he incorperates the Nth Man, the ultimate ninja.
 
 
eddie thirteen
21:17 / 12.12.05
The Newsarama numbers may be a little misleading -- comics in general back then sold many, many more copies than they do today.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
21:33 / 12.12.05
Really, though, I think I-don't-want-to-write-about-superheroes-I-want-to-write-about-the-superHUMAN is just code speech for the love that dare not speak its name.

I think there might be a bit of truth to that, however, I think one of the many problems that arises in discussing Ellis and Superheroes is that people confuse Superheroes with Superhuman or Posthuman themes. It seems to me that what Ellis is really interested in is transhumanisim/posthumanisim and it's just that currently, the best way to explore all of that and make money is do to a superhero book.

But superhero stories and posthuman stories are not necessarily the same thing... there's just a large audience that can't tell the difference. A large audience that looks at a story about posthumanity that may not have the tropes and markings of a superhero book and shuns it as "a bad superhero book".

I know it frustrates me and I love superheroes.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
23:21 / 12.12.05
CBR News spoke to Editor Mark Paniccia about the event and the various books that are part of it.

other creator teams revealed there, and some covers too. cool, but... everything looks just the same. =/
 
 
The Falcon
23:45 / 12.12.05
Hmm, Pulido on Starbrand. Might swing it. I was exposed to the New Universe in backups in Thundercats, Transformers and Spider-Man & Zoids. Only ever read Spitfire and the aforementioned Starbrand, which i like quite lot. Funny relationships; what was it is his gf kept calling him - duck? Weird; anyway, quite dug that.
 
  

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